martin wrote:

Marv wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Paying 27 million per year for Brunson doesn’t make great sense if we grab Mitchell. There’s only 1 basketball.

The big decision the Knicks need to make are within. We won a lot of games two years ago once we had a healthy Rose at back pg with the defensive wings. Insert grimes to replicate bullock. We have a lot of depth and burgeoning talent—- please simply refrain from any more moves. I’m happy with as is

i’m feeling that brother. we made a big addition. our youngsters are bringing a year of maturity and development to the table. Let’s hold on to the assets, see what thibs can make happen with it and then reevaluate

Same. I’m hoping that Knicks FO have already made this decision.

Let’s be frank though: Knicks FO has to at least show tremendous effort for pursuits with the likes of Mitchell and guys like Jayden Ivey, especially to get the perception through media that they are doing everything they can to build up, even if they don’t land their targets, and sometimes it lands an alternate path

We have a good team that slumped last year. Our younger players improving plus Brunson and Hartebstein is a great deal of improvement. I’m dissapointed we didn’t take a big guard or forward in the draft for additional defense Eason/ willians but I feel real good overall. Mitchell is a chucker. It’s gonna blow up chemistry. We have a big 3 w barter Randle abs Brunson with great role players abs depth. Once you add in the chucker and remove size and depth — we’re gonna wish we didn’t.

Philc1 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Im speaking of Randle's game from 2 seasons ago. He was more than just "dumping of the ball". He was definitely playing at a faster pace. Leading the break.

Game is a bit easier with no fans in the stands looking over your shoulder.

It’s not a coincidence Randle’s best year as a pro ever was when the arenas were all empty. And then once they started letting fans back in during the playoffs his game fell apart

It’s not a coincidence. Really now. How the hell can you be certain of something all but impossible to quantify? Never mind that Randle kicked ass through the end of that same season WHEN fans were in fact in the seats.

You’re trying to prove that Randle is a lost cause by conjuring up some of the most anecdotal evidence possible. It’s not a fact but you’re certain it is. Amazing really.

blkexec wrote:

doomed wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Im speaking of Randle's game from 2 seasons ago. He was more than just "dumping of the ball". He was definitely playing at a faster pace. Leading the break.

Game is a bit easier with no fans in the stands looking over your shoulder.

It’s not a coincidence Randle’s best year as a pro ever was when the arenas were all empty. And then once they started letting fans back in during the playoffs his game fell apart

It’s not a coincidence. Really now. How the hell can you be certain of something all but impossible to quantify? Never mind that Randle kicked ass through the end of that same season WHEN fans were in fact in the seats.

You’re trying to prove that Randle is a lost cause by conjuring up some of the most anecdotal evidence possible. It’s not a fact but you’re certain it is. Amazing really.

I think thumbs down Randle showed how fragile he is mentally. Whether is related to off court issue or whatever the case. I believe Randle also showed you how contract years is the best motivation for any player. The key is can he use something other than. A contract year to stay motivated and get back to all star Randle. Or is he comfortable just playing his best just to get a new contract, then cost until the next new contract? I think this might be a huge test for Randle to see if he’s motivated or not to return to all star form. We shall see. He already has a coach in thibs who believes on him and an organization willing to pay him. Now he has to shine or RJ and Brunson will pass him and devalue his next contract extension. Inquiring minds want to know 🤔.

Which Randle will show up next season?
1. Thumbs down Randle or
2. All Star Randle

Fans tend to way overblow everything......as if none of us has had a bad day/week/month and athletes are supposed to be robots or part of our NBA2K championship roster. There really no way to know for sure how fragile Randle is mentally. Also - wouldn't Randle's contract year technically have been 2021-22? He signed the extension after 2020-21 season.

Instead of focusing on All Star 37 minutes per game high usage Randle - I think for the team to be successful we need more efficient, less minutes team concept Randle.

Instead of surmising what might be going on in Randle's head how about we focus on what we do know.... and FYI - I am by no means a Randle fanboy.....

- The guy is pretty much always available to play and appears to take care of his body.
- He is strong as hell
- He has a 7' Wingspan and can be effective on D if he does not tire / take plays off
- He averages close to 20-10 in his sleep - which is not really that easy to do in the NBA
- He is a good finisher
- He's been ball dominant which IMO has made the team slower on offense - however the Knicks have not had a successful dominant starting PG since he's been here.
- His proclivity for the mid-range game has made him inefficient

In my estimation, Thib's job this year with regards to Randle will be to convince him that LESS can mean MORE. Less minutes and less ball dominant usage can mean more energy and intensity on D. It will also put the ball in Brunson's hands which may allow for less Randle mid-range and more finishes at the rim with higher efficiency. This might also mean more wins. Randle was at 35+ minutes per game last season - if that is reduced to 30 mpg (similar to his mpg on the Pelicans).....that would also mean Obi raised to ~23mpg with a different look and energy on the second unit - which I also feel would be beneficial (on average over the entire season).

foosballnick wrote:

blkexec wrote:

doomed wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Im speaking of Randle's game from 2 seasons ago. He was more than just "dumping of the ball". He was definitely playing at a faster pace. Leading the break.

