NotInMyHouse wrote:firefly, smackeddog, and Martin

A bit hard to take 50 minutes and summarize it as lots of data was given (from CDC and WHO.) I’ll give some main points. They are not saying anything extreme re getting things going again. A gradual opening up is all.

Statistically, lockdown vs. non-lockdown did not display a significantly different number of deaths. (Special note to firefly here.)

We have a VERY high infection rate and a very low death rate, in line with the flu (with more of a respiratory component). The asymptomatic rate, I believe is near 25%. 90% or so of deaths have comorbidity (e.g. heart failure, emphysema, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, are on immunological medication, immune deficient, HIV, etc.) Healthy people dying of CV19 are infinitesimally small.

The statistics do not back up what we are doing (anymore) – We used models at first (and those models which predicted from 100’s of thousands to millions of deaths) are way off. We are destroying our economy, way of life and increasing: spousal abuse, anger, alcoholism, anxiety, depression, suicide, child molestation (lifetime of effects) and on. The cost of what we are doing no longer makes any sense.

Look at the infection rates and chance of death from CV19. Some statistics:

California
280,930 tested, 33,865 tested positive = 12% infected
1,227 deaths = .03% chance of dying from CV19
96% chance of recovery with no significant medical problems

NY State
649,325 tested, 256,272 tested positive = 39% infected
19,410 deaths (19 million people) = .1% chance of death
92% chance of recovery with no significant medical Problems

United States
4+ million tested, 802,590 tested positive = 19.6% infected
50,000 deaths (331 million pop.) = .015% chance of death

Spain
930,000 tested, 204,178 positive = 22% infection rate
21,282 deaths = .05% chance of death
90% chance of recovery with no significant medical problems

Sweden (No lockdown, light social distancing)
74,600 tested, 15,322 positive = 21% infection rate
1,765 deaths with no isolation = .017 % chance of death

What really gets my goat, is that you're obviously a person with a brain. You've spent time putting your post together and your efforts are appreciated.

What annoys me more than anything else is that somehow you're trying to sell an analysis of the data that directly contradicts what the data says. In fact the data flat-out disagrees with you.

Have a look. You've tried to downplay coronavirus by comparing death rates to numbers of tests done. Bringing a nice bold figure that is very low. And with that you are trying to say that this virus is being overblown. What you are in actuality saying is that in a world where a majority of people test negative, the risk of death is low. However, if you were to compare the death rate to the positive test number, you would see that mortality for this disease is is around 5%. This is an incredibly high number. It indicates that one in twenty people with coronavirus will die. That's two kids in each classroom on average.

Therefore, the only reason why the numbers you have given are so low as compared to the number of tests performed is because of social distancing. Social distancing meant more and more people tested negative.

And so what you've done here is provide a very elegant and eloquent rationale to continue social distancing.

Thank you.

(And btw a 5% mortality rate is NOT in line with the flu. I'd appreciate if you stopped repeating that travesty of a mistruth)

Allanfan20 wrote:

martin wrote:

NotInMyHouse wrote:Luckily, we are going to start SLOWLY opening up on May 1st. I am not sure how much longer people would have lasted tbh.

Stay healthy

Like where? Cause I don't see that happening except those odd bowling alleys in Georgia.

Also, articles from Spike-Online? Can we do better than that?

May 15th in NY. Hopefully we stay the course for either that or June 1st.

May 15 is just the latest estimate by Cuomo, we know that he has marched this date back very regularly, right? I mean he overtly talks about it, right?

Young and middle-aged people, barely sick with covid-19, are dying of strokes
Doctors sound alarm about patients in their 30s and 40s left debilitated or dead. Some didn’t even know they were infected.
By
Ariana Eunjung Cha
April 25, 2020 at 7:12 p.m. GMT+1
PLEASE NOTE
The Washington Post is providing this important information about the coronavirus for free. For more free coverage of the coronavirus pandemic, sign up for our daily Coronavirus Updates newsletter where all stories are free to read.

Thomas Oxley wasn’t even on call the day he received the page to come to Mount Sinai Beth Israel Hospital in Manhattan. There weren’t enough doctors to treat all the emergency stroke patients, and he was needed in the operating room.

