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tkf
Posts: 36487
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #87
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OGkush121 wrote:tkf wrote:CashMoney wrote:tkf wrote:CashMoney wrote:tkf wrote:CashMoney wrote:tkf wrote:CashMoney wrote:tkf wrote:AnubisADL wrote:3G4G wrote:Golden State should be up 2 games but they got 1 of them....Young Team On The Rise.....Building Your Team Through the Lottery has it's benefits and if done right it doesn't take took long. What about Cleveland? All they got was Kyrie Irving. Tristan Thompson and Dion Waiters have been meh...... I think the key is that you build your core around those guys and then you add free agents.. but you are only as good as your foundation... I take the yankees for example.. they have won 5 rings and numerous division titles, many free agents have come and gone, but the constant has been jeter, rivera, petite...... look at the spurs, manu, duncan, parker.... that just seems to be a recipe for sucess, now there are exceptions to the rule, but honestly I don't understand the contempt for doing things in a way that has worked over and over again, more so than not.... this is not to say other ways can't work, but it tends to be the exception, not the rule... Doesn't every team try to build through the draft? Everyone always points to the Spurs and OKC as having the blue print but then again we're talking about 2 teams in the entire league. The bottom line is that you have to get lucky to obtain the "franchise" player to build around in the 1st place. It's always been a mixture of drafting, trades and free agency. If it were so easy to say "This is the right way to build" everyone would be doing it. NBA CHAMPIONS SINCE 1989
Pistons
Pistons
Bulls
Bulls
Bulls
Rockets
Rockets
Bulls
Bulls
Bulls
Spurs
Lakers
Lakers
Lakers
Spurs
Pistons
Spurs
Heat
Spurs
Celtics
Lakers
Lakers
Mavericks
Heat That's 24 years of NBA Champions but only 8 teams. again, you missed my points.. teams that tend to win, have their foundation, their core guys through the draft..
That's 24 years of NBA Champions but only 8 teams. exactly and every last one of those teams drafted their star or core players... lakers signed shaq, but they had kobe... same with celts, they traded for garnett and Allen( draft picks and assets were traded) but pierce was also finals MVP.. Detroit.... Isiah and Dumars spurs: Duncan heat: Wade bulls: MJ rockets: Hakeem Mavs: dirk As you can see they didn't trade all of their young talent and assets to get these guys.. not at all.. doesn't that tell you something? now these teams have added free agents but again, the core of their team came through draft, or draft day trades... History doesn't show at all you can trade your way to a championship, especially if no foundation whatsoever exists previously... which is why you seem to get the old and tired defense that.. He doesn't have anyone to play with? really, well then why force a trade? sign as a free agent.. no matter how you look at things, it becomes hard to defend... Yeah it tells me that you have to be fortunate enought to land a future hall of famer in the draft. We had it with Ewing but for whatever reason couldn't get him a "robin" until his best days were behind him. We haven't come close to drafting a "franchise player" after Ewing. Then again how many have? Heck, let's go all the way back to the 1990 NBA draft and look at the HOF players that were drafted that a team could build around as in the MJ's, Bird's, Magic of the world. 1990 - Gary Payton
1991 - None
1992 - SHAQ & Alonzo Mourning
1993 - Chris Webber
1994 - Kidd, Grant Hill
1995 - Kevin Garnett
1996 - Iverson, Ray Allen, Kobe, Nash
1997 - Tim Duncan
1998 - Paul Pierce, Dirk
1999 - None
2000 - None
2001 - Tony Parker (Drafted #28)
2002 - Yao Ming, Amare
2003 - Lebron, Wade, Melo, Bosh
2004 - Dwight Howard
2005 - Chris Paul, Deron Williams?
