[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

O.T. War in the middle East...
Author Thread
simrud
Posts: 23392
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/13/2003
Member: #474
USA
9/18/2006  10:29 AM
Everything is propoganda. Truth is nobody will ever use nukes, unless pushed to the brink of extinction. Its just if Iran does get nukes, get used to sweating bullets and getting ready to roll to the cemetary every time there is an Arab-Israeli conflict, as it would mean possible nuclear war every time.

Its not even about who is right and who is wrong. Israel already has nukes, the question is do you want its arch-enemy to have them too?
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
AUTOADVERT
colorfl1
Posts: 20781
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/6/2004
Member: #731
Canada
9/18/2006  8:53 PM
Posted by Rich:

That's propaganda.

Iran is years away from having nukes.

If you would have read the article, you would have actually learned that the Israeli foriegn minister is explaining that Iran is months away from mastering the technology of enrichment... once they procure this know how, any military attack would only est them back a bit, but they will still have the know how to reconstitute and share with rogue entities...

This is a serious concern for any nation within current missile range of this Islamic state, I am glad you can afford to be cynicle from the safety of your geographic location...
Iran is only years away from developing the missile technology necessary to reach you.('');
colorfl1
Posts: 20781
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/6/2004
Member: #731
Canada
9/18/2006  8:55 PM
The Pope must die, says Muslim
18.09.06
Add your view

A notorious Muslim extremist told a demonstration in London yesterday that the Pope should face execution.
Anjem Choudary said those who insulted Islam would be "subject to capital punishment".
Should the Pope have apologised for his remarks? Vote here
His remarks came during a protest outside Westminster Cathedral on a day that worldwide anger among Muslim hardliners towards Pope Benedict XVI appeared to deepen.
The pontiff yesterday apologised for causing offence during a lecture last week. Quoting a medieval emperor, his words were taken to mean that he called the prophet Mohammed "evil and inhuman".
He insisted he was "deeply sorry" but his humbling words did not go far enough to silence all his critics or quell the violence and anger he has triggered.
A nun was shot dead in Somalia by Islamic gunmen and churches came under attack in Palestine.
Choudary's appeal for the death of Pope Benedict was the second time he has been linked with apparent incitement to murder within a year.
The 39-year-old lawyer organised
demonstrations against the publication of cartoons of Mohammed in February in Denmark. Protesters carried placards declaring "Behead Those Who Insult Islam".
Yesterday he said: "The Muslims take their religion very seriously and non-Muslims must appreciate that and that must also understand that there may be serious consequences if you insult Islam and the prophet.
"Whoever insults the message of Mohammed is going to be subject to capital punishment."
He added: "I am here have a peaceful demonstration. But there may be people in Italy or other parts of the world who would carry that out.
"I think that warning needs to be understood by all people who want to insult Islam and want to insult the prophet of Islam."
As well as placards attacking the Pope such as "Pope go to Hell", his followers outside the country's principal Roman Catholic church also waved slogans aimed at offending the sentiments of Christians such as "Jesus is the slave of Allah".
A Scotland Yard spokesman said of his comments: "We have had no complaints about this. There were around 100 people at the demonstration. It passed off peacefully and there were no arrests."
Larger Islamic groups in Britain said they accepted the Pope's apology. Inayat Bunglawala of the Muslim Council of Britain said: "The Vatican has moved quickly to deal with the hurt and we accept that.
"It was something that should never have happened - words of that nature were always likely to cause dismay - and we believe some of the Pope's advisers may have been at fault over his speech."
Yesterday's sermon by the Pope was the first time a pontiff has publicly said sorry.
He said he regretted Muslim reaction to his speech and stressed that the quotation did not reflect his personal opinion. Anger and violence - including attacks on seven churches in the West Bank and Gaza - have characterised one of the biggest international crises involving the Vatican in decades.
The Pope appeared determined to move quickly to try to defuse the anger but the fury of many radicals was unabated last night and there were fears for his safety.
Iraqi jihadists issued a video of a scimitar slicing a cross in two, intercut with images of Benedict and the burning Twin Towers.
The website run in the name of the Mujahedeen Army, used by extremist groups who have claimed responsibility for attacks in Iraq, was addressed to "You dog of Rome" and threatened to "shake your thrones and break your crosses in your home".
In a reference to suicide bombing, it said: "We swear to God to send you people who adore death as much as you adore life."
The threat of violence against Catholics and Christians was emphasised by the murder of an Italian nun in Somalia. Sister Leonella, 66, was shot as she walked from the children's hospital where she worked to her house in Mogadishu, a city recently taken over by an Islamic government.
A Vatican spokesman said he feared her death was "the fruit of violence and irrationality arising from the current situation".
Father Frederico Lombardi said he hoped it was an isolated event. "We are worried about this wave of hatred and hope it doesn't have any grave consequences for the Church around the world," he said.
The murder suggested that extremists are determined to use the Pope's embarrassment as an excuse for violence.
In Turkey, state minister Mehmet Aydin said the Pope seemed to be saying he was sorry for the outrage but not necessarily for his remarks.
"You either have to say this, 'I'm sorry' in a proper way or not say it at all," he told reporters in Istanbul.
There were fierce denunciations of the pontiff from Iran. The English-language Tehran Times called his lecture in Bavaria last week "code words for a new crusade".
The powerful cleric Ahmad Khatami told theological students in the holy city of Qom: The "Pope should fall on his knees in front of a senior Muslim cleric and try to understand Islam."
But the Turkish government signalled it was content and that the Pope's visit to the country in November can go ahead.
In his sermon yesterday at the Papal summer residence of Castel Gandolfo outside Rome, Benedict spoke amid strengthened security.
He said: "I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg, which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims.
"These in fact were a quotation from a medieval text, which do not in any way express my personal thought. I hope this serves to appease hearts and to clarify the true meaning of my address."
No other Pope is thought to have made such an apology.
Rich
Posts: 27410
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 12/30/2003
Member: #511
USA
9/18/2006  11:37 PM
Posted by colorfl1:
Posted by Rich:

