arkrud wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Uptown wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I think this is just a common sense answer from my own personal view point. I think its pretty simplistic. African Americans are responsible for a disproportionate amount of violent crime so the police who are in charge of that area have their "eye" on them much more so than other races. I guess from a cops point of view--he is scared or at a minimum heightened when confronted with the possibility of dealing with a higher source of danger. Remember these guys put their lives on the line every day--so you have to factor in their mindset. I think it really is as simple as that. If black people believe that white people have it out for them--my friends--you are dead wrong. White people green people yellow people--most of us have an every day responsibility of family and we are to busy to think about anything other than immediate issue. If it wasnt for what I heard on TV I probably wouldve steered clear of this thread. I believe strongly that Im a decent and honest fellow and answering questions honestly--even if they potentially offend--although im not trying to do that--is just reasonable back and forth recourse on an issue thats been getting a lot of attention. Its disturbing to hear--as a white person--what I believe is some true deep seeded hatred African Americans seem to have. I dont believe in the hood nor do I believe in excuse of race. If race was such an issue why dont Chinese people complain?

My dad died when I was 8. I went to PS 230 in Brooklyn until I was 10 and moved to a small condo in Ct with my two brothers and Mom. I shared a room with my twin brother for 18 years--two pretty big guys in a small room. I didnt have the money for special sneakers or clothes--and I lived in a town that had some money. The money I had was working a paper route that I had to get up at 6 am before school to do shuffling snow or cutting grass. When i was 15 and old enough to work I worked washing dishes at a Chinese restaurant(maybe the worst job on Earth:) I loved and played all sports--I was tall and ended up being a very decent football player. I dedicated time to work hard on my school work every day--no one told me too--my Mom worked---I took it upon myself to be aggressive and compete on my studies while putting effort into working out working--I mean I had ZERO "privilege" believe me. On top of it I was Jewish--and Ive heard my fair amount of derogatory BS--but I just dealt with it and went about my day--majority of people liked my brother and I. My goal was to play football at Syracuse and become a gym teacher or sportscaster because that is what I loved. I ended up at Uconn and had to pay for my own school and soon found out the difference between being good at sports in hS and college were two different beasts--but I played 4 years and worked hard anyway. I stayed and paid at Uconn for 6 years--all the way to an MBA. I wasnt given a penny for help from anyone in my family--I paid for myself by working in the summer. I ended up in the business side by chance--simply thats what my first roommate was there for--so I went with it as well. I got a very decent job right away in NY after graduating--yada yada 8 years later I dont have to work anymore---some luck there and some cahones--but it was built on hard hard work from a young age with absolutely ZERO privilege. Nothing--so when I hear that I dont get it and I dont personally believe in it. I believe in Obama and thats why I voted for him twice. You have to work hard in this world and those who dont get left behind and bitch. Sorry white people dont hate black people yellow people or green people==really I dont even think about it nor do i care because to me its a non issue.. If I was black and lived in the hood--Id work three F jobs and would get the F out to move my family to a decent place. And those who live there and bthc about it--thats on them--no one in this world forces them to be there. And finally like I said--cut the crime rate down and my bet is a lot of good things will happen.

First off, stop generalizing and painting everyone with a broad brush. The majority of black people who live in the inner-city are decent hard working families and quite a few of them have worked hard and are working hard to move to safer areas and or make their community a safer place to live. Not all white people hate blacks, but to think there aren't whites who do hate blacks, again would be ignorant on your part.

The fact that you are saying the color of a persons skin is a non-issue is either ignorance on your part or denial....Do you agree that there is systemic racism in this country?

It persists but I think it has lessened significantly in the last twenty years. It'd help a hell of a lot if the fabulously and unprecedentedly wealthy black athletes like Carmelo Anthony gave up two-thirds of their earnings to inner city issues. Has that notion crossed your mind? To ask him or others to give back? Money talks and genuine untold wealth can help.

I was always of the opinion that black athletes that make it out of the inner city should give back in some way whether its money for youth programs, investing in black businesses or just to give their time. Jim Brown is not acknowledged enough for the charitable work he has done especially going into some of the worse crime infested areas and re-mediating meetings between gang leaders, etc. More athletes and entertainers need to do this because they are revered by many young kids in the inner city and have the resources and influence to provoke change.

For as much sh#t as Marbury has taken, the one great thing he did was help create affordable sneakers for kids. That was big and innovative and I was hoping some athletes would follow his lead.

