AnubisADL wrote:This whole worshiping Houston is hilarious. Almost as funny as Kevin Pritchard. Reality is Daryl Morey was a season away from getting the Kevin Pritchard treatment if he hadn't acquired Harden.

And Knicks(according to posters such as yourself) were apparently going nowhere fast had we not acquired Melo? Darryl Morey has always had a solid relationship with Leslie Alexander oh and had he been fired he would have been a heavily pursued GM.

Matter of fact if Houston Fires him next yr say they flop..... Dollars to Donuts he's at the top of many Knick Fans wish list including yourself...as we look towards a Hell rebuild.

So, we can all say what we "think" is going to happen, and despite how highly you think of yourself, everyone been right and wrong at some point. But I'm just going to enjoy MY KNICKS being in the playoffs right now. Because whether you like how the team was built or not, we're winning. It's not one way you can become successful.

My 3 favorite teams each built different ways.

1. GSW - Mainly through draft and key players via free agency - finally paying off, even though we been having good draft picks.
2. Detroit - a balance of Free agency and draft - worked out fine, won the 2004 championship
3. Knicks - Mainly through Free agency and 10% draft (Shump is a major piece in what we do) - So far it's working, people act like Felton, Melo and Tyson are not under 30, and accomplished more than any team put together in 13 years.

It's not you can only be successful doing things one way. You can take different approaches. Who cares how you get a player, putting a winning product on the floor is what matters, and no matter how hard it is to stomach, this year, the knicks are winning. The rest is just crying about problems that's not there.

tkf wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

tkf wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

tkf wrote:

Papabear wrote:

tkf wrote:

Papabear wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:

Papabear wrote:

tkf wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:

tkf wrote:

Hersports85 wrote:

tkf wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

tkf wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

tkf wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

tkf wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

CashMoney wrote:Considering Durant is in Lebron land he should be able to carry OKC over Memphis into the WCF's. He doesn't need Westbrook cus he's KEVIN DURANT the 2nd best player in the association.

Hahaha that made me laugh hard for some reason!

Everyone loves putting KD on a pedestal. Whether it's his stats, his lack of tattoo arm and neck sleeves, or his Mama's boy demeanor.

All I know if in the oft chance Melo and the Knicks were to face off against Durantula and OKC, it wouldn't be pretty for that choir boy(Melo's teams have won 11 of 12 against Durant).

were those games in the finals?

you talking about facing OKC...heck deal with indiana first.... 10-35 shooting is not going to beat anyone....

13-26 last night, try again.

sure..2013 playoff shooting % 39% boing!!

That has led us to a 62% winning percentage in the playoffs thus far.

this is the problem.. led us? really, no that didn't lead us at all.. saying that diminishes the play of guys like felton who honestly has been the best knick player, hands down, so far..

Felton is avg 16ppg, 5 dimes, 3.5 dimes and shooting 50%, yet carmelo until last night was shooting 31% LED US? this is the level of ridiculousness I am talking about around here..

The level of ridiculousness is measured by the continuation of arguing when the current facts don't bail you out, again and again.
I'm sure Felton would be the first to say his 5 dimes and 50% shooting was what leads the team. I truly doubt he's that blinded by Melo hate.

Why, I bet he even thinks the Knicks have a good chance to win a chip, or even get to the ECF!

Hey, why does the Nugget in the middle have a really nice rack? Is this some sort of veiled reference to Jason Collins?

so I get it, the 39% shooting and no assist is leading the knicks? do you really think felton would think that? felton is no fool and he is a competitor... without his play, knicks don't get past boston... you don't have to hate to understand that 31% shooting in a series is hardly what we call "leading" a team... that is homerism, plain and simple...

the difference here, you don't see me using the term "felton led the knicks" or this player.. or that player.. Honestly no knick is really shining, but I doubt anyone would dissagree that felton is clearly playing the best.. of course those involved in the hero worship would clearly disagree because in their eyes things like efficiency, defense and passing are for the birds...

Felton is hands-downs the best Knick in these playoffs so far. However, there were twice during the playoffs where Melo has stepped up during crunch time and willed us a victory ... Every freaking expert and ex-player have acknowledged this, but who really cares? We are in the semi-conference finals because of a collective effort. Not because of one person.

But no matter what Melo does, only the "bad" will be recognized by a select few. That's I respect Bonn a lot, especially since the playoffs started. You can tell he's rooting for the team, doesn't hesitate to point out when we're playing like crap but he's also consistent and balanced, and displays good basketball knowledge.

Throughout the course of the season and playoffs it's been a different player stepping up. Kind of put to bed the argument in the beginning of the season that we really weren't that deep or other teams were deeper. Just like when Felton wasn't a point guard to lead this team ... EVERYTHING that was said that we wasn't or couldn't do is being proven incorrect. So, I don't think we will be joining that picture anytime soon, at least not this round. And if we do, I'll be the first to "man up" although I'm a woman lol.

And yes, Melo shooting been off, but if i'm not mistaken you consider Paul Pierce a leader ... have you looked at his playoff shooting percentage? It's more to basketball than stats. Some players (example: J Kidd) can have a huge impact on a game with shooting 0-20 and slim to none in other categories.