The patient’s chart appeared unremarkable at first glance. He took no medications and had no history of chronic conditions. He had been feeling fine, hanging out at home during the lockdown like the rest of the country, when suddenly, he had trouble talking and moving the right side of his body. Imaging showed a large blockage on the left side of his head.

Oxley gasped when he got to the patient’s age and covid-19 status: 44, positive.

AD
The man was among several recent stroke patients in their 30s to 40s who were all infected with the coronavirus. The median age for that type of severe stroke is 74.

As Oxley, an interventional neurologist, began the procedure to remove the clot, he observed something he had never seen before. On the monitors, the brain typically shows up as a tangle of black squiggles — “like a can of spaghetti,” he said — that provide a map of blood vessels. A clot shows up as a blank spot. As he used a needlelike device to pull out the clot, he saw new clots forming in real-time around it.

“This is crazy,” he remembers telling his boss.

Sign up for our Coronavirus Updates newsletter to track the outbreak. All stories linked in the newsletter are free to access.

Stroke surge
Reports of strokes in the young and middle-aged — not just at Mount Sinai, but also in many other hospitals in communities hit hard by the novel coronavirus — are the latest twist in our evolving understanding of the disease it causes. The numbers of those affected are small but nonetheless remarkable because they challenge how doctors understand the virus. Even as it has infected nearly 2.8 million people worldwide and killed about 195,000 as of Friday, its biological mechanisms continue to elude top scientific minds. Once thought to be a pathogen that primarily attacks the lungs, it has turned out to be a much more formidable foe — impacting nearly every major organ system in the body.

AD
Until recently, there was little hard data on strokes and covid-19.

There was one report out of Wuhan, China, that showed that some hospitalized patients had experienced strokes, with many being seriously ill and elderly. But the linkage was considered more of “a clinical hunch by a lot of really smart people,” said Sherry H-Y Chou, a University of Pittsburgh Medical Center neurologist and critical care doctor.

Now for the first time, three large U.S. medical centers are preparing to publish data on the stroke phenomenon. There are only a few dozen cases per location, but they provide new insights into what the virus does to our bodies.

Coronavirus destroys lungs. But doctors are finding its damage in kidneys, hearts and elsewhere.

A stroke, which is a sudden interruption of the blood supply, is a complex problem with numerous causes and presentations. It can be caused by heart problems, clogged arteries due to cholesterol, even substance abuse. Mini-strokes often don’t cause permanent damage and can resolve on their own within 24 hours. But bigger ones can be catastrophic.

AD
The analyses suggest coronavirus patients are mostly experiencing the deadliest type of stroke. Known as large vessel occlusions, or LVOs, they can obliterate large parts of the brain responsible for movement, speech and decision-making in one blow because they are in the main blood-supplying arteries.

Many researchers suspect strokes in covid-19 patients may be a direct consequence of blood problems that are producing clots all over some people’s bodies.

Clots that form on vessel walls fly upward. One that started in the calves might migrate to the lungs, causing a blockage called a pulmonary embolism that arrests breathing — a known cause of death in covid-19 patients. Clots in or near the heart might lead to a heart attack, another common cause of death. Anything above that would probably go to the brain, leading to a stroke.

AD
Robert Stevens, a critical care doctor at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, called strokes “one of the most dramatic manifestations” of the blood-clotting issues. “We’ve also taken care of patients in their 30s with stroke and covid, and this was extremely surprising,” he said.

Many doctors expressed worry that as the New York City Fire Department was picking up four times as many people who died at home as normal during the peak of infection that some of the dead had suffered sudden strokes. The truth may never be known because few autopsies were conducted.

Chou said one question is whether the clotting is because of a direct attack on the blood vessels, or a “friendly-fire problem” caused by the patient’s immune response.

“In your body’s attempt to fight off the virus, does the immune response end up hurting your brain?” she asked. Chou is hoping to answer such questions through a review of strokes and other neurological complications in thousands of covid-19 patients treated at 68 medical centers in 17 countries.