That's propaganda.

Iran is years away from having nukes.

If you would have read the article, you would have actually learned that the Israeli foriegn minister is explaining that Iran is months away from mastering the technology of enrichment... once they procure this know how, any military attack would only est them back a bit, but they will still have the know how to reconstitute and share with rogue entities...

This is a serious concern for any nation within current missile range of this Islamic state, I am glad you can afford to be cynicle from the safety of your geographic location...
Iran is only years away from developing the missile technology necessary to reach you.('');

I read it. I don't believe it.
colorfl1
Posts: 20781
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/6/2004
Member: #731
Canada
9/18/2006  11:47 PM
I think you better do some research... the key here is not when Iran will develop the capacity to send it to the US...
the key is when Iran will gain the knowhow to master and refine the process of inrichment.

That knowhow and experience is far more easy to export than the actual bomb... Once Iran masters this stage... any attack will be futile as they will be able to reconstitute their program without the need to spend years refining their methodology.
Rich
Posts: 27410
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 12/30/2003
Member: #511
USA
9/18/2006  11:56 PM
Posted by colorfl1:

I think you better do some research... the key here is not when Iran will develop the capacity to send it to the US...
the key is when Iran will gain the knowhow to master and refine the process of inrichment.

That knowhow and experience is far more easy to export than the actual bomb... Once Iran masters this stage... any attack will be futile as they will be able to reconstitute their program without the need to spend years refining their methodology.

I don't believe anyone who was even tangentially connected to any interest that advanced the lies that got us into the disasterous war in Iraq.



colorfl1
Posts: 20781
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/6/2004
Member: #731
Canada
9/19/2006  3:32 PM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by colorfl1:

I think you better do some research... the key here is not when Iran will develop the capacity to send it to the US...
the key is when Iran will gain the knowhow to master and refine the process of inrichment.

That knowhow and experience is far more easy to export than the actual bomb... Once Iran masters this stage... any attack will be futile as they will be able to reconstitute their program without the need to spend years refining their methodology.

I don't believe anyone who was even tangentially connected to any interest that advanced the lies that got us into the disasterous war in Iraq.

You are not being fairminded about this issue and you are letting your personal political biases obscure the pending threat to the safety of American allies in a highly volotile region of strategic import.
Your position will only lead to a world where a hostile Iranian regime will enjoy equal stature as a free democratic nation... it is just shameful.
colorfl1
Posts: 20781
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/6/2004
Member: #731
Canada
9/19/2006  4:33 PM
war stories
Mind Games
Are we going to attack Iran?
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Monday, Sept. 18, 2006, at 6:15 PM ET

Are we about to attack Iran? That's the impression conveyed by Time magazine's latest cover story. A "prepare to deploy" order has been sent out to U.S. Navy submarines, an Aegis-class cruiser, two minesweepers, and two mine-hunting ships. The chief of naval operations, the nation's top admiral, has ordered a fresh look at contingency plans for blockading Iran's oil ports.

