RonRon wrote:

dk7th wrote:i'd add both ridnour and hinrich.

I already have Rose and Rubio, as for Ridnour/Twolves, you might have a case with JJ Barea/Shved/Rubio in there as well

As for Hinrich, I have to give more credit to the coaching staff and the team as more important factor's to Hinrich's skill
Hinrich is a solid player, but he struggled heavily outside of Chicago, with Washington and Atlanta for a couple of year's
He is a great fit for Chicago with his IQ and style of play

Chicago is the Spur's Poppavich of the East
They are just all high IQ, hard working, UNSELFISH, and all have multiple defender's with speed/athleticism to go along with their coaching schemes/discipline
Deng/Noah/Taj Gibson and then Hinrich are the crucial pieces to their defensive schemes

yes chicago has a great group of players and a great coach. hinrich's numbers have been creeping closer to point guard numbers and away from hybrid/tweener numbers over the last several seasons, in terms of his usg/ast ratio. this range is between .80:1 and 1.0:1 while a decent point guard will have a ratio closer to 0.50:1

so you're right that there is a considerable tipping this season since that ration now is in fact around 0.49:1

felton is stuck in tweener territory at 0.83:1 and doesn't help his cause by shooting a putrid TS of 46%. hinrich is not a better shooter thus far but he has been the better orchestrator as the stats illustrate.

misterearl wrote:None of it matters

Scoring efficiency, field goal percentages, plus minus

Based on his scientific model Nate Silver predicted every electoral college vote, by state, accurately

He has also predicted the four NFL playoff winners.

None of it matters until you are on the field, or on the court. Unless you can measure Raymond Felton's TQ (toughness quotient), sweat gland production (SGP), determination under duress (DUD) or his PIP Quotient (pride in performance), statistics don't mean Jack.

Has anybody seen Sheed?

It doesn't measure how each player attained those STAT's, for instance, is grabbing 20 rebounds 7 in one play of your own misses very misleading?

earthmansurfer wrote:

RonRon wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nycisgreat wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

nycisgreat wrote:

knickscity wrote:The team misses Felton, that shouldn't even be deabated.

+1, a healthy Felton will get us back on track.

+1000 I don't understand why anyone who actually watches our games disputes this, I really don't.

Neither do I; Felton is a below average starting PG but we still need him.

Lol! Below average. You either still are upset about Lin or you are just delusional. Do you have facts to backup what you are saying? Show me the numbers.

Show you the numbers? Have missed every link already. List 15 starting PGs that he is better than if you think he is better than the average starting PG.

in no order

PGs
----------

Westbrook
CP3
Deron
Parker
Curry
Holiday
Rhondo
Nash
Vazquez
Irving
Jennings
Lilliard
Dragic
Conley
Lawson
==================
15
==================
Kemba Walker

Injured, without all are much better, but all will be starting once they get back healthy
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Wall played yesterday but wasn't starting
Rose
Rubio
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nelson
Lin
Toronto's PG's in Lowry/Calderon

Felton is somewhere here...

Darren Collison
Mo Williams
George Hill

Not to mention some teams have 2 PG's that are better

This doesn't make Felton any less important to our roster because he is VERY IMPORTANT, but he is just not that good
If he can cut out some of the poor shot selection he would be a lot better and he would move up in rankings, but at this point of his career, he is what he is, he is more or less peaked out already

I don't think the number's are necessary, there really isn't a debate, Felton is mediocre AT BEST and has peaked out in terms of development, not much more before he goes downhill as age catches up with him, as he has trouble staying in front of PG's already

OUCH! But I agree!

Really, I look at teams with good PG's and just think "Man, how much better we'd be with a good PG on our team." So many have been there for the taking the last few years. I hope we draft a young stud PG this year that other teams passed on. It's about time a Mark Jackson falls into our laps again. (Well, I think that was Lin, but hit us again please.)

Irregardless of where Felton's place is on that list..Before any of his hand injuries he was playing like one of the better PG's in this league...His play was a notch below that of an all star...This team, performed like on of the better teams in the league with Felton on the court...Everyone here including myself would love to have Chris Paul or Rondo or Parker or Westbrook but it isn't realistic...It's pure fantasy...Why not throw in Bron and Durant while we are at it...Felton's fits well with this team...I would like to see how he performs when he and the rest of the team is healthy...

