A man stormed into an LGBTQ affirming church in Tempe, Ariz., and proceeded to go on an antigay tirade, which included threats to spread lies about the congregation.

Police say the man saw the rainbow flag hanging outside the Community Christian Church and since Donald Trump is our soon-to-be president felt empowered to make his message of hatred and intimdation known.

After telling a church employee what he thought about gay people, he threatened to pay people to protest outside the church and to spread lies about the church with charges of pedophilia.

“He said that if Hillary would have won he would have driven right on by the church without stopping, but because Trump won he felt he had permission to say and act the way he wanted to expressing the hate that he had for this particular group of people,” Pastor Doug Bland told KPHO.

“I think it’s a challenge to us to make sure we respond with love and with grace instead of responding hate for hate,” he added.

Instead of backing down in the face of hatred, the church hung a second flag next to the pride flag, with words reading “Lovers in a Dangerous Time,” in reference to the 1984 Bruce Cockburn song.

The man has not been charged since detectives say the man didn’t commit a crime. If he returns he may be arrested for tresspassing.

Pastor Bland posted about the incident on Facebook, calling for prayers. It has since gone viral.

validated and empowered.

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:- we have not a "race" problem but African American nation problem. We just overlooked that new nation of people get created with specific culture which has no place yet to safe-realize and even cannot yet identifie itself. Racism is also there but this is not the major issue.

I'm sorry but you're going to have to more clearly explain this statement. I can't understand what you're trying to say here. What do you mean by "African American nation problem"? What do you mean by "new nation of people created with specific culture which has no place"?

I'm really not sure what you are saying and want you to elaborate on these points.

Every nation need place to realize it suverenity. It may be independent country or cultural enclave inside multi-national country.
It can be territorial or just cultural identity.
I believe that Afro-Americans are a new nation in the process of self-realization.
There are clearly many people of African race who are not African Americans while leaving in USA. They are representing other nations - like Iruba, Nigerians, etc.
All of then can be a subject of racism. But for African Americans it is obviously more to it.
American nation is a mix of emigrants from all over the world who came here at their own will and many with no intentions to maintain their national identity but rather became American nationals politically and culturally. It is not true however for many people who are there not by their will or were there before colonization like Native Americans and Northers People. They want to maintain their national identity separate from US Americans. And they have all rights to do so.
Same true for African Americans. But I think they just start to realize this national identity.
I think the whole American society will need to realize and embrace it. But this process is complicated and just starting.
It is definitely bigger that this Trump-no-Trump distractions.

WOW! You have a lot of concepts in your post. To simplify things from my perspective I won't try to address all of your points. Let me just say this, African Americans have ALWAYS been part of the fabric of this country! Even when we weren't considered to be so.

AA's have fought in every war this country ever fought. After gaining freedom AA's could've taken violent revenge on a massive scale but in fact that was relatively rare! All AA's ever wanted was to be treated fairly and with respect and to pursue the American Dream!

There was NEVER any justification for violence and oppression inflicted upon AA's. The restraint under the circumstances is a badge of honor and a rebuke to this nation that they were treated so poorly for so long. For what reason were AA's denied their rights or mistreated??? There is no reason other than pure evil and greed.

To this very day this country has never fully lived up to the debt they owe AA's. There would be no America as we know it without AA's. Our story is inextricably intertwined with the history of this country. We are America just as much if not more than most since we gave all for this country and received so little of the spoils of success we helped create. If you don't know what I'm talking about then go look up the many resources on how much AA's contributed to the fortunes of this country.

This is all fair and true.
My question is how you identify yourself and AA people inside America - as a unique nation which need to be treated as such or you want to dissolve into American nation which has no concept or race, nationality, and cultural identity other that American? You cannot have it both ways - it is the choice to be made.
As far as someone owe something to somebody I do not believe in this.
I owe nothing to any nation and no nation owe anything to me.
I rely only on myself and owe only what I managed to achieve.
And I give same right to every other human being to do same.
If you look at the history of the world no nation that was enslaved, murdered, tortured, and displaced get their debt paid off by anybody.
There is no fairness in history. Until oppressed get on right side of the gun they get nothing back.

African Americans didn't choose to be set apart! That was imposed upon them and to a large degree still goes on. AA's wanted to live in a colorblind society but it was the White majority that did not want it. You really don't know or understand the dynamics of race in this country. There is much I could teach you about the TRUTH of this country but you have to want to know the truth.

Natives were mistreated but did receive some recompense and land of their own! Japanese Americans that were wrongfully held in concentration camps received recompense. This country became great largely off the backs of African Slaves and all they did was kick us in the teeth!

Just so we're clear AA's are a large part of the identity and culture of America you can't separate us out of history and have the same country. There's no facet of what made America what it is that doesn't have a connection to the African slaves. That includes the Revolution and the Constitution. Everything was based off of the system of slavery and how that allowed this country to become great.

OK
So all wealth America has is build by slaves...
The rest of the people were just a bunch of cowboys drinking in saloons...
Now what? They should go back to Europe from were they unlawfully came to grab the land, kill and enslave people, and burn the crosses...
And leave everything they grab to local and displaced people to restore the historical fairness.
Obviously it is absurd.
No one has power and right to separate people in any kind of groups.
And it is not needed as they separating themselves without anyone help.
What Native and Japaneses receive is a joke comparing to all dignity that was taking away from them. Not only dignity, everything.
And they will not get it back ever. Even if the whole world will want to give it back to them.
Its gone and not returnable. Last year snow.
The history of the human kind is the history of genocide, destruction, wars, oppression, and injustice.
This how we came around. All of us.
And as we will continue to berry our had in the past and finding enemies and animosities we will never get out of it.
Time to give everyone the clean slate and leave together as one.

Like I said you really have no clue about this subject. I'm my family historian and in my research I've had to also research the family of the people who enslaved my ancestors. I have extensive records on every descendent from the man who enslaved my people. All the land and profits made going back 258 years.

In the census records they actually did detailed financial statements so I have access to just how much money they made off my ancestors hard work. I have copies of the actual record of purchase of my ancestor back in 1758! I have a nearly complete record of births and deaths from that time to the present and I can tell you it is life changing to see it all organized into a coherent record.