I figured the paul pierce reference would come in, but here is the key and i mentioned it earlier, pierce does more than just shoot.. that is the key... tell me what does carmelo does other than shoot?

Well, since being a Knick, in the playoffs,

1. Melo has out rebounded Pierce in the last 3 years; in fact doubled his total in one season.

2. Playing better defense under woodson. I counted 3 turnover he directly caused last night. And him in pierce have been basically tied with steals the last 3 years.

3. Shooting over 90% at the line, which is important because this year he's 7th in FTA .. which means he's getting his opponent in foul trouble. Which is always a plus

4. Causes the double/triple team - When he plays the right way, and kick out, this is just as important as assist.

5. And according to Kidd ( who YOU states as being a leader) says that in the locker room and on the floor ... Melo is very vocal and leads the team, and also gave examples on when Melo either challenged woodson to let someone else shoot or how about when he asked MDA to play lin - straight from Lin's mouth that Melo actually did approach MDA.

ok, great then nothing less than a NBA championship and finals MVP will do.. right? Because pierce has been there, done that..

Papabear Says

Pierce won nothing until Garnett and Ray Allen cam to Boston.

Exactly, and this is the type of sh&t that pisses me off. I don't pretend that Melo is on Jordan, Kobe or Lebron level as far as talent, but some people do so much bashing and try to make him look like a bum or loser when in fact, throughout history it's only a few that have done it and when they did, they had a hell of a supporting cast. I'm a fan a basketball period. Been watching, playing and studying it since day one, and it's too much stat watching going on along with you have to do this or that to be great. I miss the old days when we just knew a player was good or had above average talent without all the BS.

I guess that's why some of the great players ... i.e Jordan recognizes that although Melo have his faults , he's a damn good basketball player. Only few can be productive while being the main focus on a team.

Stockton is one of the greatest guards ever along with Nash, never won a ring ... guess they won't amount to much either. SMH

Papabear Says

I agree! you see you have to do your homework on these azz holes. They will say anything and know it's not true just to put it out there. Example the Pierce statement! They out right lied about it. Coach Rivers was about to loose his job before Garnett and Allen came to Boston. they lied about Pierce record compared to Melo. I will give the Trolls credit that they can articulate with words. But what is words if they are lies. Here we are in the second round of the playoffs and they just can't stand it. They rather talk about Denver but guess what?? they are gone They rather talk about Houston and Jeremy Lin but guess what? they are gone. But guess who is still standing?? The New York Knicks.

dude you are just not that good at this..just tell me what does doc rivers losing his job have to do with the lack of production in postseason from carmelo anthony? carmelo is the reason for his failures.. period...

They rather talk about Denver but guess what?? they are gone They rather talk about Houston and Jeremy Lin but guess what? they are gone. But guess who is still standing?? The New York Knicks.

you know whats funny, this is called the other team thread.. and you are in here.. so guess what you rather talk about? LOL

Papabear Says

If it's other team thread then why is the topic of conversation about Melo. Why?? because you can't help yourself. Just wanted see what the Melo and Knick haters were up to. And as far a Melo's failures he is the face of the New York Knicks. He hasn't failed even though you wish he would. Just because you can't stand him. Just watch this series we will win and it will be because of Melo as you hide behind this thread.

ACTUALLY I was content talking about durant, you are the one brining up denver, Houston, and other topics.....

Just watch this series we will win and it will be because of Melo as you hide behind this thread.

if the knicks win, it won't be because of him... so far the knicks are winning in spite of him.. but if somehow things unfortunately don't work out.. will you hide?

In spite of him? Really?! Here's Melo's playoff team ranking YTD:

29.3 PPG #1
1.4 SPG tied for 3rd. Behind Prigs and Shump and tied with Ray
6.5 RPG #2 behind only Chandler
5.8 DRPG #1
1.9 APG #4 behind our 3 PG's Felton, Prigs and Kidd
.915 FT% #1

No doubt that Melo was in a shooting funk up until last game but it goes to show that he is 100% contributing in other ways. But his shooting percentage....blah, blah, blah.

Winning in spite of him? PLEASE!

27 shots to get 29 points is not good.. I would hope you lead in scoring if you are taking that many shots..

39% is not good

why ignore those important aspects of the game...

No doubt that Melo was in a shooting funk up until last game but it goes to show that he is 100% contributing in other ways. But his shooting percentage....blah, blah, blah.

hey I can't determine your standards, all i can do is express mine.. if this is ok for you then cool.. just not good enough for me.. 27 shots per game is not good if you are not making them, just not a recipe for winning.. 1.9 APG? really you think that is acceptable?

I like how you list the stats and put only behind our 3pg's or only behind.. well I mean really is that suppose to hurt or help his case.. I don't know because.... it's like saying I got a 75% on my test in school.. only behind the other 18 students in a class of 20...

I mean this is reaching a bit... again, you have your standards, I have mine..

plain and simple..

27 shots per game would not be a problem if he was making them, right? What is the magical % for you? Is it 50% or better, 45%, 40%? Shooters shoot plain and simple. 1.9 APG is what it is. Considering that as a team we were dead last in assists per game and Melo is not Lebron he's not going to lead the team in assists but considering out top asisst man is only dishing out 4 per game does this hurt Melo in your humble opinion?