2006 - Brandon Roy, Rajon Rondo
2007 - Kevin Durant
2008 - Rose, Westbrook, Love
2009 - Griffin, Harden, Steph Curry,
2010 - None
2011 - Kyrie Irving
2012 - Damian Lillard I have a list of 34 players apanning 23 years. Of couse I have the ability to go back in time and look at lists of hundreds of players. Should you do the same you will come acorss drafts and say to yourself "Who the heck was this guy?" What seems to be a constant is starting with a HOF player and adding other HOF players to that team. Grant Hill was amazing before his injuries and would have gone down as one of the best to ever play. Roy was on his way until his injury, YAO with his foot problems, etc. Taking it a step further, over the course of the last 23 years how many of the above players have had a HOF career and have won the hardware as the undusputed MAN for the team that drafted him? Kobe
Duncan
Dirk So what exactly is the blue print that continues to work time after time? Again, the book is still open on half of these guys.. I stated not everyone will win a ring, but sustained winning and excellence means a lot.. don't you think? You are asking for a blueprint... I am telling you what has worked over the years.... don't you agree that when you drive your car, obeying speed limits, stopping at red lights and not texting while driving usually results in a safe driving experience? it doesn't mean some jerk off may run a red light or drive drunk or maybe even posting on the UK forum while driving and crashes into you? does that mean you should stop driving responsibly? NO!! but more times than not, a certain behavior will lead to good results.. The same applies here.. build through the draft, make smart trades, make good signings, ususally that leads to tangible results.. And no, you never know who is going to be a HOF player...so to say starting with a HOF player and adding other HOF players is the recipe then I dissagree... Dirk didn't have a HOF player with him, it it certainly wasn't clear that dirk was a HOF player, otherwise the bucks don't make the Draft day trade with the maverics, which sent dirk out west for Robert Traylor.. You consider billups and Rip Hamilton HOF players? Not every draft is perfect, but I rather have that chance to determine my future and the point is, the point being made is, you either build with your picks, or if you trade assets better make sure you are making the right trade.... that is the point.. so to make it seem as if all of this is just pot luck is far from the truth.... and the teams that tend to do well, don't squander assets.. now if you think the knicks did the right thing.. well then great.. Long term, heck even short term I don't agree. I think we set ourselves back. only time will tell, but again, it is mind boggling how anyone can have such contempt for buidling through the draft, be it by daft day trades, or developing your own players... 23 years how many of the above players have had a HOF career and have won the hardware as the undusputed MAN for the team that drafted him? funny you ask that, and then add "undisputed" lol... Ok.. pierce, duncan, dirk, wade, oh and add kobe, a host of them have been to the finals or ECF a few times... not bad at all.. not bad.... And honestly why limit to the team that drafted them. I have no problem trading for the right player.. I just don't think we did... plain and simple.. but here is the key, how many of those player won rings or been to finals on teams they didn't start with, but joined great players that were already drafted by the team they joined.. the fact still remains... build through the draft.. Garnett and Allen joined a great player in pierce, who was drafted by boston.. and won.. lebron an elite of the elite players joined wade who was drafted by the heat(and he previously won) and got a ring. gary payton and alonzo joined the heat and wade and won
again, no matter how you chop it up, it comes back to that draft.. funny how that happens...
the rest of the players still have a lot of their careers left... not sure why you posted them.. Of course we didn't know that Dirk was going to be a hall of famer but that's what makes building a team through the draft so dificult. Dirk didn't have a hall of fame player with him? Yeah he did....Jason Kidd. Build through the draft? The majority of players come into the league via the draft. With the being the case one could argue that all teams build through the draft. Worked will for Cleveland losing Lebron to Miami. Worked well for Toronto losing Bosh to the Heat. Worked well for the Wolves having to trade Garnett to the Celtics. Worked well for the Magic trading SHAQ to the Lakers. Worked well for the Magic again trading Howard to the Lakers. The Hornets trading CP3, etc. I'm not arguing with anything you've stated regarding making smart trades, drafting good players, etc. but at the end of the day it's not an easy thing to do. If it were there would be more than 8 teams over the last 24 years that would have won it all. 8 teams have gotten it right and 22 have gotten it wrong over the last 24 years. Look at the pool of difference making players in the league....there aren't many. You may feel that we didn't make the right move but the jury is still out. As much as putting together a championship team takes skill it also takes some luck. Derek Jeter should have been drafted by the Astros. He wasn't and the rest is history. that is true, but have you seen this type of move ever work? and if not, don't you think it was a big risk forw what we gave up... and considering the age and history of the player acquired? honestly had this been wade or lebron, you wouldn't be getting much of an argument... I can't say that I have. IMHO, The only type of move that comes somewhat close is the Barkey trade to Phoenix minus the draft picks and cash. Worked out well until Charles and company got MJ'd.