I'm planning to visit the area where my ancestors slaved away on plantations and visit the graves. I hope to also find where they may have buried my original ancestors back before they marked the graves of slaves. I can tell you that it's not time to just "give everyone a clean slate and live together as one". This isn't ancient history! I've got relatives still living that lived much of this horrible history.

His challenge is not a lack of understanding, it's indifference, lack of respect for others and a single minded need to rationalize anything that benefits him, however remotely into an absolute positive. It's not an uncommon combination in general.

You guys are amazing in how microscopic and self-centric is your vision of the world.
Little mind in little space.
Good luck living in your little box and slowly carry you little home on your shoulders while the world moving forward at the speed of light.
As far as researching my family - 256 members of it were burned in the chambers on Nazy camps. What compensation should I get from Germans and other Nazy alliance nations? And what is will account for for 6 million people including 2 millions children. How much wealth this slaughtered people will be able to create for human race?
And nobody want to compensate... what a pity...

Microscopic and self centric? Big words and completely irrelevant and out of context like everything else you post. Nothing I said or Nixluva said had anything to do with Nazi Germany. We are talking US history and the role of racism. Try and keep up with the conversation.

Obviously the Jewish Holocaust was horrific. I don't know much about the aftermath and what Germany did to try and apologize for what happened but I do know that this country has not really ever dealt with the issue of Slavery and the wage theft, murder, oppression etc for hundreds of years!!!

In this election we heard a lot about the plight of the White Working Class. They want a return to the good old days. What about AA's? There NEVER were any Good Old Days for AA's. As they say we're still waiting for our 40 Acres and a Mule so to speak.

My Great, Great Grandfather and his children were slaves. A month after the Civil War ended the Freedman's Beureau ordered the former slaves to sign Labor Contracts with the former Slaveholders!
They did not want to. They wanted the land they were promised. Not free land but land they could lease and eventually buy!!!

The Slaveholders convinced the government not to do this. So my Great, Great Grandfather who like most slaves was illiterate signed the work contract with the very man who had enslaved him and all of my ancestors. This was in 1865. By 1870 my Great, Great Grandfather came to own 212 Acres, a home and a Sugar Cane Mill. He employed other people. Unfortunately they lost it all in the 1920's during the Great Depression.

Nix - you need to educate yourself more about world history... at least recent.
It will give you a good perspective about you own history and help to understand what are most of the American people are about.
Most of Americans came from other countries and cultures long after slavery was abolished.
I agree that they must study the history of their new home but it should go both ways.

Forgive me for being more focused on the U.S. and the history of my people and this country! SMDH!
I'm fully aware of the history of this country and immigration into this country. What you and most of the people who came here after slavery may not realize is that you benefited from the period of Slavery but the only people who have not are the descendants of those slaves!!!

Why is it OK for you to be smug and disinterested in how this country became great and the benefits you now enjoy came at a price. A price paid by my ancestors!!! You should be the very type of person most concerned with the injustices done to Natives and AA's. Your callous indifference is not a good look for you!!!

We all are benefiting from body of work of people from all countries and ages who build human civilization, African Americans included. I give all of them equal due. I do not know how to make history fair. I do not think it is possible.
At lease it was never fair to most of the people. My believe is however that this is not a reason for hate and animosity. Especially against people who have nothing to do with what happened in the past.

African Americans greatly outnumbered Whites in many areas of the South after the war. It wasn't until massive European Immigration from the North and overseas that this changed. There were false fears and rumors spread of a massive attack by former slaves to inflict Revenge on the White population. This was a lie and NEVER happened. Some Racist Whites spread the rumors to justify violence against Blacks. In fact the AA's were mostly peaceful, if not fully trusting of the White population, but all they wanted was to be treated fairly and to have freedom to live in peace, but that's not what they got from the White population.

These are the minutes from the historic Meeting between General Sherman of the Union Army and a collection of Black leaders in Savannah. Gen. Sherman wanted to know what the African Americans wanted after they were freed from Slavery. It was this meeting that led to the Infamous 40 Acres and a Mule promise made to African Americans:

Garrison Frazier being chosen by the persons present to express their common sentiments upon the matters of inquiry, makes answers to inquiries as follows:

First: State what your understanding is in regard to the acts of Congress and President Lincoln's [Emancipation] proclamation, touching the condition of the colored people in the Rebel States.

Answer–So far as I understand President Lincoln's proclamation to the Rebellious States, it is, that if they would lay down their arms and submit to the laws of the United States before the first of January, 1863, all should be well; but if they did not, then all the slaves in the Rebel States should be free henceforth and forever. That is what I understood.

Second–State what you understand by Slavery and the freedom that was to be given by the President's proclamation.

Answer–Slavery is, receiving by irresistible power the work of another man, and not by his consent. The freedom, as I understand it, promised by the proclamation, is taking us from under the yoke of bondage, and placing us where we could reap the fruit of our own labor, take care of ourselves and assist the Government in maintaining our freedom.

Third: State in what manner you think you can take care of yourselves, and how can you best assist the Government in maintaining your freedom.

Answer: The way we can best take care of ourselves is to have land, and turn it and till it by our own labor–that is, by the labor of the women and children and old men; and we can soon maintain ourselves and have something to spare. And to assist the Government, the young men should enlist in the service of the Government, and serve in such manner as they may be wanted. (The Rebels told us that they piled them up and made batteries of them, and sold them to Cuba; but we don't believe that.) We want to be placed on land until we are able to buy it and make it our own.

Fourth: State in what manner you would rather live–whether scattered among the whites or in colonies by yourselves.

Answer: I would prefer to live by ourselves, for there is a prejudice against us in the South that will take years to get over; but I do not know that I can answer for my brethren. [Mr. Lynch says he thinks they should not be separated, but live together. All the other persons present, being questioned one by one, answer that they agree with Brother Frazier.]1

Fifth: Do you think that there is intelligence enough among the slaves of the South to maintain themselves under the Government of the United States and the equal protection of its laws, and maintain good and peaceable relations among yourselves and with your neighbors?

Answer–I think there is sufficient intelligence among us to do so.

