In April, after Mr. Trump decisively lost the Wisconsin Republican primary, I had hoped that we here in the Midwest would turn out to be a firewall of rationality. Our political culture was distinctly inhospitable to Mr. Trump’s divisive, pugilistic style; the conservatives who had been successful here had tended to be serious, reform-oriented and able to express their ideas in more than 140 characters. But in November, Wisconsin lined up with the rest of the Rust Belt to give the presidency to Mr. Trump.

How on earth did that happen?

Before this year, I thought I had a relatively solid grasp on what conservatism stood for and where it was going. Over the previous decade, I helped advance the careers of conservatives like House Speaker Paul D. Ryan; Gov. Scott Walker; Reince Priebus, the chairman of the Republican National Committee; and Senator Ron Johnson. In 2010, conservatives won big majorities in the Wisconsin State Legislature, and I openly supported many of their reforms, including changes to collective bargaining and expansions of school choice.

In short, I was under the impression that conservatives actually believed things about free trade, balanced budgets, character and respect for constitutional rights. Then along came this campaign.
Continue reading the main story
Recent Comments
Anne-Marie Hislop 20 minutes ago

The trick now, of course, is for all the voices of moderation to step up. Those of us to the left of center have to stop enjoying our image...
byomtov 26 minutes ago

Mr. Sykes, While I appreciate your writing this column I, like many other commenters, think you would do well to examine your own role in...
Neo 35 minutes ago

U.S. intelligence officials reportedly believe that 9 out of 10 Americans can't detect "fake news".

On the surface, the explanations for Mr. Trump’s improbable win in Wisconsin are simple enough: He won big margins in rural, blue-collar counties and won the pivotal Green Bay area by double digits. But he underperformed Mitt Romney in the vote-rich Milwaukee suburbs and ended up getting fewer votes in victory than Mr. Romney received in his 2012 defeat. Hillary Clinton, however, got about 39,000 fewer votes in heavily Democratic Milwaukee County than President Obama did four years earlier. Democrats simply stayed home, though that is obviously not the whole story.

That is what I saw, and this is what it might mean for the future of conservatism. When I wrote in August 2015 that Mr. Trump was a cartoon version of every left-wing media stereotype of the reactionary, nativist, misogynist right, I thought that I was well within the mainstream of conservative thought — only to find conservative Trump critics denounced for apostasy by a right that decided that it was comfortable with embracing Trumpism. But in Wisconsin, conservative voters seemed to reject what Mr. Trump was selling, at least until after the convention.

To be sure, some of my callers embraced Mr. Trump’s suggestion for a ban on Muslims entering the country and voiced support for a proposal to deport all Muslims — even citizens. One caller compared American Muslims to rabid dogs. But right to the end, relatively few of my listeners bought into the crude nativism Mr. Trump was selling at his rallies.

What they did buy into was the argument that this was a “binary choice.” No matter how bad Mr. Trump was, my listeners argued, he could not possibly be as bad as Mrs. Clinton. You simply cannot overstate this as a factor in the final outcome. As our politics have become more polarized, the essential loyalties shift from ideas, to parties, to tribes, to individuals. Nothing else ultimately matters.

In this binary tribal world, where everything is at stake, everything is in play, there is no room for quibbles about character, or truth, or principles. If everything — the Supreme Court, the fate of Western civilization, the survival of the planet — depends on tribal victory, then neither individuals nor ideas can be determinative. I watched this play out in real time, as conservatives who fully understood the threat that Mr. Trump posed succumbed to the argument about the Supreme Court. As even Mr. Ryan discovered, neutrality was not acceptable; if you were not for Mr. Trump, then you were for Mrs. Clinton.

The state of our politics also explains why none of the revelations, outrages or gaffes seemed to dent Mr. Trump’s popularity.

In this political universe, voters accept that they must tolerate bizarre behavior, dishonesty, crudity and cruelty, because the other side is always worse; the stakes are such that no qualms can get in the way of the greater cause.

For many listeners, nothing was worse than Hillary Clinton. Two decades of vilification had taken their toll: Listeners whom I knew to be decent, thoughtful individuals began forwarding stories with conspiracy theories about President Obama and Mrs. Clinton — that he was a secret Muslim, that she ran a child sex ring out of a pizza parlor. When I tried to point out that such stories were demonstrably false, they generally refused to accept evidence that came from outside their bubble. The echo chamber had morphed into a full-blown alternate reality silo of conspiracy theories, fake news and propaganda.

And this is where it became painful. Even among Republicans who had no illusions about Mr. Trump’s character or judgment, the demands of that tribal loyalty took precedence. To resist was an act of betrayal.

When it became clear that I was going to remain #NeverTrump, conservatives I had known and worked with for more than two decades organized boycotts of my show. One prominent G.O.P. activist sent out an email blast calling me a “Judas goat,” and calling for postelection retribution. As the summer turned to fall, I knew that I was losing listeners and said so publicly.

And then, there was social media. Unless you have experienced it, it’s difficult to describe the virulence of the Twitter storms that were unleashed on Trump skeptics. In my timelines, I found myself called a “cuckservative,” a favorite gibe of white nationalists; and someone Photoshopped my face into a gas chamber. Under the withering fire of the trolls, one conservative commentator and Republican political leader after another fell in line.

How had we gotten here?

One staple of every radio talk show was, of course, the bias of the mainstream media. This was, indeed, a target-rich environment. But as we learned this year, we had succeeded in persuading our audiences to ignore and discount any information from the mainstream media. Over time, we’d succeeded in delegitimizing the media altogether — all the normal guideposts were down, the referees discredited.

That left a void that we conservatives failed to fill. For years, we ignored the birthers, the racists, the truthers and other conspiracy theorists who indulged fantasies of Mr. Obama’s secret Muslim plot to subvert Christendom, or who peddled baseless tales of Mrs. Clinton’s murder victims. Rather than confront the purveyors of such disinformation, we changed the channel because, after all, they were our allies, whose quirks could be allowed or at least ignored.

We destroyed our own immunity to fake news, while empowering the worst and most reckless voices on the right.

This was not mere naïveté. It was also a moral failure, one that now lies at the heart of the conservative movement even in its moment of apparent electoral triumph. Now that the election is over, don’t expect any profiles in courage from the Republican Party pushing back against those trends; the gravitational pull of our binary politics is too strong.

I’m only glad I’m not going to be a part of it anymore.

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:- we have not a "race" problem but African American nation problem. We just overlooked that new nation of people get created with specific culture which has no place yet to safe-realize and even cannot yet identifie itself. Racism is also there but this is not the major issue.

I'm sorry but you're going to have to more clearly explain this statement. I can't understand what you're trying to say here. What do you mean by "African American nation problem"? What do you mean by "new nation of people created with specific culture which has no place"?

I'm really not sure what you are saying and want you to elaborate on these points.

Every nation need place to realize it suverenity. It may be independent country or cultural enclave inside multi-national country.
It can be territorial or just cultural identity.
I believe that Afro-Americans are a new nation in the process of self-realization.
There are clearly many people of African race who are not African Americans while leaving in USA. They are representing other nations - like Iruba, Nigerians, etc.
All of then can be a subject of racism. But for African Americans it is obviously more to it.
American nation is a mix of emigrants from all over the world who came here at their own will and many with no intentions to maintain their national identity but rather became American nationals politically and culturally. It is not true however for many people who are there not by their will or were there before colonization like Native Americans and Northers People. They want to maintain their national identity separate from US Americans. And they have all rights to do so.
Same true for African Americans. But I think they just start to realize this national identity.
I think the whole American society will need to realize and embrace it. But this process is complicated and just starting.
It is definitely bigger that this Trump-no-Trump distractions.

WOW! You have a lot of concepts in your post. To simplify things from my perspective I won't try to address all of your points. Let me just say this, African Americans have ALWAYS been part of the fabric of this country! Even when we weren't considered to be so.

AA's have fought in every war this country ever fought. After gaining freedom AA's could've taken violent revenge on a massive scale but in fact that was relatively rare! All AA's ever wanted was to be treated fairly and with respect and to pursue the American Dream!

There was NEVER any justification for violence and oppression inflicted upon AA's. The restraint under the circumstances is a badge of honor and a rebuke to this nation that they were treated so poorly for so long. For what reason were AA's denied their rights or mistreated??? There is no reason other than pure evil and greed.

To this very day this country has never fully lived up to the debt they owe AA's. There would be no America as we know it without AA's. Our story is inextricably intertwined with the history of this country. We are America just as much if not more than most since we gave all for this country and received so little of the spoils of success we helped create. If you don't know what I'm talking about then go look up the many resources on how much AA's contributed to the fortunes of this country.

This is all fair and true.
My question is how you identify yourself and AA people inside America - as a unique nation which need to be treated as such or you want to dissolve into American nation which has no concept or race, nationality, and cultural identity other that American? You cannot have it both ways - it is the choice to be made.
As far as someone owe something to somebody I do not believe in this.
I owe nothing to any nation and no nation owe anything to me.
I rely only on myself and owe only what I managed to achieve.
And I give same right to every other human being to do same.
If you look at the history of the world no nation that was enslaved, murdered, tortured, and displaced get their debt paid off by anybody.
There is no fairness in history. Until oppressed get on right side of the gun they get nothing back.