My standards eqaute to W's.

what kind of question is that.. of course if you are making most of your shots, it will be less of a problem, but no one really should be taking 27spg.. 45% or better would be fine, but I will say this.. 39% really should not be acceptable especially if you are taking 27spg and I think you know that...

sure all standards should equate to wins.. and right now the knicks are tied in a dogfight... so we will see I guess..

39% is not acceptable but bad games are going to happen, especially when you have one player that can pretty much score at will. With the way the Knicks are built Melo is going to take that many shots...like it, hate it, or love it, it's what it is. He is and always will be a volume shooter. Looks like and unstoppable machine when he's scoring at will and makes me want to throw my remote at the TV when he's wide open and bricks shot after shot.

Melo had had 4 terrible shooting games and we managed to win 1 of those....clincher against Boston. When he is on we win. Not to make excuses for the guy (he hasn't made any) but his shoulder is an issue. Hopefully that rest gets him back to the Melo Maniac he should be.

We shall see but I see a ECF showdown with LeDouche and company.

CashMoney wrote:

tkf wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

tkf wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

3G4G wrote:Golden State should be up 2 games but they got 1 of them....

Young Team On The Rise.....Building Your Team Through the Lottery has it's benefits and if done right it doesn't take took long.

What about Cleveland? All they got was Kyrie Irving. Tristan Thompson and Dion Waiters have been meh......

I think the key is that you build your core around those guys and then you add free agents.. but you are only as good as your foundation... I take the yankees for example.. they have won 5 rings and numerous division titles, many free agents have come and gone, but the constant has been jeter, rivera, petite...... look at the spurs, manu, duncan, parker.... that just seems to be a recipe for sucess, now there are exceptions to the rule, but honestly I don't understand the contempt for doing things in a way that has worked over and over again, more so than not.... this is not to say other ways can't work, but it tends to be the exception, not the rule...

Doesn't every team try to build through the draft? Everyone always points to the Spurs and OKC as having the blue print but then again we're talking about 2 teams in the entire league. The bottom line is that you have to get lucky to obtain the "franchise" player to build around in the 1st place. It's always been a mixture of drafting, trades and free agency. If it were so easy to say "This is the right way to build" everyone would be doing it.

NBA CHAMPIONS SINCE 1989
Pistons
Pistons
Bulls
Bulls
Bulls
Rockets
Rockets
Bulls
Bulls
Bulls
Spurs
Lakers
Lakers
Lakers
Spurs
Pistons
Spurs
Heat
Spurs
Celtics
Lakers
Lakers
Mavericks
Heat

That's 24 years of NBA Champions but only 8 teams.

again, you missed my points.. teams that tend to win, have their foundation, their core guys through the draft..

That's 24 years of NBA Champions but only 8 teams.

exactly and every last one of those teams drafted their star or core players... lakers signed shaq, but they had kobe... same with celts, they traded for garnett and Allen( draft picks and assets were traded) but pierce was also finals MVP..

Detroit.... Isiah and Dumars

spurs: Duncan

heat: Wade

bulls: MJ

rockets: Hakeem

Mavs: dirk

As you can see they didn't trade all of their young talent and assets to get these guys.. not at all.. doesn't that tell you something?

now these teams have added free agents but again, the core of their team came through draft, or draft day trades... History doesn't show at all you can trade your way to a championship, especially if no foundation whatsoever exists previously...

which is why you seem to get the old and tired defense that.. He doesn't have anyone to play with? really, well then why force a trade? sign as a free agent.. no matter how you look at things, it becomes hard to defend...

Yeah it tells me that you have to be fortunate enought to land a future hall of famer in the draft. We had it with Ewing but for whatever reason couldn't get him a "robin" until his best days were behind him. We haven't come close to drafting a "franchise player" after Ewing. Then again how many have?

Heck, let's go all the way back to the 1990 NBA draft and look at the HOF players that were drafted that a team could build around as in the MJ's, Bird's, Magic of the world.

1990 - Gary Payton
1991 - None
1992 - SHAQ & Alonzo Mourning
1993 - Chris Webber
1994 - Kidd, Grant Hill
1995 - Kevin Garnett
1996 - Iverson, Ray Allen, Kobe, Nash
1997 - Tim Duncan
1998 - Paul Pierce, Dirk
1999 - None
2000 - None
2001 - Tony Parker (Drafted #28)
2002 - Yao Ming, Amare
2003 - Lebron, Wade, Melo, Bosh
2004 - Dwight Howard
2005 - Chris Paul, Deron Williams?
2006 - Brandon Roy, Rajon Rondo
2007 - Kevin Durant
2008 - Rose, Westbrook, Love
2009 - Griffin, Harden, Steph Curry,
2010 - None
2011 - Kyrie Irving
2012 - Damian Lillard

I have a list of 34 players apanning 23 years. Of couse I have the ability to go back in time and look at lists of hundreds of players. Should you do the same you will come acorss drafts and say to yourself "Who the heck was this guy?"

What seems to be a constant is starting with a HOF player and adding other HOF players to that team. Grant Hill was amazing before his injuries and would have gone down as one of the best to ever play. Roy was on his way until his injury, YAO with his foot problems, etc. Taking it a step further, over the course of the last 23 years how many of the above players have had a HOF career and have won the hardware as the undusputed MAN for the team that drafted him?