Sixth–State what is the feeling of the black population of the South toward the Government of the United States; what is the understanding in respect to the present war–its causes and object, and their disposition to aid either side. State fully your views.

Answer–I think you will find there are thousands that are willing to make any sacrifice to assist the Government of the United States, while there are also many that are not willing to take up arms. I do not suppose there are a dozen men that are opposed to the Government. I understand, as to the war, that the South is the aggressor. President Lincoln was elected President by a majority of the United States, which guaranteed him the right of holding the office and exercising that right over the whole United States. The South, without knowing what he would do, rebelled. The war was commenced by the Rebels before he came into office. The object of the war was not at first to give the slaves their freedom, but the sole object of the war was at first to bring the rebellious States back into the Union and their loyalty to the laws of the United States. Afterward, knowing the value set on the slaves by the Rebels, the President thought that his proclamation would stimulate them to lay down their arms, reduce them to obedience, and help to bring back the Rebel States; and their not doing so has now made the freedom of the slaves a part of the war. It is my opinion that there is not a man in this city that could be started to help the Rebels one inch, for that would be suicide. There were two black men left with the Rebels because they had taken an active part for the Rebels, and thought something might befall them if they stayed behind; but there is not another man. If the prayers that have gone up for the Union army could be read out, you would not get through them these two weeks.

Seventh: State whether the sentiments you now express are those only of the colored people in the city; or do they extend to the colored population through the country? and what are your means of knowing the sentiments of those living in the country?

Answer: I think the sentiments are the same among the colored people of the State. My opinion is formed by personal communication in the course of my ministry, and also from the thousands that followed the Union army, leaving their homes and undergoing suffering. I did not think there would be so many; the number surpassed my expectation.

Of the many things that resulted in Donald Trump’s election, from Hillary Clinton’s own errors to James Comey’s extraordinary insinuations against her in the contest’s final stages, Russian hacking played a meaningful-enough role to tilt a razor-tight contest. Russia successfully riled up Bernie Sanders diehards against the Democratic Party by leaking minor intrigue that fueled Sanders supporters’ suspicions, aggravating a Clinton liability with young voters that never healed. Russia also dribbled out enough emails in the succeeding months to keep stories using the word “emails” in the lead of Hillary Clinton news, adding more smoke to the haze of scandal that permeated coverage of her campaign.

We now know with near-certainty that Russia did this with the goal of electing Trump president. During the campaign, this reality was not quite certain enough to be reported as fact. Trump, of course, insisted there was no evidence Russia even had a hand in the attacks, let alone with the goal of helping him. (It “could be somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds.”) Elements of the left decried suspicions of Russia’s role as “neo-McCarthyism.” The Nation editorialized, “ liberal-media elites have joined with the Clinton campaign in promoting the narrative of a devious Russian cyber-attack.” Others on the left insisted that the substance of the stolen emails command far more importance than their provenance, which in any case was disputed and unknowable. On October 31, the New York Times reported that the attack was probably “aimed at disrupting the presidential election rather than electing Mr. Trump.”

Friday, the Washington Post reported that the CIA had concluded well before November that Russia specifically sought to elect Trump. The CIA’s analysis is obviously not infallible, but it fits within a wide array of other evidence. Russia had a clear motive: chilly relations with the Democratic administration that had orchestrated sanctions against it, close ties with Donald Trump and several of his advisers, and a series of pro-Russian positions from Trump on such issues as Crimea, NATO, and Vladimir Putin’s human-rights abuses. Russia also hacked the Republican National Committee but declined to release any of the contents. The disruption was intentionally one-sided. The CIA’s conclusion merely lends incrementally more confidence to a deduction that was already fairly obvious.

What is more interesting in the Post story is the response of various officials to the revelations. The Obama administration declined to publicize, wary of being seen as intervening on Clinton’s behalf. Instead, it devised a fallback plan. Concerned that Russia might attempt to hack into electronic-voting machines, it gathered a bipartisan group of lawmakers to hear the CIA’s report, in the hopes that they would present a united front warning Russia not to disrupt the election. According to the Post, Republican Majority Leader Mitch McConnell “raised doubts about the underlying intelligence and made clear to the administration that he would consider any effort by the White House to challenge the Russians publicly an act of partisan politics.” Other Republicans refused to join the effort for reasons that can only be understood as a desire to protect the Republican ticket from any insinuation, however well-founded, that Russia was helping it.

Even the most cynical observer of McConnell — a cynical man to his bones — would have been shocked at his raw partisanship. Presented with an attack on the sanctity of his own country’s democracy by a hostile foreign power, his overriding concern was party over country. Obama’s fear of seeming partisan held him back from making a unilateral statement without partisan cover. No such fear restrained McConnell. This imbalance in will to power extended to the security agencies. The CIA could have leaked its conclusion before November, but held off. The FBI should have held off on leaking its October surprise, but plunged ahead.

Perhaps the most amazing revelation in the Post’s report is, “Some of the Republicans in the briefing also seemed opposed to the idea of going public with such explosive allegations in the final stages of an election.” Almost immediately afterward, Republicans in Congress trumpeted explosive (but ultimately empty) allegations from a different agency. Of the many causes of the election outcome, one was simply that Trump’s supporters in government were willing to put the system at risk in order to win, and Clinton’s supporters were not.

That same bottomless will to power that enabled Trump to win can be seen in the extraordinary statement that his official transition team published in the wake of the Post report. The three sentences distill Trumpism to its essence: “These are the same people that said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. The election ended a long time ago in one of the biggest Electoral College victories in history. It’s now time to move on and ‘Make America Great Again.’”

Consider the claims in order, beginning with Trump’s dismissal of the CIA. It is true that the CIA, like intelligence agencies in several other allied countries, fell for Saddam Hussein’s bluff that he still had weapons of mass destruction. But the overheated claims of imminent danger, and the ticking bomb of a nuclear program, came not from the CIA’s own analysts but from political pressure exerted by Dick Cheney and the Bush administration, which insisted the CIA’s hesitant conclusions should be discounted because the agency was allegedly filled with doves blind to the real danger only Cheney’s true believers could detect. Trump’s statement is a replication of that same debacle, substituting his own politicized judgments for the analysis of career staff. Cheneyism helped discredit the agency, and Trump is exploiting that discredit in order to impose more Cheneyism.