No question Athletes being more involved will help tremendously. The best and most effective solution is better parenting and more stable homes regardless of what is happening in the streets, education and the job market.

Too simplistic, my friend...and CashMoney himself, can attest to the power of peer pressure.

Parenting and home stability go hand in hand with economic issues. I saw this all the time as a teacher, parents having to work multiple jobs not being able to supervise their children properly.

I saw the thing CashMoney talked about- kids being pressured to be part of groupings which did not appreciate the importance of education.

A late former colleague talked about one African-American student, who I only knew from my work in the Deans Office, as being very intelligent, but influenced by kids who saw the education thing as uncool.

The classic theory is that most things fashioning personality and actions come from the family...but as an educator of many years I simply cannot say that this is always the case, and I have too many examples of this during my career to doubt the power of peer influences.

I wish it was that easy to take the straight and narrow path. I think I was lucky. My father was a teacher and Athletic Director, but he still had to work extra hours to raise 8 kids while my mother gave up her career to be an in-home mother. We were lacking in some things- didn't get a color TV until I was in college, but we had enough money to reside in a nice neighborhood and live somewhat comfortably.

Hard for me to understand poverty myself, though I've seen it, and my school had a large population eligible for free school lunches...a sign of relative poverty or financial duress.

In some cases, your way of thinking works, but the world is much more complicated, IMO.

Walter and Alpha,

I think you both as well as CashMoney cited peer pressure/ influence of kids as factors in viewing education as uncool. I have cited the 73% out of wedlock birthrate for blacks, a number that grew exponentially across all groups including whites with the War on Poverty legislation in the early 60's. Are both, peer thinking and out of wedlock births, cultural norms that need to change?

Backtracking a bit, but having lived through them, one of the biggest blows for progressives and blacks were the 1960's, a period of time which should have been the beginning of a transformation for many in this country.

Politically, the assassinations of John and Robert Kennedy, Malcolm X, and, perhaps more significantly, Martin Luther King, set the Liberal/Progressive/Civil Rights movement back, and in some ways, neutered it. The Vietnam War overshadowed the Great Society and Civil Rights movement, and also affected the nation's politics, and was a tremendous setback for certain groups in this nation.

In general folks are looking at "What," but not "Why," and this is a problem.

Some of the "solutions" presented by folks are ignorantly simplistic. People take the exception and then make it a rule...simply makes no sense.

Most problems seem rooted in poverty and a lack of opportunity. Identifying the "causes of these causes" is not a simple thing.

Racism/prejudice is part of the problem, but not the only thing causing the problem. You really want to create a society where everyone has an equal opportunity to succeed, and that society doesn't exist at this point?

A good post that raises other considerations but I do think some are looking at the whys and raising points about what is holding back a subgroup of blacks from exiting poverty while other minorities advanced without the supports that the Great Society promised. I say the same about sections of the white population. There was the war on Poverty before there was the War on Drugs and it didnt and hasn't accomplish much despite numerous enactments of legislation over the years. The pros and cons of welfare has been argued as it can be trapping despite its merits. Sensitive subject but the Irish, Italians, Jews immigrants faced real discrimination going back and the Asians and many other Eastern immigrants have advanced as a group despite many barriers. Slavery obviously stripped away so much but what is perplexing is that black family structure appeared to have been stronger in the early 60's than before many of these progressive policies were enacted and by some accounts African emigrates are making more strides than Native blacks despite the view that racism still reigns widely. I have witnessed blatant racism to blacks as a younger person and I have also witnessed a different society notwithstanding flaws and inequities that still exist . There is still opportunity here and that is why immigrants flock to get here .I had a cousin who worked for the late Reginald Lewis and a nephew who works for Ronald F Johnson company so blacks can achieve with anyone but education and talent are the great equalizers , the ability to deliver and access to it and well as desire to embrace are keys. Right now, I see a growing divide in the black society between the haves and the have nots and the one difference is the haves are educated and motivated and the have nots are generally not. The same can be said about white society. Identifying the causes of causes seems doable, it is addressing them on multiple fronts that is not simple

I do not think this issues are isolated to US. The human civilization as a whole is at a crossroads.
The societies do not need so many active workers as we have hands available.
And this tendency will only increase.
To have stable society while the population will descent from its current pick to some reasonable level of 2-3 billions world-wide will be challenging.
We need to start using wealth we collected to provide reasonable life-hood to people who will not be able to find any occupation to support them-self.
So far instead we allowing crime, drugs, war, and chaos do the job for us. This can be a self defeating proposition. And for some areas of the world it already played out with civilization descent into primitive age or even case to exist.
As no easy solutions available we in US try to mask this core issue with various race, gender, class related concepts.
In fact this all just a reflection of the same core problem.
US as a country consolidated enormous wealth to create an island of prosperity in the see of despair.
And we have enormous firepower to reinforce this isolation.
This comes with moral implications but provides a huge opportunity to preserve and advance human civilization without huge setbacks we saw in the history like after fall of Rome Empire, the civilizations in Americas, Egypt, China, etc.
The task of this magnitude required enormous leadership which is currently lacking.