African Americans didn't choose to be set apart! That was imposed upon them and to a large degree still goes on. AA's wanted to live in a colorblind society but it was the White majority that did not want it. You really don't know or understand the dynamics of race in this country. There is much I could teach you about the TRUTH of this country but you have to want to know the truth.

Natives were mistreated but did receive some recompense and land of their own! Japanese Americans that were wrongfully held in concentration camps received recompense. This country became great largely off the backs of African Slaves and all they did was kick us in the teeth!

Just so we're clear AA's are a large part of the identity and culture of America you can't separate us out of history and have the same country. There's no facet of what made America what it is that doesn't have a connection to the African slaves. That includes the Revolution and the Constitution. Everything was based off of the system of slavery and how that allowed this country to become great.

OK
So all wealth America has is build by slaves...
The rest of the people were just a bunch of cowboys drinking in saloons...
Now what? They should go back to Europe from were they unlawfully came to grab the land, kill and enslave people, and burn the crosses...
And leave everything they grab to local and displaced people to restore the historical fairness.
Obviously it is absurd.
No one has power and right to separate people in any kind of groups.
And it is not needed as they separating themselves without anyone help.
What Native and Japaneses receive is a joke comparing to all dignity that was taking away from them. Not only dignity, everything.
And they will not get it back ever. Even if the whole world will want to give it back to them.
Its gone and not returnable. Last year snow.
The history of the human kind is the history of genocide, destruction, wars, oppression, and injustice.
This how we came around. All of us.
And as we will continue to berry our had in the past and finding enemies and animosities we will never get out of it.
Time to give everyone the clean slate and leave together as one.

Like I said you really have no clue about this subject. I'm my family historian and in my research I've had to also research the family of the people who enslaved my ancestors. I have extensive records on every descendent from the man who enslaved my people. All the land and profits made going back 258 years.

In the census records they actually did detailed financial statements so I have access to just how much money they made off my ancestors hard work. I have copies of the actual record of purchase of my ancestor back in 1758! I have a nearly complete record of births and deaths from that time to the present and I can tell you it is life changing to see it all organized into a coherent record.

I'm planning to visit the area where my ancestors slaved away on plantations and visit the graves. I hope to also find where they may have buried my original ancestors back before they marked the graves of slaves. I can tell you that it's not time to just "give everyone a clean slate and live together as one". This isn't ancient history! I've got relatives still living that lived much of this horrible history.

His challenge is not a lack of understanding, it's indifference, lack of respect for others and a single minded need to rationalize anything that benefits him, however remotely into an absolute positive. It's not an uncommon combination in general.

You guys are amazing in how microscopic and self-centric is your vision of the world.
Little mind in little space.
Good luck living in your little box and slowly carry you little home on your shoulders while the world moving forward at the speed of light.
As far as researching my family - 256 members of it were burned in the chambers on Nazy camps. What compensation should I get from Germans and other Nazy alliance nations? And what is will account for for 6 million people including 2 millions children. How much wealth this slaughtered people will be able to create for human race?
And nobody want to compensate... what a pity...

Microscopic and self centric? Big words and completely irrelevant and out of context like everything else you post. Nothing I said or Nixluva said had anything to do with Nazi Germany. We are talking US history and the role of racism. Try and keep up with the conversation.

Obviously the Jewish Holocaust was horrific. I don't know much about the aftermath and what Germany did to try and apologize for what happened but I do know that this country has not really ever dealt with the issue of Slavery and the wage theft, murder, oppression etc for hundreds of years!!!

In this election we heard a lot about the plight of the White Working Class. They want a return to the good old days. What about AA's? There NEVER were any Good Old Days for AA's. As they say we're still waiting for our 40 Acres and a Mule so to speak.

My Great, Great Grandfather and his children were slaves. A month after the Civil War ended the Freedman's Beureau ordered the former slaves to sign Labor Contracts with the former Slaveholders!
They did not want to. They wanted the land they were promised. Not free land but land they could lease and eventually buy!!!

The Slaveholders convinced the government not to do this. So my Great, Great Grandfather who like most slaves was illiterate signed the work contract with the very man who had enslaved him and all of my ancestors. This was in 1865. By 1870 my Great, Great Grandfather came to own 212 Acres, a home and a Sugar Cane Mill. He employed other people. Unfortunately they lost it all in the 1920's during the Great Depression.

Nix - you need to educate yourself more about world history... at least recent.
It will give you a good perspective about you own history and help to understand what are most of the American people are about.
Most of Americans came from other countries and cultures long after slavery was abolished.
I agree that they must study the history of their new home but it should go both ways.

Forgive me for being more focused on the U.S. and the history of my people and this country! SMDH!
I'm fully aware of the history of this country and immigration into this country. What you and most of the people who came here after slavery may not realize is that you benefited from the period of Slavery but the only people who have not are the descendants of those slaves!!!

Why is it OK for you to be smug and disinterested in how this country became great and the benefits you now enjoy came at a price. A price paid by my ancestors!!! You should be the very type of person most concerned with the injustices done to Natives and AA's. Your callous indifference is not a good look for you!!!

We all are benefiting from body of work of people from all countries and ages who build human civilization, African Americans included. I give all of them equal due. I do not know how to make history fair. I do not think it is possible.
At lease it was never fair to most of the people. My believe is however that this is not a reason for hate and animosity. Especially against people who have nothing to do with what happened in the past.

OK first off, African Americans have been the most forgiving and LEAST hate driven people in this country DESPITE the hundreds of years of abuse and denial of rights. You are making a HUGE mistake in how you are assessing the situation here. Perhaps if you spent just a little time actually learning about this subject then you'd know what the heck you were talking about.

African Americans greatly outnumbered Whites in many areas of the South after the war. It wasn't until massive European Immigration from the North and overseas that this changed. There were false fears and rumors spread of a massive attack by former slaves to inflict Revenge on the White population. This was a lie and NEVER happened. Some Racist Whites spread the rumors to justify violence against Blacks. In fact the AA's were mostly peaceful, if not fully trusting of the White population, but all they wanted was to be treated fairly and to have freedom to live in peace, but that's not what they got from the White population.

These are the minutes from the historic Meeting between General Sherman of the Union Army and a collection of Black leaders in Savannah. Gen. Sherman wanted to know what the African Americans wanted after they were freed from Slavery. It was this meeting that led to the Infamous 40 Acres and a Mule promise made to African Americans:

Garrison Frazier being chosen by the persons present to express their common sentiments upon the matters of inquiry, makes answers to inquiries as follows:

First: State what your understanding is in regard to the acts of Congress and President Lincoln's [Emancipation] proclamation, touching the condition of the colored people in the Rebel States.

Answer–So far as I understand President Lincoln's proclamation to the Rebellious States, it is, that if they would lay down their arms and submit to the laws of the United States before the first of January, 1863, all should be well; but if they did not, then all the slaves in the Rebel States should be free henceforth and forever. That is what I understood.

Second–State what you understand by Slavery and the freedom that was to be given by the President's proclamation.

Answer–Slavery is, receiving by irresistible power the work of another man, and not by his consent. The freedom, as I understand it, promised by the proclamation, is taking us from under the yoke of bondage, and placing us where we could reap the fruit of our own labor, take care of ourselves and assist the Government in maintaining our freedom.

Third: State in what manner you think you can take care of yourselves, and how can you best assist the Government in maintaining your freedom.

Answer: The way we can best take care of ourselves is to have land, and turn it and till it by our own labor–that is, by the labor of the women and children and old men; and we can soon maintain ourselves and have something to spare. And to assist the Government, the young men should enlist in the service of the Government, and serve in such manner as they may be wanted. (The Rebels told us that they piled them up and made batteries of them, and sold them to Cuba; but we don't believe that.) We want to be placed on land until we are able to buy it and make it our own.

Fourth: State in what manner you would rather live–whether scattered among the whites or in colonies by yourselves.

Answer: I would prefer to live by ourselves, for there is a prejudice against us in the South that will take years to get over; but I do not know that I can answer for my brethren. [Mr. Lynch says he thinks they should not be separated, but live together. All the other persons present, being questioned one by one, answer that they agree with Brother Frazier.]1

Fifth: Do you think that there is intelligence enough among the slaves of the South to maintain themselves under the Government of the United States and the equal protection of its laws, and maintain good and peaceable relations among yourselves and with your neighbors?

Answer–I think there is sufficient intelligence among us to do so.

Sixth–State what is the feeling of the black population of the South toward the Government of the United States; what is the understanding in respect to the present war–its causes and object, and their disposition to aid either side. State fully your views.