I'm just amazed at people who call themselves "Knick" fans have so many complaints when this team is off to the best start it has been in over a decade...You aren't Knick fans, you are fans of certain players and coaches and u want to see them wear Orange and Blue...It doesn't always work out that way because this is a business and there are rules in place to keep this business profitable..This team is so easy to root for... Second in the East, 11 games over .500 and there is nothing but moaning and whining on this board...Spoiled Children that haven't tasted winning and u want it your way...Me myself, I'm having an absolute ball...I learned a long time ago these teams don't belong to Gallo or Lin or DLee...I have watched Rory Sparrow and Ray Williams on absolutely miserable teams...I have watched teams where u have no choice but to root for a certain player...Teams with BKing and Michael Ray...We are winning guys..Felton is leading the way..Enjoy it..It's not a given to be 11 game up on .500, you figure Knick fans of all people would know that...Truly Amazing...Felton Suck, Lin is great...Happy?!?!?!..Knicks winning..Unhappy?!?!?!...Amazing...

dk7th wrote:

holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:

RonRon wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nycisgreat wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

nycisgreat wrote:

knickscity wrote:The team misses Felton, that shouldn't even be deabated.

+1, a healthy Felton will get us back on track.

+1000 I don't understand why anyone who actually watches our games disputes this, I really don't.

Neither do I; Felton is a below average starting PG but we still need him.

Lol! Below average. You either still are upset about Lin or you are just delusional. Do you have facts to backup what you are saying? Show me the numbers.

Show you the numbers? Have missed every link already. List 15 starting PGs that he is better than if you think he is better than the average starting PG.

in no order

PGs
----------

Westbrook
CP3
Deron
Parker
Curry
Holiday
Rhondo
Nash
Vazquez
Irving
Jennings
Lilliard
Dragic
Conley
Lawson
==================
15
==================
Kemba Walker

Injured, without all are much better, but all will be starting once they get back healthy
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Wall played yesterday but wasn't starting
Rose
Rubio
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nelson
Lin
Toronto's PG's in Lowry/Calderon

Felton is somewhere here...

Darren Collison
Mo Williams
George Hill

Not to mention some teams have 2 PG's that are better

This doesn't make Felton any less important to our roster because he is VERY IMPORTANT, but he is just not that good
If he can cut out some of the poor shot selection he would be a lot better and he would move up in rankings, but at this point of his career, he is what he is, he is more or less peaked out already

I don't think the number's are necessary, there really isn't a debate, Felton is mediocre AT BEST and has peaked out in terms of development, not much more before he goes downhill as age catches up with him, as he has trouble staying in front of PG's already

OUCH! But I agree!

Really, I look at teams with good PG's and just think "Man, how much better we'd be with a good PG on our team." So many have been there for the taking the last few years. I hope we draft a young stud PG this year that other teams passed on. It's about time a Mark Jackson falls into our laps again. (Well, I think that was Lin, but hit us again please.)

Irregardless of where Felton's place is on that list..Before any of his hand injuries he was playing like one of the better PG's in this league...His play was a notch below that of an all star...This team, performed like on of the better teams in the league with Felton on the court...Everyone here including myself would love to have Chris Paul or Rondo or Parker or Westbrook but it isn't realistic...It's pure fantasy...Why not throw in Bron and Durant while we are at it...Felton's fits well with this team...I would like to see how he performs when he and the rest of the team is healthy...

I'm just amazed at people who call themselves "Knick" fans have so many complaints when this team is off to the best start it has been in over a decade...You aren't Knick fans, you are fans of certain players and coaches and u want to see them wear Orange and Blue...It doesn't always work out that way because this is a business and there are rules in place to keep this business profitable..This team is so easy to root for... Second in the East, 11 games over .500 and there is nothing but moaning an whining on this board...Spoiled Children that haven't tasted winning and u want it your way...Me myself, I'm having an absolute ball...I learned a long time ago these teams don't belong to Gallo or Lin or DLee...I have watch Rory Sparrow and Ray Williams...I have watched teams where u have no choice but to root for a certain player...Teams with BKing and Michael Ray...We are winning guys..Felton is leading the way..Enjoy it..It's not a given to be 11 game up on .500, you figure Knick fans of all people would know that...Truly Amazing...Felton Suck, Lin is great...Happy?!?!?!..Knicks winning..Unhappy?!?!?!...Amazing...

glad for you that you're having a ball in the regular season. as a self-proclaimed knick fan and a long-suffering one, you are entitled to enjoy the ride.

me? not so much. i too am a self-proclaimed and long suffering knick fan but i am monitoring the ride, assessing what our chances are at reaching the ECF and beyond.... dk7th will enjoy being the same sort of fan as you when we get there, trust me.

meanwhile the clock continues to tick on this incarnation of the knicks.