Game is a bit easier with no fans in the stands looking over your shoulder.

It’s not a coincidence Randle’s best year as a pro ever was when the arenas were all empty. And then once they started letting fans back in during the playoffs his game fell apart

It’s not a coincidence. Really now. How the hell can you be certain of something all but impossible to quantify? Never mind that Randle kicked ass through the end of that same season WHEN fans were in fact in the seats.

You’re trying to prove that Randle is a lost cause by conjuring up some of the most anecdotal evidence possible. It’s not a fact but you’re certain it is. Amazing really.

I think thumbs down Randle showed how fragile he is mentally. Whether is related to off court issue or whatever the case. I believe Randle also showed you how contract years is the best motivation for any player. The key is can he use something other than. A contract year to stay motivated and get back to all star Randle. Or is he comfortable just playing his best just to get a new contract, then cost until the next new contract? I think this might be a huge test for Randle to see if he’s motivated or not to return to all star form. We shall see. He already has a coach in thibs who believes on him and an organization willing to pay him. Now he has to shine or RJ and Brunson will pass him and devalue his next contract extension. Inquiring minds want to know 🤔.

Which Randle will show up next season?
1. Thumbs down Randle or
2. All Star Randle

Fans tend to way overblow everything......as if none of us has had a bad day/week/month and athletes are supposed to be robots or part of our NBA2K championship roster. There really no way to know for sure how fragile Randle is mentally. Also - wouldn't Randle's contract year technically have been 2021-22? He signed the extension after 2020-21 season.

Instead of focusing on All Star 37 minutes per game high usage Randle - I think for the team to be successful we need more efficient, less minutes team concept Randle.

Instead of surmising what might be going on in Randle's head how about we focus on what we do know.... and FYI - I am by no means a Randle fanboy.....

- The guy is pretty much always available to play and appears to take care of his body.
- He is strong as hell
- He has a 7' Wingspan and can be effective on D if he does not tire / take plays off
- He averages close to 20-10 in his sleep - which is not really that easy to do in the NBA
- He is a good finisher
- He's been ball dominant which IMO has made the team slower on offense - however the Knicks have not had a successful dominant starting PG since he's been here.
- His proclivity for the mid-range game has made him inefficient

In my estimation, Thib's job this year with regards to Randle will be to convince him that LESS can mean MORE. Less minutes and less ball dominant usage can mean more energy and intensity on D. It will also put the ball in Brunson's hands which may allow for less Randle mid-range and more finishes at the rim with higher efficiency. This might also mean more wins. Randle was at 35+ minutes per game last season - if that is reduced to 30 mpg (similar to his mpg on the Pelicans).....that would also mean Obi raised to ~23mpg with a different look and energy on the second unit - which I also feel would be beneficial (on average over the entire season).

100% right
I think it’s a good approach to tell Randle that we’d like him to play 28-32 min and find better shots with a higher consistent effort on d. If he avg 16-8-4 53% we’re gonna be a 3-4 seed

blkexec wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

blkexec wrote:

doomed wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Im speaking of Randle's game from 2 seasons ago. He was more than just "dumping of the ball". He was definitely playing at a faster pace. Leading the break.

Game is a bit easier with no fans in the stands looking over your shoulder.

It’s not a coincidence Randle’s best year as a pro ever was when the arenas were all empty. And then once they started letting fans back in during the playoffs his game fell apart

It’s not a coincidence. Really now. How the hell can you be certain of something all but impossible to quantify? Never mind that Randle kicked ass through the end of that same season WHEN fans were in fact in the seats.

You’re trying to prove that Randle is a lost cause by conjuring up some of the most anecdotal evidence possible. It’s not a fact but you’re certain it is. Amazing really.

I think thumbs down Randle showed how fragile he is mentally. Whether is related to off court issue or whatever the case. I believe Randle also showed you how contract years is the best motivation for any player. The key is can he use something other than. A contract year to stay motivated and get back to all star Randle. Or is he comfortable just playing his best just to get a new contract, then cost until the next new contract? I think this might be a huge test for Randle to see if he’s motivated or not to return to all star form. We shall see. He already has a coach in thibs who believes on him and an organization willing to pay him. Now he has to shine or RJ and Brunson will pass him and devalue his next contract extension. Inquiring minds want to know 🤔.

Which Randle will show up next season?
1. Thumbs down Randle or
2. All Star Randle

Fans tend to way overblow everything......as if none of us has had a bad day/week/month and athletes are supposed to be robots or part of our NBA2K championship roster. There really no way to know for sure how fragile Randle is mentally. Also - wouldn't Randle's contract year technically have been 2021-22? He signed the extension after 2020-21 season.