Answer–I think you will find there are thousands that are willing to make any sacrifice to assist the Government of the United States, while there are also many that are not willing to take up arms. I do not suppose there are a dozen men that are opposed to the Government. I understand, as to the war, that the South is the aggressor. President Lincoln was elected President by a majority of the United States, which guaranteed him the right of holding the office and exercising that right over the whole United States. The South, without knowing what he would do, rebelled. The war was commenced by the Rebels before he came into office. The object of the war was not at first to give the slaves their freedom, but the sole object of the war was at first to bring the rebellious States back into the Union and their loyalty to the laws of the United States. Afterward, knowing the value set on the slaves by the Rebels, the President thought that his proclamation would stimulate them to lay down their arms, reduce them to obedience, and help to bring back the Rebel States; and their not doing so has now made the freedom of the slaves a part of the war. It is my opinion that there is not a man in this city that could be started to help the Rebels one inch, for that would be suicide. There were two black men left with the Rebels because they had taken an active part for the Rebels, and thought something might befall them if they stayed behind; but there is not another man. If the prayers that have gone up for the Union army could be read out, you would not get through them these two weeks.

Seventh: State whether the sentiments you now express are those only of the colored people in the city; or do they extend to the colored population through the country? and what are your means of knowing the sentiments of those living in the country?

Answer: I think the sentiments are the same among the colored people of the State. My opinion is formed by personal communication in the course of my ministry, and also from the thousands that followed the Union army, leaving their homes and undergoing suffering. I did not think there would be so many; the number surpassed my expectation.

http://www.freedmen.umd.edu/savmtg.htm

I want to expand at my statement you highlighted and argue using the facts of distant past.
I believe that no person leaving now is responsible for any deeds committed by people of his race, nation, or tribe in the past or present. Everyone is responsible only for what he/she has done or not done in his life personally. There is no "group responsibility". The past id dead, the future is just a dream. There is only one thing that matters and is inevitable - current moment.
The rest is just a destruction.

I have done my best to be a good father to my children and i'm proud of how I raised them. They are all happy, healthy and productive members of society. I'm well aware of the need to live in the present. However, my view on history is that it does matter!!! If you don't know your history and the mistakes of the past you can't avoid repeating them.

I just wanted to make it clear that despite your cynical view on things, African Americans have tried to take charge of their lives and improve their lot in life in this country and for hundreds of years those efforts have been interfered with and it was impossible to fully overcome an ENTIRE SYSTEM built to hold them down!!!

I have the 258 year history of my family thru my father's line. I have my 90 and 94 year old Grandmothers and 70 year old father and mother here to testify to much of the injustice of this country towards AA's. My 51 years of life are added to that litany. My MANY ancestors who fought for this country even tho they were mistreated by this country. Starting with my Great, Great Grandfather Abraham Gooden, who was a slave but found his way to the Union Army and fought as a Private in the 24th Regiment U.S. Colored Troops. My Grandfather who got a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star for his service in Italy and Germany and his brothers who fought in WWI and WWII. My Dad who was in Vietnam. I think their lives and struggles deserve to be spoken for, remembered and honored. That things are still unequal bothers me greatly. I'm sorry for you that you can't empathize and have taken a very cynical view despite being a descendent of people who were also greatly wronged not so long ago.

I cannot see anything cynical in what I said.
I do not feel any guilt for the things I haven't done.
And so I do not blame others for what they haven't done.
If my people will not be able to move on after every massacre, segregation, and humiliation we will never survive and rise even hire.
We forgive but not forget. This how our straight is rising.
So you also can obtain this power. It is all inside your mind and in your hands.

You seem to be very Cynical and Insensitive IMO. For one thing do you think that AA's haven't been fighting and struggling against great odds for their entire existence in this country??? You are assuming that all we had to do was just WORK HARDER and everything would've worked out great for us like the Jews!!! You are woefully ignorant of how society really worked here and still works in many areas. I find your callous disregard for the impacts of Systemic Racism astounding! You my friend are ignorant of many things and IMO people who think like you are a large part of the problem. By refusing to accept the evidence of the Systemic Racism:

You are part of the crowd that doesn't see the persistent Voter Suppression that has gone on.
You are part of the crowd that doesn't see the history of Redlining and how that impacted Black Families.
You are part of the crowd that doesn't see the impact of Predatory Lending that has robbed Black and Latino Families and ruined lives.
You are part of the crowd that doesn't see the devastation of the Racially Biased Judicial System, over Policing and Prison Industrial Complex that has ravaged the Black and Latino Communities.
You are part of the crowd that doesn't see the inequities throughout this system that have ALWAYS existed and keep minorities from achieving more of the American Dream.

Instead you seem to think it's all in our heads and that we should have nothing standing in our way of achieving more success. You know cuz it's all in the past and that kind of stuff doesn't happen anymore. Unlike Jewish Americans, African Americans could not even come close to blending in with White Society and climbing up ladders to success:

With its establishment in 1948, the State of Israel became the focal point of American Jewish life and philanthropy, as well as the symbol around which American Jews united. At the same time, American Jews worked in the years following World War II to reinvigorate American Jewish life. Five major themes defined the immediate postwar decades:

1. the decline of antisemitism
2. a massive movement of American Jews from cities to suburbs
3. the emergence of an American Jewish communal order emphasizing Israel and political liberalism
4. a large internal immigration of Jews to the American Sun Belt (particularly Los Angeles and Miami)
5. glowing optimism concerning the American Jewish community and its future.

Burgeoning economic growth, increasing popular acceptance of religious and cultural pluralism, the high education achievements of native-born Jews, and an overpowering desire on the part of many Jews to "make it" in America all contributed during these decades to a spectacular rise of American Jews to positions of authority and respect within the general American community.

http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/twenty/tkeyinfo/jewishexpb.htm

Now just compare this with the circumstances of African Americans during the same time period from 1948. AA's were already in a far worse position in this country before the War and things didn't suddenly transform immediately following the war. There is no comparison with the opportunities Jewish Americans had versus African Americans.

You are making a lot of assumption about what I think or said.
Its more like what you think about what I think.
During Civil Right Movement AA and American Jews were fighting together against racism and segregation and we achieved great success.
Unfortunately some political leaders in black movement at some point chose antisemitism as ideology and decided to part ways with Jewish democratic movement. The Black Muslim influence with it natural animosity against Jews as well as anti-Judaism undertones in Christianity are also to blame.
As per Israel AA had a similar opportunity in Liberia which failed for many reasons...
Integration is a compromise and Jews muster the art of compromise for 5555 years we keep counting.
The main thing we are not generalizing our enemies to not became as bigoted as they are.
As soon as you start hanging all dogs on faceless "whites" you get real white racist to get away with murder.
Every person is caring his own load and I know you do your part and more for your community.
And every racist is caring his own own responsibility for his actions which should not be flattened around people he looks alike basically bailing him out.

What i've been trying unsuccessfully to point out to you is that there have been and continue to be MASSIVE impediments to advancement for African Americans, that did not and do not exist in the same way for Jewish Americans. Certainly there has been and continues to be Anti-Semitism, but you seem incapable of understanding the reasons why African Americans protest and complain about how they are treated.

I know all about the history of Jewish and African Americans in this country. The good and the bad. That is not what this is about tho. SYSTEMIC RACISM is not about individual people and so you clearly miss the point that whether a Group or Individual has racist views is not the most critical issue. THE ENTIRE SYSTEM was BUILT to be RACIST!!! I can show you all of the long standing structural foundations of this country that still impact AA's negatively. Jews did not have the same level of impediments throughout the history of this country. There is no comparison.

The one thing I don't need a lesson in is White Racists. When I was a child in the Early 1970's I was chased along a country road by a car full of Klan Members and thank God they only wanted to scare me. This was in my mother's home town of Benson, North Carolina where I would visit in the Summer Months. The Klan is still active there to this day.

http://abc11.com/archive/8828221/

I agree the issues with underdevelopment of communities and individuals are obvious.
I clearly understand the roots of the issues on hand are in slavery, segregation, and institutional racism, as well in regular racism.
What you proposing to do to overcome the issues?
What personally every citizen can do?
Do you think some additional benefits are required based on some citizen identified as AA, some preferential treatment to provide free education, jobs, counseling, housing, etc.? How to identify if person is AA? Like using the type of research you do for your family to make sure the person is descendant from slaves not came from Africa or Brazil, or Caribbean later? How to make this all acceptable by all AA community as many can perceive this all stuff as outright racism? How to make sure help is used for bettering of people life not to enrich politicians, gangs, and how to avoid corruption on bureaucratic and personal level?
Its a lot of practical questions. I never hear any practical suggestions from you on all this.
You justified facts that are widely accepted by the society already but how it helps to make things better?

blkexec wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:- we have not a "race" problem but African American nation problem. We just overlooked that new nation of people get created with specific culture which has no place yet to safe-realize and even cannot yet identifie itself. Racism is also there but this is not the major issue.

I'm sorry but you're going to have to more clearly explain this statement. I can't understand what you're trying to say here. What do you mean by "African American nation problem"? What do you mean by "new nation of people created with specific culture which has no place"?

I'm really not sure what you are saying and want you to elaborate on these points.