Michael Duffy, who wrote the story, tempers his scoop with prudent caveats. The order called on the crews to be ready to deploy by Oct. 1, not to go ahead and actually deploy. And, as he notes, "The U.S. military routinely makes plans for scores of scenarios, the vast majority of which will never be put into practice." As one Pentagon official tells him, "Planners always plan."

And yet, Duffy writes, the two orders, coupled with the mounting tension over Iran's nuclear program, "would seem to suggest that a much discussed—but until now largely theoretical—prospect has become real: that the U.S. may be preparing for war with Iran."

Even that sentence is hardly definitive ("would seem to suggest … may be preparing for war"). [Emphasis added.] Still, something is happening, we don't quite know what it is—and that may be the intention.

I have no idea who Duffy's sources are, but there are at least two possibilities: The Bush administration really is gearing up for war, and some dissenting officers want to sound the alarm and rouse opposition. Or the administration wants to make the Iranians think an attack is brewing in order to pressure them into a diplomatic solution.

The second scenario seems the saner of the two. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the more likely, but let's roll it out.

If the Iranians are open to a deal that involves suspending their enrichment of uranium (as U.N. Security Council Resolution 1696 demands), it will take a combination of sticks and carrots to coax them into doing so. President Bush and several European leaders have put a package of carrots on the table, but the sticks have gone limp. The Security Council had agreed to impose sanctions if Iran was still enriching uranium by Aug. 31. The deadline passed; the enrichment continued. But key players on the council—especially Russia, which has major investments in Iran, and China, which is heavily dependent on Iran's oil—stepped back from the enforcement clause, announcing they would veto sanctions as long as negotiations were still possible. In other words, they were saying: Forget about sanctions.

So, the Iranians are sitting pretty. Whatever deal they're offered in exchange for halting enrichment, they can always hold out for a better deal still—and they can hold out for as long as they want, knowing that defiance carries no penalty.

But this calculation changes if the Iranians believe—if they see tangible signs—that George W. Bush is getting set to attack them. This is a classic gambit of "coercive diplomacy." The question is whether the Iranians a) believe it; and b) alter their behavior as a result.

Richard Nixon tried a version of this gambit on the North Vietnamese. He put out the word that he was so crazy, he'd nuke Hanoi if Ho Chi Minh didn't come to the peace table. (The plan was dubbed "the madman theory.") Ho didn't believe it, even though Nixon did drop practically everything short of nuclear bombs.

Ho Chi Minh had been fighting a brutal colonial war for over 20 years at that point, first against the French, then against the Americans. His cadres were battle-hardened and loyal, his leadership secure. Would Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and the mullahs believe Bush's gambit, if that's what it is? We know little about the status of Iran's regime—not even about who's really in charge or the depth of support (at top governmental levels, much less among the population) for Ahmadinejad's stormy rhetoric on the "right" to enrich uranium.

Still, if Bush is looking for sticks to balance carrots, threatening to attack Iran is the only potent stick he's got.

There is a danger to playing this game. Once you switch on a plan to mobilize for war, it's hard to switch it off—or, at the very least, it's easy to let it keep flowing.

This leads to a third possibility: that the Bush administration is trying to pressure the Iranians and really preparing to attack. The two are not mutually exclusive, especially since various factions within the administration are split on the issue. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice seems genuinely to be doing what secretaries of state tend to do—seek a diplomatic solution. Vice President Dick Cheney seems to be doing what he tends to do—heighten the confrontation.

Faced with internecine conflicts of this sort, President Bush has a striking tendency to avoid making a decision and to let the factions fight it out. It's possible, in other words, that the administration is playing both approaches—mobilizing as a tool of diplomatic pressure and mobilizing as an act of impending warfare—not as a coordinated strategy but as parallel actions, each of which will follow its inexorable course.

Once the weapons are in place, the airstrikes wouldn't follow automatically; the president would have to give the order. But if the attack is ready to go, and if the Iranians are still thumbing their noses, would this president call it off and start over? It's best not to face the situation to begin with. An attack, however tempting, would be a huge mistake, for several reasons.