Akrud, Not sure I understand your post or where to begin . World wide population growth is actually slow right now and low fertility rates in many countries are causing a different set of problems, the present concern is greater production than consumption of most commodities these days. The pop. growth of the U.S. is low , think 0.07 , and minorities especially hispanics have the highest fertility rate and population growth and that will need to be supported by education leading to jobs. A Brooking Institution study that applies to all races and ethnic groups espoused 3 general rules to HELP avoid poverty. 1)Graduate high school, do not have children unless you are married and do not get married until you are over 21, and have a full time job. Their general findings were if you followed these rules then the chance of poverty would only be 2% and the chances of being middle class would increase to 74%. If all 3 rules are broken then you have 76% of poverty and just a 7% of middle class. Trends are moving the opposite way for out of wedlock births for all racial groups. Another problem for most people of all races these days is that educational requirements to just keep rising. Think the avg pay for hs graduate is only 28k which doesnt suffice to raising a family so welfare enters the pic, even millennials with undergraduate degrees realize that is not ensuring what it once did so you seeing more advanced degrees that separates as it cost monies and entrepreneurship that require connections. Despite, I think every one here agrees that solid education from an early age for all is key and must be delivered and embraced otherwise the nation will still have problems with poverty that will hinder progress from other reforms. The early black leaders mentioned by others, Marcus Garvey, Booker Washington, DuBois had some differences in views but all understood and stressed the importance of education. As far as Whats ,I do believe that black history as a stand alone subject should be taught to all so there can be greater understanding and appreciation of what has occurred, what has been accomplished and what can be done. I do not pretend to walk in a black person's shoes but I wonder if many people know of Black Wall Street , might emanate pride and shame but also hope in what is possible for minority communities if all parties, both black and white, invest and pursue from the ground up

I do believe that the process of populating decrease worldwide will accelerate.
In US we will have some increase due to immigration but I do not believe it will be significant.
And mostly the increase will be due to live expectancy not birth rate increase.

As far as minorities go I believe it is about ability to adapt to mainstream culture.
New emigrants are not taking anything for grunted and psychologically ready to work their way up from position of disadvantage.
Native minorities including African Americans (who are not emigrants by choose) are expecting to be in better position by birth.
This of course is not happening for many reasons and creates internal conflict, desire for entitlements, and sense of discrimination.
The culture of self-improvement for survival put nation like Jews, Koreans, and Armenians alike in the top achievers of human civilization as they were not in the position to get anything for grunted but rather being discriminated anywhere they live.
This is not anyone fault but rater the way civilization evolved.

Cartman718 wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

meloanyk wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

Uptown wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Uptown wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I think this is just a common sense answer from my own personal view point. I think its pretty simplistic. African Americans are responsible for a disproportionate amount of violent crime so the police who are in charge of that area have their "eye" on them much more so than other races. I guess from a cops point of view--he is scared or at a minimum heightened when confronted with the possibility of dealing with a higher source of danger. Remember these guys put their lives on the line every day--so you have to factor in their mindset. I think it really is as simple as that. If black people believe that white people have it out for them--my friends--you are dead wrong. White people green people yellow people--most of us have an every day responsibility of family and we are to busy to think about anything other than immediate issue. If it wasnt for what I heard on TV I probably wouldve steered clear of this thread. I believe strongly that Im a decent and honest fellow and answering questions honestly--even if they potentially offend--although im not trying to do that--is just reasonable back and forth recourse on an issue thats been getting a lot of attention. Its disturbing to hear--as a white person--what I believe is some true deep seeded hatred African Americans seem to have. I dont believe in the hood nor do I believe in excuse of race. If race was such an issue why dont Chinese people complain?