Every nation need place to realize it suverenity. It may be independent country or cultural enclave inside multi-national country.
It can be territorial or just cultural identity.
I believe that Afro-Americans are a new nation in the process of self-realization.
There are clearly many people of African race who are not African Americans while leaving in USA. They are representing other nations - like Iruba, Nigerians, etc.
All of then can be a subject of racism. But for African Americans it is obviously more to it.
American nation is a mix of emigrants from all over the world who came here at their own will and many with no intentions to maintain their national identity but rather became American nationals politically and culturally. It is not true however for many people who are there not by their will or were there before colonization like Native Americans and Northers People. They want to maintain their national identity separate from US Americans. And they have all rights to do so.
Same true for African Americans. But I think they just start to realize this national identity.
I think the whole American society will need to realize and embrace it. But this process is complicated and just starting.
It is definitely bigger that this Trump-no-Trump distractions.

WOW! You have a lot of concepts in your post. To simplify things from my perspective I won't try to address all of your points. Let me just say this, African Americans have ALWAYS been part of the fabric of this country! Even when we weren't considered to be so.

AA's have fought in every war this country ever fought. After gaining freedom AA's could've taken violent revenge on a massive scale but in fact that was relatively rare! All AA's ever wanted was to be treated fairly and with respect and to pursue the American Dream!

There was NEVER any justification for violence and oppression inflicted upon AA's. The restraint under the circumstances is a badge of honor and a rebuke to this nation that they were treated so poorly for so long. For what reason were AA's denied their rights or mistreated??? There is no reason other than pure evil and greed.

To this very day this country has never fully lived up to the debt they owe AA's. There would be no America as we know it without AA's. Our story is inextricably intertwined with the history of this country. We are America just as much if not more than most since we gave all for this country and received so little of the spoils of success we helped create. If you don't know what I'm talking about then go look up the many resources on how much AA's contributed to the fortunes of this country.

This is all fair and true.
My question is how you identify yourself and AA people inside America - as a unique nation which need to be treated as such or you want to dissolve into American nation which has no concept or race, nationality, and cultural identity other that American? You cannot have it both ways - it is the choice to be made.
As far as someone owe something to somebody I do not believe in this.
I owe nothing to any nation and no nation owe anything to me.
I rely only on myself and owe only what I managed to achieve.
And I give same right to every other human being to do same.
If you look at the history of the world no nation that was enslaved, murdered, tortured, and displaced get their debt paid off by anybody.
There is no fairness in history. Until oppressed get on right side of the gun they get nothing back.

African Americans didn't choose to be set apart! That was imposed upon them and to a large degree still goes on. AA's wanted to live in a colorblind society but it was the White majority that did not want it. You really don't know or understand the dynamics of race in this country. There is much I could teach you about the TRUTH of this country but you have to want to know the truth.

Natives were mistreated but did receive some recompense and land of their own! Japanese Americans that were wrongfully held in concentration camps received recompense. This country became great largely off the backs of African Slaves and all they did was kick us in the teeth!

Just so we're clear AA's are a large part of the identity and culture of America you can't separate us out of history and have the same country. There's no facet of what made America what it is that doesn't have a connection to the African slaves. That includes the Revolution and the Constitution. Everything was based off of the system of slavery and how that allowed this country to become great.

OK
So all wealth America has is build by slaves...
The rest of the people were just a bunch of cowboys drinking in saloons...
Now what? They should go back to Europe from were they unlawfully came to grab the land, kill and enslave people, and burn the crosses...
And leave everything they grab to local and displaced people to restore the historical fairness.
Obviously it is absurd.
No one has power and right to separate people in any kind of groups.
And it is not needed as they separating themselves without anyone help.
What Native and Japaneses receive is a joke comparing to all dignity that was taking away from them. Not only dignity, everything.
And they will not get it back ever. Even if the whole world will want to give it back to them.
Its gone and not returnable. Last year snow.
The history of the human kind is the history of genocide, destruction, wars, oppression, and injustice.
This how we came around. All of us.
And as we will continue to berry our had in the past and finding enemies and animosities we will never get out of it.
Time to give everyone the clean slate and leave together as one.

Like I said you really have no clue about this subject. I'm my family historian and in my research I've had to also research the family of the people who enslaved my ancestors. I have extensive records on every descendent from the man who enslaved my people. All the land and profits made going back 258 years.

In the census records they actually did detailed financial statements so I have access to just how much money they made off my ancestors hard work. I have copies of the actual record of purchase of my ancestor back in 1758! I have a nearly complete record of births and deaths from that time to the present and I can tell you it is life changing to see it all organized into a coherent record.

I'm planning to visit the area where my ancestors slaved away on plantations and visit the graves. I hope to also find where they may have buried my original ancestors back before they marked the graves of slaves. I can tell you that it's not time to just "give everyone a clean slate and live together as one". This isn't ancient history! I've got relatives still living that lived much of this horrible history.

His challenge is not a lack of understanding, it's indifference, lack of respect for others and a single minded need to rationalize anything that benefits him, however remotely into an absolute positive. It's not an uncommon combination in general.

You guys are amazing in how microscopic and self-centric is your vision of the world.
Little mind in little space.
Good luck living in your little box and slowly carry you little home on your shoulders while the world moving forward at the speed of light.
As far as researching my family - 256 members of it were burned in the chambers on Nazy camps. What compensation should I get from Germans and other Nazy alliance nations? And what is will account for for 6 million people including 2 millions children. How much wealth this slaughtered people will be able to create for human race?
And nobody want to compensate... what a pity...

Microscopic and self centric? Big words and completely irrelevant and out of context like everything else you post. Nothing I said or Nixluva said had anything to do with Nazi Germany. We are talking US history and the role of racism. Try and keep up with the conversation.

Obviously the Jewish Holocaust was horrific. I don't know much about the aftermath and what Germany did to try and apologize for what happened but I do know that this country has not really ever dealt with the issue of Slavery and the wage theft, murder, oppression etc for hundreds of years!!!

In this election we heard a lot about the plight of the White Working Class. They want a return to the good old days. What about AA's? There NEVER were any Good Old Days for AA's. As they say we're still waiting for our 40 Acres and a Mule so to speak.

My Great, Great Grandfather and his children were slaves. A month after the Civil War ended the Freedman's Beureau ordered the former slaves to sign Labor Contracts with the former Slaveholders!
They did not want to. They wanted the land they were promised. Not free land but land they could lease and eventually buy!!!

The Slaveholders convinced the government not to do this. So my Great, Great Grandfather who like most slaves was illiterate signed the work contract with the very man who had enslaved him and all of my ancestors. This was in 1865. By 1870 my Great, Great Grandfather came to own 212 Acres, a home and a Sugar Cane Mill. He employed other people. Unfortunately they lost it all in the 1920's during the Great Depression.

Nix - you need to educate yourself more about world history... at least recent.
It will give you a good perspective about you own history and help to understand what are most of the American people are about.
Most of Americans came from other countries and cultures long after slavery was abolished.
I agree that they must study the history of their new home but it should go both ways.

Forgive me for being more focused on the U.S. and the history of my people and this country! SMDH!
I'm fully aware of the history of this country and immigration into this country. What you and most of the people who came here after slavery may not realize is that you benefited from the period of Slavery but the only people who have not are the descendants of those slaves!!!

Why is it OK for you to be smug and disinterested in how this country became great and the benefits you now enjoy came at a price. A price paid by my ancestors!!! You should be the very type of person most concerned with the injustices done to Natives and AA's. Your callous indifference is not a good look for you!!!

We all are benefiting from body of work of people from all countries and ages who build human civilization, African Americans included. I give all of them equal due. I do not know how to make history fair. I do not think it is possible.
At lease it was never fair to most of the people. My believe is however that this is not a reason for hate and animosity. Especially against people who have nothing to do with what happened in the past.

OK first off, African Americans have been the most forgiving and LEAST hate driven people in this country DESPITE the hundreds of years of abuse and denial of rights. You are making a HUGE mistake in how you are assessing the situation here. Perhaps if you spent just a little time actually learning about this subject then you'd know what the heck you were talking about.

African Americans greatly outnumbered Whites in many areas of the South after the war. It wasn't until massive European Immigration from the North and overseas that this changed. There were false fears and rumors spread of a massive attack by former slaves to inflict Revenge on the White population. This was a lie and NEVER happened. Some Racist Whites spread the rumors to justify violence against Blacks. In fact the AA's were mostly peaceful, if not fully trusting of the White population, but all they wanted was to be treated fairly and to have freedom to live in peace, but that's not what they got from the White population.

These are the minutes from the historic Meeting between General Sherman of the Union Army and a collection of Black leaders in Savannah. Gen. Sherman wanted to know what the African Americans wanted after they were freed from Slavery. It was this meeting that led to the Infamous 40 Acres and a Mule promise made to African Americans:

Garrison Frazier being chosen by the persons present to express their common sentiments upon the matters of inquiry, makes answers to inquiries as follows:

First: State what your understanding is in regard to the acts of Congress and President Lincoln's [Emancipation] proclamation, touching the condition of the colored people in the Rebel States.

Answer–So far as I understand President Lincoln's proclamation to the Rebellious States, it is, that if they would lay down their arms and submit to the laws of the United States before the first of January, 1863, all should be well; but if they did not, then all the slaves in the Rebel States should be free henceforth and forever. That is what I understood.

Second–State what you understand by Slavery and the freedom that was to be given by the President's proclamation.