Kobe
Duncan
Dirk

So what exactly is the blue print that continues to work time after time?

Again, the book is still open on half of these guys.. I stated not everyone will win a ring, but sustained winning and excellence means a lot.. don't you think? You are asking for a blueprint... I am telling you what has worked over the years.... don't you agree that when you drive your car, obeying speed limits, stopping at red lights and not texting while driving usually results in a safe driving experience? it doesn't mean some jerk off may run a red light or drive drunk or maybe even posting on the UK forum while driving and crashes into you? does that mean you should stop driving responsibly? NO!! but more times than not, a certain behavior will lead to good results..

The same applies here.. build through the draft, make smart trades, make good signings, ususally that leads to tangible results..

And no, you never know who is going to be a HOF player...so to say starting with a HOF player and adding other HOF players is the recipe then I dissagree... Dirk didn't have a HOF player with him, it it certainly wasn't clear that dirk was a HOF player, otherwise the bucks don't make the Draft day trade with the maverics, which sent dirk out west for Robert Traylor.. You consider billups and Rip Hamilton HOF players?

Not every draft is perfect, but I rather have that chance to determine my future and the point is, the point being made is, you either build with your picks, or if you trade assets better make sure you are making the right trade.... that is the point.. so to make it seem as if all of this is just pot luck is far from the truth.... and the teams that tend to do well, don't squander assets.. now if you think the knicks did the right thing.. well then great.. Long term, heck even short term I don't agree. I think we set ourselves back. only time will tell, but again, it is mind boggling how anyone can have such contempt for buidling through the draft, be it by daft day trades, or developing your own players...

23 years how many of the above players have had a HOF career and have won the hardware as the undusputed MAN for the team that drafted him?

funny you ask that, and then add "undisputed" lol... Ok.. pierce, duncan, dirk, wade, oh and add kobe, a host of them have been to the finals or ECF a few times... not bad at all.. not bad....

And honestly why limit to the team that drafted them. I have no problem trading for the right player.. I just don't think we did... plain and simple.. but here is the key, how many of those player won rings or been to finals on teams they didn't start with, but joined great players that were already drafted by the team they joined.. the fact still remains... build through the draft..

Garnett and Allen joined a great player in pierce, who was drafted by boston.. and won..

lebron an elite of the elite players joined wade who was drafted by the heat(and he previously won) and got a ring.

gary payton and alonzo joined the heat and wade and won

again, no matter how you chop it up, it comes back to that draft.. funny how that happens...

the rest of the players still have a lot of their careers left... not sure why you posted them..

tkf wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

tkf wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

tkf wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

3G4G wrote:Golden State should be up 2 games but they got 1 of them....

Young Team On The Rise.....Building Your Team Through the Lottery has it's benefits and if done right it doesn't take took long.

What about Cleveland? All they got was Kyrie Irving. Tristan Thompson and Dion Waiters have been meh......

I think the key is that you build your core around those guys and then you add free agents.. but you are only as good as your foundation... I take the yankees for example.. they have won 5 rings and numerous division titles, many free agents have come and gone, but the constant has been jeter, rivera, petite...... look at the spurs, manu, duncan, parker.... that just seems to be a recipe for sucess, now there are exceptions to the rule, but honestly I don't understand the contempt for doing things in a way that has worked over and over again, more so than not.... this is not to say other ways can't work, but it tends to be the exception, not the rule...

Doesn't every team try to build through the draft? Everyone always points to the Spurs and OKC as having the blue print but then again we're talking about 2 teams in the entire league. The bottom line is that you have to get lucky to obtain the "franchise" player to build around in the 1st place. It's always been a mixture of drafting, trades and free agency. If it were so easy to say "This is the right way to build" everyone would be doing it.

NBA CHAMPIONS SINCE 1989
Pistons
Pistons
Bulls
Bulls
Bulls
Rockets
Rockets
Bulls
Bulls
Bulls
Spurs
Lakers
Lakers
Lakers
Spurs
Pistons
Spurs
Heat
Spurs
Celtics
Lakers
Lakers
Mavericks
Heat

That's 24 years of NBA Champions but only 8 teams.

again, you missed my points.. teams that tend to win, have their foundation, their core guys through the draft..

That's 24 years of NBA Champions but only 8 teams.

exactly and every last one of those teams drafted their star or core players... lakers signed shaq, but they had kobe... same with celts, they traded for garnett and Allen( draft picks and assets were traded) but pierce was also finals MVP..

Detroit.... Isiah and Dumars

spurs: Duncan

heat: Wade

bulls: MJ

rockets: Hakeem

Mavs: dirk

As you can see they didn't trade all of their young talent and assets to get these guys.. not at all.. doesn't that tell you something?

now these teams have added free agents but again, the core of their team came through draft, or draft day trades... History doesn't show at all you can trade your way to a championship, especially if no foundation whatsoever exists previously...

which is why you seem to get the old and tired defense that.. He doesn't have anyone to play with? really, well then why force a trade? sign as a free agent.. no matter how you look at things, it becomes hard to defend...

Yeah it tells me that you have to be fortunate enought to land a future hall of famer in the draft. We had it with Ewing but for whatever reason couldn't get him a "robin" until his best days were behind him. We haven't come close to drafting a "franchise player" after Ewing. Then again how many have?

