Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:Holfresh - It's all about getting that trophy. I have fun watching games, but in the end it is about having the BEST shot at the championship. Doesn't matter what place we are in right now. My eyes see inconsistant and leaderless play. I do miss Felton but see him for what his career has been, a bit more in NY though.

Knick fans or "being American" - questioning and criticizing is healthy. A fan is not a fanatic in my book, the latter is dangerous...

You're being way too harsh. .640 half-way through a season is basically mission accomplished.

Agreed, I am being harsh but with reason - our terrible history and owner.
It confirms our worries regarding age to a point though. I do think we can win it all IF we get time to play together and build chemistry. Felt that pain with Stat the last two years.

RonRon wrote:

dk7th wrote:

RonRon wrote:

dk7th wrote:

RonRon wrote:

dk7th wrote:i'd add both ridnour and hinrich.

I already have Rose and Rubio, as for Ridnour/Twolves, you might have a case with JJ Barea/Shved/Rubio in there as well

As for Hinrich, I have to give more credit to the coaching staff and the team as more important factor's to Hinrich's skill
Hinrich is a solid player, but he struggled heavily outside of Chicago, with Washington and Atlanta for a couple of year's
He is a great fit for Chicago with his IQ and style of play

Chicago is the Spur's Poppavich of the East
They are just all high IQ, hard working, UNSELFISH, and all have multiple defender's with speed/athleticism to go along with their coaching schemes/discipline
Deng/Noah/Taj Gibson and then Hinrich are the crucial pieces to their defensive schemes

yes chicago has a great group of players and a great coach. hinrich's numbers have been creeping closer to point guard numbers and away from hybrid/tweener numbers over the last several seasons, in terms of his usg/ast ratio. this range is between .80:1 and 1.0:1 while a decent point guard will have a ratio closer to 0.50:1

so you're right that there is a considerable tipping this season since that ration now is in fact around 0.49:1

felton is stuck in tweener territory at 0.83:1 and doesn't help his cause by shooting a putrid TS of 46%. hinrich is not a better shooter thus far but he has been the better orchestrator as the stats illustrate.

I generally don't like to use STAT's because they can be very misleading
It doesn't measure how each player attained those STAT's, for instance, is grabbing 20 rebounds 7 in one play of your own misses very misleading?

I am not saying Hinrich doesn't deserve any credit for orchestrating the offense, but the team/coach deserve's much more credit because they utilize each other with cuts, picks, each other's abilities/mismatches as they read the opponents how they are playing them

My point, Hinrich was unable to be half the player he was in Washington and Atlanta without any consistency at all
He need's high IQ/unselfish players and that is what Chicago has and their style of play, making him a great fit with each other

Hinrich didn't have the players IQ and style of bball that he needs and that is why an important fit is very crucial

so what does this imply about the knicks as a squad and woodson as a coach?

that we run a complete different system and play different style of at least the theories on offense
as well as having multiple high IQ players that are skilled and physically gifted that are not 40 year years of age

in response to holfresh

we played well and we on a groove
Felton is very important to the team but he just is not that good, this is the reality of it
I have said he is important many times, I am not bashing him, I ranked him accordingly

I never said I would try to get those type of PG's or Lebron/Durant, you did

It is obvious that my list is more or less accurate, I don't care what level you think Felton was playing at
Just because he was playing at an All Star Level does not make him an All Star

Lin's was playing at extremely high level last year and we let him walk for NOTHING while trading 4 2nd round picks for Felton/Camby that are under his value
Like Lin, Felton and the Knick's play was at a high level but small sample size
But since Felton is currently a Knick and Lin is not, blast Lin and his achievements and praise Felton while it is a "small sample size"

The truth hurts you as you cannot accept it or dispute it, so blast me and call me a "FAKE" fan
I have been here prior to the Isiah/Layden era, I sure as hell did not jump on the bandwagon then, during Linsanity, or this year's streak