Next is Trump’s claim to have won “one of the biggest Electoral College victories in history.” This is easily falsifiable — Trump won 56.88% of the electoral votes, a percentage that places him in the bottom quarter of electoral history. In this sentence, Trump also states that the election “ended a long time ago” — a curious description of an event that took place four and a half weeks ago.

Having consigned the election to the distant past, the statement concludes with a rousing iteration of Trump’s campaign slogan. The progression of these sentiments is telling. It begins by dismissing the veracity of the CIA’s conclusions, and then immediately proceeds to imply that the truth of the matter is irrelevant, since Trump won. The CIA can’t be trusted, it all happened so long ago, but it doesn’t matter because Trump won.

And that is the nub of it. Very little will come of this, except perhaps that future presidential campaigns may have to account for the political risk of offending the Kremlin when devising their Russia stance (lest they be targeted by hackers). When all the smoke has cleared away and the outrage dissipated, the bottom line will be that Russia set out to influence the U.S. election, Republicans in Congress decided not to speak out against them, and both their calculations were rewarded.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/12/trump-mcconnell-putin-and-the-triumph-of-the-will-to-power.html

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:- we have not a "race" problem but African American nation problem. We just overlooked that new nation of people get created with specific culture which has no place yet to safe-realize and even cannot yet identifie itself. Racism is also there but this is not the major issue.

I'm sorry but you're going to have to more clearly explain this statement. I can't understand what you're trying to say here. What do you mean by "African American nation problem"? What do you mean by "new nation of people created with specific culture which has no place"?

I'm really not sure what you are saying and want you to elaborate on these points.

Every nation need place to realize it suverenity. It may be independent country or cultural enclave inside multi-national country.
It can be territorial or just cultural identity.
I believe that Afro-Americans are a new nation in the process of self-realization.
There are clearly many people of African race who are not African Americans while leaving in USA. They are representing other nations - like Iruba, Nigerians, etc.
All of then can be a subject of racism. But for African Americans it is obviously more to it.
American nation is a mix of emigrants from all over the world who came here at their own will and many with no intentions to maintain their national identity but rather became American nationals politically and culturally. It is not true however for many people who are there not by their will or were there before colonization like Native Americans and Northers People. They want to maintain their national identity separate from US Americans. And they have all rights to do so.
Same true for African Americans. But I think they just start to realize this national identity.
I think the whole American society will need to realize and embrace it. But this process is complicated and just starting.
It is definitely bigger that this Trump-no-Trump distractions.

WOW! You have a lot of concepts in your post. To simplify things from my perspective I won't try to address all of your points. Let me just say this, African Americans have ALWAYS been part of the fabric of this country! Even when we weren't considered to be so.

AA's have fought in every war this country ever fought. After gaining freedom AA's could've taken violent revenge on a massive scale but in fact that was relatively rare! All AA's ever wanted was to be treated fairly and with respect and to pursue the American Dream!

There was NEVER any justification for violence and oppression inflicted upon AA's. The restraint under the circumstances is a badge of honor and a rebuke to this nation that they were treated so poorly for so long. For what reason were AA's denied their rights or mistreated??? There is no reason other than pure evil and greed.

To this very day this country has never fully lived up to the debt they owe AA's. There would be no America as we know it without AA's. Our story is inextricably intertwined with the history of this country. We are America just as much if not more than most since we gave all for this country and received so little of the spoils of success we helped create. If you don't know what I'm talking about then go look up the many resources on how much AA's contributed to the fortunes of this country.

This is all fair and true.
My question is how you identify yourself and AA people inside America - as a unique nation which need to be treated as such or you want to dissolve into American nation which has no concept or race, nationality, and cultural identity other that American? You cannot have it both ways - it is the choice to be made.
As far as someone owe something to somebody I do not believe in this.
I owe nothing to any nation and no nation owe anything to me.
I rely only on myself and owe only what I managed to achieve.
And I give same right to every other human being to do same.
If you look at the history of the world no nation that was enslaved, murdered, tortured, and displaced get their debt paid off by anybody.
There is no fairness in history. Until oppressed get on right side of the gun they get nothing back.

African Americans didn't choose to be set apart! That was imposed upon them and to a large degree still goes on. AA's wanted to live in a colorblind society but it was the White majority that did not want it. You really don't know or understand the dynamics of race in this country. There is much I could teach you about the TRUTH of this country but you have to want to know the truth.

Natives were mistreated but did receive some recompense and land of their own! Japanese Americans that were wrongfully held in concentration camps received recompense. This country became great largely off the backs of African Slaves and all they did was kick us in the teeth!

Just so we're clear AA's are a large part of the identity and culture of America you can't separate us out of history and have the same country. There's no facet of what made America what it is that doesn't have a connection to the African slaves. That includes the Revolution and the Constitution. Everything was based off of the system of slavery and how that allowed this country to become great.

OK
So all wealth America has is build by slaves...
The rest of the people were just a bunch of cowboys drinking in saloons...
Now what? They should go back to Europe from were they unlawfully came to grab the land, kill and enslave people, and burn the crosses...
And leave everything they grab to local and displaced people to restore the historical fairness.
Obviously it is absurd.
No one has power and right to separate people in any kind of groups.
And it is not needed as they separating themselves without anyone help.
What Native and Japaneses receive is a joke comparing to all dignity that was taking away from them. Not only dignity, everything.
And they will not get it back ever. Even if the whole world will want to give it back to them.
Its gone and not returnable. Last year snow.
The history of the human kind is the history of genocide, destruction, wars, oppression, and injustice.
This how we came around. All of us.
And as we will continue to berry our had in the past and finding enemies and animosities we will never get out of it.
Time to give everyone the clean slate and leave together as one.

Like I said you really have no clue about this subject. I'm my family historian and in my research I've had to also research the family of the people who enslaved my ancestors. I have extensive records on every descendent from the man who enslaved my people. All the land and profits made going back 258 years.

In the census records they actually did detailed financial statements so I have access to just how much money they made off my ancestors hard work. I have copies of the actual record of purchase of my ancestor back in 1758! I have a nearly complete record of births and deaths from that time to the present and I can tell you it is life changing to see it all organized into a coherent record.