Thomas Jefferson University Hospitals, which operates 14 medical centers in Philadelphia, and NYU Langone Health in New York City, found that 12 of their patients treated for large blood blockages in their brains during a three-week period had the virus. Forty percent were under 50, and they had few or no risk factors. Their paper is under review by a medical journal, said Pascal Jabbour, a neurosurgeon at Thomas Jefferson.

AD
In the vast majority of younger adults, covid-19 appears to result in mild illness with the risk of more severe consequences rising with every decade of age. According to Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data, 0.8 percent of U.S. deaths as of Apr. 18 were in people ages 25 to 34; 2 percent among those 35 to 44; and 5.4 percent among those 45 to 54.

Jabbour and his co-author Eytan Raz, an assistant professor of neuroradiology at NYU Langone, said that strokes in covid-19 patients challenge conventional thinking. “We are used to thinking of 60 as a young patient when it comes to large vessel occlusions,” Raz said of the deadliest strokes. “We have never seen so many in their 50s, 40s and late 30s.”

Raz wondered whether they are seeing more young patients because they are more resistant than the elderly to the respiratory distress caused by covid-19: “So they survive the lung side, and in time develop other issues.”

AD
A mysterious blood-clotting complication is killing coronavirus patients

Jabbour said many cases he has treated have unusual characteristics. Brain clots usually appear in the arteries, which carry blood away from the heart. But in covid-19 patients, he is also seeing them in the veins, which carry blood in the opposite direction and are trickier to treat. Some patients are also developing more than one large clot in their heads, which is highly unusual.

“We’ll be treating a blood vessel and it will go fine, but then the patient will have a major stroke” because of a clot in another part of the brain, he said.

The 33-year-old
At Mount Sinai, the largest medical system in New York City, physician-researcher J Mocco said the number of patients coming in with large blood blockages in their brains doubled during the three weeks of the covid-19 surge to more than 32, even as the number of other emergencies fell. More than half of were covid-19 positive.

AD
It isn’t just the number of patients that was unusual. The first wave of the pandemic has hit the elderly and those with heart disease, diabetes, obesity or other preexisting conditions disproportionately. The covid-19 patients treated for stroke at Mount Sinai were younger and mostly without risk factors.

On average, the covid-19 stroke patients were 15 years younger than stroke patients without the virus.

“These are people among the least likely statistically to have a stroke,” Mocco said.

Mocco, who has spent his career studying strokes and how to treat them, said he was “completely shocked” by the analysis. He noted the link between covid-19 and stroke “is one of the clearest and most profound correlations I’ve come across.”

AD
“This is much too powerful of a signal to be chance or happenstance,” he said.

In a letter to be published in the New England Journal of Medicine next week, the Mount Sinai team details five case studies of young patients who had strokes at home from March 23 to April 7. They make for difficult reading: The victims’ ages are 33, 37, 39, 44 and 49, and they were all home when they began to experience sudden symptoms, including slurred speech, confusion, drooping on one side of the face and a dead feeling in one arm.

One died, two are still hospitalized, one was released to rehabilitation, and one was released home to the care of his brother. Only one of the five, a 33-year-old woman, is able to speak.

Oxley, the interventional neurologist, said one striking aspect of the cases is how long many waited before seeking emergency care.

The 33-year-old woman was previously healthy but had a cough and headache for about a week. Over the course of 28 hours, she noticed her speech was slurred and that she was going numb and weak on her left side but, the researchers wrote, “delayed seeking emergency care due to fear of the covid-19 outbreak.”

It turned out she was already infected.

By the time she arrived at the hospital, a CT scan showed she had two clots in her brain and patchy “ground glass” in her lungs — the opacity in CT scans that is a hallmark of covid-19 infection. She was given two different types of therapy to try to break up the clots and by Day 10, she was well enough to be discharged.

Oxley said the most important thing for people to understand is that large strokes are very treatable. Doctors are often able to reopen blocked blood vessels through techniques such as pulling out clots or inserting stents. But it has to be done quickly, ideally within six hours, but no longer than 24 hours: “The message we are trying to get out is if you have symptoms of stroke, you need to call the ambulance urgently. ”

As for the 44-year-old man Oxley was treating, doctors were able to remove the large clot that day in late March, but the patient is still struggling. As of this week, a little over a month after he arrived in the emergency room, he is still hospitalized.