My dad died when I was 8. I went to PS 230 in Brooklyn until I was 10 and moved to a small condo in Ct with my two brothers and Mom. I shared a room with my twin brother for 18 years--two pretty big guys in a small room. I didnt have the money for special sneakers or clothes--and I lived in a town that had some money. The money I had was working a paper route that I had to get up at 6 am before school to do shuffling snow or cutting grass. When i was 15 and old enough to work I worked washing dishes at a Chinese restaurant(maybe the worst job on Earth:) I loved and played all sports--I was tall and ended up being a very decent football player. I dedicated time to work hard on my school work every day--no one told me too--my Mom worked---I took it upon myself to be aggressive and compete on my studies while putting effort into working out working--I mean I had ZERO "privilege" believe me. On top of it I was Jewish--and Ive heard my fair amount of derogatory BS--but I just dealt with it and went about my day--majority of people liked my brother and I. My goal was to play football at Syracuse and become a gym teacher or sportscaster because that is what I loved. I ended up at Uconn and had to pay for my own school and soon found out the difference between being good at sports in hS and college were two different beasts--but I played 4 years and worked hard anyway. I stayed and paid at Uconn for 6 years--all the way to an MBA. I wasnt given a penny for help from anyone in my family--I paid for myself by working in the summer. I ended up in the business side by chance--simply thats what my first roommate was there for--so I went with it as well. I got a very decent job right away in NY after graduating--yada yada 8 years later I dont have to work anymore---some luck there and some cahones--but it was built on hard hard work from a young age with absolutely ZERO privilege. Nothing--so when I hear that I dont get it and I dont personally believe in it. I believe in Obama and thats why I voted for him twice. You have to work hard in this world and those who dont get left behind and bitch. Sorry white people dont hate black people yellow people or green people==really I dont even think about it nor do i care because to me its a non issue.. If I was black and lived in the hood--Id work three F jobs and would get the F out to move my family to a decent place. And those who live there and bthc about it--thats on them--no one in this world forces them to be there. And finally like I said--cut the crime rate down and my bet is a lot of good things will happen.

First off, stop generalizing and painting everyone with a broad brush. The majority of black people who live in the inner-city are decent hard working families and quite a few of them have worked hard and are working hard to move to safer areas and or make their community a safer place to live. Not all white people hate blacks, but to think there aren't whites who do hate blacks, again would be ignorant on your part.

The fact that you are saying the color of a persons skin is a non-issue is either ignorance on your part or denial....Do you agree that there is systemic racism in this country?

It persists but I think it has lessened significantly in the last twenty years. It'd help a hell of a lot if the fabulously and unprecedentedly wealthy black athletes like Carmelo Anthony gave up two-thirds of their earnings to inner city issues. Has that notion crossed your mind? To ask him or others to give back? Money talks and genuine untold wealth can help.

I was always of the opinion that black athletes that make it out of the inner city should give back in some way whether its money for youth programs, investing in black businesses or just to give their time. Jim Brown is not acknowledged enough for the charitable work he has done especially going into some of the worse crime infested areas and re-mediating meetings between gang leaders, etc. More athletes and entertainers need to do this because they are revered by many young kids in the inner city and have the resources and influence to provoke change.

For as much sh#t as Marbury has taken, the one great thing he did was help create affordable sneakers for kids. That was big and innovative and I was hoping some athletes would follow his lead.

No question Athletes being more involved will help tremendously. The best and most effective solution is better parenting and more stable homes regardless of what is happening in the streets, education and the job market.

Too simplistic, my friend...and CashMoney himself, can attest to the power of peer pressure.

Parenting and home stability go hand in hand with economic issues. I saw this all the time as a teacher, parents having to work multiple jobs not being able to supervise their children properly.

I saw the thing CashMoney talked about- kids being pressured to be part of groupings which did not appreciate the importance of education.

A late former colleague talked about one African-American student, who I only knew from my work in the Deans Office, as being very intelligent, but influenced by kids who saw the education thing as uncool.

The classic theory is that most things fashioning personality and actions come from the family...but as an educator of many years I simply cannot say that this is always the case, and I have too many examples of this during my career to doubt the power of peer influences.

I wish it was that easy to take the straight and narrow path. I think I was lucky. My father was a teacher and Athletic Director, but he still had to work extra hours to raise 8 kids while my mother gave up her career to be an in-home mother. We were lacking in some things- didn't get a color TV until I was in college, but we had enough money to reside in a nice neighborhood and live somewhat comfortably.

Hard for me to understand poverty myself, though I've seen it, and my school had a large population eligible for free school lunches...a sign of relative poverty or financial duress.

In some cases, your way of thinking works, but the world is much more complicated, IMO.

Walter and Alpha,

I think you both as well as CashMoney cited peer pressure/ influence of kids as factors in viewing education as uncool. I have cited the 73% out of wedlock birthrate for blacks, a number that grew exponentially across all groups including whites with the War on Poverty legislation in the early 60's. Are both, peer thinking and out of wedlock births, cultural norms that need to change?

Backtracking a bit, but having lived through them, one of the biggest blows for progressives and blacks were the 1960's, a period of time which should have been the beginning of a transformation for many in this country.

Politically, the assassinations of John and Robert Kennedy, Malcolm X, and, perhaps more significantly, Martin Luther King, set the Liberal/Progressive/Civil Rights movement back, and in some ways, neutered it. The Vietnam War overshadowed the Great Society and Civil Rights movement, and also affected the nation's politics, and was a tremendous setback for certain groups in this nation.

In general folks are looking at "What," but not "Why," and this is a problem.

Some of the "solutions" presented by folks are ignorantly simplistic. People take the exception and then make it a rule...simply makes no sense.

Most problems seem rooted in poverty and a lack of opportunity. Identifying the "causes of these causes" is not a simple thing.

Racism/prejudice is part of the problem, but not the only thing causing the problem. You really want to create a society where everyone has an equal opportunity to succeed, and that society doesn't exist at this point?

A good post that raises other considerations but I do think some are looking at the whys and raising points about what is holding back a subgroup of blacks from exiting poverty while other minorities advanced without the supports that the Great Society promised. I say the same about sections of the white population. There was the war on Poverty before there was the War on Drugs and it didnt and hasn't accomplish much despite numerous enactments of legislation over the years. The pros and cons of welfare has been argued as it can be trapping despite its merits. Sensitive subject but the Irish, Italians, Jews immigrants faced real discrimination going back and the Asians and many other Eastern immigrants have advanced as a group despite many barriers. Slavery obviously stripped away so much but what is perplexing is that black family structure appeared to have been stronger in the early 60's than before many of these progressive policies were enacted and by some accounts African emigrates are making more strides than Native blacks despite the view that racism still reigns widely. I have witnessed blatant racism to blacks as a younger person and I have also witnessed a different society notwithstanding flaws and inequities that still exist . There is still opportunity here and that is why immigrants flock to get here .I had a cousin who worked for the late Reginald Lewis and a nephew who works for Ronald F Johnson company so blacks can achieve with anyone but education and talent are the great equalizers , the ability to deliver and access to it and well as desire to embrace are keys. Right now, I see a growing divide in the black society between the haves and the have nots and the one difference is the haves are educated and motivated and the have nots are generally not. The same can be said about white society. Identifying the causes of causes seems doable, it is addressing them on multiple fronts that is not simple

I do not think this issues are isolated to US. The human civilization as a whole is at a crossroads.
The societies do not need so many active workers as we have hands available.
And this tendency will only increase.
To have stable society while the population will descent from its current pick to some reasonable level of 2-3 billions world-wide will be challenging.
We need to start using wealth we collected to provide reasonable life-hood to people who will not be able to find any occupation to support them-self.
So far instead we allowing crime, drugs, war, and chaos do the job for us. This can be a self defeating proposition. And for some areas of the world it already played out with civilization descent into primitive age or even case to exist.
As no easy solutions available we in US try to mask this core issue with various race, gender, class related concepts.
In fact this all just a reflection of the same core problem.
US as a country consolidated enormous wealth to create an island of prosperity in the see of despair.
And we have enormous firepower to reinforce this isolation.
This comes with moral implications but provides a huge opportunity to preserve and advance human civilization without huge setbacks we saw in the history like after fall of Rome Empire, the civilizations in Americas, Egypt, China, etc.
The task of this magnitude required enormous leadership which is currently lacking.

Akrud, Not sure I understand your post or where to begin . World wide population growth is actually slow right now and low fertility rates in many countries are causing a different set of problems, the present concern is greater production than consumption of most commodities these days. The pop. growth of the U.S. is low , think 0.07 , and minorities especially hispanics have the highest fertility rate and population growth and that will need to be supported by education leading to jobs. A Brooking Institution study that applies to all races and ethnic groups espoused 3 general rules to HELP avoid poverty. 1)Graduate high school, do not have children unless you are married and do not get married until you are over 21, and have a full time job. Their general findings were if you followed these rules then the chance of poverty would only be 2% and the chances of being middle class would increase to 74%. If all 3 rules are broken then you have 76% of poverty and just a 7% of middle class. Trends are moving the opposite way for out of wedlock births for all racial groups. Another problem for most people of all races these days is that educational requirements to just keep rising. Think the avg pay for hs graduate is only 28k which doesnt suffice to raising a family so welfare enters the pic, even millennials with undergraduate degrees realize that is not ensuring what it once did so you seeing more advanced degrees that separates as it cost monies and entrepreneurship that require connections. Despite, I think every one here agrees that solid education from an early age for all is key and must be delivered and embraced otherwise the nation will still have problems with poverty that will hinder progress from other reforms. The early black leaders mentioned by others, Marcus Garvey, Booker Washington, DuBois had some differences in views but all understood and stressed the importance of education. As far as Whats ,I do believe that black history as a stand alone subject should be taught to all so there can be greater understanding and appreciation of what has occurred, what has been accomplished and what can be done. I do not pretend to walk in a black person's shoes but I wonder if many people know of Black Wall Street , might emanate pride and shame but also hope in what is possible for minority communities if all parties, both black and white, invest and pursue from the ground up

I do believe that the process of populating decrease worldwide will accelerate.
In US we will have some increase due to immigration but I do not believe it will be significant.
And mostly the increase will be due to live expectancy not birth rate increase.

As far as minorities go I believe it is about ability to adapt to mainstream culture.
New emigrants are not taking anything for grunted and psychologically ready to work their way up from position of disadvantage.
Native minorities including African Americans (who are not emigrants by choose) are expecting to be in better position by birth.
This of course is not happening for many reasons and creates internal conflict, desire for entitlements, and sense of discrimination.
The culture of self-improvement for survival put nation like Jews, Koreans, and Armenians alike in the top achievers of human civilization as they were not in the position to get anything for grunted but rather being discriminated anywhere they live.
This is not anyone fault but rater the way civilization evolved.

This is a pretty racist post.

Can you please elaborate why it is racist?
This is just pure psychology and known facts.
There is nothing that people can be blamed about or get credit for.
This is just how it always worked anywhere in the world for thousand years.
And this just an overall tendency and can be absolutely different for any specific person.

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Im voting for Trump for only 1 reason. There is NO doubt--NO doubt in my mind that building a southern border wall ALLOWING border agents to do their job aggressively and removing hundreds of thousands of illegal Mexican immigrants who are embedded by drug cartels will atleast diminish drug movement in the US.

So the fact the idea is ludicrous and impractical and will in no way be built a factor in your decision making?

Making the ridiculous promise he knows he can't keep is good enough?

Whatever type of wall it is--whether physical virtual both in COMBINATION with a serious crackdown on illegal immigration in this country and namely THEIR EMPLOYERS will have SIGNIFICANT effect on cracking down on drugs. And Im quite sure that is what he is saying and it makes a ton of sense.

my god.. its the 80s all over again. Lets have another war on drugs so old rich white guys can feel safe about "things."

fishmike--any of your friends or family work in a hospital? My wife has been at Yale part time for twenty years. It's easy to not "see" something when you're not there to see it--but she and her co workers see it. It is every bit as true when you hear it on TV--people who come into this country or simply do not work for whatever reason get better faster health care paid for by our government than those who actually protected this country with their lives. There is as many as 15mm illegal immigrants who dont pay taxes who dont pay for insurance and get care paid for by you me and any other tax payer AND its at the expense of those who deserve it first. Its easy to say well we dont need a war on drugs--but hey fishmike--we certainly need to enforce our laws and if drugs die down some by enforcing those laws--than that is a job well done.

That's a substantive answer.

What has Trump promised to do so that the agricultural and service sectors of our large state with our largest economy (just for one) isn't devastated by his policies?

demagogues don't offer real answers. They take negatives and tell people lies so those people "feel" better, like things are being done about it. Actual results with substance? Who's got time to wait for that?

Briggs my aunt has been the head nurse for two large hospitals in my area. What you mentioned in your post is 15% of 7 different issues.

You know what put moonshiners and the whiskey runners out of business? Ending prohibition. There is only one solution to drug problems in this country and folks simply cant stomach it.

Knickoftime... it would almost be funny if we *DID* actually rid the country of illegals, if only to watch all the finger pointing when people complain that all their groceries now cost 3x as much.

Fish, I prefer to let substantive conversations play out, rather than cutting straight to discrediting the source.

I don't think Trump has any credibility, because I follow the through line of his ideas and promises and consider the logical ramifications. Trump to me has earned his lack of credibility.

So I'd prefer to stick to the policies with Briggs and give him a chance to explain how a wall would be paid for and how the ramifications would be dealt with.

If Briggs prefers to interpret Trumps words for him, and assume his promises are more figurative in nature, the upfront and backend "cost" of such policies are still open questions, ones I'd like to see him attempt to answer.

Supply and demand.
We have demand for illegal workers so we will get the supply.
We have demand for drugs so we will get drug dealers.
If society want to get read of something the only 2 ways are to kill the demand or provide alternative more attractive (or more "moral") supply.
Do we want to kill the demand or somehow provide another supply is not clear.

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Im voting for Trump for only 1 reason. There is NO doubt--NO doubt in my mind that building a southern border wall ALLOWING border agents to do their job aggressively and removing hundreds of thousands of illegal Mexican immigrants who are embedded by drug cartels will atleast diminish drug movement in the US.

So the fact the idea is ludicrous and impractical and will in no way be built a factor in your decision making?

Making the ridiculous promise he knows he can't keep is good enough?

Whatever type of wall it is--whether physical virtual both in COMBINATION with a serious crackdown on illegal immigration in this country and namely THEIR EMPLOYERS will have SIGNIFICANT effect on cracking down on drugs. And Im quite sure that is what he is saying and it makes a ton of sense.

my god.. its the 80s all over again. Lets have another war on drugs so old rich white guys can feel safe about "things."

fishmike--any of your friends or family work in a hospital? My wife has been at Yale part time for twenty years. It's easy to not "see" something when you're not there to see it--but she and her co workers see it. It is every bit as true when you hear it on TV--people who come into this country or simply do not work for whatever reason get better faster health care paid for by our government than those who actually protected this country with their lives. There is as many as 15mm illegal immigrants who dont pay taxes who dont pay for insurance and get care paid for by you me and any other tax payer AND its at the expense of those who deserve it first. Its easy to say well we dont need a war on drugs--but hey fishmike--we certainly need to enforce our laws and if drugs die down some by enforcing those laws--than that is a job well done.

That's a substantive answer.

What has Trump promised to do so that the agricultural and service sectors of our large state with our largest economy (just for one) isn't devastated by his policies?

demagogues don't offer real answers. They take negatives and tell people lies so those people "feel" better, like things are being done about it. Actual results with substance? Who's got time to wait for that?

Briggs my aunt has been the head nurse for two large hospitals in my area. What you mentioned in your post is 15% of 7 different issues.

You know what put moonshiners and the whiskey runners out of business? Ending prohibition. There is only one solution to drug problems in this country and folks simply cant stomach it.

Knickoftime... it would almost be funny if we *DID* actually rid the country of illegals, if only to watch all the finger pointing when people complain that all their groceries now cost 3x as much.

Fish, I prefer to let substantive conversations play out, rather than cutting straight to discrediting the source.

I don't think Trump has any credibility, because I follow the through line of his ideas and promises and consider the logical ramifications. Trump to me has earned his lack of credibility.

So I'd prefer to stick to the policies with Briggs and give him a chance to explain how a wall would be paid for and how the ramifications would be dealt with.

If Briggs prefers to interpret Trumps words for him, and assume his promises are more figurative in nature, the upfront and backend "cost" of such policies are still open questions, ones I'd like to see him attempt to answer.

I hear you. Fair enough.. I would like those answers also. I do the same with my older kids. I don't really have a political party. I grew up in a mix house where dad was a repub and Mom was a dem and thing were always pretty civil. This political environment is purely toxic with little or no real information, but I do try to take your tact, especially when talking about it with my older kids (13+15). You hear a lot of "we need to do xyz..."
The type of things Briggs mentioned... and rather than offer my opinion I just ask questions. How would we implement this? Who would this affect? etc etc...

when did politics become us vs them?

Exactly, I've only been involved in this thread a few pages, but notice the knee-jerk response is if you say anything critical about one candidate is "yeah but...", rationalizing how something the other candidate did was worse.

I get flack for saying this and acting upon it here on this forum and elsewhere - but the truth of the matter is our discourse is for ****.

Just don't try to elevate it ... people really, really (REALLY) don't like that.

fishmike wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Im voting for Trump for only 1 reason. There is NO doubt--NO doubt in my mind that building a southern border wall ALLOWING border agents to do their job aggressively and removing hundreds of thousands of illegal Mexican immigrants who are embedded by drug cartels will atleast diminish drug movement in the US.

So the fact the idea is ludicrous and impractical and will in no way be built a factor in your decision making?

Making the ridiculous promise he knows he can't keep is good enough?

Whatever type of wall it is--whether physical virtual both in COMBINATION with a serious crackdown on illegal immigration in this country and namely THEIR EMPLOYERS will have SIGNIFICANT effect on cracking down on drugs. And Im quite sure that is what he is saying and it makes a ton of sense.

my god.. its the 80s all over again. Lets have another war on drugs so old rich white guys can feel safe about "things."

fishmike--any of your friends or family work in a hospital? My wife has been at Yale part time for twenty years. It's easy to not "see" something when you're not there to see it--but she and her co workers see it. It is every bit as true when you hear it on TV--people who come into this country or simply do not work for whatever reason get better faster health care paid for by our government than those who actually protected this country with their lives. There is as many as 15mm illegal immigrants who dont pay taxes who dont pay for insurance and get care paid for by you me and any other tax payer AND its at the expense of those who deserve it first. Its easy to say well we dont need a war on drugs--but hey fishmike--we certainly need to enforce our laws and if drugs die down some by enforcing those laws--than that is a job well done.

That's a substantive answer.

What has Trump promised to do so that the agricultural and service sectors of our large state with our largest economy (just for one) isn't devastated by his policies?

demagogues don't offer real answers. They take negatives and tell people lies so those people "feel" better, like things are being done about it. Actual results with substance? Who's got time to wait for that?

Briggs my aunt has been the head nurse for two large hospitals in my area. What you mentioned in your post is 15% of 7 different issues.

You know what put moonshiners and the whiskey runners out of business? Ending prohibition. There is only one solution to drug problems in this country and folks simply cant stomach it.

Knickoftime... it would almost be funny if we *DID* actually rid the country of illegals, if only to watch all the finger pointing when people complain that all their groceries now cost 3x as much.

There are some in law enforcement who believe in legalizing drugs so worth exploring . Who would would sell it? The same who run treatment centers? There are also some who believe in phasing out welfare for all other than the disabled. Would remove culture of dependency, reduce illegitimate children and the huge savings could be employed elsewhere. in education and training. Not going to happen, folks couldn't stomach it. Illegal immigrants hold down costs in certain jobs but we also hear of the unemployed class that cant't find work. Couldnt they fill in?

Knickoftime wrote:Even more frightening is the emerging revelation that Trump may have offered Kasich the role of the most powerful VP in history, in charge of wait for it... ALL domestic and foreign policy.

Knickoftime - Frightening but predictable. You think Donald Trump wants to expand his personal brand and holdings ... or take on the toughest job on the planet?

When a bully is hit back hard, what does he do?

A. He runs.

WaltLongmire wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:Even more frightening is the emerging revelation that Trump may have offered Kasich the role of the most powerful VP in history, in charge of wait for it... ALL domestic and foreign policy.

Saw this today, and thought it was pretty stunning. I think he'd rather be a "King" than President.

He had his son do the asking, but how do you give him instructions to say such a thing- you can trust your son to keep it secret...but wny trust Kasich or his people?

I think the key is, if you're voting for Trump, you don't care.

GustavBahler wrote:Hillary is even more of a war monger than Trump, she has a record of it in govt. All the things people are saying about Trump are true, but you have to look at her record closely to see that this woman is no peacemaker. We're ****ed with either one of them. She already told everyone that Bill will be the point man on the economy. More deregulation, more Wall Street friendly (and Main Street unfriendly) policies are sure to follow with either candidate.

One also has to keep in mind the branch of government that declares war, and funds them, along with all other fiscal policies relating to taxation and regulation, is in fact the legislative branch.

Knickoftime wrote:

WaltLongmire wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:Even more frightening is the emerging revelation that Trump may have offered Kasich the role of the most powerful VP in history, in charge of wait for it... ALL domestic and foreign policy.

Saw this today, and thought it was pretty stunning. I think he'd rather be a "King" than President.

He had his son do the asking, but how do you give him instructions to say such a thing- you can trust your son to keep it secret...but wny trust Kasich or his people?

I think the key is, if you're voting for Trump, you don't care.

Some will vote for Trump liking what he says while others will vote for him under the belief that Trump was simply blowing hot air and the conservative ideology of the Pub party that one prefers will override him at most every turn . That is why many were encouraged by Junior's conservative speech and Pence's selection. Cruz is talking tonight and that should be interesting given their nasty exchanges