Answer–Slavery is, receiving by irresistible power the work of another man, and not by his consent. The freedom, as I understand it, promised by the proclamation, is taking us from under the yoke of bondage, and placing us where we could reap the fruit of our own labor, take care of ourselves and assist the Government in maintaining our freedom.

Third: State in what manner you think you can take care of yourselves, and how can you best assist the Government in maintaining your freedom.

Answer: The way we can best take care of ourselves is to have land, and turn it and till it by our own labor–that is, by the labor of the women and children and old men; and we can soon maintain ourselves and have something to spare. And to assist the Government, the young men should enlist in the service of the Government, and serve in such manner as they may be wanted. (The Rebels told us that they piled them up and made batteries of them, and sold them to Cuba; but we don't believe that.) We want to be placed on land until we are able to buy it and make it our own.

Fourth: State in what manner you would rather live–whether scattered among the whites or in colonies by yourselves.

Answer: I would prefer to live by ourselves, for there is a prejudice against us in the South that will take years to get over; but I do not know that I can answer for my brethren. [Mr. Lynch says he thinks they should not be separated, but live together. All the other persons present, being questioned one by one, answer that they agree with Brother Frazier.]1

Fifth: Do you think that there is intelligence enough among the slaves of the South to maintain themselves under the Government of the United States and the equal protection of its laws, and maintain good and peaceable relations among yourselves and with your neighbors?

Answer–I think there is sufficient intelligence among us to do so.

Sixth–State what is the feeling of the black population of the South toward the Government of the United States; what is the understanding in respect to the present war–its causes and object, and their disposition to aid either side. State fully your views.

Answer–I think you will find there are thousands that are willing to make any sacrifice to assist the Government of the United States, while there are also many that are not willing to take up arms. I do not suppose there are a dozen men that are opposed to the Government. I understand, as to the war, that the South is the aggressor. President Lincoln was elected President by a majority of the United States, which guaranteed him the right of holding the office and exercising that right over the whole United States. The South, without knowing what he would do, rebelled. The war was commenced by the Rebels before he came into office. The object of the war was not at first to give the slaves their freedom, but the sole object of the war was at first to bring the rebellious States back into the Union and their loyalty to the laws of the United States. Afterward, knowing the value set on the slaves by the Rebels, the President thought that his proclamation would stimulate them to lay down their arms, reduce them to obedience, and help to bring back the Rebel States; and their not doing so has now made the freedom of the slaves a part of the war. It is my opinion that there is not a man in this city that could be started to help the Rebels one inch, for that would be suicide. There were two black men left with the Rebels because they had taken an active part for the Rebels, and thought something might befall them if they stayed behind; but there is not another man. If the prayers that have gone up for the Union army could be read out, you would not get through them these two weeks.

Seventh: State whether the sentiments you now express are those only of the colored people in the city; or do they extend to the colored population through the country? and what are your means of knowing the sentiments of those living in the country?

Answer: I think the sentiments are the same among the colored people of the State. My opinion is formed by personal communication in the course of my ministry, and also from the thousands that followed the Union army, leaving their homes and undergoing suffering. I did not think there would be so many; the number surpassed my expectation.

http://www.freedmen.umd.edu/savmtg.htm

I want to expand at my statement you highlighted and argue using the facts of distant past.
I believe that no person leaving now is responsible for any deeds committed by people of his race, nation, or tribe in the past or present. Everyone is responsible only for what he/she has done or not done in his life personally. There is no "group responsibility". The past id dead, the future is just a dream. There is only one thing that matters and is inevitable - current moment.
The rest is just a destruction.

I have done my best to be a good father to my children and i'm proud of how I raised them. They are all happy, healthy and productive members of society. I'm well aware of the need to live in the present. However, my view on history is that it does matter!!! If you don't know your history and the mistakes of the past you can't avoid repeating them.

I just wanted to make it clear that despite your cynical view on things, African Americans have tried to take charge of their lives and improve their lot in life in this country and for hundreds of years those efforts have been interfered with and it was impossible to fully overcome an ENTIRE SYSTEM built to hold them down!!!

I have the 258 year history of my family thru my father's line. I have my 90 and 94 year old Grandmothers and 70 year old father and mother here to testify to much of the injustice of this country towards AA's. My 51 years of life are added to that litany. My MANY ancestors who fought for this country even tho they were mistreated by this country. Starting with my Great, Great Grandfather Abraham Gooden, who was a slave but found his way to the Union Army and fought as a Private in the 24th Regiment U.S. Colored Troops. My Grandfather who got a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star for his service in Italy and Germany and his brothers who fought in WWI and WWII. My Dad who was in Vietnam. I think their lives and struggles deserve to be spoken for, remembered and honored. That things are still unequal bothers me greatly. I'm sorry for you that you can't empathize and have taken a very cynical view despite being a descendent of people who were also greatly wronged not so long ago.

I cannot see anything cynical in what I said.
I do not feel any guilt for the things I haven't done.
And so I do not blame others for what they haven't done.
If my people will not be able to move on after every massacre, segregation, and humiliation we will never survive and rise even hire.
We forgive but not forget. This how our straight is rising.
So you also can obtain this power. It is all inside your mind and in your hands.

You seem to be very Cynical and Insensitive IMO. For one thing do you think that AA's haven't been fighting and struggling against great odds for their entire existence in this country??? You are assuming that all we had to do was just WORK HARDER and everything would've worked out great for us like the Jews!!! You are woefully ignorant of how society really worked here and still works in many areas. I find your callous disregard for the impacts of Systemic Racism astounding! You my friend are ignorant of many things and IMO people who think like you are a large part of the problem. By refusing to accept the evidence of the Systemic Racism:

You are part of the crowd that doesn't see the persistent Voter Suppression that has gone on.
You are part of the crowd that doesn't see the history of Redlining and how that impacted Black Families.
You are part of the crowd that doesn't see the impact of Predatory Lending that has robbed Black and Latino Families and ruined lives.
You are part of the crowd that doesn't see the devastation of the Racially Biased Judicial System, over Policing and Prison Industrial Complex that has ravaged the Black and Latino Communities.
You are part of the crowd that doesn't see the inequities throughout this system that have ALWAYS existed and keep minorities from achieving more of the American Dream.

Instead you seem to think it's all in our heads and that we should have nothing standing in our way of achieving more success. You know cuz it's all in the past and that kind of stuff doesn't happen anymore. Unlike Jewish Americans, African Americans could not even come close to blending in with White Society and climbing up ladders to success:

With its establishment in 1948, the State of Israel became the focal point of American Jewish life and philanthropy, as well as the symbol around which American Jews united. At the same time, American Jews worked in the years following World War II to reinvigorate American Jewish life. Five major themes defined the immediate postwar decades:

1. the decline of antisemitism
2. a massive movement of American Jews from cities to suburbs
3. the emergence of an American Jewish communal order emphasizing Israel and political liberalism
4. a large internal immigration of Jews to the American Sun Belt (particularly Los Angeles and Miami)
5. glowing optimism concerning the American Jewish community and its future.

Burgeoning economic growth, increasing popular acceptance of religious and cultural pluralism, the high education achievements of native-born Jews, and an overpowering desire on the part of many Jews to "make it" in America all contributed during these decades to a spectacular rise of American Jews to positions of authority and respect within the general American community.

http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/twenty/tkeyinfo/jewishexpb.htm

Now just compare this with the circumstances of African Americans during the same time period from 1948. AA's were already in a far worse position in this country before the War and things didn't suddenly transform immediately following the war. There is no comparison with the opportunities Jewish Americans had versus African Americans.

You are making a lot of assumption about what I think or said.
Its more like what you think about what I think.
During Civil Right Movement AA and American Jews were fighting together against racism and segregation and we achieved great success.
Unfortunately some political leaders in black movement at some point chose antisemitism as ideology and decided to part ways with Jewish democratic movement. The Black Muslim influence with it natural animosity against Jews as well as anti-Judaism undertones in Christianity are also to blame.
As per Israel AA had a similar opportunity in Liberia which failed for many reasons...
Integration is a compromise and Jews muster the art of compromise for 5555 years we keep counting.
The main thing we are not generalizing our enemies to not became as bigoted as they are.
As soon as you start hanging all dogs on faceless "whites" you get real white racist to get away with murder.
Every person is caring his own load and I know you do your part and more for your community.
And every racist is caring his own own responsibility for his actions which should not be flattened around people he looks alike basically bailing him out.

What i've been trying unsuccessfully to point out to you is that there have been and continue to be MASSIVE impediments to advancement for African Americans, that did not and do not exist in the same way for Jewish Americans. Certainly there has been and continues to be Anti-Semitism, but you seem incapable of understanding the reasons why African Americans protest and complain about how they are treated.

I know all about the history of Jewish and African Americans in this country. The good and the bad. That is not what this is about tho. SYSTEMIC RACISM is not about individual people and so you clearly miss the point that whether a Group or Individual has racist views is not the most critical issue. THE ENTIRE SYSTEM was BUILT to be RACIST!!! I can show you all of the long standing structural foundations of this country that still impact AA's negatively. Jews did not have the same level of impediments throughout the history of this country. There is no comparison.