Heck, let's go all the way back to the 1990 NBA draft and look at the HOF players that were drafted that a team could build around as in the MJ's, Bird's, Magic of the world.

1990 - Gary Payton
1991 - None
1992 - SHAQ & Alonzo Mourning
1993 - Chris Webber
1994 - Kidd, Grant Hill
1995 - Kevin Garnett
1996 - Iverson, Ray Allen, Kobe, Nash
1997 - Tim Duncan
1998 - Paul Pierce, Dirk
1999 - None
2000 - None
2001 - Tony Parker (Drafted #28)
2002 - Yao Ming, Amare
2003 - Lebron, Wade, Melo, Bosh
2004 - Dwight Howard
2005 - Chris Paul, Deron Williams?
2006 - Brandon Roy, Rajon Rondo
2007 - Kevin Durant
2008 - Rose, Westbrook, Love
2009 - Griffin, Harden, Steph Curry,
2010 - None
2011 - Kyrie Irving
2012 - Damian Lillard

I have a list of 34 players apanning 23 years. Of couse I have the ability to go back in time and look at lists of hundreds of players. Should you do the same you will come acorss drafts and say to yourself "Who the heck was this guy?"

What seems to be a constant is starting with a HOF player and adding other HOF players to that team. Grant Hill was amazing before his injuries and would have gone down as one of the best to ever play. Roy was on his way until his injury, YAO with his foot problems, etc. Taking it a step further, over the course of the last 23 years how many of the above players have had a HOF career and have won the hardware as the undusputed MAN for the team that drafted him?

Kobe
Duncan
Dirk

So what exactly is the blue print that continues to work time after time?

Again, the book is still open on half of these guys.. I stated not everyone will win a ring, but sustained winning and excellence means a lot.. don't you think? You are asking for a blueprint... I am telling you what has worked over the years.... don't you agree that when you drive your car, obeying speed limits, stopping at red lights and not texting while driving usually results in a safe driving experience? it doesn't mean some jerk off may run a red light or drive drunk or maybe even posting on the UK forum while driving and crashes into you? does that mean you should stop driving responsibly? NO!! but more times than not, a certain behavior will lead to good results..

The same applies here.. build through the draft, make smart trades, make good signings, ususally that leads to tangible results..

And no, you never know who is going to be a HOF player...so to say starting with a HOF player and adding other HOF players is the recipe then I dissagree... Dirk didn't have a HOF player with him, it it certainly wasn't clear that dirk was a HOF player, otherwise the bucks don't make the Draft day trade with the maverics, which sent dirk out west for Robert Traylor.. You consider billups and Rip Hamilton HOF players?

Not every draft is perfect, but I rather have that chance to determine my future and the point is, the point being made is, you either build with your picks, or if you trade assets better make sure you are making the right trade.... that is the point.. so to make it seem as if all of this is just pot luck is far from the truth.... and the teams that tend to do well, don't squander assets.. now if you think the knicks did the right thing.. well then great.. Long term, heck even short term I don't agree. I think we set ourselves back. only time will tell, but again, it is mind boggling how anyone can have such contempt for buidling through the draft, be it by daft day trades, or developing your own players...

23 years how many of the above players have had a HOF career and have won the hardware as the undusputed MAN for the team that drafted him?

funny you ask that, and then add "undisputed" lol... Ok.. pierce, duncan, dirk, wade, oh and add kobe, a host of them have been to the finals or ECF a few times... not bad at all.. not bad....

And honestly why limit to the team that drafted them. I have no problem trading for the right player.. I just don't think we did... plain and simple.. but here is the key, how many of those player won rings or been to finals on teams they didn't start with, but joined great players that were already drafted by the team they joined.. the fact still remains... build through the draft..

Garnett and Allen joined a great player in pierce, who was drafted by boston.. and won..

lebron an elite of the elite players joined wade who was drafted by the heat(and he previously won) and got a ring.

gary payton and alonzo joined the heat and wade and won

again, no matter how you chop it up, it comes back to that draft.. funny how that happens...

the rest of the players still have a lot of their careers left... not sure why you posted them..

Of course we didn't know that Dirk was going to be a hall of famer but that's what makes building a team through the draft so dificult. Dirk didn't have a hall of fame player with him? Yeah he did....Jason Kidd.

Build through the draft? The majority of players come into the league via the draft. With the being the case one could argue that all teams build through the draft. Worked will for Cleveland losing Lebron to Miami. Worked well for Toronto losing Bosh to the Heat. Worked well for the Wolves having to trade Garnett to the Celtics. Worked well for the Magic trading SHAQ to the Lakers. Worked well for the Magic again trading Howard to the Lakers. The Hornets trading CP3, etc.

I'm not arguing with anything you've stated regarding making smart trades, drafting good players, etc. but at the end of the day it's not an easy thing to do. If it were there would be more than 8 teams over the last 24 years that would have won it all. 8 teams have gotten it right and 22 have gotten it wrong over the last 24 years.

Look at the pool of difference making players in the league....there aren't many. You may feel that we didn't make the right move but the jury is still out.

As much as putting together a championship team takes skill it also takes some luck. Derek Jeter should have been drafted by the Astros. He wasn't and the rest is history.