The Iranians learned their lesson from Israel's 1981 lightning strike against Iraq's nuclear reactor. They've dispersed their nuclear facilities and buried some of them deep underground. According to the Time story, Pentagon officials have identified 1,500 "aim points"—that is, 1,500 distinct targets—in Iran's nuclear complex. Hitting them all, or even most of them, would require hundreds, if not thousands, of sorties. Mistakes would be made; casualties would be unavoidable, perhaps considerable.

More than that, the Iranian people—who, by all accounts, hate their government and like much about the United States—would regard the attack as an act of terror, a violation of sovereignty, a far more destructive replay of the nightmare of 1953, when the CIA helped overthrow the democratic government of Mohammad Mossadegh and installed the shah. Even if the attack somehow unseated the present regime, the new one might be no less anti-American, no less intent on acquiring nuclear weapons—an ambition that the attack would set back by only a few years in any case.

And, of course, there are the possible side effects: the confirmation, in the eyes of the Muslim world, that the United States is hell-bent on a crusade; the consequent surge in Islamist terrorism and subduing of Muslim moderates; and the further alienation of U.S. allies throughout the Western world.

In an interview published in the same issue of Time, Scott MacLeod asks Ahmadinejad: "How far will Iran go in defying Western demands? Will you wait until you are attacked and your nuclear installations are destroyed?"

Ahmadinejad replies: "Do you think the U.S. administration would be so irrational?"

MacLeod shoots back: "You tell me."

Ahmadinejad answers: "I hope that is not the case. I said that we need logic. We do not need attacks."

There are all sorts of logic, including the logic that leads to war. Bush and Ahmadinejad, who share a boastful confidence in their sense of destiny, seem on a collision course in the logic of highway chicken—the game where two drivers speed their cars toward each other, head-on, late at night. The winner is the one who doesn't veer off the road. If both drivers get nervous and veer off, it's a tie. If they both keep driving straight on, pedal to the metal, certain of victory, opposed on moral principle to backing down, the outcome is mutual catastrophe. And in this case, we're all sitting in those cars.

Fred Kaplan writes the "War Stories" column for Slate. He can be reached at war_stories@hotmail.com.

Article URL: http://www.slate.com/id/2149889/
Copyright 2006 Washingtonpost.Newsweek Interactive Co. LLC
Rich
Posts: 27410
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 12/30/2003
Member: #511
USA
9/20/2006  12:43 AM
Posted by colorfl1:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by colorfl1:

I think you better do some research... the key here is not when Iran will develop the capacity to send it to the US...
the key is when Iran will gain the knowhow to master and refine the process of inrichment.

That knowhow and experience is far more easy to export than the actual bomb... Once Iran masters this stage... any attack will be futile as they will be able to reconstitute their program without the need to spend years refining their methodology.

I don't believe anyone who was even tangentially connected to any interest that advanced the lies that got us into the disasterous war in Iraq.

You are not being fairminded about this issue and you are letting your personal political biases obscure the pending threat to the safety of American allies in a highly volotile region of strategic import.
Your position will only lead to a world where a hostile Iranian regime will enjoy equal stature as a free democratic nation... it is just shameful.

The "pending thread" is at least five years away according to unbiased experts. That leaves plenty of time to directly negotiate with Iran to get an accurate read on the contours of a potential solution.

What's "shameful" is that you believe the propaganda that you are being fed from the same group of neo-cons that made Iran stronger by starting that moronic civil war in Iraq.

What you seem unwilling to grasp is that there is no effective military solution for dealing with Iran given how that stupid Iraq war has decimated are military readiness.

Smell the coffee.
colorfl1
Posts: 20781
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/6/2004
Member: #731
Canada
9/20/2006  2:59 PM
Again and again, you have misrepresented the view of experts.. declaring the Iranian regime will not have a nuclear threat for 5 years... you misrepresent the truth, as experts only said that Iran will not have a nuclear capability to threaten the US for at least 5 years...

They are 2 different issues... as Iran will not have the capacity to efficiently deliver a weapon to the US for years to come...

I am concerned for US allies in that region... they do not have the luxury of time... and what you lable as "propaganda" by the Israeli foriegn minister, makes absolute sense to anyone who has bothered to investigate what goes into the process of refining weapons grade uranium...

It is clear taht you are dismissing a real threat just becuase you are not within range to be threatened by it... if you lived in that region your tune would change.
Rich
Posts: 27410
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 12/30/2003
Member: #511
USA
9/20/2006  9:19 PM
No, that's not what they said.