Do I think it's a big risk for what we gave up? NO. Not to rehash the trade but what the trade has turned out to be is Mozgov, Gallo, Chandler, Quincy Miller (Nuggets 2nd round pick - NBA D League) and next years pick (2014) which is going to be a late 1st rounder which is now owned by the Sixers as part of the Iggy deal. Take a look at the difference makers in the NBA. We were presented with the opportuninty to obtain a 26 year old, all star, scoring machine who was/is one of the best players in the game and we bit. As far as hisory of the player aquired it's a matter of taste. Did we trade for a player who never missed the playoffs, did a ton of scoring and who was eliminated by superior teams out West more often than not or did we trade for a player with a terrible post season record, low shooting % in the playoffs, chucker?
Lebron....no argument there. Wade on the other hand? Add in Shaq, Payton, Alonzo and crappy calls and bam you have a NBA Champ. No doubt that Wade did his thing in the Finals but he had help, same as any other player. 2 Hall of Famers and ZO. I beleive that we're headed to an ECF showdown with the Heat. I beleive that if we can can beat the Heat we will win a championship. To me the only question is can we beat the Heat or are we going to get blocked by the best player in the game in Lebron same as we were by MJ?
also don't forget the 2016 swap.. that is key.. but the players we gave up, 2 of them are key players, one a starter on a 57 win team in the west....
As far as what we got... we just don't agree.. I think we got a volume scorer who doesn't defend or make anyone better.. plain and simple for me....I would glady trade carmelo for paul george.. but that is another discussion.. we just don't agree here and that is cool.. yeah, not gonna try to agree with you on anything since it isn't going to happen, but if you still can't give Melo any credit for how signifacntly he's improved on defense than your hate/dislike for him is blinding you from being objective.
And I'm gonna limit my post to this because I don't feel like going into a long discussion, just thought you should be aware of his effort on the defensive end.
In less than a year he went from a terrible defender to a more than adequate one, if you leave out Shump & K-Mart for obvious reasons Melo has been one of our best defenders, where Chandler got worse Melo got better.
Not trying to say he's LeBron, but he's not a bad defender anymore by any stretch of the word. I know you could put a scenario just like I'm about to, but here goes. Against the Celtics (can't remember which game exactly) Green had 20 points in the 1st half against the Knicks (was not guarded by Melo), 2nd half he scored only 2 after Woodson switched Melo on him on defense. It's safe to say the team as a whole defended better, but that's still something to take note of, it didn't "just happen".
He has not improved on defense, you finally see him giving some effort, but that does not mean improvement. I guess you can say his effort improved from very little, to decent effort.... He is not a good defender, he is actually a lazy one.. that swinging slap attempt at a block is just another disgustingly lazy effort that he gives.... why should I give credit to someone for finally trying to defend.. he still isn't good at it.... you keep using hate.. just get off that, that has nothing to do with the conversation.. If I said carmelo couldn't fly, it isn't hate, just a fact... thats all... NOT HATE, A FACT... this significant improvement you say you see, I just don't.. simple and plain... maybe it is too much LOVE on your behalf.. maybe?
Green had 20 points in the 1st half against the Knicks (was not guarded by Melo), 2nd half he scored only 2 after Woodson switched Melo on him on defense. It's safe to say the team as a whole defended better, but that's still something to take note of, it didn't "just happen". LOL.. you know you are reaching now.. right? Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser...............
TKF
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5/11/2013 10:24 AM