Nalod wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:Lol this thread is hilarious.

Dudes are salivating at the thought of the Melo getting eliminated so they can say, "I told you so".

Lots of posturing these days regarding melo.

Denver does well: "told you so"

Denver loses in first round: "told you so"

Lin not insane: "Told you so"

Lin insane: "told you so"

Melo good game: "Told you so"

Melo off night: "Told you so"

Knicks get pushed around: "Oak would not put up with it"

Knicks play good D: "Knicks basketball!"

Gallo good game: "Told you so"

Gallo hurt: "told you so"

McHale: "Sucks balls"

Houstan wins: "Hardens a beast!"

Hardens a best: "Melo is better"

Melo not effiecient as Harden: "Houstan out in first round"

Houstan out in first round: "LIn sucks"

Lin sucks: "Told you so"

Melo sucks: "No he don't, Karl sucks balls"

Denver GM exec of the year: "no pressure"

Knicks win: "We gonna win series"

Knicks lose home court advantage: "OMG FIRE WOODY, HIRE SKILES!"

KNicks win: "Grunwald exec of the year!!!"

Knicks Lose: "Stern hates the knicks"

KNicks win: "Gift, extend series to boost ratings"!

Lather, rinse, repeat.......

The fence is always white on each side of the grass.

tkf wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

tkf wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

tkf wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

tkf wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

3G4G wrote:Golden State should be up 2 games but they got 1 of them....

Young Team On The Rise.....Building Your Team Through the Lottery has it's benefits and if done right it doesn't take took long.

What about Cleveland? All they got was Kyrie Irving. Tristan Thompson and Dion Waiters have been meh......

I think the key is that you build your core around those guys and then you add free agents.. but you are only as good as your foundation... I take the yankees for example.. they have won 5 rings and numerous division titles, many free agents have come and gone, but the constant has been jeter, rivera, petite...... look at the spurs, manu, duncan, parker.... that just seems to be a recipe for sucess, now there are exceptions to the rule, but honestly I don't understand the contempt for doing things in a way that has worked over and over again, more so than not.... this is not to say other ways can't work, but it tends to be the exception, not the rule...

Doesn't every team try to build through the draft? Everyone always points to the Spurs and OKC as having the blue print but then again we're talking about 2 teams in the entire league. The bottom line is that you have to get lucky to obtain the "franchise" player to build around in the 1st place. It's always been a mixture of drafting, trades and free agency. If it were so easy to say "This is the right way to build" everyone would be doing it.

NBA CHAMPIONS SINCE 1989
Pistons
Pistons
Bulls
Bulls
Bulls
Rockets
Rockets
Bulls
Bulls
Bulls
Spurs
Lakers
Lakers
Lakers
Spurs
Pistons
Spurs
Heat
Spurs
Celtics
Lakers
Lakers
Mavericks
Heat

That's 24 years of NBA Champions but only 8 teams.

again, you missed my points.. teams that tend to win, have their foundation, their core guys through the draft..

That's 24 years of NBA Champions but only 8 teams.

exactly and every last one of those teams drafted their star or core players... lakers signed shaq, but they had kobe... same with celts, they traded for garnett and Allen( draft picks and assets were traded) but pierce was also finals MVP..

Detroit.... Isiah and Dumars

spurs: Duncan

heat: Wade

bulls: MJ

rockets: Hakeem

Mavs: dirk

As you can see they didn't trade all of their young talent and assets to get these guys.. not at all.. doesn't that tell you something?

now these teams have added free agents but again, the core of their team came through draft, or draft day trades... History doesn't show at all you can trade your way to a championship, especially if no foundation whatsoever exists previously...

which is why you seem to get the old and tired defense that.. He doesn't have anyone to play with? really, well then why force a trade? sign as a free agent.. no matter how you look at things, it becomes hard to defend...

Yeah it tells me that you have to be fortunate enought to land a future hall of famer in the draft. We had it with Ewing but for whatever reason couldn't get him a "robin" until his best days were behind him. We haven't come close to drafting a "franchise player" after Ewing. Then again how many have?

Heck, let's go all the way back to the 1990 NBA draft and look at the HOF players that were drafted that a team could build around as in the MJ's, Bird's, Magic of the world.

1990 - Gary Payton
1991 - None
1992 - SHAQ & Alonzo Mourning
1993 - Chris Webber
1994 - Kidd, Grant Hill
1995 - Kevin Garnett
1996 - Iverson, Ray Allen, Kobe, Nash
1997 - Tim Duncan
1998 - Paul Pierce, Dirk
1999 - None
2000 - None
2001 - Tony Parker (Drafted #28)
2002 - Yao Ming, Amare
2003 - Lebron, Wade, Melo, Bosh
2004 - Dwight Howard
2005 - Chris Paul, Deron Williams?
2006 - Brandon Roy, Rajon Rondo
2007 - Kevin Durant
2008 - Rose, Westbrook, Love
2009 - Griffin, Harden, Steph Curry,
2010 - None
2011 - Kyrie Irving
2012 - Damian Lillard

I have a list of 34 players apanning 23 years. Of couse I have the ability to go back in time and look at lists of hundreds of players. Should you do the same you will come acorss drafts and say to yourself "Who the heck was this guy?"