Bro, u are belly aching the last couple of years for a guy who was the arguably the third best player when he was here..The Mayor was playing better and had better numbers...Let's not talk defense...You don't care about reaching the ECF,...If so you would embrace Melo..But u pine for Gallo and that .500 team...It was a pipe dream to think of the ECF before Melo...You should be ecstatic you even allow yourself to talk about ECF and not have this board laugh at you..Think about that for just one second...

dk7th wrote:

RonRon wrote:

dk7th wrote:

RonRon wrote:

dk7th wrote:i'd add both ridnour and hinrich.

I already have Rose and Rubio, as for Ridnour/Twolves, you might have a case with JJ Barea/Shved/Rubio in there as well

As for Hinrich, I have to give more credit to the coaching staff and the team as more important factor's to Hinrich's skill
Hinrich is a solid player, but he struggled heavily outside of Chicago, with Washington and Atlanta for a couple of year's
He is a great fit for Chicago with his IQ and style of play

Chicago is the Spur's Poppavich of the East
They are just all high IQ, hard working, UNSELFISH, and all have multiple defender's with speed/athleticism to go along with their coaching schemes/discipline
Deng/Noah/Taj Gibson and then Hinrich are the crucial pieces to their defensive schemes

yes chicago has a great group of players and a great coach. hinrich's numbers have been creeping closer to point guard numbers and away from hybrid/tweener numbers over the last several seasons, in terms of his usg/ast ratio. this range is between .80:1 and 1.0:1 while a decent point guard will have a ratio closer to 0.50:1

so you're right that there is a considerable tipping this season since that ration now is in fact around 0.49:1

felton is stuck in tweener territory at 0.83:1 and doesn't help his cause by shooting a putrid TS of 46%. hinrich is not a better shooter thus far but he has been the better orchestrator as the stats illustrate.

I generally don't like to use STAT's because they can be very misleading
It doesn't measure how each player attained those STAT's, for instance, is grabbing 20 rebounds 7 in one play of your own misses very misleading?

I am not saying Hinrich doesn't deserve any credit for orchestrating the offense, but the team/coach deserve's much more credit because they utilize each other with cuts, picks, each other's abilities/mismatches as they read the opponents how they are playing them

My point, Hinrich was unable to be half the player he was in Washington and Atlanta without any consistency at all
He need's high IQ/unselfish players and that is what Chicago has and their style of play, making him a great fit with each other

Hinrich didn't have the players IQ and style of bball that he needs and that is why an important fit is very crucial

so what does this imply about the knicks as a squad and woodson as a coach?

that we run a complete different system and play different style of at least the theories on offense
as well as having multiple high IQ players that are skilled and physically gifted that are not 40 year years of age

in response to holfresh

we played well and we on a groove
Felton is very important to the team but he just is not that good, this is the reality of it
I have said he is important many times, I am not bashing him, I ranked him accordingly

I never said I would try to get those type of PG's or Lebron/Durant, you did

It is obvious that my list is more or less accurate, I don't care what level you think Felton was playing at
Just because he was playing at an All Star Level does not make him an All Star

Lin's was playing at extremely high level last year and we let him walk for NOTHING while trading 4 2nd round picks for Felton/Camby that are under his value
Like Lin, Felton and the Knick's play was at a high level but small sample size
But since Felton is currently a Knick and Lin is not, blast Lin and his achievements and praise Felton while it is a "small sample size"

The truth hurts you as you cannot accept it or dispute it, so blast me and call me a "FAKE" fan
I have been here prior to the Isiah/Layden era, I sure as hell did not jump on the bandwagon then, during Linsanity, or this year's streak

So many posters here with no knowledge/poor understanding of the game of Basketball and the NBA, and they love to argue and prove that other's are wrong/attacking other's posts, as they are right
Some of which have never played any basketball in their life
Many of which think do not realize this as they use STAT's/past history of team to make claims while not even watching/understanding the game itself to evaluate a team and the players in the league
These type of poster's are the difference from when I first joined UK site and these last couple of year's, as they love to argue but have no clue what they are talking about

RonRon wrote:

dk7th wrote:

RonRon wrote:

dk7th wrote:

RonRon wrote:

dk7th wrote:i'd add both ridnour and hinrich.

I already have Rose and Rubio, as for Ridnour/Twolves, you might have a case with JJ Barea/Shved/Rubio in there as well

As for Hinrich, I have to give more credit to the coaching staff and the team as more important factor's to Hinrich's skill
Hinrich is a solid player, but he struggled heavily outside of Chicago, with Washington and Atlanta for a couple of year's
He is a great fit for Chicago with his IQ and style of play

Chicago is the Spur's Poppavich of the East
They are just all high IQ, hard working, UNSELFISH, and all have multiple defender's with speed/athleticism to go along with their coaching schemes/discipline
Deng/Noah/Taj Gibson and then Hinrich are the crucial pieces to their defensive schemes

yes chicago has a great group of players and a great coach. hinrich's numbers have been creeping closer to point guard numbers and away from hybrid/tweener numbers over the last several seasons, in terms of his usg/ast ratio. this range is between .80:1 and 1.0:1 while a decent point guard will have a ratio closer to 0.50:1

so you're right that there is a considerable tipping this season since that ration now is in fact around 0.49:1

felton is stuck in tweener territory at 0.83:1 and doesn't help his cause by shooting a putrid TS of 46%. hinrich is not a better shooter thus far but he has been the better orchestrator as the stats illustrate.