Think whatever you want, but dont pretend that you have a monopoly on the truth.
colorfl1
Posts: 20781
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/6/2004
Member: #731
Canada
9/20/2006  10:29 PM

Sep 20, 9:28 PM EDT
Israel Calls Iran Its Greatest Threat

By NICK WADHAMS
Associated Press Writer



AP Photo/JULIE JACOBSON

World Video



Advertisement




UNITED NATIONS (AP) -- The Israeli foreign minister on Wednesday warned that Iranian leaders pose the biggest threat to the world's values because they "speak proudly" of their wish to destroy Israel and pursue weapons to achieve that objective.

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told the annual U.N. General Assembly session that the international community must stand up against Iran, which she claimed is pursuing the weapons to destroy Israel, a reference to its suspect nuclear program.

"There is no greater challenge to our values than that posed by the leaders of Iran," Livni said. "They deny and mock the Holocaust. They speak proudly and openly of their desire to wipe Israel off the map. And now, by their actions, they pursue the weapons to achieve this objective, to imperil the region and to threaten the world."

She said Iran's support of the Islamic militant group Hezbollah in south Lebanon showed the threat it poses to the region. The world must ensure that it enforces the U.N. Security Council resolution that ended more than a month of fighting between Israel and Hezbollah, Livni said.





"There is no place for such a regime in the family of nations," she said.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has said in the past he wants to wipe Israel off the map and dismissed the Holocaust as a myth. In his own speech to the General Assembly on Tuesday, Ahmadinejad said Israel was created by driving millions of people from territory that was rightfully theirs, something he called "a great tragedy with hardly a precedent in history."

He also harshly criticized Israel's policies, saying the country was a source of insecurity in the Middle East that was "waging war and spilling blood and impeding the progress of regional countries."

While Livni spoke, a lone Iranian diplomat sat in the back row of the section of six seats reserved for the Islamic republic in the General Assembly hall. After her speech ended, the diplomat moved up to the front row to listen to the following official, from Belgium.


Latest News
Israel Calls Iran Its Greatest Threat
2 Children of Herzl Buried in Israel

Israel Buries Zionism Founder's Children

Israel: Pullout Unlikely Before Weekend

Israeli Troops Raid Nablus Bank

Palestinians Fire 2 Rockets at Israel Town

Israel Urged to Give More Info on Bombs

Tel Aviv Police Unsure if Blast Occurred



Buy AP Photo Reprints






Livni struck a more conciliatory tone toward the Palestinians, saying the two did not necessarily have to remain at odds and the only way to resolve their conflict was at the "bilateral negotiating table."

"We have no illusions about the difficulties before us - we must face them and not ignore them," she said.

Livni met with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas at the U.N. a day before the General Assembly session began, and both described the meeting as positive. In her speech, she reiterated their desire to reopen a serious dialogue, including with the creation of a permanent channel "to pursue ways to advance together."

On the sidelines of the summit on Wednesday, President Bush called Abbas a "man of courage" for trying to revive Mideast peace talks despite a continued political stalemate with Hamas militants. Abbas has been weakened since January when Hamas, which seeks the destruction of Israel, won the Palestinian elections.

Prospects for a return to active peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians have looked dim this year, partly because the political upheaval in both governments kept leaders' attention focused inward.

Israel has new leadership too as Ariel Sharon remains incapacitated after his sudden massive stroke on Jan. 4. The new prime minister, Ehud Olmert, is on the defensive at home because of widespread dissatisfaction with the conduct and outcome of Israel's summer war against Hezbollah.

© 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. Learn more about our Privacy Policy.
colorfl1
Posts: 20781
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/6/2004
Member: #731
Canada
9/20/2006  10:36 PM
Posted by Rich:

No, that's not what they said.

Think whatever you want, but dont pretend that you have a monopoly on the truth.

I don't see Israel calling for Iran to be wiped of the map... I don't see India calling for Pakastan to be wiped off the map... I don't see S. Korea calling for N. Korea to be wiped off the map...

What about this threat of wiping another nation off the map do you not understand?!?
You lend moral equivilance to a regime that admits trying to rearrange the world order for the arrival of "the hidden Imam" so that all non-Muslims could be forced to convert or die by the sword...

This is your prospect for world security??? Get off your couch man, and open your eyes... who in this world will muster the courage to confront this facist regime of Iran???
Rich
Posts: 27410
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 12/30/2003
Member: #511
USA
9/21/2006  2:02 AM
Posted by colorfl1:
Posted by Rich:

No, that's not what they said.