I'm planning to visit the area where my ancestors slaved away on plantations and visit the graves. I hope to also find where they may have buried my original ancestors back before they marked the graves of slaves. I can tell you that it's not time to just "give everyone a clean slate and live together as one". This isn't ancient history! I've got relatives still living that lived much of this horrible history.

His challenge is not a lack of understanding, it's indifference, lack of respect for others and a single minded need to rationalize anything that benefits him, however remotely into an absolute positive. It's not an uncommon combination in general.

You guys are amazing in how microscopic and self-centric is your vision of the world.
Little mind in little space.
Good luck living in your little box and slowly carry you little home on your shoulders while the world moving forward at the speed of light.
As far as researching my family - 256 members of it were burned in the chambers on Nazy camps. What compensation should I get from Germans and other Nazy alliance nations? And what is will account for for 6 million people including 2 millions children. How much wealth this slaughtered people will be able to create for human race?
And nobody want to compensate... what a pity...

Microscopic and self centric? Big words and completely irrelevant and out of context like everything else you post. Nothing I said or Nixluva said had anything to do with Nazi Germany. We are talking US history and the role of racism. Try and keep up with the conversation.

Obviously the Jewish Holocaust was horrific. I don't know much about the aftermath and what Germany did to try and apologize for what happened but I do know that this country has not really ever dealt with the issue of Slavery and the wage theft, murder, oppression etc for hundreds of years!!!

In this election we heard a lot about the plight of the White Working Class. They want a return to the good old days. What about AA's? There NEVER were any Good Old Days for AA's. As they say we're still waiting for our 40 Acres and a Mule so to speak.

My Great, Great Grandfather and his children were slaves. A month after the Civil War ended the Freedman's Beureau ordered the former slaves to sign Labor Contracts with the former Slaveholders!
They did not want to. They wanted the land they were promised. Not free land but land they could lease and eventually buy!!!

The Slaveholders convinced the government not to do this. So my Great, Great Grandfather who like most slaves was illiterate signed the work contract with the very man who had enslaved him and all of my ancestors. This was in 1865. By 1870 my Great, Great Grandfather came to own 212 Acres, a home and a Sugar Cane Mill. He employed other people. Unfortunately they lost it all in the 1920's during the Great Depression.

Nix - you need to educate yourself more about world history... at least recent.
It will give you a good perspective about you own history and help to understand what are most of the American people are about.
Most of Americans came from other countries and cultures long after slavery was abolished.
I agree that they must study the history of their new home but it should go both ways.

Forgive me for being more focused on the U.S. and the history of my people and this country! SMDH!
I'm fully aware of the history of this country and immigration into this country. What you and most of the people who came here after slavery may not realize is that you benefited from the period of Slavery but the only people who have not are the descendants of those slaves!!!

Why is it OK for you to be smug and disinterested in how this country became great and the benefits you now enjoy came at a price. A price paid by my ancestors!!! You should be the very type of person most concerned with the injustices done to Natives and AA's. Your callous indifference is not a good look for you!!!

We all are benefiting from body of work of people from all countries and ages who build human civilization, African Americans included. I give all of them equal due. I do not know how to make history fair. I do not think it is possible.
At lease it was never fair to most of the people. My believe is however that this is not a reason for hate and animosity. Especially against people who have nothing to do with what happened in the past.

OK first off, African Americans have been the most forgiving and LEAST hate driven people in this country DESPITE the hundreds of years of abuse and denial of rights. You are making a HUGE mistake in how you are assessing the situation here. Perhaps if you spent just a little time actually learning about this subject then you'd know what the heck you were talking about.

African Americans greatly outnumbered Whites in many areas of the South after the war. It wasn't until massive European Immigration from the North and overseas that this changed. There were false fears and rumors spread of a massive attack by former slaves to inflict Revenge on the White population. This was a lie and NEVER happened. Some Racist Whites spread the rumors to justify violence against Blacks. In fact the AA's were mostly peaceful, if not fully trusting of the White population, but all they wanted was to be treated fairly and to have freedom to live in peace, but that's not what they got from the White population.

These are the minutes from the historic Meeting between General Sherman of the Union Army and a collection of Black leaders in Savannah. Gen. Sherman wanted to know what the African Americans wanted after they were freed from Slavery. It was this meeting that led to the Infamous 40 Acres and a Mule promise made to African Americans:

Garrison Frazier being chosen by the persons present to express their common sentiments upon the matters of inquiry, makes answers to inquiries as follows:

First: State what your understanding is in regard to the acts of Congress and President Lincoln's [Emancipation] proclamation, touching the condition of the colored people in the Rebel States.

Answer–So far as I understand President Lincoln's proclamation to the Rebellious States, it is, that if they would lay down their arms and submit to the laws of the United States before the first of January, 1863, all should be well; but if they did not, then all the slaves in the Rebel States should be free henceforth and forever. That is what I understood.

Second–State what you understand by Slavery and the freedom that was to be given by the President's proclamation.

Answer–Slavery is, receiving by irresistible power the work of another man, and not by his consent. The freedom, as I understand it, promised by the proclamation, is taking us from under the yoke of bondage, and placing us where we could reap the fruit of our own labor, take care of ourselves and assist the Government in maintaining our freedom.

Third: State in what manner you think you can take care of yourselves, and how can you best assist the Government in maintaining your freedom.

Answer: The way we can best take care of ourselves is to have land, and turn it and till it by our own labor–that is, by the labor of the women and children and old men; and we can soon maintain ourselves and have something to spare. And to assist the Government, the young men should enlist in the service of the Government, and serve in such manner as they may be wanted. (The Rebels told us that they piled them up and made batteries of them, and sold them to Cuba; but we don't believe that.) We want to be placed on land until we are able to buy it and make it our own.

Fourth: State in what manner you would rather live–whether scattered among the whites or in colonies by yourselves.

Answer: I would prefer to live by ourselves, for there is a prejudice against us in the South that will take years to get over; but I do not know that I can answer for my brethren. [Mr. Lynch says he thinks they should not be separated, but live together. All the other persons present, being questioned one by one, answer that they agree with Brother Frazier.]1

Fifth: Do you think that there is intelligence enough among the slaves of the South to maintain themselves under the Government of the United States and the equal protection of its laws, and maintain good and peaceable relations among yourselves and with your neighbors?