So many posters here with no knowledge/poor understanding of the game of Basketball and the NBA, and they love to argue and prove that other's are wrong/attacking other's posts, as they are right
Some of which have never played any basketball in their life
Many of which think do not realize this as they use STAT's/past history of team to make claims while not even watching/understanding the game itself to evaluate a team and the players in the league
These type of poster's are the difference from when I first joined UK site and these last couple of year's, as they love to argue but have no clue what they are talking about

and if you were in woodson's shoes what would you change in terms of personell and rotations, both as we are now without shumpert and felton, and then when they both come back?

me? i would press boston and chicago after every made basket since they have our number in our halfcourt offense. same with houston for different reasons... lin or harden should not be able to get across half court without being checked. in fact i probably would press and trap lin.

also with boston the garnett pierce picks were killing us and we switched every time-- i would force melo to fight over garnett's pick and take my chances.

so far as new-fangled posters using stats who have no clue i don't know if you are referring to me there, but rest assured i have not been much of a stat guy up until very recently because basketball is such a fluid and dynamic game it's hard to get a bead on what's going on. it took a while for me start believing in myself but i fancy myself a quick study in terms of the eye test. that said, once i have seen a player's game for a while i make my assessment and only afterwards do i look at the stats to see if the stats reinforce my impression.

i like the TS% stat for perimeter players/wings because it demonstrates how well they are holding their weight individually within the team's efforts. i also look to the ratio between usage and assist rate, ie how much of the time the ball is in the player's hands versus how often an assist is made with that same player on the floor. this gives some indication of how well that player is contributing directly to the team concept.

another ratio worth looking at is between FGA/FTA. the lower the figure the more effective the player will be in the playoffs, where the fouling is bound to go up. so for instance when we look at a player like jr smith and see a ratio of almost 4:1 it has to be cause for concern.

traditional statistics like FG% and APG are not as revealing as i had once believed.

RonRon wrote:I was thinking of a very good young player/piece to have and is going to get better

Felton played well during our streak but like Lin's it was too small of a sample size, when you put back a 82 game schedule, the flaw's will come out
However, during Lin's 20-30 game's the ball was constantly in his hand's, and he always attacked the opponent's defense WHILE PASSING AND PENETRATING when player's were open
This is what Felton cannot do because he lack's the IQ/court vision/ability to do it
That is the difference between Lin and Felton, one has peaked and one is just beginning, they both have flaw's
Contrary to what many here believe he was NOT ALWAYS JUST looking to just penetrate

The most impressive thing about Felton this season was the TO department, which he had many games with little to 0 TO's
He was playing well but he not better OVER 2/3rd's of the PG's in the league, end of story
EVERYONE came out and played well, we cannot give all the credit to Felton or ANY ONE person on the roster

Playing PG is not about making Melo and Amare happy, it is about getting utilizing EVERYONE on the roster and ATTACKING/BREAKING down our opponent's DEFENSE
Like NixLuva always says, Melo was not giving it all he had, and partly was because he was NOT PLAYING PF which I insisted Dantoni do as well as playing Lin prior to his run

Melo is doing EVERYTHING that Dantoni wanted him to do with Woodson this year at PF
Is this on Dantoni, Melo, Lin, or Woodson??

It was not our only option, we had the option to keep Lin and have all the player's we have now, $$$ is not an issue till 3 years later, and Dolan has plenty of it, so that was not the reason

Great post. Pretty much my feelings exactly.

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:Holfresh - It's all about getting that trophy. I have fun watching games, but in the end it is about having the BEST shot at the championship. Doesn't matter what place we are in right now. My eyes see inconsistant and leaderless play. I do miss Felton but see him for what his career has been, a bit more in NY though.

Knick fans or "being American" - questioning and criticizing is healthy. A fan is not a fanatic in my book, the latter is dangerous...

You're being way too harsh. .640 half-way through a season is basically mission accomplished.

From .470 to .640...What does that look like on a graph professor???...And it's .649 for you!!!

earthmansurfer wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:Holfresh - It's all about getting that trophy. I have fun watching games, but in the end it is about having the BEST shot at the championship. Doesn't matter what place we are in right now. My eyes see inconsistant and leaderless play. I do miss Felton but see him for what his career has been, a bit more in NY though.

Knick fans or "being American" - questioning and criticizing is healthy. A fan is not a fanatic in my book, the latter is dangerous...

You're being way too harsh. .640 half-way through a season is basically mission accomplished.