Think whatever you want, but dont pretend that you have a monopoly on the truth.

I don't see Israel calling for Iran to be wiped of the map... I don't see India calling for Pakastan to be wiped off the map... I don't see S. Korea calling for N. Korea to be wiped off the map...

What about this threat of wiping another nation off the map do you not understand?!?
You lend moral equivilance to a regime that admits trying to rearrange the world order for the arrival of "the hidden Imam" so that all non-Muslims could be forced to convert or die by the sword...

This is your prospect for world security??? Get off your couch man, and open your eyes... who in this world will muster the courage to confront this facist regime of Iran???

You keep bringng up strawman arguments, probably because the facts are so inconvenient to your case.

There are only two points to consider:

1) No one knows where all of Iran's nuclear development sites are.

2) Consequently, they can't be removed by air power; it would require a massive amount of ground troops to do the job, and because of the stupid war in Iraq, we don't have them (unless we reinstitute the draft, but Bush won't do that, and you know it).

Get off your high horse, and confront reality.

Unless we're prepared to nuke Iran (and maybe we are), we need a broad coalition with our European allies to invade. That wiill require the time to employ the kind of diplomacy that Bush was unwilling to use for the Iraq war, but as his father demonstrated, it's doable if the gov't isn't run by immoral morons.

I'm willing to invade Iran if and when we have a president who has the moral courage to do it right ONCE DIPLOMACY HAS FAILED. Since the threat posed is nowhere near imminent, we can wait until this scoundrel is out of office.

In the meantime, please cease the supercilious hysteria. It doesn't comport with the facts on the ground.
GoNyGoNyGo
Posts: 23559
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/29/2003
Member: #411
USA
9/21/2006  10:06 AM
Europe is doing nothing to confront Islam. They are cowering in fear, trying to negotiate. How you negotiate when someone starts with "convert to Islam or die", I am not sure. It does not work.

When the world realizes this maybe then, things will change.

Yes, destroying the facilities would only be a temporary fix. However, even though the technology is there, you still need the resources and the resources can be controlled.

If someone fools you once the shame is on them. If they keep doing it the shame is on you.

How many times do we have to see a nun murdered, an innocents head chopped off, before we realize that this is real?

Keeping your head in the sand, will not make it go away. This has been going on alot longer than 5.5 AB (after Bush). The battles will continue until their is clear victory. I think we all know what that means.
colorfl1
Posts: 20781
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/6/2004
Member: #731
Canada
9/22/2006  4:34 PM
Posted by Rich:
Posted by colorfl1:
Posted by Rich:

No, that's not what they said.

Think whatever you want, but dont pretend that you have a monopoly on the truth.

I don't see Israel calling for Iran to be wiped of the map... I don't see India calling for Pakastan to be wiped off the map... I don't see S. Korea calling for N. Korea to be wiped off the map...

What about this threat of wiping another nation off the map do you not understand?!?
You lend moral equivilance to a regime that admits trying to rearrange the world order for the arrival of "the hidden Imam" so that all non-Muslims could be forced to convert or die by the sword...

This is your prospect for world security??? Get off your couch man, and open your eyes... who in this world will muster the courage to confront this facist regime of Iran???

You keep bringng up strawman arguments, probably because the facts are so inconvenient to your case.

There are only two points to consider:

1) No one knows where all of Iran's nuclear development sites are.

2) Consequently, they can't be removed by air power; it would require a massive amount of ground troops to do the job, and because of the stupid war in Iraq, we don't have them (unless we reinstitute the draft, but Bush won't do that, and you know it).

Get off your high horse, and confront reality.

Unless we're prepared to nuke Iran (and maybe we are), we need a broad coalition with our European allies to invade. That wiill require the time to employ the kind of diplomacy that Bush was unwilling to use for the Iraq war, but as his father demonstrated, it's doable if the gov't isn't run by immoral morons.

I'm willing to invade Iran if and when we have a president who has the moral courage to do it right ONCE DIPLOMACY HAS FAILED. Since the threat posed is nowhere near imminent, we can wait until this scoundrel is out of office.

In the meantime, please cease the supercilious hysteria. It doesn't comport with the facts on the ground.

So essentially you belive in a nuclear strike on Iranian enrichment strikes when diplomatic efforts prove futile...
So I guess you are hoping that the Iranian regime reconsiders the the gift laden package presented to them, which they scoffed at..