Coronavirus: What you need to read
The Washington Post is providing some coronavirus coverage free, including:
Updated April 25, 2020
Live updates: The latest in the U.S. and abroad

More stories today: Trump comments prompt doctors, Lysol to warn against injecting disinfectants | Remembering the Americans who have died of covid-19

Mapping the spread: Cases and deaths in the U.S. | Map of cases worldwide

What you need to know: Stay-at-home orders by state | Personal finance guide | Make your own fabric mask | Follow all of our coronavirus coverage and sign up for our daily newsletter.

How to help: Your community | Seniors | Restaurants | Keep at-risk people in mind

Share your story: Has someone close to you died from covid-19?

firefly wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/24/strokes-coronavirus-young-patients/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most

Young and middle-aged people, barely sick with covid-19, are dying of strokes
Doctors sound alarm about patients in their 30s and 40s left debilitated or dead. Some didn’t even know they were infected.
By
Ariana Eunjung Cha
April 25, 2020 at 7:12 p.m. GMT+1
PLEASE NOTE
The Washington Post is providing this important information about the coronavirus for free. For more free coverage of the coronavirus pandemic, sign up for our daily Coronavirus Updates newsletter where all stories are free to read.

Thomas Oxley wasn’t even on call the day he received the page to come to Mount Sinai Beth Israel Hospital in Manhattan. There weren’t enough doctors to treat all the emergency stroke patients, and he was needed in the operating room.

The patient’s chart appeared unremarkable at first glance. He took no medications and had no history of chronic conditions. He had been feeling fine, hanging out at home during the lockdown like the rest of the country, when suddenly, he had trouble talking and moving the right side of his body. Imaging showed a large blockage on the left side of his head.

Oxley gasped when he got to the patient’s age and covid-19 status: 44, positive.

AD
The man was among several recent stroke patients in their 30s to 40s who were all infected with the coronavirus. The median age for that type of severe stroke is 74.

As Oxley, an interventional neurologist, began the procedure to remove the clot, he observed something he had never seen before. On the monitors, the brain typically shows up as a tangle of black squiggles — “like a can of spaghetti,” he said — that provide a map of blood vessels. A clot shows up as a blank spot. As he used a needlelike device to pull out the clot, he saw new clots forming in real-time around it.

“This is crazy,” he remembers telling his boss.

Sign up for our Coronavirus Updates newsletter to track the outbreak. All stories linked in the newsletter are free to access.

Stroke surge
Reports of strokes in the young and middle-aged — not just at Mount Sinai, but also in many other hospitals in communities hit hard by the novel coronavirus — are the latest twist in our evolving understanding of the disease it causes. The numbers of those affected are small but nonetheless remarkable because they challenge how doctors understand the virus. Even as it has infected nearly 2.8 million people worldwide and killed about 195,000 as of Friday, its biological mechanisms continue to elude top scientific minds. Once thought to be a pathogen that primarily attacks the lungs, it has turned out to be a much more formidable foe — impacting nearly every major organ system in the body.

AD
Until recently, there was little hard data on strokes and covid-19.

There was one report out of Wuhan, China, that showed that some hospitalized patients had experienced strokes, with many being seriously ill and elderly. But the linkage was considered more of “a clinical hunch by a lot of really smart people,” said Sherry H-Y Chou, a University of Pittsburgh Medical Center neurologist and critical care doctor.

Now for the first time, three large U.S. medical centers are preparing to publish data on the stroke phenomenon. There are only a few dozen cases per location, but they provide new insights into what the virus does to our bodies.

Coronavirus destroys lungs. But doctors are finding its damage in kidneys, hearts and elsewhere.

A stroke, which is a sudden interruption of the blood supply, is a complex problem with numerous causes and presentations. It can be caused by heart problems, clogged arteries due to cholesterol, even substance abuse. Mini-strokes often don’t cause permanent damage and can resolve on their own within 24 hours. But bigger ones can be catastrophic.

AD
The analyses suggest coronavirus patients are mostly experiencing the deadliest type of stroke. Known as large vessel occlusions, or LVOs, they can obliterate large parts of the brain responsible for movement, speech and decision-making in one blow because they are in the main blood-supplying arteries.

