Posted by BlueSeats:
Killa, first off you gotta decide if racial comedy is acceptable or not. Then you look to see if a person was being comedic or not.
I asked racial comedy is acceptable many times without an answer. Was "All In The Family" useful or destructive? It was intended to be racially constructive.
Anybody watch Bill Mahr's show on HBO? he makes a lot of gay jokes, but behind them he is a champion of gay rights.
If I bumped into you on the street tomorrow I'd hope if I said to you "whatup ya nappy headed ho" you'd know it was a joke in reference to this thread, and even if it stung a bit you'd know I was coming from a playful place.
So context is important, I think we all agree. The context of Imus' comments were his show that is based on vulgar humor. They weren't funny, they went too far, they were misdirected, they were hurtful, and he shouldn't have said them. I agree with all of that. And I'm glad that blacks have the power to exert their will and get him fired for them.
With all that said, his comments were different than Gibson's and Richards. Gibson's came in a drunken run in with cops, and Richards were not part of his rroutine, I'm not even sure he pretended to be funny. He lost control and left the stage. I heard the clip and I don't recall people finding it funny. There may have been some initial uneasy laughter, but I think it died down when people realized what they were witnessing. Gibson and Richards were spitting real venom while Imus was doing his routine.
I agree with everything here, but white people were laughing when he began his tirade and some white guys came up to him after the show and said "we're with you".
It's okay if you find Imus' routine tiresome and want him off the air, but recognize it for the routine that it is. it's shock-jock radio and he's harsh on everyone, even his guests.
But here's the deal. We have to get our heads around whether these racist and violent themes in or culture are destructive or not. is Marilyn Manson and white culture "devil worship" music bad for society? Are shows like the Sopranos, with their negative depiction of italian americans? Are violent movies like "The Money Train," "Die Hard" and zillions of others? Are racial comedians like Chapelle? Are foul mouthed rappers?
If they are, it's something all races need to work on together. If they're not, then we have to take the bad with the good. Some of us don't want to give up our pleasures, and I for one like black comedy and the Sopranos. How much are we willing to give up to clean things up?
What doesn't make sense is to not be able to talk about it. Blacks can't take a position that this is their culture and it doesn't concern others, because it does. What if in 10 years rap is dead and is replaced by white devil worship music? If black are offended that their 8 year olds are hooked on the music and dressing up like vampires and singing about sacrificing lambs and I don't know what, will it be appropriate for whites to tell you it's none of your business?
We're in this culture together, it's okay to talk about it without getting positional and defensive.
On these points I'd say this:
Bill Mahr's show is among the best on television, I love it. Bill Mahr uses jokes to inform, to point out irony, etc. and his intent isnt to demean. Same with Archie Bunker. He is shown as a bigot who is pretty dumb. The show makes fun of him basically. I love it, its great use of stereotypes and bigotry to teach, the show is art.
Sopranos is just a show about some gangsters, who happen to be Italian. I dont think theres anything wrong with that. At the same time that we have tony soprano, we have Ray Romano of Everbody Loves Raymond. If Every Italian on TV were a mobster or even most, I would say thats a huge problem, but thats not the case.
I have a problem with Shock-Jock radio in general. I would limit it to cable radio if I could. It is a tool of people who don't have talent to be funny. It takes talent to always be funny, but ANYBODY can always be shocking, demeaning and vulgar,
Don Imus' intent was to be funny, but funny in a way that was deliberately shocking and offensive. He meant to be offensive, thats his thing, except this time he offended too many people, the media ran with it, there was public outrage, and now he's off of the public airwaves.
My position is very very clear, I don't think its appropriate for anyone to use language that demeans black people, but I do not think all offenses are equal. Because of Black folks unique history in this country we have come to a point where black people have coopted this language and given it another meaning. Philosophically I am not a fan of this particular development but I have participated in it and I understand it as something wholly different (in the case of the N word and some of the other words) in intent and meaning than its historical use. This doesn't make it right or appropriate, its just a reality that it happens, and it is different in intent. As I said before, its bad when black folks do it, but it is worse when non-blacks do it. Thats my position. Cry foul double-standard or whatever, thats how I feel and I'd say its how the overwhelming majority of the black community feels.
Given this nation's history of systematic discrimination and inequality, I find white people's cries about double standards laughable. I say that to say, white people in general are not really concerned about double standards, unless they are the losers in the equation. Racial issues are hot button issues, so its easy to get white folks riled up about what is essentially a meaningless issue to them. This whole language thing is real and has an impact on the black community which is mainly negative at this point. For white people this is a trivial, meaningless thing.
Lastly, the double standard with language and the N word is about power and history. Historically, the N word was used by a powerful group to exert power over and demean another less powerful group. The word taken out of that context loses most, though not all, of its meaning. The word bandied about among and between memebers of this less powerful group, is not equal in intent or effect as it is between dominant and minority groups. Similarly, the use of words like cracker, whitebread, etc., while inappropriate, do not hold the same power as the N word and others, because of group power dynamics and historical context. That may be unclear, or you may disagree but that is an attempt at an explanation for
why I say the words are bad when blacks say them and worse when non-blacks, especially whites say them.
What's the connection to what you quoted me saying to what your response was?
4/20/2007 10:09 AM