Agreed, I am being harsh but with reason - our terrible history and owner.
It confirms our worries regarding age to a point though. I do think we can win it all IF we get time to play together and build chemistry. Felt that pain with Stat the last two years.

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:Holfresh - It's all about getting that trophy. I have fun watching games, but in the end it is about having the BEST shot at the championship. Doesn't matter what place we are in right now. My eyes see inconsistant and leaderless play. I do miss Felton but see him for what his career has been, a bit more in NY though.

Knick fans or "being American" - questioning and criticizing is healthy. A fan is not a fanatic in my book, the latter is dangerous...

You're being way too harsh. .640 half-way through a season is basically mission accomplished.

From .470 to .640...What does that look like on a graph professor???...And it's .649 for you!!!

Like I said, it's looks like mission accomplished

Your mission maybe since you are keeping stats, we talking deep playoff run, that's the mission...

If you mean it, then stop getting upset when people criticize a .649 team. Most .649 teams don't go deep in the playoffs.

The constant belly aching for players long gone and not even that good...Gallo, Lin...My good lord...Are their teams talking Championship???..

We will drag u guys kicking a scratching deep into the playoffs even if u pine for other players...Come along Knick fan!!!!...

It like my kids..Like it, eat it, read it..It's good for u!!!!

RonRon wrote:@ holfresh, you will see what you want to see, continue to look to prove what you believe, and disapprove what I have stated.

No point in spending any more time on this, we could have had all of the above, if it wasn't for Melo's EGO

DID YOU WATCH the games during Lin's run, he did not want to pass Melo the ball because he would not run the play, and MELO TAKE's BAD SHOTS, WE NEED A PG that want's us to take good shot's and SET everyone up/utilize EVERYONE ON THE FLOOR

Lin is not a finished product, while Felton is and likely looking at a downhill in the next couple of year's
I never said he was perfect and he continues to learn and develop today, as he did during a Knick

"HE DID NOT want to pass the ball to Amare and MELO"

He was constantly, passing the ball to Fields/Jeffries/CHANDLER/IMAN as they knew were all on the same page on how to break the opponent's DEFENSE down
They all ran the plays and were trying to break the defense down TOGETHER with each other strengths and how the DEF was playing them.
And guess what Chandler was playing like an ALL STAR during that time, does that make him better than is?
He had many games where he was scoring 20+ points of Lin and 1v1 position's when we broke down the team's defense with his timely cuts
He did not have to cover Amare defense but had Jeffries help him instead, even Novak was boxing out and staying in front of his man during the run.
It doesn't make Chandler better than he is because he had a good run

I suppose Kidd/Pablo doesn't want to pass the ball to Chandler now, in your theory?

NO, he doesn't want his own stage, he want's to be part of the stage, MELO want's his own stage
And that is why Lin was gone, not because he wanted it, because Melo could jealousy/ego could not handle it

YES MDA does suck but he does have good qualities in his system and we cannot take that away from him, as he has changed the game of the NBA in the past decade with system's and philosphies

MDA's problem was not willing to sit Amare which he had complete faith/loyalty in and make Melo the PF so he could initiate the offense with the mismatch and skills he has, he simply cannot do it at the SF, not without a stretch 4, and he still cannot this year

I have said Felton is important to this team but that does not make him better than he is, it does not make him better than the PG's in much over half the league
We cannot use Lin over Pablo?

Kidd is not a PG, he is a SG

Pablo is a 3rd string PG

I have broken down everything very easily to understand, but YOU CHOOSE to to want to hear it, and not to accept it
Continue to put word's in my post's that I did not say, and attack and make up stories about Lin that has no truth to it

We are capped out, adding over mediocre talent is very hard to do, yet we let one walk away for NOTHING and traded 4 2nd round picks for 2 players that has value under his

My man, do you watch the games???..Stop listening to ESPN about Melo playing PF...Most teams cover him with their small forwards..There aren't these delusional mismatches that you or anyone else is talking about...

So Melo was breaking plays and Lin didn't want to pass to thim..What's the excuse for not wanting to pass to Amare..And don't tell me it didn't happen...I brough this up last year as well...

By the way from a couple of post ago...Every one on this board thinks they know what they are talking about...