Instead of focusing on All Star 37 minutes per game high usage Randle - I think for the team to be successful we need more efficient, less minutes team concept Randle.

Instead of surmising what might be going on in Randle's head how about we focus on what we do know.... and FYI - I am by no means a Randle fanboy.....

- The guy is pretty much always available to play and appears to take care of his body.
- He is strong as hell
- He has a 7' Wingspan and can be effective on D if he does not tire / take plays off
- He averages close to 20-10 in his sleep - which is not really that easy to do in the NBA
- He is a good finisher
- He's been ball dominant which IMO has made the team slower on offense - however the Knicks have not had a successful dominant starting PG since he's been here.
- His proclivity for the mid-range game has made him inefficient

In my estimation, Thib's job this year with regards to Randle will be to convince him that LESS can mean MORE. Less minutes and less ball dominant usage can mean more energy and intensity on D. It will also put the ball in Brunson's hands which may allow for less Randle mid-range and more finishes at the rim with higher efficiency. This might also mean more wins. Randle was at 35+ minutes per game last season - if that is reduced to 30 mpg (similar to his mpg on the Pelicans).....that would also mean Obi raised to ~23mpg with a different look and energy on the second unit - which I also feel would be beneficial (on average over the entire season).

100% right
I think it’s a good approach to tell Randle that we’d like him to play 28-32 min and find better shots with a higher consistent effort on d. If he avg 16-8-4 53% we’re gonna be a 3-4 seed

foosball.....I definitely agree with your response on his mentals (focus on the good which I forgot how much good Randle has) and how fans over blown that thumbs down gesture (I agree). But NY fans (especially the bing bong home crowd floor seat fans) are not changing and will never let Randle forget his gesture. Sure it's easy for us to say just get over it, while sitting behind a computer. But NYers will be NYers. And NYers will never forget that gesture. The question is can Randle handle that level of attention from the home crowd and during visiting games? Fans will use whatever perceived weakness a player shows against them.

Also trying to change an old dog and teach him new tricks? Good luck with that one. Randle is more affective when he can dribble the ball and get into a rhythm, while breaking his man down and hitting those baseline fadeaways. Same with D.Mitch, Brunson, RJ, EF, etc....Thats the problem I see with this team. We have too many players who are mostly affective with the ball, and less affective or impactful without the ball. My question (and I'm sure thats why the FO would like to trade Randle).....Why pay a guy top dollar, then say if only you play like a middle of the road player, we will look better and win more games. Every player can not handle a reduced roll.

Randle not having that, especially if we start losing, Randle will start complaining and showing out like he did last season in spurts. And Randle is not like Grimes. Grimes for example, is still affective without the ball. Randle so far, has not prove to be that type. Can he change, sure. Will he change, is a different story. Thibs can only do so much. And personally I think Thibs and this FO has done a lot to cultivate or cuddle Randle. Todays NBA guys understand that their value is in the numbers. Their large contracts that they use to feed their kids, are based on the numbers. Now if the knicks are winning, without Randle dominating the ball, I believe he's a gonna come mid season. Unless we are Golden State and Randle playing team ball helps us when a chip, then sure if can work. But we not winning a chip this season and we will have stretchs of losing games. Which Randle will show up then? Based on history, we all know what "thumbs down" Randle looks like. From a GM perspective, I just don't see a point in having a max guy come off the bench in limited minutes. Same with EF. Thats a lot of salary off the bench, which (in my opinion) why both of these guys are currently on the trading block.

But good convo and great reply to my original post foosball.

Couple of thoughts...

NY Fans love a winner. Yankees fans hated ARod, then loved him when he won the MVP, then hated him again, then loved him when they won the WS in 2009 etc. Its pretty simple for me - win and the fans will forget the finger and love Randle again. Lose and they will pile on.

Agree on stat compiling related to players / contracts - Randle however has his money for now and time till his next contract year. Team's job it to convince him that leading a winning team and playing with better advanced stats has become increasingly important in measuring the value of players, contracts and rankings.

I agree that in regards to Randle's ball dominance it will be difficult to get the cat back in the bag, but no one said a coach's job was easy. Randle was paid high - but not nearly top dollar in the scheme of the NBA salary hierarchy. He's a very good player - but not a transcendent one - nor is he paid like a transcendent player. I'm also agreed that as other players emerge - if he is not able to make the move to take a slight step back at times for the good of the team - it is time to move him off the team. I think much of fans dismay with his extreme ISO ball-stopping comes from end of period and end of game holds for the last shot which often would be an ugly mid-range jumper or turnaround. The Knicks lost about 12 games last year within 5 points or OT - that they might have won with better end of game conversion. I'm hoping that a good PG will go a long way to helping with end of period/game ball stagnation.

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martin wrote:

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Thoughts?