Many researchers suspect strokes in covid-19 patients may be a direct consequence of blood problems that are producing clots all over some people’s bodies.

Clots that form on vessel walls fly upward. One that started in the calves might migrate to the lungs, causing a blockage called a pulmonary embolism that arrests breathing — a known cause of death in covid-19 patients. Clots in or near the heart might lead to a heart attack, another common cause of death. Anything above that would probably go to the brain, leading to a stroke.

AD
Robert Stevens, a critical care doctor at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, called strokes “one of the most dramatic manifestations” of the blood-clotting issues. “We’ve also taken care of patients in their 30s with stroke and covid, and this was extremely surprising,” he said.

Many doctors expressed worry that as the New York City Fire Department was picking up four times as many people who died at home as normal during the peak of infection that some of the dead had suffered sudden strokes. The truth may never be known because few autopsies were conducted.

Chou said one question is whether the clotting is because of a direct attack on the blood vessels, or a “friendly-fire problem” caused by the patient’s immune response.

“In your body’s attempt to fight off the virus, does the immune response end up hurting your brain?” she asked. Chou is hoping to answer such questions through a review of strokes and other neurological complications in thousands of covid-19 patients treated at 68 medical centers in 17 countries.

Thomas Jefferson University Hospitals, which operates 14 medical centers in Philadelphia, and NYU Langone Health in New York City, found that 12 of their patients treated for large blood blockages in their brains during a three-week period had the virus. Forty percent were under 50, and they had few or no risk factors. Their paper is under review by a medical journal, said Pascal Jabbour, a neurosurgeon at Thomas Jefferson.

AD
In the vast majority of younger adults, covid-19 appears to result in mild illness with the risk of more severe consequences rising with every decade of age. According to Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data, 0.8 percent of U.S. deaths as of Apr. 18 were in people ages 25 to 34; 2 percent among those 35 to 44; and 5.4 percent among those 45 to 54.

Jabbour and his co-author Eytan Raz, an assistant professor of neuroradiology at NYU Langone, said that strokes in covid-19 patients challenge conventional thinking. “We are used to thinking of 60 as a young patient when it comes to large vessel occlusions,” Raz said of the deadliest strokes. “We have never seen so many in their 50s, 40s and late 30s.”

Raz wondered whether they are seeing more young patients because they are more resistant than the elderly to the respiratory distress caused by covid-19: “So they survive the lung side, and in time develop other issues.”

AD
A mysterious blood-clotting complication is killing coronavirus patients

Jabbour said many cases he has treated have unusual characteristics. Brain clots usually appear in the arteries, which carry blood away from the heart. But in covid-19 patients, he is also seeing them in the veins, which carry blood in the opposite direction and are trickier to treat. Some patients are also developing more than one large clot in their heads, which is highly unusual.

“We’ll be treating a blood vessel and it will go fine, but then the patient will have a major stroke” because of a clot in another part of the brain, he said.

The 33-year-old
At Mount Sinai, the largest medical system in New York City, physician-researcher J Mocco said the number of patients coming in with large blood blockages in their brains doubled during the three weeks of the covid-19 surge to more than 32, even as the number of other emergencies fell. More than half of were covid-19 positive.

AD
It isn’t just the number of patients that was unusual. The first wave of the pandemic has hit the elderly and those with heart disease, diabetes, obesity or other preexisting conditions disproportionately. The covid-19 patients treated for stroke at Mount Sinai were younger and mostly without risk factors.

On average, the covid-19 stroke patients were 15 years younger than stroke patients without the virus.

“These are people among the least likely statistically to have a stroke,” Mocco said.

Mocco, who has spent his career studying strokes and how to treat them, said he was “completely shocked” by the analysis. He noted the link between covid-19 and stroke “is one of the clearest and most profound correlations I’ve come across.”

AD
“This is much too powerful of a signal to be chance or happenstance,” he said.

In a letter to be published in the New England Journal of Medicine next week, the Mount Sinai team details five case studies of young patients who had strokes at home from March 23 to April 7. They make for difficult reading: The victims’ ages are 33, 37, 39, 44 and 49, and they were all home when they began to experience sudden symptoms, including slurred speech, confusion, drooping on one side of the face and a dead feeling in one arm.

One died, two are still hospitalized, one was released to rehabilitation, and one was released home to the care of his brother. Only one of the five, a 33-year-old woman, is able to speak.

Oxley, the interventional neurologist, said one striking aspect of the cases is how long many waited before seeking emergency care.

The 33-year-old woman was previously healthy but had a cough and headache for about a week. Over the course of 28 hours, she noticed her speech was slurred and that she was going numb and weak on her left side but, the researchers wrote, “delayed seeking emergency care due to fear of the covid-19 outbreak.”

It turned out she was already infected.

By the time she arrived at the hospital, a CT scan showed she had two clots in her brain and patchy “ground glass” in her lungs — the opacity in CT scans that is a hallmark of covid-19 infection. She was given two different types of therapy to try to break up the clots and by Day 10, she was well enough to be discharged.

Oxley said the most important thing for people to understand is that large strokes are very treatable. Doctors are often able to reopen blocked blood vessels through techniques such as pulling out clots or inserting stents. But it has to be done quickly, ideally within six hours, but no longer than 24 hours: “The message we are trying to get out is if you have symptoms of stroke, you need to call the ambulance urgently. ”

As for the 44-year-old man Oxley was treating, doctors were able to remove the large clot that day in late March, but the patient is still struggling. As of this week, a little over a month after he arrived in the emergency room, he is still hospitalized.

Coronavirus: What you need to read
The Washington Post is providing some coronavirus coverage free, including:
Updated April 25, 2020
Live updates: The latest in the U.S. and abroad

More stories today: Trump comments prompt doctors, Lysol to warn against injecting disinfectants | Remembering the Americans who have died of covid-19

Mapping the spread: Cases and deaths in the U.S. | Map of cases worldwide

What you need to know: Stay-at-home orders by state | Personal finance guide | Make your own fabric mask | Follow all of our coronavirus coverage and sign up for our daily newsletter.

How to help: Your community | Seniors | Restaurants | Keep at-risk people in mind

Share your story: Has someone close to you died from covid-19?

The ICU doctor that was taking care of my mother said the same thing. This thing does a lot more than people understand. The virus wrecked her kidneys. She did not get the heart, brain or clotting issues that some other people get. The interesting thing is she had just recently gotten a kidney test within the last month before she got the virus since she was diabetic. The test showed she had perfect kidney function. A day or two before she passed the ICU Doctor said her kidneys were so badly damaged that she would need to be on dialysis if she were to make it out alive.

djsunyc wrote:

Marv wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Being from New York it really wount matter who I vote for as it always goes to the democrats. Now if the election was decided by the popular vote then my vote would matter. Electorial college vs popular vote is a whole another matter tho, not going to get into that. The discussion here is about my "hypothetical" vote. Why don't I vote blue no matter who?
Believe me when I say this Trump is for corporations, he is for himself and he is against the little guy. No question. However Biden is even more so. How? Biden is senile, he cannot even speak for 5 minutes without embarrassing himself. This man is not going to make any decisions, they will all be made for him. Who will make all the decisions? The lobby will. We all know that lobbyists = corporations. Yes Trump is the same, almost. What does Trump have that Biden doesn't ? He is an ignorant, narcissistic man. He actually cares what people think about him, he cares a lot. Yes he has stupid ideas like The Wall. But at least they are HIS stupid ideas. Biden is just a puppet, Trump is not so much. Both terrible but out of the two evils here at least I know what I have in Trump, mostly harmless and incompetent. ( his covid handling was criminal, but other than that I mean) Biden on the other hand could be more dangerous.
Maybe it's all because I feel so betrayed by Sanders. Instead of calling Biden out and attacking him like politicians do Sanders goes and says "Joe is a good man" wtf is that? I know it's maybe right on a human level but I don't want my president to be a nice guy. I want him to fight for those who put the trust into him. Anyway I cannot make both Teump and Biden lose, one of them has to win and I just hope it's not Biden.

wow. this is how trump did and will get elected.

bernie wants medicare for all. he is also a big proponent of global warming.

you may not get it all in one shot but voting dem will progress in that direction. dems created obamacare which was a huge step in the medicare for all direction. dems also are big proponents of the environment.

you may not like biden, you may think they are "corporate dems" but the fact is voting trump or republican means you will NEVER get medicare for all and you will NEVER get protections for the environment. NEVER. and not only that, they will try to roll back any progress made on those fronts. that's fact.

voting dem will not get it all on in shot but it will slowly progress in that direction. that's fact.

so strong bernie supporters need to ask themselves the ultimate question on election day - can you think macro and move towards your ultimate goal or will your ego and need to make a point distract you and cause even more damage to your cause. ultimately not voting dem means the issues were never really a factor to begin with.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/america-not-set-up-for-coronavirus-fema-disaster-preparedness_n_5ea491f3c5b6d37635909669

But Bernie is playing in a homerun derby and can't figure out how to hit anything but doubles and an occasional triple when HRs are needed and needed often. During the offseason of 2017-2019 Bernie did not rethink or tweak his strategy and from what I could tell only practiced at hitting doubles and triples before entering the HR derby of the 2019/20 primary season.

When I talk to my Bernie supports - and they are all very passionate and I love that in them - the first thing they criticize and object to is the DNC and big business and corporate whores who control everything. Well, in my analogy, that's ****ing first base and you aren't going to get past that without accepting the rules of engagement. Those are your hurdles. Don't complain about it after you lose. Fucking plan for it and make sure when you are up at bat you know you need to hit that HR to put points on your board and DEAL with it. Biden is an old dude with a past you can beat him to a pulp with and he was down to zero cash, you got to CRUSH someone like that, but you must also make sure you gameplan is sound.

Stop crying crocodile tears Bernie supporters and start asking yourself why YOUR candidate didn't plan properly, why your candidate can't seem to win large swaths of particular voters, why your voters don't show up when you need them to. Why your message isn't getting there. He had the momentum. He had the $$$. Obama showed you at least 1 path. You are going to need to get in bed with some folks who you don't like; double wrap the condom, do your business but win win win and get to the White House and THEN throw them to the side of the road like a used condom.

People would like to criticize Hilary as the most flawed candidate who lost to the biggest fool in the entirety of presidential candidates... well, Bernie got 3rd place or worst in that run-off.

Man up and stop making it about everything else out there and start looking at why Bernie didn't practice his HR swing. And acknowledge you are going to have to get in bed with some corporate whores.

For my money, I felt like the path to a more progressive path for the 2020 election was thru Warren, but it would have taken Bernie to acknowledge that he was not going to be the frontrunner for his people and to get behind someone else, throw his weight there and drive home his beliefs. There were 2 lanes this past year, Warren and Bernie occupied one and Biden rode out the other.

martin wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Maybe you guys are right. Maybe Biden is better than Trump. I honestly don't know. We will not find out likely as Trump will crush him. That's my prediction.

Honest, direct question: How is this a maybe question to you? What do you think of Trump and why do you think maybe he is in the same political realm as Biden?

Doesn’t matter if Biden is way better. With these allegations, Trump could easily win this next election........ unfortunately.

ramtour420 wrote:

martin wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Maybe you guys are right. Maybe Biden is better than Trump. I honestly don't know. We will not find out likely as Trump will crush him. That's my prediction.

Honest, direct question: How is this a maybe question to you? What do you think of Trump and why do you think maybe he is in the same political realm as Biden?

Let's start with Trump. He is terrible for the environment, terrible for the lower income population and his stance on healthcare is horrendous. He withdrew troops from Syria.

Biden is better for the environment but is just as horrendous on healthcare, was for invading Iraq and overthrowing Saddam Hussein. Also was for bombing of Kosovo. This kinda scares me. He wants to decriminalize pot on the federal level. Because of his environment and pro-cannabis stance he seems better. Because he is pro- military it's gets downgraded to " maybe better"

brother u got a lot of work to do to educate yourself. Biden was a major driving force behind obtaining the affordable care act which republicans went on a major offensive against and then trump did everytbing possible to decimate.

Should I go next door and get a so-so slice of pizza at Joe's or should I eat coronavirus infected orange-colored **** off the sidewalk? I can't decide