Answer–I think there is sufficient intelligence among us to do so.

Sixth–State what is the feeling of the black population of the South toward the Government of the United States; what is the understanding in respect to the present war–its causes and object, and their disposition to aid either side. State fully your views.

Answer–I think you will find there are thousands that are willing to make any sacrifice to assist the Government of the United States, while there are also many that are not willing to take up arms. I do not suppose there are a dozen men that are opposed to the Government. I understand, as to the war, that the South is the aggressor. President Lincoln was elected President by a majority of the United States, which guaranteed him the right of holding the office and exercising that right over the whole United States. The South, without knowing what he would do, rebelled. The war was commenced by the Rebels before he came into office. The object of the war was not at first to give the slaves their freedom, but the sole object of the war was at first to bring the rebellious States back into the Union and their loyalty to the laws of the United States. Afterward, knowing the value set on the slaves by the Rebels, the President thought that his proclamation would stimulate them to lay down their arms, reduce them to obedience, and help to bring back the Rebel States; and their not doing so has now made the freedom of the slaves a part of the war. It is my opinion that there is not a man in this city that could be started to help the Rebels one inch, for that would be suicide. There were two black men left with the Rebels because they had taken an active part for the Rebels, and thought something might befall them if they stayed behind; but there is not another man. If the prayers that have gone up for the Union army could be read out, you would not get through them these two weeks.

Seventh: State whether the sentiments you now express are those only of the colored people in the city; or do they extend to the colored population through the country? and what are your means of knowing the sentiments of those living in the country?

Answer: I think the sentiments are the same among the colored people of the State. My opinion is formed by personal communication in the course of my ministry, and also from the thousands that followed the Union army, leaving their homes and undergoing suffering. I did not think there would be so many; the number surpassed my expectation.

http://www.freedmen.umd.edu/savmtg.htm

I want to expand at my statement you highlighted and argue using the facts of distant past.
I believe that no person leaving now is responsible for any deeds committed by people of his race, nation, or tribe in the past or present. Everyone is responsible only for what he/she has done or not done in his life personally. There is no "group responsibility". The past id dead, the future is just a dream. There is only one thing that matters and is inevitable - current moment.
The rest is just a destruction.

The past "IS" Dead....but like the Ghost of Christmas past...inherent Bias remain....

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

arkrud wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:

nixluva wrote:

arkrud wrote:- we have not a "race" problem but African American nation problem. We just overlooked that new nation of people get created with specific culture which has no place yet to safe-realize and even cannot yet identifie itself. Racism is also there but this is not the major issue.

I'm sorry but you're going to have to more clearly explain this statement. I can't understand what you're trying to say here. What do you mean by "African American nation problem"? What do you mean by "new nation of people created with specific culture which has no place"?

I'm really not sure what you are saying and want you to elaborate on these points.

Every nation need place to realize it suverenity. It may be independent country or cultural enclave inside multi-national country.
It can be territorial or just cultural identity.
I believe that Afro-Americans are a new nation in the process of self-realization.
There are clearly many people of African race who are not African Americans while leaving in USA. They are representing other nations - like Iruba, Nigerians, etc.
All of then can be a subject of racism. But for African Americans it is obviously more to it.
American nation is a mix of emigrants from all over the world who came here at their own will and many with no intentions to maintain their national identity but rather became American nationals politically and culturally. It is not true however for many people who are there not by their will or were there before colonization like Native Americans and Northers People. They want to maintain their national identity separate from US Americans. And they have all rights to do so.
Same true for African Americans. But I think they just start to realize this national identity.
I think the whole American society will need to realize and embrace it. But this process is complicated and just starting.
It is definitely bigger that this Trump-no-Trump distractions.

WOW! You have a lot of concepts in your post. To simplify things from my perspective I won't try to address all of your points. Let me just say this, African Americans have ALWAYS been part of the fabric of this country! Even when we weren't considered to be so.

AA's have fought in every war this country ever fought. After gaining freedom AA's could've taken violent revenge on a massive scale but in fact that was relatively rare! All AA's ever wanted was to be treated fairly and with respect and to pursue the American Dream!

There was NEVER any justification for violence and oppression inflicted upon AA's. The restraint under the circumstances is a badge of honor and a rebuke to this nation that they were treated so poorly for so long. For what reason were AA's denied their rights or mistreated??? There is no reason other than pure evil and greed.

To this very day this country has never fully lived up to the debt they owe AA's. There would be no America as we know it without AA's. Our story is inextricably intertwined with the history of this country. We are America just as much if not more than most since we gave all for this country and received so little of the spoils of success we helped create. If you don't know what I'm talking about then go look up the many resources on how much AA's contributed to the fortunes of this country.

This is all fair and true.
My question is how you identify yourself and AA people inside America - as a unique nation which need to be treated as such or you want to dissolve into American nation which has no concept or race, nationality, and cultural identity other that American? You cannot have it both ways - it is the choice to be made.
As far as someone owe something to somebody I do not believe in this.
I owe nothing to any nation and no nation owe anything to me.
I rely only on myself and owe only what I managed to achieve.
And I give same right to every other human being to do same.
If you look at the history of the world no nation that was enslaved, murdered, tortured, and displaced get their debt paid off by anybody.
There is no fairness in history. Until oppressed get on right side of the gun they get nothing back.

African Americans didn't choose to be set apart! That was imposed upon them and to a large degree still goes on. AA's wanted to live in a colorblind society but it was the White majority that did not want it. You really don't know or understand the dynamics of race in this country. There is much I could teach you about the TRUTH of this country but you have to want to know the truth.

Natives were mistreated but did receive some recompense and land of their own! Japanese Americans that were wrongfully held in concentration camps received recompense. This country became great largely off the backs of African Slaves and all they did was kick us in the teeth!

Just so we're clear AA's are a large part of the identity and culture of America you can't separate us out of history and have the same country. There's no facet of what made America what it is that doesn't have a connection to the African slaves. That includes the Revolution and the Constitution. Everything was based off of the system of slavery and how that allowed this country to become great.

OK
So all wealth America has is build by slaves...
The rest of the people were just a bunch of cowboys drinking in saloons...
Now what? They should go back to Europe from were they unlawfully came to grab the land, kill and enslave people, and burn the crosses...
And leave everything they grab to local and displaced people to restore the historical fairness.
Obviously it is absurd.
No one has power and right to separate people in any kind of groups.
And it is not needed as they separating themselves without anyone help.
What Native and Japaneses receive is a joke comparing to all dignity that was taking away from them. Not only dignity, everything.
And they will not get it back ever. Even if the whole world will want to give it back to them.
Its gone and not returnable. Last year snow.
The history of the human kind is the history of genocide, destruction, wars, oppression, and injustice.
This how we came around. All of us.
And as we will continue to berry our had in the past and finding enemies and animosities we will never get out of it.
Time to give everyone the clean slate and leave together as one.

Like I said you really have no clue about this subject. I'm my family historian and in my research I've had to also research the family of the people who enslaved my ancestors. I have extensive records on every descendent from the man who enslaved my people. All the land and profits made going back 258 years.

In the census records they actually did detailed financial statements so I have access to just how much money they made off my ancestors hard work. I have copies of the actual record of purchase of my ancestor back in 1758! I have a nearly complete record of births and deaths from that time to the present and I can tell you it is life changing to see it all organized into a coherent record.

I'm planning to visit the area where my ancestors slaved away on plantations and visit the graves. I hope to also find where they may have buried my original ancestors back before they marked the graves of slaves. I can tell you that it's not time to just "give everyone a clean slate and live together as one". This isn't ancient history! I've got relatives still living that lived much of this horrible history.

His challenge is not a lack of understanding, it's indifference, lack of respect for others and a single minded need to rationalize anything that benefits him, however remotely into an absolute positive. It's not an uncommon combination in general.

You guys are amazing in how microscopic and self-centric is your vision of the world.
Little mind in little space.
Good luck living in your little box and slowly carry you little home on your shoulders while the world moving forward at the speed of light.
As far as researching my family - 256 members of it were burned in the chambers on Nazy camps. What compensation should I get from Germans and other Nazy alliance nations? And what is will account for for 6 million people including 2 millions children. How much wealth this slaughtered people will be able to create for human race?
And nobody want to compensate... what a pity...

Microscopic and self centric? Big words and completely irrelevant and out of context like everything else you post. Nothing I said or Nixluva said had anything to do with Nazi Germany. We are talking US history and the role of racism. Try and keep up with the conversation.

Obviously the Jewish Holocaust was horrific. I don't know much about the aftermath and what Germany did to try and apologize for what happened but I do know that this country has not really ever dealt with the issue of Slavery and the wage theft, murder, oppression etc for hundreds of years!!!

In this election we heard a lot about the plight of the White Working Class. They want a return to the good old days. What about AA's? There NEVER were any Good Old Days for AA's. As they say we're still waiting for our 40 Acres and a Mule so to speak.

My Great, Great Grandfather and his children were slaves. A month after the Civil War ended the Freedman's Beureau ordered the former slaves to sign Labor Contracts with the former Slaveholders!
They did not want to. They wanted the land they were promised. Not free land but land they could lease and eventually buy!!!

The Slaveholders convinced the government not to do this. So my Great, Great Grandfather who like most slaves was illiterate signed the work contract with the very man who had enslaved him and all of my ancestors. This was in 1865. By 1870 my Great, Great Grandfather came to own 212 Acres, a home and a Sugar Cane Mill. He employed other people. Unfortunately they lost it all in the 1920's during the Great Depression.

Nix - you need to educate yourself more about world history... at least recent.
It will give you a good perspective about you own history and help to understand what are most of the American people are about.
Most of Americans came from other countries and cultures long after slavery was abolished.
I agree that they must study the history of their new home but it should go both ways.

Forgive me for being more focused on the U.S. and the history of my people and this country! SMDH!
I'm fully aware of the history of this country and immigration into this country. What you and most of the people who came here after slavery may not realize is that you benefited from the period of Slavery but the only people who have not are the descendants of those slaves!!!

Why is it OK for you to be smug and disinterested in how this country became great and the benefits you now enjoy came at a price. A price paid by my ancestors!!! You should be the very type of person most concerned with the injustices done to Natives and AA's. Your callous indifference is not a good look for you!!!

We all are benefiting from body of work of people from all countries and ages who build human civilization, African Americans included. I give all of them equal due. I do not know how to make history fair. I do not think it is possible.
At lease it was never fair to most of the people. My believe is however that this is not a reason for hate and animosity. Especially against people who have nothing to do with what happened in the past.

OK first off, African Americans have been the most forgiving and LEAST hate driven people in this country DESPITE the hundreds of years of abuse and denial of rights. You are making a HUGE mistake in how you are assessing the situation here. Perhaps if you spent just a little time actually learning about this subject then you'd know what the heck you were talking about.

African Americans greatly outnumbered Whites in many areas of the South after the war. It wasn't until massive European Immigration from the North and overseas that this changed. There were false fears and rumors spread of a massive attack by former slaves to inflict Revenge on the White population. This was a lie and NEVER happened. Some Racist Whites spread the rumors to justify violence against Blacks. In fact the AA's were mostly peaceful, if not fully trusting of the White population, but all they wanted was to be treated fairly and to have freedom to live in peace, but that's not what they got from the White population.

These are the minutes from the historic Meeting between General Sherman of the Union Army and a collection of Black leaders in Savannah. Gen. Sherman wanted to know what the African Americans wanted after they were freed from Slavery. It was this meeting that led to the Infamous 40 Acres and a Mule promise made to African Americans:

Garrison Frazier being chosen by the persons present to express their common sentiments upon the matters of inquiry, makes answers to inquiries as follows:

First: State what your understanding is in regard to the acts of Congress and President Lincoln's [Emancipation] proclamation, touching the condition of the colored people in the Rebel States.

Answer–So far as I understand President Lincoln's proclamation to the Rebellious States, it is, that if they would lay down their arms and submit to the laws of the United States before the first of January, 1863, all should be well; but if they did not, then all the slaves in the Rebel States should be free henceforth and forever. That is what I understood.