The one thing I don't need a lesson in is White Racists. When I was a child in the Early 1970's I was chased along a country road by a car full of Klan Members and thank God they only wanted to scare me. This was in my mother's home town of Benson, North Carolina where I would visit in the Summer Months. The Klan is still active there to this day.

http://abc11.com/archive/8828221/

NIX....it's very difficult to make another race see your point of view. Especially over a chat like this. AA's spend so much energy trying to make others see their perspective. Its great dialogue and probably great education for those that don't know or understand. AA's have come a long way, but for some reason, it seems like it's only a few steps forward, when you look at the bigger picture.

I have some friends that are not AA's and not racist, and didn't vote for Trump. The problem is they didn't vote for Hillary either. And they don't understand how not voting for Hillary, is a vote for Trump. But until we as a human race (full of different colors) can have a healthy dialogue, without each others emotions getting in the way, we will start heading in the right direction. We (the human race) will start connecting history with the present, so that we can see the future.

The good thing about Trump winning the election, is that the human race is now forced to come together and figure this thing out. Trump is unearthing all the buried racism and bigotry thats been buried for years. But the only way to clean out an infection, is to expose it.

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:- we have not a "race" problem but African American nation problem. We just overlooked that new nation of people get created with specific culture which has no place yet to safe-realize and even cannot yet identifie itself. Racism is also there but this is not the major issue.

I'm sorry but you're going to have to more clearly explain this statement. I can't understand what you're trying to say here. What do you mean by "African American nation problem"? What do you mean by "new nation of people created with specific culture which has no place"?

I'm really not sure what you are saying and want you to elaborate on these points.

Every nation need place to realize it suverenity. It may be independent country or cultural enclave inside multi-national country.
It can be territorial or just cultural identity.
I believe that Afro-Americans are a new nation in the process of self-realization.
There are clearly many people of African race who are not African Americans while leaving in USA. They are representing other nations - like Iruba, Nigerians, etc.
All of then can be a subject of racism. But for African Americans it is obviously more to it.
American nation is a mix of emigrants from all over the world who came here at their own will and many with no intentions to maintain their national identity but rather became American nationals politically and culturally. It is not true however for many people who are there not by their will or were there before colonization like Native Americans and Northers People. They want to maintain their national identity separate from US Americans. And they have all rights to do so.
Same true for African Americans. But I think they just start to realize this national identity.
I think the whole American society will need to realize and embrace it. But this process is complicated and just starting.
It is definitely bigger that this Trump-no-Trump distractions.

WOW! You have a lot of concepts in your post. To simplify things from my perspective I won't try to address all of your points. Let me just say this, African Americans have ALWAYS been part of the fabric of this country! Even when we weren't considered to be so.

AA's have fought in every war this country ever fought. After gaining freedom AA's could've taken violent revenge on a massive scale but in fact that was relatively rare! All AA's ever wanted was to be treated fairly and with respect and to pursue the American Dream!

There was NEVER any justification for violence and oppression inflicted upon AA's. The restraint under the circumstances is a badge of honor and a rebuke to this nation that they were treated so poorly for so long. For what reason were AA's denied their rights or mistreated??? There is no reason other than pure evil and greed.

To this very day this country has never fully lived up to the debt they owe AA's. There would be no America as we know it without AA's. Our story is inextricably intertwined with the history of this country. We are America just as much if not more than most since we gave all for this country and received so little of the spoils of success we helped create. If you don't know what I'm talking about then go look up the many resources on how much AA's contributed to the fortunes of this country.

This is all fair and true.
My question is how you identify yourself and AA people inside America - as a unique nation which need to be treated as such or you want to dissolve into American nation which has no concept or race, nationality, and cultural identity other that American? You cannot have it both ways - it is the choice to be made.
As far as someone owe something to somebody I do not believe in this.
I owe nothing to any nation and no nation owe anything to me.
I rely only on myself and owe only what I managed to achieve.
And I give same right to every other human being to do same.
If you look at the history of the world no nation that was enslaved, murdered, tortured, and displaced get their debt paid off by anybody.
There is no fairness in history. Until oppressed get on right side of the gun they get nothing back.

African Americans didn't choose to be set apart! That was imposed upon them and to a large degree still goes on. AA's wanted to live in a colorblind society but it was the White majority that did not want it. You really don't know or understand the dynamics of race in this country. There is much I could teach you about the TRUTH of this country but you have to want to know the truth.

Natives were mistreated but did receive some recompense and land of their own! Japanese Americans that were wrongfully held in concentration camps received recompense. This country became great largely off the backs of African Slaves and all they did was kick us in the teeth!

Just so we're clear AA's are a large part of the identity and culture of America you can't separate us out of history and have the same country. There's no facet of what made America what it is that doesn't have a connection to the African slaves. That includes the Revolution and the Constitution. Everything was based off of the system of slavery and how that allowed this country to become great.

OK
So all wealth America has is build by slaves...
The rest of the people were just a bunch of cowboys drinking in saloons...
Now what? They should go back to Europe from were they unlawfully came to grab the land, kill and enslave people, and burn the crosses...
And leave everything they grab to local and displaced people to restore the historical fairness.
Obviously it is absurd.
No one has power and right to separate people in any kind of groups.
And it is not needed as they separating themselves without anyone help.
What Native and Japaneses receive is a joke comparing to all dignity that was taking away from them. Not only dignity, everything.
And they will not get it back ever. Even if the whole world will want to give it back to them.
Its gone and not returnable. Last year snow.
The history of the human kind is the history of genocide, destruction, wars, oppression, and injustice.
This how we came around. All of us.
And as we will continue to berry our had in the past and finding enemies and animosities we will never get out of it.
Time to give everyone the clean slate and leave together as one.

Like I said you really have no clue about this subject. I'm my family historian and in my research I've had to also research the family of the people who enslaved my ancestors. I have extensive records on every descendent from the man who enslaved my people. All the land and profits made going back 258 years.

In the census records they actually did detailed financial statements so I have access to just how much money they made off my ancestors hard work. I have copies of the actual record of purchase of my ancestor back in 1758! I have a nearly complete record of births and deaths from that time to the present and I can tell you it is life changing to see it all organized into a coherent record.

I'm planning to visit the area where my ancestors slaved away on plantations and visit the graves. I hope to also find where they may have buried my original ancestors back before they marked the graves of slaves. I can tell you that it's not time to just "give everyone a clean slate and live together as one". This isn't ancient history! I've got relatives still living that lived much of this horrible history.

His challenge is not a lack of understanding, it's indifference, lack of respect for others and a single minded need to rationalize anything that benefits him, however remotely into an absolute positive. It's not an uncommon combination in general.

You guys are amazing in how microscopic and self-centric is your vision of the world.
Little mind in little space.
Good luck living in your little box and slowly carry you little home on your shoulders while the world moving forward at the speed of light.
As far as researching my family - 256 members of it were burned in the chambers on Nazy camps. What compensation should I get from Germans and other Nazy alliance nations? And what is will account for for 6 million people including 2 millions children. How much wealth this slaughtered people will be able to create for human race?
And nobody want to compensate... what a pity...

Microscopic and self centric? Big words and completely irrelevant and out of context like everything else you post. Nothing I said or Nixluva said had anything to do with Nazi Germany. We are talking US history and the role of racism. Try and keep up with the conversation.

Obviously the Jewish Holocaust was horrific. I don't know much about the aftermath and what Germany did to try and apologize for what happened but I do know that this country has not really ever dealt with the issue of Slavery and the wage theft, murder, oppression etc for hundreds of years!!!

In this election we heard a lot about the plight of the White Working Class. They want a return to the good old days. What about AA's? There NEVER were any Good Old Days for AA's. As they say we're still waiting for our 40 Acres and a Mule so to speak.

My Great, Great Grandfather and his children were slaves. A month after the Civil War ended the Freedman's Beureau ordered the former slaves to sign Labor Contracts with the former Slaveholders!
They did not want to. They wanted the land they were promised. Not free land but land they could lease and eventually buy!!!

The Slaveholders convinced the government not to do this. So my Great, Great Grandfather who like most slaves was illiterate signed the work contract with the very man who had enslaved him and all of my ancestors. This was in 1865. By 1870 my Great, Great Grandfather came to own 212 Acres, a home and a Sugar Cane Mill. He employed other people. Unfortunately they lost it all in the 1920's during the Great Depression.

Nix - you need to educate yourself more about world history... at least recent.
It will give you a good perspective about you own history and help to understand what are most of the American people are about.
Most of Americans came from other countries and cultures long after slavery was abolished.
I agree that they must study the history of their new home but it should go both ways.

Forgive me for being more focused on the U.S. and the history of my people and this country! SMDH!
I'm fully aware of the history of this country and immigration into this country. What you and most of the people who came here after slavery may not realize is that you benefited from the period of Slavery but the only people who have not are the descendants of those slaves!!!

Why is it OK for you to be smug and disinterested in how this country became great and the benefits you now enjoy came at a price. A price paid by my ancestors!!! You should be the very type of person most concerned with the injustices done to Natives and AA's. Your callous indifference is not a good look for you!!!