P.s. My arguements have been succinct, direct and honest... I did not feel that you were conveying accurately the expert assessments of the Nuclear threat rto Iran's neighbours...
Rich
Posts: 27410
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 12/30/2003
Member: #511
USA
9/22/2006  5:38 PM
Posted by colorfl1:
Posted by Rich:
Posted by colorfl1:
Posted by Rich:

No, that's not what they said.

Think whatever you want, but dont pretend that you have a monopoly on the truth.

I don't see Israel calling for Iran to be wiped of the map... I don't see India calling for Pakastan to be wiped off the map... I don't see S. Korea calling for N. Korea to be wiped off the map...

What about this threat of wiping another nation off the map do you not understand?!?
You lend moral equivilance to a regime that admits trying to rearrange the world order for the arrival of "the hidden Imam" so that all non-Muslims could be forced to convert or die by the sword...

This is your prospect for world security??? Get off your couch man, and open your eyes... who in this world will muster the courage to confront this facist regime of Iran???

You keep bringng up strawman arguments, probably because the facts are so inconvenient to your case.

There are only two points to consider:

1) No one knows where all of Iran's nuclear development sites are.

2) Consequently, they can't be removed by air power; it would require a massive amount of ground troops to do the job, and because of the stupid war in Iraq, we don't have them (unless we reinstitute the draft, but Bush won't do that, and you know it).

Get off your high horse, and confront reality.

Unless we're prepared to nuke Iran (and maybe we are), we need a broad coalition with our European allies to invade. That wiill require the time to employ the kind of diplomacy that Bush was unwilling to use for the Iraq war, but as his father demonstrated, it's doable if the gov't isn't run by immoral morons.

I'm willing to invade Iran if and when we have a president who has the moral courage to do it right ONCE DIPLOMACY HAS FAILED. Since the threat posed is nowhere near imminent, we can wait until this scoundrel is out of office.

In the meantime, please cease the supercilious hysteria. It doesn't comport with the facts on the ground.

So essentially you belive in a nuclear strike on Iranian enrichment strikes when diplomatic efforts prove futile...
So I guess you are hoping that the Iranian regime reconsiders the the gift laden package presented to them, which they scoffed at..

P.s. My arguements have been succinct, direct and honest... I did not feel that you were conveying accurately the expert assessments of the Nuclear threat rto Iran's neighbours...

Uh no, I was merely referencing this post by Matthew Yglesias:

http://www.matthewyglesias.com/archives/2006/09/war_clouds_plus_worst_idea_eve/
At this point, I think I need to bring up what one might call the Craziest Goddamn Thing I've Heard In a Long Time. This story came to me last week from an anonymous individual who I would say is in a position to know about such things. According to this person, the DOD has (naturally) been doing some analysis on airstrikes against Iran. The upshot of the analysis was that conventional bombardment would degrade the Iranian nuclear program by about 50 percent. By contrast, if the arsenal included small nuclear weapons, we could get up to about 80 percent destroying. In response to this, persons inside the Office of the Vice President took the view that we could use the nukes -- in other words, launch an unprovoked nuclear first strike against Iran -- and then simply deny that we'd done so. Detectable radiation in the area of the bombed sites would be attributed to the fact that they were, after all, nuclear facilities we'd just hit.

Now I rather doubt that's going to happen. Typically, Bush dials down the crazy factor a notch or two relative to what comes out of the OVP. Nevertheless, it's a sobering reminder that we have genuine lunatics operating in the highest councils of government at the moment. It's an extremely dangerous situation.

Really? Whatever.
simrud
Posts: 23392
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 10/13/2003
Member: #474
USA
9/23/2006  7:46 PM
Ohnestly alll this talk about Iran and nukes is garbage. US should just invest into an independent Kurdistan, create another Israel like state directly in conflict with Iran, Syria, and the remnants of Iraq, and the nukes question will become irrelevant.

We just have to get the Kurds and the Turks to stop kililn each other for the first time in like a thousand years, thast the hard part. But hey, thats what a foregin policy is for right?

Too bad George W can't add 2 + 2 together and only understands direct force solutions.

Just imagine for a second a middle east cought smack in the middle between two Israels? Now thats somethign that would be awesome. And we would never need to send our stroops their again, just fund both countries so they maintain their total military superiority. And think of this, there are many more Kurds than Jews. So how hard can it be to prop them up.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
O.T. War in the middle East...

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy