tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:People are down on Bargs because of his rebounding and team D. It's about removing 1-2 misses from his offense that he had to take in Toronto to get his offense back up to par.

I agree, but I think it's really shortsighted. This team didn't have anyone who could produce 50%+ from mid range last year. If teams are going to try to take away PnR and drives to the basket like the Pacers, then you have to be able to hit shots they leave open. Beno and AB can do that. They both have the skill of being able to knock down the Mid Range jumper. We'll still have the 3pt shooting and ISO plays, but we'll be adding good mid range, PnP offense too.

Woody is gonna be able to put AB in better scoring situations. AB won't have to carry the team and I think that's going to help him tremendously. If Woody can get AB to focus more on his defense and rebounding then he'll reach his full potential. He doesn't have to be the greatest rebounder or defender. He simply has to improve his effort on that end.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/sam-mitchell-disappointed-in-andrea-bargnani-development-raptors/

read that article.. not only was he coddled, but mitchell as let go because bargnani was not comfortable with a tough , gritty coach. remember mitchell was a great coach for Bosh, he led the raps to the playoffs, won coach of the year and then was fired? why? to cow tow to soft azz Bargnani.. that is why the raps got in guys like delfino, garbajosa, guys he felt comfortable with.. and what was the result? the raps sucked!!

There is a lot of wishful thinking going on in this thread... woodson first of all is not as good of a coach as mitchell, and woodson is not a good offensive coach, so all this talk of putting AB in better scoring situations is hilarious...

Beno and AB can do that. They both have the skill of being able to knock down the Mid Range jumper. We'll still have the 3pt shooting and ISO plays, but we'll be adding good mid range, PnP offense too.

you make them sound like stockton and malone.. let me ask you, why was no one knocking down the raps door for bargnani and then offering beno more than a vet deal? I mean most of these GM's and scouts are pretty darn bright... both guys were attainable, why not go after them?

This surely will be an interesting season... The bargnani threads are going to be classics..

TKF, Mitchell was fired in 2008! He can say now that he wasn't allowed to coach AB as tough as he wanted, but really that sounds like an excuse. You can still find ways to challenge players without getting nasty and angry with them. Mitchell's style wore on his players beside AB and didn't make the brass happy. If the brass told him not to push AB then they certainly didn't fire him for how AB turned out. Also how can you say Mitchell is better than Woody?

This is what was said about the Raptors playing style when they fired Mitchell:

The Raptors were ranked last in the NBA in fast-break points heading into Wednesday's games, and Triano said he wants the team to play faster.

"I think running becomes a mind-set and a habit," he said. "I think if it's not enforced it becomes easy to walk the ball up the court.

"We're committed to trying to find easier ways to score the basketball."

The Raps were clearly not being coached in a way the brass wanted to see the team play. Sounds like Mitchell was fired because of his coaching style and not AB!!! As for Wood not being as good an offensive coach as Mitchell, well Woody had the #3 offense last year. Mitchell was watching on TV somewhere.

As for me making Beno and AB sound like Stockton and Malone, well of course they won't be on that level, but you can get a good level of that style of BB from them, because they operate at a high efficiency in the PnP. The stats don't lie. Both Beno and AB are at 50% in the mid range where they run PnP.

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2757
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=200745

The thing is that this is what they both do well. There's no argument you can concoct that can refute the evidence in the stats or the videos that clearly show that both AB and Beno are very efficient PnP players. That's a part of the game that few players really excel. Mainly because most players can't hit the mid range jumper like they both can. When AB comes out to set the pick and Beno comes around it, either player that is open can hit the shot at a high %. That's what makes the play successful. What can you say to refute this concept.

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:People are down on Bargs because of his rebounding and team D. It's about removing 1-2 misses from his offense that he had to take in Toronto to get his offense back up to par.

I agree, but I think it's really shortsighted. This team didn't have anyone who could produce 50%+ from mid range last year. If teams are going to try to take away PnR and drives to the basket like the Pacers, then you have to be able to hit shots they leave open. Beno and AB can do that. They both have the skill of being able to knock down the Mid Range jumper. We'll still have the 3pt shooting and ISO plays, but we'll be adding good mid range, PnP offense too.

Woody is gonna be able to put AB in better scoring situations. AB won't have to carry the team and I think that's going to help him tremendously. If Woody can get AB to focus more on his defense and rebounding then he'll reach his full potential. He doesn't have to be the greatest rebounder or defender. He simply has to improve his effort on that end.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/sam-mitchell-disappointed-in-andrea-bargnani-development-raptors/

read that article.. not only was he coddled, but mitchell as let go because bargnani was not comfortable with a tough , gritty coach. remember mitchell was a great coach for Bosh, he led the raps to the playoffs, won coach of the year and then was fired? why? to cow tow to soft azz Bargnani.. that is why the raps got in guys like delfino, garbajosa, guys he felt comfortable with.. and what was the result? the raps sucked!!

There is a lot of wishful thinking going on in this thread... woodson first of all is not as good of a coach as mitchell, and woodson is not a good offensive coach, so all this talk of putting AB in better scoring situations is hilarious...

Beno and AB can do that. They both have the skill of being able to knock down the Mid Range jumper. We'll still have the 3pt shooting and ISO plays, but we'll be adding good mid range, PnP offense too.

you make them sound like stockton and malone.. let me ask you, why was no one knocking down the raps door for bargnani and then offering beno more than a vet deal? I mean most of these GM's and scouts are pretty darn bright... both guys were attainable, why not go after them?

This surely will be an interesting season... The bargnani threads are going to be classics..

TKF, Mitchell was fired in 2008! He can say now that he wasn't allowed to coach AB as tough as he wanted, but really that sounds like an excuse. You can still find ways to challenge players without getting nasty and angry with them. Mitchell's style wore on his players beside AB and didn't make the brass happy. If the brass told him not to push AB then they certainly didn't fire him for how AB turned out. Also how can you say Mitchell is better than Woody?

This is what was said about the Raptors playing style when they fired Mitchell:

The Raptors were ranked last in the NBA in fast-break points heading into Wednesday's games, and Triano said he wants the team to play faster.

"I think running becomes a mind-set and a habit," he said. "I think if it's not enforced it becomes easy to walk the ball up the court.

"We're committed to trying to find easier ways to score the basketball."

The Raps were clearly not being coached in a way the brass wanted to see the team play. Sounds like Mitchell was fired because of his coaching style and not AB!!! As for Wood not being as good an offensive coach as Mitchell, well Woody had the #3 offense last year. Mitchell was watching on TV somewhere.

As for me making Beno and AB sound like Stockton and Malone, well of course they won't be on that level, but you can get a good level of that style of BB from them, because they operate at a high efficiency in the PnP. The stats don't lie. Both Beno and AB are at 50% in the mid range where they run PnP.

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2757
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=200745

The thing is that this is what they both do well. There's no argument you can concoct that can refute the evidence in the stats or the videos that clearly show that both AB and Beno are very efficient PnP players. That's a part of the game that few players really excel. Mainly because most players can't hit the mid range jumper like they both can. When AB comes out to set the pick and Beno comes around it, either player that is open can hit the shot at a high %. That's what makes the play successful. What can you say to refute this concept.

here is a quote from the article since I guess you didn't read it.

“I wasn’t allowed to coach Andrea the same way I was allowed to coach Jose (Calderon),” Mitchell told Tim & Sid on Sportsnet 590 The Fan on Wednesday. “I was a hard ass on Jose; I was hard on him, but look at the type of player he turned out to be.

“I was not allowed to be that tough on Andrea because within the organization we felt he couldn’t take it. And my whole thing was if he can’t take it then we can’t build around him. And no one thought Jose could take it, and Jose did.”

Mitchell was fired because he wanted to dig into AB's azz.. bargs could not take it... mitchell had the raps in the playoffs, he also won coach of the year, I don't want to hear this crap it was because of his coaching..

Bargnani is SOFT... and now you guys are trying to sell him as some GEM with a load of untapped potential.... another spin job bro... you have to stop absolving the player and making everything about circumstances.. bargnani is what he is because of HIM.. and when he comes here and you find out that the knicks are no better... I hope you just admit it and not blame someone else... or make another excuse..

The thing is that this is what they both do well. There's no argument you can concoct that can refute the evidence in the stats or the videos that clearly show that both AB and Beno are very efficient PnP players. That's a part of the game that few players really excel. Mainly because most players can't hit the mid range jumper like they both can. When AB comes out to set the pick and Beno comes around it, either player that is open can hit the shot at a high %. That's what makes the play successful. What can you say to refute this concept.

just a question.. neither guy are young players in the sense of time in the league.. both have enough data and scouting to see what they are as players.. why was one player available for peanuts and the other pretty much cast off from his team? you keep talking about them being efficient PNP players, so was AMARE, how well did that go once carmelo got to the team.. We are not playing pick and roll with 3 sticky finger iso players in carmelo, JR smith and now bargnani.. it is a dream bro,.. and to top it off both beno and AB are not good enough to run your offense through if you want to win, otherwise they would not be here in NY!!! they would be starting for the last team that had them..

well Woody had the #3 offense last year.

yet as you guys claimed our offense sucked in the playoffs.. so what was it, bad coaching?

felton and chandler ran pick and roll very well last year.. ok, now what? are you telling we are better because we will have a jumpshooter, and not a very efficient one, and a journey man guard running pick and roll when felton and chandler are not?

if we had a prime amare and nash, then I would understand your point, and see the potential impact...

you are basically saying that I will be better off trading in my 2012 Honda accord that runs well for a 2013 honda accord, with all the same features? how?

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:People are down on Bargs because of his rebounding and team D. It's about removing 1-2 misses from his offense that he had to take in Toronto to get his offense back up to par.

I agree, but I think it's really shortsighted. This team didn't have anyone who could produce 50%+ from mid range last year. If teams are going to try to take away PnR and drives to the basket like the Pacers, then you have to be able to hit shots they leave open. Beno and AB can do that. They both have the skill of being able to knock down the Mid Range jumper. We'll still have the 3pt shooting and ISO plays, but we'll be adding good mid range, PnP offense too.

Woody is gonna be able to put AB in better scoring situations. AB won't have to carry the team and I think that's going to help him tremendously. If Woody can get AB to focus more on his defense and rebounding then he'll reach his full potential. He doesn't have to be the greatest rebounder or defender. He simply has to improve his effort on that end.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/sam-mitchell-disappointed-in-andrea-bargnani-development-raptors/

read that article.. not only was he coddled, but mitchell as let go because bargnani was not comfortable with a tough , gritty coach. remember mitchell was a great coach for Bosh, he led the raps to the playoffs, won coach of the year and then was fired? why? to cow tow to soft azz Bargnani.. that is why the raps got in guys like delfino, garbajosa, guys he felt comfortable with.. and what was the result? the raps sucked!!

There is a lot of wishful thinking going on in this thread... woodson first of all is not as good of a coach as mitchell, and woodson is not a good offensive coach, so all this talk of putting AB in better scoring situations is hilarious...

Beno and AB can do that. They both have the skill of being able to knock down the Mid Range jumper. We'll still have the 3pt shooting and ISO plays, but we'll be adding good mid range, PnP offense too.

you make them sound like stockton and malone.. let me ask you, why was no one knocking down the raps door for bargnani and then offering beno more than a vet deal? I mean most of these GM's and scouts are pretty darn bright... both guys were attainable, why not go after them?

This surely will be an interesting season... The bargnani threads are going to be classics..

TKF, Mitchell was fired in 2008! He can say now that he wasn't allowed to coach AB as tough as he wanted, but really that sounds like an excuse. You can still find ways to challenge players without getting nasty and angry with them. Mitchell's style wore on his players beside AB and didn't make the brass happy. If the brass told him not to push AB then they certainly didn't fire him for how AB turned out. Also how can you say Mitchell is better than Woody?

This is what was said about the Raptors playing style when they fired Mitchell:

The Raptors were ranked last in the NBA in fast-break points heading into Wednesday's games, and Triano said he wants the team to play faster.

"I think running becomes a mind-set and a habit," he said. "I think if it's not enforced it becomes easy to walk the ball up the court.

"We're committed to trying to find easier ways to score the basketball."

The Raps were clearly not being coached in a way the brass wanted to see the team play. Sounds like Mitchell was fired because of his coaching style and not AB!!! As for Wood not being as good an offensive coach as Mitchell, well Woody had the #3 offense last year. Mitchell was watching on TV somewhere.

As for me making Beno and AB sound like Stockton and Malone, well of course they won't be on that level, but you can get a good level of that style of BB from them, because they operate at a high efficiency in the PnP. The stats don't lie. Both Beno and AB are at 50% in the mid range where they run PnP.

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2757
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=200745

The thing is that this is what they both do well. There's no argument you can concoct that can refute the evidence in the stats or the videos that clearly show that both AB and Beno are very efficient PnP players. That's a part of the game that few players really excel. Mainly because most players can't hit the mid range jumper like they both can. When AB comes out to set the pick and Beno comes around it, either player that is open can hit the shot at a high %. That's what makes the play successful. What can you say to refute this concept.

here is a quote from the article since I guess you didn't read it.

“I wasn’t allowed to coach Andrea the same way I was allowed to coach Jose (Calderon),” Mitchell told Tim & Sid on Sportsnet 590 The Fan on Wednesday. “I was a hard ass on Jose; I was hard on him, but look at the type of player he turned out to be.

“I was not allowed to be that tough on Andrea because within the organization we felt he couldn’t take it. And my whole thing was if he can’t take it then we can’t build around him. And no one thought Jose could take it, and Jose did.”

Mitchell was fired because he wanted to dig into AB's azz.. bargs could not take it... mitchell had the raps in the playoffs, he also won coach of the year, I don't want to hear this crap it was because of his coaching..

Bargnani is SOFT... and now you guys are trying to sell him as some GEM with a load of untapped potential.... another spin job bro... you have to stop absolving the player and making everything about circumstances.. bargnani is what he is because of HIM.. and when he comes here and you find out that the knicks are no better... I hope you just admit it and not blame someone else... or make another excuse..

The thing is that this is what they both do well. There's no argument you can concoct that can refute the evidence in the stats or the videos that clearly show that both AB and Beno are very efficient PnP players. That's a part of the game that few players really excel. Mainly because most players can't hit the mid range jumper like they both can. When AB comes out to set the pick and Beno comes around it, either player that is open can hit the shot at a high %. That's what makes the play successful. What can you say to refute this concept.

just a question.. neither guy are young players in the sense of time in the league.. both have enough data and scouting to see what they are as players.. why was one player available for peanuts and the other pretty much cast off from his team? you keep talking about them being efficient PNP players, so was AMARE, how well did that go once carmelo got to the team.. We are not playing pick and roll with 3 sticky finger iso players in carmelo, JR smith and now bargnani.. it is a dream bro,.. and to top it off both beno and AB are not good enough to run your offense through if you want to win, otherwise they would not be here in NY!!! they would be starting for the last team that had them..

well Woody had the #3 offense last year.

yet as you guys claimed our offense sucked in the playoffs.. so what was it, bad coaching?

felton and chandler ran pick and roll very well last year.. ok, now what? are you telling we are better because we will have a jumpshooter, and not a very efficient one, and a journey man guard running pick and roll when felton and chandler are not?

if we had a prime amare and nash, then I would understand your point, and see the potential impact...

you are basically saying that I will be better off trading in my 2012 Honda accord that runs well for a 2013 honda accord, with all the same features? how?

bad coaching + poor leadership + uncoachable players = underachievement and scapegoating

tkf what is your starting lineup?

i say you keep bargnani and melo separate as much as possible and work from there. what do you say?

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:People are down on Bargs because of his rebounding and team D. It's about removing 1-2 misses from his offense that he had to take in Toronto to get his offense back up to par.

I agree, but I think it's really shortsighted. This team didn't have anyone who could produce 50%+ from mid range last year. If teams are going to try to take away PnR and drives to the basket like the Pacers, then you have to be able to hit shots they leave open. Beno and AB can do that. They both have the skill of being able to knock down the Mid Range jumper. We'll still have the 3pt shooting and ISO plays, but we'll be adding good mid range, PnP offense too.

Woody is gonna be able to put AB in better scoring situations. AB won't have to carry the team and I think that's going to help him tremendously. If Woody can get AB to focus more on his defense and rebounding then he'll reach his full potential. He doesn't have to be the greatest rebounder or defender. He simply has to improve his effort on that end.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/sam-mitchell-disappointed-in-andrea-bargnani-development-raptors/

read that article.. not only was he coddled, but mitchell as let go because bargnani was not comfortable with a tough , gritty coach. remember mitchell was a great coach for Bosh, he led the raps to the playoffs, won coach of the year and then was fired? why? to cow tow to soft azz Bargnani.. that is why the raps got in guys like delfino, garbajosa, guys he felt comfortable with.. and what was the result? the raps sucked!!

There is a lot of wishful thinking going on in this thread... woodson first of all is not as good of a coach as mitchell, and woodson is not a good offensive coach, so all this talk of putting AB in better scoring situations is hilarious...

Beno and AB can do that. They both have the skill of being able to knock down the Mid Range jumper. We'll still have the 3pt shooting and ISO plays, but we'll be adding good mid range, PnP offense too.

you make them sound like stockton and malone.. let me ask you, why was no one knocking down the raps door for bargnani and then offering beno more than a vet deal? I mean most of these GM's and scouts are pretty darn bright... both guys were attainable, why not go after them?

This surely will be an interesting season... The bargnani threads are going to be classics..

TKF, Mitchell was fired in 2008! He can say now that he wasn't allowed to coach AB as tough as he wanted, but really that sounds like an excuse. You can still find ways to challenge players without getting nasty and angry with them. Mitchell's style wore on his players beside AB and didn't make the brass happy. If the brass told him not to push AB then they certainly didn't fire him for how AB turned out. Also how can you say Mitchell is better than Woody?

This is what was said about the Raptors playing style when they fired Mitchell:

The Raptors were ranked last in the NBA in fast-break points heading into Wednesday's games, and Triano said he wants the team to play faster.

"I think running becomes a mind-set and a habit," he said. "I think if it's not enforced it becomes easy to walk the ball up the court.

"We're committed to trying to find easier ways to score the basketball."

The Raps were clearly not being coached in a way the brass wanted to see the team play. Sounds like Mitchell was fired because of his coaching style and not AB!!! As for Wood not being as good an offensive coach as Mitchell, well Woody had the #3 offense last year. Mitchell was watching on TV somewhere.

As for me making Beno and AB sound like Stockton and Malone, well of course they won't be on that level, but you can get a good level of that style of BB from them, because they operate at a high efficiency in the PnP. The stats don't lie. Both Beno and AB are at 50% in the mid range where they run PnP.

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2757
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=200745

The thing is that this is what they both do well. There's no argument you can concoct that can refute the evidence in the stats or the videos that clearly show that both AB and Beno are very efficient PnP players. That's a part of the game that few players really excel. Mainly because most players can't hit the mid range jumper like they both can. When AB comes out to set the pick and Beno comes around it, either player that is open can hit the shot at a high %. That's what makes the play successful. What can you say to refute this concept.

here is a quote from the article since I guess you didn't read it.

“I wasn’t allowed to coach Andrea the same way I was allowed to coach Jose (Calderon),” Mitchell told Tim & Sid on Sportsnet 590 The Fan on Wednesday. “I was a hard ass on Jose; I was hard on him, but look at the type of player he turned out to be.

“I was not allowed to be that tough on Andrea because within the organization we felt he couldn’t take it. And my whole thing was if he can’t take it then we can’t build around him. And no one thought Jose could take it, and Jose did.”

Mitchell was fired because he wanted to dig into AB's azz.. bargs could not take it... mitchell had the raps in the playoffs, he also won coach of the year, I don't want to hear this crap it was because of his coaching..

Bargnani is SOFT... and now you guys are trying to sell him as some GEM with a load of untapped potential.... another spin job bro... you have to stop absolving the player and making everything about circumstances.. bargnani is what he is because of HIM.. and when he comes here and you find out that the knicks are no better... I hope you just admit it and not blame someone else... or make another excuse..

The thing is that this is what they both do well. There's no argument you can concoct that can refute the evidence in the stats or the videos that clearly show that both AB and Beno are very efficient PnP players. That's a part of the game that few players really excel. Mainly because most players can't hit the mid range jumper like they both can. When AB comes out to set the pick and Beno comes around it, either player that is open can hit the shot at a high %. That's what makes the play successful. What can you say to refute this concept.

just a question.. neither guy are young players in the sense of time in the league.. both have enough data and scouting to see what they are as players.. why was one player available for peanuts and the other pretty much cast off from his team?

you keep talking about them being efficient PNP players, so was AMARE, how well did that go once carmelo got to the team..

We are not playing pick and roll with 3 sticky finger iso players in carmelo, JR smith and now bargnani.. it is a dream bro,.. and to top it off both beno and AB are not good enough to run your offense through if you want to win, otherwise they would not be here in NY!!! they would be starting for the last team that had them..

well Woody had the #3 offense last year.

yet as you guys claimed our offense sucked in the playoffs.. so what was it, bad coaching?

you keep talking about them being efficient PNP players, so was AMARE, how well did that go once carmelo got to the team..

I think it was going fine until Amare threw out his back dunking before the Celts game and then his knees gave out. Also, as Nix has pointed out on numerous occasions Bargs injuries are different then Amare's in that they are not chronic or career threatening.
In regards to one player being available for peanuts I assume you are talking about Udrih? It seems a bit hypocritical to post a long list of guys that signed for 3.1 mil or less and then criticize the player the Knicks get because the cba forced him into a situation where he had to sign for the vet minimum doesn't it? Also, Bargs needed to be moved from Toronto. Both the raps and Bargs needed a change. That happens sometimes.

i figured someone would say this.. but you didn't read my post.. I said beno and AB have been in the league, those guys who they are... when I made that list, I was highlighting guys who were young, guys we could build and develop with.. guys like BJ mullens and DJ augustine.... these were guys who i felt could not only fill in and give us what we needed, but give us youth to look at for the future..

the rest of that list had guys who I felt were just better than beno and AB who came at a bit steeper price.. so no, it is not hypocritical, i was clear at what I said, you need to read it..

As far as amare, other than his knees.. the worst thing for his game was carmelo....

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:People are down on Bargs because of his rebounding and team D. It's about removing 1-2 misses from his offense that he had to take in Toronto to get his offense back up to par.

I agree, but I think it's really shortsighted. This team didn't have anyone who could produce 50%+ from mid range last year. If teams are going to try to take away PnR and drives to the basket like the Pacers, then you have to be able to hit shots they leave open. Beno and AB can do that. They both have the skill of being able to knock down the Mid Range jumper. We'll still have the 3pt shooting and ISO plays, but we'll be adding good mid range, PnP offense too.

Woody is gonna be able to put AB in better scoring situations. AB won't have to carry the team and I think that's going to help him tremendously. If Woody can get AB to focus more on his defense and rebounding then he'll reach his full potential. He doesn't have to be the greatest rebounder or defender. He simply has to improve his effort on that end.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/sam-mitchell-disappointed-in-andrea-bargnani-development-raptors/

read that article.. not only was he coddled, but mitchell as let go because bargnani was not comfortable with a tough , gritty coach. remember mitchell was a great coach for Bosh, he led the raps to the playoffs, won coach of the year and then was fired? why? to cow tow to soft azz Bargnani.. that is why the raps got in guys like delfino, garbajosa, guys he felt comfortable with.. and what was the result? the raps sucked!!

There is a lot of wishful thinking going on in this thread... woodson first of all is not as good of a coach as mitchell, and woodson is not a good offensive coach, so all this talk of putting AB in better scoring situations is hilarious...

Beno and AB can do that. They both have the skill of being able to knock down the Mid Range jumper. We'll still have the 3pt shooting and ISO plays, but we'll be adding good mid range, PnP offense too.

you make them sound like stockton and malone.. let me ask you, why was no one knocking down the raps door for bargnani and then offering beno more than a vet deal? I mean most of these GM's and scouts are pretty darn bright... both guys were attainable, why not go after them?

This surely will be an interesting season... The bargnani threads are going to be classics..

TKF, Mitchell was fired in 2008! He can say now that he wasn't allowed to coach AB as tough as he wanted, but really that sounds like an excuse. You can still find ways to challenge players without getting nasty and angry with them. Mitchell's style wore on his players beside AB and didn't make the brass happy. If the brass told him not to push AB then they certainly didn't fire him for how AB turned out. Also how can you say Mitchell is better than Woody?

This is what was said about the Raptors playing style when they fired Mitchell:

The Raptors were ranked last in the NBA in fast-break points heading into Wednesday's games, and Triano said he wants the team to play faster.

"I think running becomes a mind-set and a habit," he said. "I think if it's not enforced it becomes easy to walk the ball up the court.

"We're committed to trying to find easier ways to score the basketball."

The Raps were clearly not being coached in a way the brass wanted to see the team play. Sounds like Mitchell was fired because of his coaching style and not AB!!! As for Wood not being as good an offensive coach as Mitchell, well Woody had the #3 offense last year. Mitchell was watching on TV somewhere.

As for me making Beno and AB sound like Stockton and Malone, well of course they won't be on that level, but you can get a good level of that style of BB from them, because they operate at a high efficiency in the PnP. The stats don't lie. Both Beno and AB are at 50% in the mid range where they run PnP.

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2757
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=200745

The thing is that this is what they both do well. There's no argument you can concoct that can refute the evidence in the stats or the videos that clearly show that both AB and Beno are very efficient PnP players. That's a part of the game that few players really excel. Mainly because most players can't hit the mid range jumper like they both can. When AB comes out to set the pick and Beno comes around it, either player that is open can hit the shot at a high %. That's what makes the play successful. What can you say to refute this concept.

here is a quote from the article since I guess you didn't read it.

“I wasn’t allowed to coach Andrea the same way I was allowed to coach Jose (Calderon),” Mitchell told Tim & Sid on Sportsnet 590 The Fan on Wednesday. “I was a hard ass on Jose; I was hard on him, but look at the type of player he turned out to be.

“I was not allowed to be that tough on Andrea because within the organization we felt he couldn’t take it. And my whole thing was if he can’t take it then we can’t build around him. And no one thought Jose could take it, and Jose did.”

Mitchell was fired because he wanted to dig into AB's azz.. bargs could not take it... mitchell had the raps in the playoffs, he also won coach of the year, I don't want to hear this crap it was because of his coaching..

Bargnani is SOFT... and now you guys are trying to sell him as some GEM with a load of untapped potential.... another spin job bro... you have to stop absolving the player and making everything about circumstances.. bargnani is what he is because of HIM.. and when he comes here and you find out that the knicks are no better... I hope you just admit it and not blame someone else... or make another excuse..

The thing is that this is what they both do well. There's no argument you can concoct that can refute the evidence in the stats or the videos that clearly show that both AB and Beno are very efficient PnP players. That's a part of the game that few players really excel. Mainly because most players can't hit the mid range jumper like they both can. When AB comes out to set the pick and Beno comes around it, either player that is open can hit the shot at a high %. That's what makes the play successful. What can you say to refute this concept.

just a question.. neither guy are young players in the sense of time in the league.. both have enough data and scouting to see what they are as players.. why was one player available for peanuts and the other pretty much cast off from his team? you keep talking about them being efficient PNP players, so was AMARE, how well did that go once carmelo got to the team.. We are not playing pick and roll with 3 sticky finger iso players in carmelo, JR smith and now bargnani.. it is a dream bro,.. and to top it off both beno and AB are not good enough to run your offense through if you want to win, otherwise they would not be here in NY!!! they would be starting for the last team that had them..

well Woody had the #3 offense last year.

yet as you guys claimed our offense sucked in the playoffs.. so what was it, bad coaching?

felton and chandler ran pick and roll very well last year.. ok, now what? are you telling we are better because we will have a jumpshooter, and not a very efficient one, and a journey man guard running pick and roll when felton and chandler are not?

if we had a prime amare and nash, then I would understand your point, and see the potential impact...

you are basically saying that I will be better off trading in my 2012 Honda accord that runs well for a 2013 honda accord, with all the same features? how?

bad coaching + poor leadership + uncoachable players = underachievement and scapegoating

tkf what is your starting lineup?

i say you keep bargnani and melo separate as much as possible and work from there. what do you say?

Knicks won 54 games no?

i don't care about regular-season records i care about whether they are a playoff-ready team, meaning can they be competitive in the semi-finals and finals of the conference. they weren't.

tkf wrote:

dk7th wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:People are down on Bargs because of his rebounding and team D. It's about removing 1-2 misses from his offense that he had to take in Toronto to get his offense back up to par.

I agree, but I think it's really shortsighted. This team didn't have anyone who could produce 50%+ from mid range last year. If teams are going to try to take away PnR and drives to the basket like the Pacers, then you have to be able to hit shots they leave open. Beno and AB can do that. They both have the skill of being able to knock down the Mid Range jumper. We'll still have the 3pt shooting and ISO plays, but we'll be adding good mid range, PnP offense too.

Woody is gonna be able to put AB in better scoring situations. AB won't have to carry the team and I think that's going to help him tremendously. If Woody can get AB to focus more on his defense and rebounding then he'll reach his full potential. He doesn't have to be the greatest rebounder or defender. He simply has to improve his effort on that end.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/sam-mitchell-disappointed-in-andrea-bargnani-development-raptors/

read that article.. not only was he coddled, but mitchell as let go because bargnani was not comfortable with a tough , gritty coach. remember mitchell was a great coach for Bosh, he led the raps to the playoffs, won coach of the year and then was fired? why? to cow tow to soft azz Bargnani.. that is why the raps got in guys like delfino, garbajosa, guys he felt comfortable with.. and what was the result? the raps sucked!!

There is a lot of wishful thinking going on in this thread... woodson first of all is not as good of a coach as mitchell, and woodson is not a good offensive coach, so all this talk of putting AB in better scoring situations is hilarious...

Beno and AB can do that. They both have the skill of being able to knock down the Mid Range jumper. We'll still have the 3pt shooting and ISO plays, but we'll be adding good mid range, PnP offense too.

you make them sound like stockton and malone.. let me ask you, why was no one knocking down the raps door for bargnani and then offering beno more than a vet deal? I mean most of these GM's and scouts are pretty darn bright... both guys were attainable, why not go after them?

This surely will be an interesting season... The bargnani threads are going to be classics..

TKF, Mitchell was fired in 2008! He can say now that he wasn't allowed to coach AB as tough as he wanted, but really that sounds like an excuse. You can still find ways to challenge players without getting nasty and angry with them. Mitchell's style wore on his players beside AB and didn't make the brass happy. If the brass told him not to push AB then they certainly didn't fire him for how AB turned out. Also how can you say Mitchell is better than Woody?

This is what was said about the Raptors playing style when they fired Mitchell:

The Raptors were ranked last in the NBA in fast-break points heading into Wednesday's games, and Triano said he wants the team to play faster.

"I think running becomes a mind-set and a habit," he said. "I think if it's not enforced it becomes easy to walk the ball up the court.

"We're committed to trying to find easier ways to score the basketball."

The Raps were clearly not being coached in a way the brass wanted to see the team play. Sounds like Mitchell was fired because of his coaching style and not AB!!! As for Wood not being as good an offensive coach as Mitchell, well Woody had the #3 offense last year. Mitchell was watching on TV somewhere.

As for me making Beno and AB sound like Stockton and Malone, well of course they won't be on that level, but you can get a good level of that style of BB from them, because they operate at a high efficiency in the PnP. The stats don't lie. Both Beno and AB are at 50% in the mid range where they run PnP.

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2757
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=200745

The thing is that this is what they both do well. There's no argument you can concoct that can refute the evidence in the stats or the videos that clearly show that both AB and Beno are very efficient PnP players. That's a part of the game that few players really excel. Mainly because most players can't hit the mid range jumper like they both can. When AB comes out to set the pick and Beno comes around it, either player that is open can hit the shot at a high %. That's what makes the play successful. What can you say to refute this concept.

here is a quote from the article since I guess you didn't read it.

“I wasn’t allowed to coach Andrea the same way I was allowed to coach Jose (Calderon),” Mitchell told Tim & Sid on Sportsnet 590 The Fan on Wednesday. “I was a hard ass on Jose; I was hard on him, but look at the type of player he turned out to be.

“I was not allowed to be that tough on Andrea because within the organization we felt he couldn’t take it. And my whole thing was if he can’t take it then we can’t build around him. And no one thought Jose could take it, and Jose did.”

Mitchell was fired because he wanted to dig into AB's azz.. bargs could not take it... mitchell had the raps in the playoffs, he also won coach of the year, I don't want to hear this crap it was because of his coaching..

Bargnani is SOFT... and now you guys are trying to sell him as some GEM with a load of untapped potential.... another spin job bro... you have to stop absolving the player and making everything about circumstances.. bargnani is what he is because of HIM.. and when he comes here and you find out that the knicks are no better... I hope you just admit it and not blame someone else... or make another excuse..

The thing is that this is what they both do well. There's no argument you can concoct that can refute the evidence in the stats or the videos that clearly show that both AB and Beno are very efficient PnP players. That's a part of the game that few players really excel. Mainly because most players can't hit the mid range jumper like they both can. When AB comes out to set the pick and Beno comes around it, either player that is open can hit the shot at a high %. That's what makes the play successful. What can you say to refute this concept.

just a question.. neither guy are young players in the sense of time in the league.. both have enough data and scouting to see what they are as players.. why was one player available for peanuts and the other pretty much cast off from his team? you keep talking about them being efficient PNP players, so was AMARE, how well did that go once carmelo got to the team.. We are not playing pick and roll with 3 sticky finger iso players in carmelo, JR smith and now bargnani.. it is a dream bro,.. and to top it off both beno and AB are not good enough to run your offense through if you want to win, otherwise they would not be here in NY!!! they would be starting for the last team that had them..

well Woody had the #3 offense last year.

yet as you guys claimed our offense sucked in the playoffs.. so what was it, bad coaching?

felton and chandler ran pick and roll very well last year.. ok, now what? are you telling we are better because we will have a jumpshooter, and not a very efficient one, and a journey man guard running pick and roll when felton and chandler are not?

if we had a prime amare and nash, then I would understand your point, and see the potential impact...

you are basically saying that I will be better off trading in my 2012 Honda accord that runs well for a 2013 honda accord, with all the same features? how?

bad coaching + poor leadership + uncoachable players = underachievement and scapegoating

tkf what is your starting lineup?

i say you keep bargnani and melo separate as much as possible and work from there. what do you say?

DK, really I AM NOT sure it makes much of a difference. if bargs and melo are on the floor, I think we get killed defensively. I agree, keep them apart as much as possible..

i would start

felton
shumpert
artest
carmelo
chandler

honestly, other than felton and carmelo, you can toss all the names in a bag and come up with a starting lineup.... other than keeping bargs in the starting lineup of course...

Did you just say. Melo should start? Just checking...

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:I recently stumbled upon NBA.com Shotcharts. I then decided to compare Carmelo, Lebron, and Durant.

Melo
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2546
James
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2544
Durant
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=201142

Basically looking at the shot charts the only real eye popping difference seems to come from ability to finish around the rim.

Carmelo only averages 51.94% from in close, while Lebron averages, 72.12% and Durant averages 64.56%.

I subtracted the inside shots to see what there % were without it.

Carmelo shot 42.0% - Carmelo's inside shots only give him 3% raise rounded off
Lebron shot 42.4% - Lebron's inside shots give him a 14% raise rounded off
Durant shot 43.1% - Durant's inside shots give him a 8% raise rounded off

Only Midrange/no 3s or inside shots

Carmelo shot 268/601 44.5%
Lebron shot 199/458 43.4%
Durant shot 286/625 45.7%

The difference in scoring efficiency seems to come from Melo not being as good a finisher as Lebron and Durant. From midrange and 3pt shooting though he seems to be on par with them.

The goal should be more transition opportunities. Unlike the two guys he barely gets any transition buckets. Most of that is on him. He does need to become a better finisher in the halfcourt too. I would love to see his numbers after he came back from the knee drain when it seemed like he was dunking more. His insistence on not Dunking like he used to probably doesn't help

Great find Newyorknewyork!!! I was searching for something like this. To try and make a point about how Bargnani can help the Knicks just look at the mid range shots AB takes in the area where he often runs his PnP>

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=200745

AB is killing it from the left and right elbow and FT line area. That's the PnP range that we've been talking about and there were those who said he wasn't going to be able to help but when you look at how strong he is from there you can see how that strength in his game can help. He was 50% from the left elbow, 57% from the right elbow and 47% in the FT area. This is the area where he most often takes his PnP mid range shots.

Look at the Mid range shots AB takes and makes in this video and you can see how his numbers are so strong from there:

This is what we've been talking about when we say that AB can help this team against teams like the Pacers who pack the paint and leave shooters open for mid range jumpers. AB and Beno will make those shots. It was an area of weakness last year and will be a strength this year.

Look at the PnP opportunities Beno and AB will likely have and how they basically live off those looks:

Our #1 offensive play is the PNR with Felton & Chandler. Chandler connects at 64.75% and Felton connects at 52% or Pablo at 59.65%. As well as the kick outs that lead to ball swings and open 3s.

Bargs impact will be that he will allow Melo to matchup mostly against SFs instead of PFs. So If the PNR is defended well when we go to Melo in the post or iso as the 2nd option Melo will be able to for the most part have easier matchups. There aren't many SFs that can guard Melo in the post. Example last playoffs Boston wouldn't have been able to put Bass on Melo with Barg's in the lineup.

An Artest, Melo, Bargs lineup with Melo running the PNR with Bargs would be very hard to stop as well and would be very good for spurts of a game depending on if they are getting killed on the glass or defensively. Either the paint would be wide open for Melo or Melo can pad some ast on the pop.

Bargs also takes away the dependence on JR Smith to be a playmaker. Instead we could run PNP/PNR with Bargs and Smith can do what he does best which is spot up shooting. Felton/Bargs PNP just like Melo example before gives Felton more opportunities to attack the paint if the big commits to Bargs. Felton doesn't have to worry about the crowded paint as much.

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

tkf wrote:

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:People are down on Bargs because of his rebounding and team D. It's about removing 1-2 misses from his offense that he had to take in Toronto to get his offense back up to par.

I agree, but I think it's really shortsighted. This team didn't have anyone who could produce 50%+ from mid range last year. If teams are going to try to take away PnR and drives to the basket like the Pacers, then you have to be able to hit shots they leave open. Beno and AB can do that. They both have the skill of being able to knock down the Mid Range jumper. We'll still have the 3pt shooting and ISO plays, but we'll be adding good mid range, PnP offense too.

Woody is gonna be able to put AB in better scoring situations. AB won't have to carry the team and I think that's going to help him tremendously. If Woody can get AB to focus more on his defense and rebounding then he'll reach his full potential. He doesn't have to be the greatest rebounder or defender. He simply has to improve his effort on that end.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/nba/sam-mitchell-disappointed-in-andrea-bargnani-development-raptors/

read that article.. not only was he coddled, but mitchell as let go because bargnani was not comfortable with a tough , gritty coach. remember mitchell was a great coach for Bosh, he led the raps to the playoffs, won coach of the year and then was fired? why? to cow tow to soft azz Bargnani.. that is why the raps got in guys like delfino, garbajosa, guys he felt comfortable with.. and what was the result? the raps sucked!!

There is a lot of wishful thinking going on in this thread... woodson first of all is not as good of a coach as mitchell, and woodson is not a good offensive coach, so all this talk of putting AB in better scoring situations is hilarious...

Beno and AB can do that. They both have the skill of being able to knock down the Mid Range jumper. We'll still have the 3pt shooting and ISO plays, but we'll be adding good mid range, PnP offense too.

you make them sound like stockton and malone.. let me ask you, why was no one knocking down the raps door for bargnani and then offering beno more than a vet deal? I mean most of these GM's and scouts are pretty darn bright... both guys were attainable, why not go after them?

This surely will be an interesting season... The bargnani threads are going to be classics..

TKF, Mitchell was fired in 2008! He can say now that he wasn't allowed to coach AB as tough as he wanted, but really that sounds like an excuse. You can still find ways to challenge players without getting nasty and angry with them. Mitchell's style wore on his players beside AB and didn't make the brass happy. If the brass told him not to push AB then they certainly didn't fire him for how AB turned out. Also how can you say Mitchell is better than Woody?

This is what was said about the Raptors playing style when they fired Mitchell:

The Raptors were ranked last in the NBA in fast-break points heading into Wednesday's games, and Triano said he wants the team to play faster.

"I think running becomes a mind-set and a habit," he said. "I think if it's not enforced it becomes easy to walk the ball up the court.

"We're committed to trying to find easier ways to score the basketball."

The Raps were clearly not being coached in a way the brass wanted to see the team play. Sounds like Mitchell was fired because of his coaching style and not AB!!! As for Wood not being as good an offensive coach as Mitchell, well Woody had the #3 offense last year. Mitchell was watching on TV somewhere.

As for me making Beno and AB sound like Stockton and Malone, well of course they won't be on that level, but you can get a good level of that style of BB from them, because they operate at a high efficiency in the PnP. The stats don't lie. Both Beno and AB are at 50% in the mid range where they run PnP.

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2757
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=200745

The thing is that this is what they both do well. There's no argument you can concoct that can refute the evidence in the stats or the videos that clearly show that both AB and Beno are very efficient PnP players. That's a part of the game that few players really excel. Mainly because most players can't hit the mid range jumper like they both can. When AB comes out to set the pick and Beno comes around it, either player that is open can hit the shot at a high %. That's what makes the play successful. What can you say to refute this concept.

here is a quote from the article since I guess you didn't read it.

“I wasn’t allowed to coach Andrea the same way I was allowed to coach Jose (Calderon),” Mitchell told Tim & Sid on Sportsnet 590 The Fan on Wednesday. “I was a hard ass on Jose; I was hard on him, but look at the type of player he turned out to be.

“I was not allowed to be that tough on Andrea because within the organization we felt he couldn’t take it. And my whole thing was if he can’t take it then we can’t build around him. And no one thought Jose could take it, and Jose did.”

Mitchell was fired because he wanted to dig into AB's azz.. bargs could not take it... mitchell had the raps in the playoffs, he also won coach of the year, I don't want to hear this crap it was because of his coaching..

Bargnani is SOFT... and now you guys are trying to sell him as some GEM with a load of untapped potential.... another spin job bro... you have to stop absolving the player and making everything about circumstances.. bargnani is what he is because of HIM.. and when he comes here and you find out that the knicks are no better... I hope you just admit it and not blame someone else... or make another excuse..

The thing is that this is what they both do well. There's no argument you can concoct that can refute the evidence in the stats or the videos that clearly show that both AB and Beno are very efficient PnP players. That's a part of the game that few players really excel. Mainly because most players can't hit the mid range jumper like they both can. When AB comes out to set the pick and Beno comes around it, either player that is open can hit the shot at a high %. That's what makes the play successful. What can you say to refute this concept.

just a question.. neither guy are young players in the sense of time in the league.. both have enough data and scouting to see what they are as players.. why was one player available for peanuts and the other pretty much cast off from his team?

you keep talking about them being efficient PNP players, so was AMARE, how well did that go once carmelo got to the team..

We are not playing pick and roll with 3 sticky finger iso players in carmelo, JR smith and now bargnani.. it is a dream bro,.. and to top it off both beno and AB are not good enough to run your offense through if you want to win, otherwise they would not be here in NY!!! they would be starting for the last team that had them..

well Woody had the #3 offense last year.

yet as you guys claimed our offense sucked in the playoffs.. so what was it, bad coaching?

you keep talking about them being efficient PNP players, so was AMARE, how well did that go once carmelo got to the team..

I think it was going fine until Amare threw out his back dunking before the Celts game and then his knees gave out. Also, as Nix has pointed out on numerous occasions Bargs injuries are different then Amare's in that they are not chronic or career threatening.
In regards to one player being available for peanuts I assume you are talking about Udrih? It seems a bit hypocritical to post a long list of guys that signed for 3.1 mil or less and then criticize the player the Knicks get because the cba forced him into a situation where he had to sign for the vet minimum doesn't it? Also, Bargs needed to be moved from Toronto. Both the raps and Bargs needed a change. That happens sometimes.

i figured someone would say this.. but you didn't read my post.. I said beno and AB have been in the league, those guys who they are... when I made that list, I was highlighting guys who were young, guys we could build and develop with.. guys like BJ mullens and DJ augustine.... these were guys who i felt could not only fill in and give us what we needed, but give us youth to look at for the future..

the rest of that list had guys who I felt were just better than beno and AB who came at a bit steeper price.. so no, it is not hypocritical, i was clear at what I said, you need to read it..

As far as amare, other than his knees.. the worst thing for his game was carmelo....

Well there is a reason Amare can't have his contract insured and it isn't Melo. Also, you had some pretty long in the tooth guys on your list if I recall correctly. Jermaine O'Neal, Brand etc. It seems that if the guy is a Knick pick up he can't be good value and he gets criticized. Beno was a good signing but doesn't seem to fit the criteria of, the knicks didn't get him.

again, if you paid attention, I never even mentioned oneal or brand, the list wasn't a list of guys I endorsed, but a list of FA's... as I said, I talked mostly about younger players, or guys who were an upgrade over beno or AB.. guys who were actually good and didn't have the long history of baggage and excuses..

nixluva wrote:I'm still waiting for TKF to refute the fact that both Beno and AB are very good PnP players who shoot 50% in the mid range off their PnP plays!!! The stats don't lie and the video doesn't lie. These guys get it done in the PnP game and we really needed other options besides just 3's and ISO's. Since Tyson doesn't shoot off the Pick, that meant teams just packed the paint on the PnR and never had to worry about him actually shooting a mid range jumper of the pick. That is something AB specializes in. This is why he was brought in. He can help this team offensively.

The PnP should be very effective when you add the option to not only shoot but drive to the hole as both Beno and AB can do. That mid range jumper is deadly if you can hit it for a high % like STAT did in his 1st year. He had that elbow jumper down and it froze defenders, cuz he could drive or shoot. That's what AB brings to the offense. AB forces defenders to have to get closer to try and stop his mid range jumper and then he's able to pump fake and drive past them if they get too close. Then on top of that AB can post and shoot the spot up 3. There's really no good argument for why we shouldn't be able to get AB back to playing good offense. The real work for Woody is to get thru to AB about the boards and team defense. I trust Woody to be able to help AB improve in those areas.

you are not waiting for that, because I didn't bother to refute it.. I told you that

1) we had a good pick and roll tandem with felton and chandler
2) AB and beno are not good enough to run an offense through
3) We are still an iso offense as carmelo, JR and now AB are all iso players

you keep talking about this magical pick and roll as if our offense is going to be based on that.. we ran pick and roll with felton and Chandler, Jeremy lin was killer with the pick and roll, but guess what.. woodyball, the great enabler will not run that offense..

and as I asked you..why do you keep stressing this pick and roll as if it is going to change this team? we didn't lose because we didn't run pick and roll.. we lost because we don't rebound and score in the paint!