What seems to be a constant is starting with a HOF player and adding other HOF players to that team. Grant Hill was amazing before his injuries and would have gone down as one of the best to ever play. Roy was on his way until his injury, YAO with his foot problems, etc. Taking it a step further, over the course of the last 23 years how many of the above players have had a HOF career and have won the hardware as the undusputed MAN for the team that drafted him?

Kobe
Duncan
Dirk

So what exactly is the blue print that continues to work time after time?

Again, the book is still open on half of these guys.. I stated not everyone will win a ring, but sustained winning and excellence means a lot.. don't you think? You are asking for a blueprint... I am telling you what has worked over the years.... don't you agree that when you drive your car, obeying speed limits, stopping at red lights and not texting while driving usually results in a safe driving experience? it doesn't mean some jerk off may run a red light or drive drunk or maybe even posting on the UK forum while driving and crashes into you? does that mean you should stop driving responsibly? NO!! but more times than not, a certain behavior will lead to good results..

The same applies here.. build through the draft, make smart trades, make good signings, ususally that leads to tangible results..

And no, you never know who is going to be a HOF player...so to say starting with a HOF player and adding other HOF players is the recipe then I dissagree... Dirk didn't have a HOF player with him, it it certainly wasn't clear that dirk was a HOF player, otherwise the bucks don't make the Draft day trade with the maverics, which sent dirk out west for Robert Traylor.. You consider billups and Rip Hamilton HOF players?

Not every draft is perfect, but I rather have that chance to determine my future and the point is, the point being made is, you either build with your picks, or if you trade assets better make sure you are making the right trade.... that is the point.. so to make it seem as if all of this is just pot luck is far from the truth.... and the teams that tend to do well, don't squander assets.. now if you think the knicks did the right thing.. well then great.. Long term, heck even short term I don't agree. I think we set ourselves back. only time will tell, but again, it is mind boggling how anyone can have such contempt for buidling through the draft, be it by daft day trades, or developing your own players...

23 years how many of the above players have had a HOF career and have won the hardware as the undusputed MAN for the team that drafted him?

funny you ask that, and then add "undisputed" lol... Ok.. pierce, duncan, dirk, wade, oh and add kobe, a host of them have been to the finals or ECF a few times... not bad at all.. not bad....

And honestly why limit to the team that drafted them. I have no problem trading for the right player.. I just don't think we did... plain and simple.. but here is the key, how many of those player won rings or been to finals on teams they didn't start with, but joined great players that were already drafted by the team they joined.. the fact still remains... build through the draft..

Garnett and Allen joined a great player in pierce, who was drafted by boston.. and won..

lebron an elite of the elite players joined wade who was drafted by the heat(and he previously won) and got a ring.

gary payton and alonzo joined the heat and wade and won

again, no matter how you chop it up, it comes back to that draft.. funny how that happens...

the rest of the players still have a lot of their careers left... not sure why you posted them..

Of course we didn't know that Dirk was going to be a hall of famer but that's what makes building a team through the draft so dificult. Dirk didn't have a hall of fame player with him? Yeah he did....Jason Kidd.

Build through the draft? The majority of players come into the league via the draft. With the being the case one could argue that all teams build through the draft. Worked will for Cleveland losing Lebron to Miami. Worked well for Toronto losing Bosh to the Heat. Worked well for the Wolves having to trade Garnett to the Celtics. Worked well for the Magic trading SHAQ to the Lakers. Worked well for the Magic again trading Howard to the Lakers. The Hornets trading CP3, etc.

I'm not arguing with anything you've stated regarding making smart trades, drafting good players, etc. but at the end of the day it's not an easy thing to do. If it were there would be more than 8 teams over the last 24 years that would have won it all. 8 teams have gotten it right and 22 have gotten it wrong over the last 24 years.

Look at the pool of difference making players in the league....there aren't many. You may feel that we didn't make the right move but the jury is still out.

As much as putting together a championship team takes skill it also takes some luck. Derek Jeter should have been drafted by the Astros. He wasn't and the rest is history.

that is true, but have you seen this type of move ever work? and if not, don't you think it was a big risk forw what we gave up... and considering the age and history of the player acquired? honestly had this been wade or lebron, you wouldn't be getting much of an argument...

The risk was really with Amare, but over time the trade has grown on me for a few reasons. Not because its Him or Gallo/Wilson becaues I still believe knicks make a move for someone else Harden, Dwight, Deron, CP3 or on a lessor level Rudy Gay.

But Given that Amare was damaged goods Melo is the type of player for this franchise. Thats not a 100% endorsement but this is what the knicks wanted and his star shines bright.

I don't feel this is a team of destiny with a strong contender status.

If Im wrong, they'll make me very happy! If not, I'm ok too!

ONe season at a time. This has been a great season so far. Its may and they still playing!!!

ChuckBuck wrote:

Nalod wrote:

tkf wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

tkf wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

tkf wrote:

CashMoney wrote:

tkf wrote:

AnubisADL wrote:

3G4G wrote:Golden State should be up 2 games but they got 1 of them....

Young Team On The Rise.....Building Your Team Through the Lottery has it's benefits and if done right it doesn't take took long.

What about Cleveland? All they got was Kyrie Irving. Tristan Thompson and Dion Waiters have been meh......