We all are benefiting from body of work of people from all countries and ages who build human civilization, African Americans included. I give all of them equal due. I do not know how to make history fair. I do not think it is possible.
At lease it was never fair to most of the people. My believe is however that this is not a reason for hate and animosity. Especially against people who have nothing to do with what happened in the past.

OK first off, African Americans have been the most forgiving and LEAST hate driven people in this country DESPITE the hundreds of years of abuse and denial of rights. You are making a HUGE mistake in how you are assessing the situation here. Perhaps if you spent just a little time actually learning about this subject then you'd know what the heck you were talking about.

African Americans greatly outnumbered Whites in many areas of the South after the war. It wasn't until massive European Immigration from the North and overseas that this changed. There were false fears and rumors spread of a massive attack by former slaves to inflict Revenge on the White population. This was a lie and NEVER happened. Some Racist Whites spread the rumors to justify violence against Blacks. In fact the AA's were mostly peaceful, if not fully trusting of the White population, but all they wanted was to be treated fairly and to have freedom to live in peace, but that's not what they got from the White population.

These are the minutes from the historic Meeting between General Sherman of the Union Army and a collection of Black leaders in Savannah. Gen. Sherman wanted to know what the African Americans wanted after they were freed from Slavery. It was this meeting that led to the Infamous 40 Acres and a Mule promise made to African Americans:

Garrison Frazier being chosen by the persons present to express their common sentiments upon the matters of inquiry, makes answers to inquiries as follows:

First: State what your understanding is in regard to the acts of Congress and President Lincoln's [Emancipation] proclamation, touching the condition of the colored people in the Rebel States.

Answer–So far as I understand President Lincoln's proclamation to the Rebellious States, it is, that if they would lay down their arms and submit to the laws of the United States before the first of January, 1863, all should be well; but if they did not, then all the slaves in the Rebel States should be free henceforth and forever. That is what I understood.

Second–State what you understand by Slavery and the freedom that was to be given by the President's proclamation.

Answer–Slavery is, receiving by irresistible power the work of another man, and not by his consent. The freedom, as I understand it, promised by the proclamation, is taking us from under the yoke of bondage, and placing us where we could reap the fruit of our own labor, take care of ourselves and assist the Government in maintaining our freedom.

Third: State in what manner you think you can take care of yourselves, and how can you best assist the Government in maintaining your freedom.

Answer: The way we can best take care of ourselves is to have land, and turn it and till it by our own labor–that is, by the labor of the women and children and old men; and we can soon maintain ourselves and have something to spare. And to assist the Government, the young men should enlist in the service of the Government, and serve in such manner as they may be wanted. (The Rebels told us that they piled them up and made batteries of them, and sold them to Cuba; but we don't believe that.) We want to be placed on land until we are able to buy it and make it our own.

Fourth: State in what manner you would rather live–whether scattered among the whites or in colonies by yourselves.

Answer: I would prefer to live by ourselves, for there is a prejudice against us in the South that will take years to get over; but I do not know that I can answer for my brethren. [Mr. Lynch says he thinks they should not be separated, but live together. All the other persons present, being questioned one by one, answer that they agree with Brother Frazier.]1

Fifth: Do you think that there is intelligence enough among the slaves of the South to maintain themselves under the Government of the United States and the equal protection of its laws, and maintain good and peaceable relations among yourselves and with your neighbors?

Answer–I think there is sufficient intelligence among us to do so.

Sixth–State what is the feeling of the black population of the South toward the Government of the United States; what is the understanding in respect to the present war–its causes and object, and their disposition to aid either side. State fully your views.

Answer–I think you will find there are thousands that are willing to make any sacrifice to assist the Government of the United States, while there are also many that are not willing to take up arms. I do not suppose there are a dozen men that are opposed to the Government. I understand, as to the war, that the South is the aggressor. President Lincoln was elected President by a majority of the United States, which guaranteed him the right of holding the office and exercising that right over the whole United States. The South, without knowing what he would do, rebelled. The war was commenced by the Rebels before he came into office. The object of the war was not at first to give the slaves their freedom, but the sole object of the war was at first to bring the rebellious States back into the Union and their loyalty to the laws of the United States. Afterward, knowing the value set on the slaves by the Rebels, the President thought that his proclamation would stimulate them to lay down their arms, reduce them to obedience, and help to bring back the Rebel States; and their not doing so has now made the freedom of the slaves a part of the war. It is my opinion that there is not a man in this city that could be started to help the Rebels one inch, for that would be suicide. There were two black men left with the Rebels because they had taken an active part for the Rebels, and thought something might befall them if they stayed behind; but there is not another man. If the prayers that have gone up for the Union army could be read out, you would not get through them these two weeks.

Seventh: State whether the sentiments you now express are those only of the colored people in the city; or do they extend to the colored population through the country? and what are your means of knowing the sentiments of those living in the country?

Answer: I think the sentiments are the same among the colored people of the State. My opinion is formed by personal communication in the course of my ministry, and also from the thousands that followed the Union army, leaving their homes and undergoing suffering. I did not think there would be so many; the number surpassed my expectation.

http://www.freedmen.umd.edu/savmtg.htm

I want to expand at my statement you highlighted and argue using the facts of distant past.
I believe that no person leaving now is responsible for any deeds committed by people of his race, nation, or tribe in the past or present. Everyone is responsible only for what he/she has done or not done in his life personally. There is no "group responsibility". The past id dead, the future is just a dream. There is only one thing that matters and is inevitable - current moment.
The rest is just a destruction.

I have done my best to be a good father to my children and i'm proud of how I raised them. They are all happy, healthy and productive members of society. I'm well aware of the need to live in the present. However, my view on history is that it does matter!!! If you don't know your history and the mistakes of the past you can't avoid repeating them.

I just wanted to make it clear that despite your cynical view on things, African Americans have tried to take charge of their lives and improve their lot in life in this country and for hundreds of years those efforts have been interfered with and it was impossible to fully overcome an ENTIRE SYSTEM built to hold them down!!!

I have the 258 year history of my family thru my father's line. I have my 90 and 94 year old Grandmothers and 70 year old father and mother here to testify to much of the injustice of this country towards AA's. My 51 years of life are added to that litany. My MANY ancestors who fought for this country even tho they were mistreated by this country. Starting with my Great, Great Grandfather Abraham Gooden, who was a slave but found his way to the Union Army and fought as a Private in the 24th Regiment U.S. Colored Troops. My Grandfather who got a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star for his service in Italy and Germany and his brothers who fought in WWI and WWII. My Dad who was in Vietnam. I think their lives and struggles deserve to be spoken for, remembered and honored. That things are still unequal bothers me greatly. I'm sorry for you that you can't empathize and have taken a very cynical view despite being a descendent of people who were also greatly wronged not so long ago.

I cannot see anything cynical in what I said.
I do not feel any guilt for the things I haven't done.
And so I do not blame others for what they haven't done.
If my people will not be able to move on after every massacre, segregation, and humiliation we will never survive and rise even hire.
We forgive but not forget. This how our straight is rising.
So you also can obtain this power. It is all inside your mind and in your hands.

You seem to be very Cynical and Insensitive IMO. For one thing do you think that AA's haven't been fighting and struggling against great odds for their entire existence in this country??? You are assuming that all we had to do was just WORK HARDER and everything would've worked out great for us like the Jews!!! You are woefully ignorant of how society really worked here and still works in many areas. I find your callous disregard for the impacts of Systemic Racism astounding! You my friend are ignorant of many things and IMO people who think like you are a large part of the problem. By refusing to accept the evidence of the Systemic Racism:

You are part of the crowd that doesn't see the persistent Voter Suppression that has gone on.
You are part of the crowd that doesn't see the history of Redlining and how that impacted Black Families.
You are part of the crowd that doesn't see the impact of Predatory Lending that has robbed Black and Latino Families and ruined lives.
You are part of the crowd that doesn't see the devastation of the Racially Biased Judicial System, over Policing and Prison Industrial Complex that has ravaged the Black and Latino Communities.
You are part of the crowd that doesn't see the inequities throughout this system that have ALWAYS existed and keep minorities from achieving more of the American Dream.

Instead you seem to think it's all in our heads and that we should have nothing standing in our way of achieving more success. You know cuz it's all in the past and that kind of stuff doesn't happen anymore. Unlike Jewish Americans, African Americans could not even come close to blending in with White Society and climbing up ladders to success:

With its establishment in 1948, the State of Israel became the focal point of American Jewish life and philanthropy, as well as the symbol around which American Jews united. At the same time, American Jews worked in the years following World War II to reinvigorate American Jewish life. Five major themes defined the immediate postwar decades:

1. the decline of antisemitism
2. a massive movement of American Jews from cities to suburbs
3. the emergence of an American Jewish communal order emphasizing Israel and political liberalism
4. a large internal immigration of Jews to the American Sun Belt (particularly Los Angeles and Miami)
5. glowing optimism concerning the American Jewish community and its future.