So Melo was breaking plays and and Lin didn't want to pass to thim..What's the excuse for not wanting to pass to Amare..And don't tell me it didn't happen...I brough this up last year as well...
By the way from a couple of post ago...Every one on this board thinks they know what they are talking about...

I said, MELO at PF would open things up for him since Dantoni was here, I don't listen to ESPN

Where do get that LIN was not passing the ball to STAT, STAT was unable to produce, with Amare, Tyson, Melo on the floor because of the poor spacing/fit, as they were ineffective for the most part. It is just a bad lineup together, a reason why Wooodon wanted Amare to have Hakeem tutor him for some moves to initiate the offense

You make up crap, that you have no clue what you are trying to talk about, to try to prove that you are right....

IF Lin is willing to pass the ball to Jeffries/FIELDS, WHY WOULDN"T HE PASS THE BALL TO AMARE
THE WHOLE RUN LIN MADE, he was passing the ball, and penetrating to break DEFENSE'S DOWN, we played as a unit, that was made the run special, not LIN
There was trust for one another in both ends of the floor, all with less talent on the floor, and we played as ONE UNIT, something Woodson had to preach to some current players

RonRon wrote:My man, do you watch the games???..Stop listening to ESPN about Melo playing PF...Most teams cover him with their small forwards..There aren't these delusional mismatches that you or anyone else is talking about...

So Melo was breaking plays and and Lin didn't want to pass to thim..What's the excuse for not wanting to pass to Amare..And don't tell me it didn't happen...I brough this up last year as well...
By the way from a couple of post ago...Every one on this board thinks they know what they are talking about...

I said, MELO at PF would open things up for him since Dantoni was here, I don't listen to ESPN

Where do get that LIN was not passing the ball to STAT, STAT was unable to produce, with Amare, Tyson, Melo on the floor because of the poor spacing/fit, as they were ineffective for the most part. It is just a bad lineup together, a reason why Wooodon wanted Amare to have Hakeem tutor him for some moves to initiate the offense

You make up crap, that you have no clue what you are trying to talk about, to try to prove that you are right....

IF Lin is willing to pass the ball to Jeffries/FIELDS, WHY WOULDN"T HE PASS THE BALL TO AMARE
THE WHOLE RUN LIN MADE, he was passing the ball, and penetrating to break DEFENSE'S DOWN, we played as a unit, that was made the run special, not LIN
There was trust for one another in both ends of the floor, all with less talent on the floor, and we played as ONE UNIT, something Woodson had to preach to some current players

Lin was waving off Amare last year..And not passing the ball to him...How did u miss that???
Also what mismatches are u talking about Melo exploiting if u didn't mean PF covering him???

RonRon wrote:

holfresh wrote:

RonRon wrote:Okay Holfresh,

So you are you saying I am wrong where I am putting Felton on the list?

1) Where do you have the almost MVP like playing PG on the Knick's ranked at?

2) Are you saying we cannot use Lin's ability on the court this year?

3) *Forget about if Melo get's along with Lin or vice versa*
Just basketball....

DO YOU THINK WE WOULD HAVE a better record at this stage if Lin was on the floor with what we have, which we could have had?

4) In the same theory, IF Lin's RUN was a "small sample size", what is Felton's start to this year?

5) Could we have kept Lin and have every piece we have today?

You can use the same theory to bash ex Knick player's but it doesn't work for current Knick players?
Get's old, so many troll's in here...

So you cannot dispute what I have to say, you continue to bash, other ex Knick player's, and say "YOU LOST ME" when other's clearly can, are they brighter than you, or do you need to get your eye's checked? What is it?

With all due respect..I don't care about the list...I care about whats happening with the team before my eyes and I'm wondering if you are see what I'm seeing???...How did we look as a team???..Are we winning??..Did we play like one of the better teams in the league..

U can't compare Lin's stint...That was a poor team...Played other bad teams..We beat the Lakers when Lin dropped 38 pts I think..People going nuts because they thought it was a barometer..It was the Lakers 5th game in 8 nights on the road...

And No, I don't think we would be better with Lin...He is not a good ball handler/decision maker..I think u are completely wrong on that...If he is such a headly player, why so many turnovers???..