I generally don't like to use STAT's because they can be very misleading
It doesn't measure how each player attained those STAT's, for instance, is grabbing 20 rebounds 7 in one play of your own misses very misleading?

I am not saying Hinrich doesn't deserve any credit for orchestrating the offense, but the team/coach deserve's much more credit because they utilize each other with cuts, picks, each other's abilities/mismatches as they read the opponents how they are playing them

My point, Hinrich was unable to be half the player he was in Washington and Atlanta without any consistency at all
He need's high IQ/unselfish players and that is what Chicago has and their style of play, making him a great fit with each other

Hinrich didn't have the players IQ and style of bball that he needs and that is why an important fit is very crucial

so what does this imply about the knicks as a squad and woodson as a coach?

that we run a complete different system and play different style of at least the theories on offense
as well as having multiple high IQ players that are skilled and physically gifted that are not 40 year years of age

in response to holfresh

we played well and we on a groove
Felton is very important to the team but he just is not that good, this is the reality of it
I have said he is important many times, I am not bashing him, I ranked him accordingly

I never said I would try to get those type of PG's or Lebron/Durant, you did

It is obvious that my list is more or less accurate, I don't care what level you think Felton was playing at
Just because he was playing at an All Star Level does not make him an All Star

Lin's was playing at extremely high level last year and we let him walk for NOTHING while trading 4 2nd round picks for Felton/Camby that are under his value
Like Lin, Felton and the Knick's play was at a high level but small sample size
But since Felton is currently a Knick and Lin is not, blast Lin and his achievements and praise Felton while it is a "small sample size"

The truth hurts you as you cannot accept it or dispute it, so blast me and call me a "FAKE" fan
I have been here prior to the Isiah/Layden era, I sure as hell did not jump on the bandwagon then, during Linsanity, or this year's streak

So many posters here with no knowledge/poor understanding of the game of Basketball and the NBA, and they love to argue and prove that other's are wrong/attacking other's posts, as they are right
Some of which have never played any basketball in their life
Many of which think do not realize this as they use STAT's/past history of team to make claims while not even watching/understanding the game itself to evaluate a team and the players in the league
These type of poster's are the difference from when I first joined UK site and these last couple of year's, as they love to argue but have no clue what they are talking about

Bro, it's not about being a fake fan..It's about understanding what u have...Last year, like it or not, Felton was the only option we had left at PG...We are lucky, yes, lucky to have him...Let me say it again, lucky...And you are wrong..He is good...Look at the team now....If he wasn't good, we all wouldn't be talking about ECF...Question for you tho???..Was Felton playing as notch below an all star before his hand injuries???

Bonn1997 wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:Holfresh - It's all about getting that trophy. I have fun watching games, but in the end it is about having the BEST shot at the championship. Doesn't matter what place we are in right now. My eyes see inconsistant and leaderless play. I do miss Felton but see him for what his career has been, a bit more in NY though.

Knick fans or "being American" - questioning and criticizing is healthy. A fan is not a fanatic in my book, the latter is dangerous...

You're being way too harsh. .640 half-way through a season is basically mission accomplished.

From .470 to .640...What does that look like on a graph professor???...And it's .649 for you!!!

earthmansurfer wrote:

holfresh wrote:

earthmansurfer wrote:Holfresh - It's all about getting that trophy. I have fun watching games, but in the end it is about having the BEST shot at the championship. Doesn't matter what place we are in right now. My eyes see inconsistant and leaderless play. I do miss Felton but see him for what his career has been, a bit more in NY though.

Knick fans or "being American" - questioning and criticizing is healthy. A fan is not a fanatic in my book, the latter is dangerous...

OK..You are a Lin man right???...Were you thinking Championship during Linsanity???...

I really liked Lin. No way Championship LAST year but I thought he was worth keeping around WITH Felton and Kidd. He had that IT factor, especially late in games. We will need that come payoffs. I thought it was important to load up on talent given our maxed cap and no real assets.

Well guess what, We talking Championship this year, and in big part because of Felton...You boy Lin made a mad dash for the cash...Can't hate him for that...