Burgeoning economic growth, increasing popular acceptance of religious and cultural pluralism, the high education achievements of native-born Jews, and an overpowering desire on the part of many Jews to "make it" in America all contributed during these decades to a spectacular rise of American Jews to positions of authority and respect within the general American community.

http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/twenty/tkeyinfo/jewishexpb.htm

Now just compare this with the circumstances of African Americans during the same time period from 1948. AA's were already in a far worse position in this country before the War and things didn't suddenly transform immediately following the war. There is no comparison with the opportunities Jewish Americans had versus African Americans.

You are making a lot of assumption about what I think or said.
Its more like what you think about what I think.
During Civil Right Movement AA and American Jews were fighting together against racism and segregation and we achieved great success.
Unfortunately some political leaders in black movement at some point chose antisemitism as ideology and decided to part ways with Jewish democratic movement. The Black Muslim influence with it natural animosity against Jews as well as anti-Judaism undertones in Christianity are also to blame.
As per Israel AA had a similar opportunity in Liberia which failed for many reasons...
Integration is a compromise and Jews muster the art of compromise for 5555 years we keep counting.
The main thing we are not generalizing our enemies to not became as bigoted as they are.
As soon as you start hanging all dogs on faceless "whites" you get real white racist to get away with murder.
Every person is caring his own load and I know you do your part and more for your community.
And every racist is caring his own own responsibility for his actions which should not be flattened around people he looks alike basically bailing him out.

What i've been trying unsuccessfully to point out to you is that there have been and continue to be MASSIVE impediments to advancement for African Americans, that did not and do not exist in the same way for Jewish Americans. Certainly there has been and continues to be Anti-Semitism, but you seem incapable of understanding the reasons why African Americans protest and complain about how they are treated.

I know all about the history of Jewish and African Americans in this country. The good and the bad. That is not what this is about tho. SYSTEMIC RACISM is not about individual people and so you clearly miss the point that whether a Group or Individual has racist views is not the most critical issue. THE ENTIRE SYSTEM was BUILT to be RACIST!!! I can show you all of the long standing structural foundations of this country that still impact AA's negatively. Jews did not have the same level of impediments throughout the history of this country. There is no comparison.

The one thing I don't need a lesson in is White Racists. When I was a child in the Early 1970's I was chased along a country road by a car full of Klan Members and thank God they only wanted to scare me. This was in my mother's home town of Benson, North Carolina where I would visit in the Summer Months. The Klan is still active there to this day.

http://abc11.com/archive/8828221/

I agree the issues with underdevelopment of communities and individuals are obvious.
I clearly understand the roots of the issues on hand are in slavery, segregation, and institutional racism, as well in regular racism.
What you proposing to do to overcome the issues?
What personally every citizen can do?
Do you think some additional benefits are required based on some citizen identified as AA, some preferential treatment to provide free education, jobs, counseling, housing, etc.? How to identify if person is AA? Like using the type of research you do for your family to make sure the person is descendant from slaves not came from Africa or Brazil, or Caribbean later? How to make this all acceptable by all AA community as many can perceive this all stuff as outright racism? How to make sure help is used for bettering of people life not to enrich politicians, gangs, and how to avoid corruption on bureaucratic and personal level?
Its a lot of practical questions. I never hear any practical suggestions from you on all this.
You justified facts that are widely accepted by the society already but how it helps to make things better?

arkrud, it's not about underdevelopment of minority communities! It's about SYSTEMIC inequities and purposeful disenfranchisement. I'm trying to help you to see that there are those who have worked thru all means of power and government to make things harder for AA's and other minorities. It's deeper than you realize.

You need to understand the way that things have developed in this country from the start impact how people live up to this day. The history is important because it explains WHY things are the way they are now. None of this just started recently.

You seem to think that this is about making amends with some "additional benefits" or "preferential treatment". Man the issue is that this system has NEVER BEEN FAIR or JUST FOR AA'S! NEVER!!! The inequities are BUILT IN. You can't see it because you don't care to see it.

Ex-loan officer claims Wells Fargo targeted black communities for shoddy loans
By Ylan Q. Mui June 12, 2012

For nearly a decade, Beth Jacobson lived inside the vast machinery of subprime mortgages that shook the nation’s economy.

In sworn court testimony, she described watching loan officers comb through heavily African American areas such as Baltimore and Prince George’s County, forging relationships with churches and community groups to sell their members shoddy mortgages. She says she processed loans for homeowners with sterling credit ratings with higher interest rates than they needed to pay. And she says she pumped out millions of dollars in mortgages to people with no paperwork and low incomes, becoming Wells Fargo’s top-producing loan officer.

Baltimore police have racial bias, Justice Department reports

By Emanuella Grinberg, CNN
Updated 9:35 PM ET, Wed August 10, 2016

(CNN)A Justice Department investigation found that the Baltimore Police Department engages in unconstitutional practices that lead to disproportionate rates of stops, searches and arrests of African-Americans, and excessive use of force against juveniles and people with mental health disabilities.

The Department of Justice monitored the department's policing methods for more than a year at the request of the Baltimore Police Department, after the 2015 death of Freddie Gray, who suffered a fatal injury while in police custody.

Redlining is Alive and Well—and Evolving
Nine recent, high-profile cases show the discriminatory practice of redlining is not a thing of the past. It’s even spread to your Facebook account.

BRENTIN MOCK @brentinmock Sep 28, 2015

“Redlining,” the practice of banks and real estate agents steering black and Latino families away from predominantly white neighborhoods, is often spoken of in the past tense. We tend to think of it as a vestige of Jim Crow, of a thankfully bygone era when people wore racism on their sleeves and wove it into neighborhood engineering without repercussion.

Some recent cases, however, show that not only is redlining alive today, but that it’s also evolved in many cases into racist practices that aren’t as detectable as they were during Jim Crow.

I COULD GO ON AND ON. It's not just one thing. It's the entire fabric of Society and it's not just a case of AA's trying harder or some simple fix. This system has been broken since DAY ONE! When Slavery ended AA's had NOTHING! They thrust us out into a world knowing we were mostly Illiterate and vulnerable and they knew this. For a very brief period of time there were some efforts made to make up for the destitute state they had put us in but they reneged on all of that and left us to the evil intents of our former Slave owners who inflicted revenge for their loss in the Civil War for the next 100 years. That racist system they built is still very much in place today only less obvious.

holfresh wrote:

djsunyc wrote:what these f ckin idiot republicans in north carolina are doing is f cking criminal.

Greatest democracy on earth..

Greatest Federal Republic on earth.

djsunyc wrote:

blkexec wrote:
The good thing about Trump winning the election, is that the human race is now forced to come together and figure this thing out. Trump is unearthing all the buried racism and bigotry that's been buried for years. But the only way to clean out an infection, is to expose it.

there is a big part of me that believes we are not politically correct enough. n-words, the word nazi, mysoginistic terms (even something as easily dismissed as barkley saying the warriors play "girly" bball) - i feel all that should be suppressed and not said out loud. the more it's said and the more folks simply say "stop being so sensitive" and double down on it, the more it still looked at as an "ok" way to feel and believe. we need to speed up the progress and i think by being more politically correct, it will.

by forcing it to stay hidden behind closed doors i feel that it just dissipates and goes away. folks need to understand that racism/bigotry/mysoginy should never be accepted by anybody at any level. trump winning imho brings it out to the open but not in a good way. now folks feel empowered and vindicated in those feelings as opposed to being ashamed of them. like those white folks that turned their back in missouri as black players are announced - they would've NEVER done that if trump doesn't win. they may still have those feelings but it would've been suppressed and not out there for the public to see. now you have some kids and impressionable minds thinking it's ok to do that.

i understand your POV though - if it's out in the open, we are forced to discuss it. and maybe that's a better way to progress but i don't have that much faith in the american people to do that. i see more doubling down on it instead of trying to work things out. (from both sides of the country).

Curtailing speech does not and will not create equality. All the PC in the world didn't make Trump supporters less racist (not saying they are all racist). PC is just a band aid. If I stop saying "girly", I don't stop thinking of women in some weak sexist stereotype. To me PC is useless. let people say what they think. It's better to know the score than to think you are making progress eliminating racism when in reality it is probably on the rise.

djsunyc wrote:

"Comedian Jon Laster was performing at the Gotham Comedy Club in Chelsea, Manhattan just a week after the election when he reached “a boiling point” of personal frustration, Rolling Stone reports.

Laster recounted how at the end of the night’s sets, a white middle-aged individual approached him at the bar and said, “Man you were really funny, and you’re black!”

The man continued, “Since Trump won the election, there’s a lot America needs to reconsider. We need to put that ‘politically correct’ stuff to bed; now I should be able to call you ‘n-word.'”

Laster then recounted how he had to hold himself back from punching the man. After the incident, he wrote on his Facebook, “I’ve spent the entire weekend disgusted that we have to deal with this and disgusted that I didn’t break his jaw it’s not an Alabama problem.”

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/12/white-man-taunts-black-comedian-trumps-victory-entitles-me-to-call-you-a-nir/

validated and empowered.

meloshouldgo - what does him coming out and saying this change?

DJ, Do you regret becoming a Craptors fan? Confess to the mods and return to the fold. Beats being on the fringe. REPENT!!!!!!