I go one further...I'll take Felton over Lin now and in the playoffs...Lin is not a good defender...He takes too many risk...He isn't as good in the half court..We talking pure basketball right???..Talking about sample size... Felton played all star like last time he was here too... putting up 17 and 9...He was the second best player behind Amare..He had Amare playing like an all star..Did u forget that???...Amare has never been the same player since Felton left...Yet..U give Felton zero credit for making others better..What does you eyes tell you now???

You don't want to answer my questions cause you know what the answers are, you can't dispute it

ANd you can have BOTH LIN AND FELTON, I AM NOT SAYING WHO IS BETTER, they are DIFFERENT, WE CAN USE BOTH PLAYERS, end of story.

YOU ARE THE ONE SAYING FELTON is having a MVP season in the start of the season, it doesn't make him an ALL STAR

LIN was also having a ALL STAR RUN, in the same theory, there you u again, use the theory when it works for your argument, and bash it to one's you disapprove of

Im not avoiding your question..No doubt in my mind we needed Lin back...Absolutely...I can go back and show u how many times I said we should keep Lin and bring in Felton...I still wish we had him...I never said Felton is having an MVP season...I said he was playing a notch below an all star...Before his injury, he was having a better season than DWill...

Please show me where I said Felton is having an MVP season???...There are two things in the last post u attribute to me which never happened!!!

I never said Felton was an all star..I never said Felton was have an MVP run...Melo however...Guilty...

holfresh wrote:

RonRon wrote:My man, do you watch the games???..Stop listening to ESPN about Melo playing PF...Most teams cover him with their small forwards..There aren't these delusional mismatches that you or anyone else is talking about...

So Melo was breaking plays and and Lin didn't want to pass to thim..What's the excuse for not wanting to pass to Amare..And don't tell me it didn't happen...I brough this up last year as well...
By the way from a couple of post ago...Every one on this board thinks they know what they are talking about...

I said, MELO at PF would open things up for him since Dantoni was here, I don't listen to ESPN

Where do get that LIN was not passing the ball to STAT, STAT was unable to produce, with Amare, Tyson, Melo on the floor because of the poor spacing/fit, as they were ineffective for the most part. It is just a bad lineup together, a reason why Wooodon wanted Amare to have Hakeem tutor him for some moves to initiate the offense

You make up crap, that you have no clue what you are trying to talk about, to try to prove that you are right....

IF Lin is willing to pass the ball to Jeffries/FIELDS, WHY WOULDN"T HE PASS THE BALL TO AMARE
THE WHOLE RUN LIN MADE, he was passing the ball, and penetrating to break DEFENSE'S DOWN, we played as a unit, that was made the run special, not LIN
There was trust for one another in both ends of the floor, all with less talent on the floor, and we played as ONE UNIT, something Woodson had to preach to some current players

Lin was waving off Amare last year..And not passing the ball to him...How did u miss that???
Also what mismatches are u talking about Melo exploiting if u didn't mean PF covering him???

this happened ONCE IN MEMPHIS and you use it for what POINT?
WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER GAMES WE PLAYED, 1 FREAKING GAME
1 Game negates the other 20+ games that we were playing "out of our minds"

so you are saying Melo does not play better at the PF?
It does not allow him to utilize a mismatch, handle the ball, hit the 3pointer, set up his team mates, space the floor with other shooters, post up with both midrange and deep post, play solid DEF, and penetrate off the dribble?

How come he does not do all of this effectively when he play's SF?
It's a mismatch from Dantoni's Philosphy....

You praise about our record and then crap on the idea of MELO at PF during the win streak's we had....

WHAT THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN WATCHING?????

Quit it, you are making yourself look silly.....

Waste of time on talking to u

What role did Dantoni want Melo to play? Point Forward?
What has he been doing during this whole year??
staying outside shooting 3's, posting up, setting up team mates, creating for other's, taking quality shot's being selective of shot's, move the ball, and attack the DEFENSE....

But of course, you are going to say Lin and Dantoni wanted Melo to stay outside to be a 3point shooter/decoy.....SMH

And NOT EVERYTHING else that he has been doing at the position......