Second–State what you understand by Slavery and the freedom that was to be given by the President's proclamation.

Answer–Slavery is, receiving by irresistible power the work of another man, and not by his consent. The freedom, as I understand it, promised by the proclamation, is taking us from under the yoke of bondage, and placing us where we could reap the fruit of our own labor, take care of ourselves and assist the Government in maintaining our freedom.

Third: State in what manner you think you can take care of yourselves, and how can you best assist the Government in maintaining your freedom.

Answer: The way we can best take care of ourselves is to have land, and turn it and till it by our own labor–that is, by the labor of the women and children and old men; and we can soon maintain ourselves and have something to spare. And to assist the Government, the young men should enlist in the service of the Government, and serve in such manner as they may be wanted. (The Rebels told us that they piled them up and made batteries of them, and sold them to Cuba; but we don't believe that.) We want to be placed on land until we are able to buy it and make it our own.

Fourth: State in what manner you would rather live–whether scattered among the whites or in colonies by yourselves.

Answer: I would prefer to live by ourselves, for there is a prejudice against us in the South that will take years to get over; but I do not know that I can answer for my brethren. [Mr. Lynch says he thinks they should not be separated, but live together. All the other persons present, being questioned one by one, answer that they agree with Brother Frazier.]1

Fifth: Do you think that there is intelligence enough among the slaves of the South to maintain themselves under the Government of the United States and the equal protection of its laws, and maintain good and peaceable relations among yourselves and with your neighbors?

Answer–I think there is sufficient intelligence among us to do so.

Sixth–State what is the feeling of the black population of the South toward the Government of the United States; what is the understanding in respect to the present war–its causes and object, and their disposition to aid either side. State fully your views.

Answer–I think you will find there are thousands that are willing to make any sacrifice to assist the Government of the United States, while there are also many that are not willing to take up arms. I do not suppose there are a dozen men that are opposed to the Government. I understand, as to the war, that the South is the aggressor. President Lincoln was elected President by a majority of the United States, which guaranteed him the right of holding the office and exercising that right over the whole United States. The South, without knowing what he would do, rebelled. The war was commenced by the Rebels before he came into office. The object of the war was not at first to give the slaves their freedom, but the sole object of the war was at first to bring the rebellious States back into the Union and their loyalty to the laws of the United States. Afterward, knowing the value set on the slaves by the Rebels, the President thought that his proclamation would stimulate them to lay down their arms, reduce them to obedience, and help to bring back the Rebel States; and their not doing so has now made the freedom of the slaves a part of the war. It is my opinion that there is not a man in this city that could be started to help the Rebels one inch, for that would be suicide. There were two black men left with the Rebels because they had taken an active part for the Rebels, and thought something might befall them if they stayed behind; but there is not another man. If the prayers that have gone up for the Union army could be read out, you would not get through them these two weeks.

Seventh: State whether the sentiments you now express are those only of the colored people in the city; or do they extend to the colored population through the country? and what are your means of knowing the sentiments of those living in the country?

Answer: I think the sentiments are the same among the colored people of the State. My opinion is formed by personal communication in the course of my ministry, and also from the thousands that followed the Union army, leaving their homes and undergoing suffering. I did not think there would be so many; the number surpassed my expectation.

http://www.freedmen.umd.edu/savmtg.htm

I want to expand at my statement you highlighted and argue using the facts of distant past.
I believe that no person leaving now is responsible for any deeds committed by people of his race, nation, or tribe in the past or present. Everyone is responsible only for what he/she has done or not done in his life personally. There is no "group responsibility". The past id dead, the future is just a dream. There is only one thing that matters and is inevitable - current moment.
The rest is just a destruction.

I have done my best to be a good father to my children and i'm proud of how I raised them. They are all happy, healthy and productive members of society. I'm well aware of the need to live in the present. However, my view on history is that it does matter!!! If you don't know your history and the mistakes of the past you can't avoid repeating them.

I just wanted to make it clear that despite your cynical view on things, African Americans have tried to take charge of their lives and improve their lot in life in this country and for hundreds of years those efforts have been interfered with and it was impossible to fully overcome an ENTIRE SYSTEM built to hold them down!!!

I have the 258 year history of my family thru my father's line. I have my 90 and 94 year old Grandmothers and 70 year old father and mother here to testify to much of the injustice of this country towards AA's. My 51 years of life are added to that litany. My MANY ancestors who fought for this country even tho they were mistreated by this country. Starting with my Great, Great Grandfather Abraham Gooden, who was a slave but found his way to the Union Army and fought as a Private in the 24th Regiment U.S. Colored Troops. My Grandfather who got a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star for his service in Italy and Germany and his brothers who fought in WWI and WWII. My Dad who was in Vietnam. I think their lives and struggles deserve to be spoken for, remembered and honored. That things are still unequal bothers me greatly. I'm sorry for you that you can't empathize and have taken a very cynical view despite being a descendent of people who were also greatly wronged not so long ago.

holfresh wrote:He says they finally have a seat at the table...

Thank You for posting this. It just underscores why I post things like I did in the posts above this. There are those who want us to "Move On" and to think "that stuff is all in the past", but this underscores why I don't forget and keep telling the real history and connections to the present.

djsunyc wrote:PBS should not be giving these people a forum.

I actually think it's a good idea because there are those that would say these groups aren't really an issue but it's better to expose them for what they really are rather than allow them to go along unchallenged and able to achieve some level of legitimacy. That's what they want and why they latched onto Trump. They want some kind of validation for their beliefs and to "whitewash" their image and be normalized. We can't allow that.

nixluva wrote:

djsunyc wrote:PBS should not be giving these people a forum.

I actually think it's a good idea because there are those that would say these groups aren't really an issue but it's better to expose them for what they really are rather than allow them to go along unchallenged and able to achieve some level of legitimacy. That's what they want and why they latched onto Trump. They want some kind of validation for their beliefs and to "whitewash" their image and be normalized. We can't allow that.

the results of the election have proven that what folks say/facts do not matter. it's all about emotional connection and an exercise on who misinforms the best. being on tv, folks will listen. most will be disgusted but some folks may have emotions awakened.