I think the key is that you build your core around those guys and then you add free agents.. but you are only as good as your foundation... I take the yankees for example.. they have won 5 rings and numerous division titles, many free agents have come and gone, but the constant has been jeter, rivera, petite...... look at the spurs, manu, duncan, parker.... that just seems to be a recipe for sucess, now there are exceptions to the rule, but honestly I don't understand the contempt for doing things in a way that has worked over and over again, more so than not.... this is not to say other ways can't work, but it tends to be the exception, not the rule...

Doesn't every team try to build through the draft? Everyone always points to the Spurs and OKC as having the blue print but then again we're talking about 2 teams in the entire league. The bottom line is that you have to get lucky to obtain the "franchise" player to build around in the 1st place. It's always been a mixture of drafting, trades and free agency. If it were so easy to say "This is the right way to build" everyone would be doing it.

NBA CHAMPIONS SINCE 1989
Pistons
Pistons
Bulls
Bulls
Bulls
Rockets
Rockets
Bulls
Bulls
Bulls
Spurs
Lakers
Lakers
Lakers
Spurs
Pistons
Spurs
Heat
Spurs
Celtics
Lakers
Lakers
Mavericks
Heat

That's 24 years of NBA Champions but only 8 teams.

again, you missed my points.. teams that tend to win, have their foundation, their core guys through the draft..

That's 24 years of NBA Champions but only 8 teams.

exactly and every last one of those teams drafted their star or core players... lakers signed shaq, but they had kobe... same with celts, they traded for garnett and Allen( draft picks and assets were traded) but pierce was also finals MVP..

Detroit.... Isiah and Dumars

spurs: Duncan

heat: Wade

bulls: MJ

rockets: Hakeem

Mavs: dirk

As you can see they didn't trade all of their young talent and assets to get these guys.. not at all.. doesn't that tell you something?

now these teams have added free agents but again, the core of their team came through draft, or draft day trades... History doesn't show at all you can trade your way to a championship, especially if no foundation whatsoever exists previously...

which is why you seem to get the old and tired defense that.. He doesn't have anyone to play with? really, well then why force a trade? sign as a free agent.. no matter how you look at things, it becomes hard to defend...

Yeah it tells me that you have to be fortunate enought to land a future hall of famer in the draft. We had it with Ewing but for whatever reason couldn't get him a "robin" until his best days were behind him. We haven't come close to drafting a "franchise player" after Ewing. Then again how many have?

Heck, let's go all the way back to the 1990 NBA draft and look at the HOF players that were drafted that a team could build around as in the MJ's, Bird's, Magic of the world.

1990 - Gary Payton
1991 - None
1992 - SHAQ & Alonzo Mourning
1993 - Chris Webber
1994 - Kidd, Grant Hill
1995 - Kevin Garnett
1996 - Iverson, Ray Allen, Kobe, Nash
1997 - Tim Duncan
1998 - Paul Pierce, Dirk
1999 - None
2000 - None
2001 - Tony Parker (Drafted #28)
2002 - Yao Ming, Amare
2003 - Lebron, Wade, Melo, Bosh
2004 - Dwight Howard
2005 - Chris Paul, Deron Williams?
2006 - Brandon Roy, Rajon Rondo
2007 - Kevin Durant
2008 - Rose, Westbrook, Love
2009 - Griffin, Harden, Steph Curry,
2010 - None
2011 - Kyrie Irving
2012 - Damian Lillard

I have a list of 34 players apanning 23 years. Of couse I have the ability to go back in time and look at lists of hundreds of players. Should you do the same you will come acorss drafts and say to yourself "Who the heck was this guy?"

What seems to be a constant is starting with a HOF player and adding other HOF players to that team. Grant Hill was amazing before his injuries and would have gone down as one of the best to ever play. Roy was on his way until his injury, YAO with his foot problems, etc. Taking it a step further, over the course of the last 23 years how many of the above players have had a HOF career and have won the hardware as the undusputed MAN for the team that drafted him?

Kobe
Duncan
Dirk

So what exactly is the blue print that continues to work time after time?

Again, the book is still open on half of these guys.. I stated not everyone will win a ring, but sustained winning and excellence means a lot.. don't you think? You are asking for a blueprint... I am telling you what has worked over the years.... don't you agree that when you drive your car, obeying speed limits, stopping at red lights and not texting while driving usually results in a safe driving experience? it doesn't mean some jerk off may run a red light or drive drunk or maybe even posting on the UK forum while driving and crashes into you? does that mean you should stop driving responsibly? NO!! but more times than not, a certain behavior will lead to good results..

The same applies here.. build through the draft, make smart trades, make good signings, ususally that leads to tangible results..

And no, you never know who is going to be a HOF player...so to say starting with a HOF player and adding other HOF players is the recipe then I dissagree... Dirk didn't have a HOF player with him, it it certainly wasn't clear that dirk was a HOF player, otherwise the bucks don't make the Draft day trade with the maverics, which sent dirk out west for Robert Traylor.. You consider billups and Rip Hamilton HOF players?

Not every draft is perfect, but I rather have that chance to determine my future and the point is, the point being made is, you either build with your picks, or if you trade assets better make sure you are making the right trade.... that is the point.. so to make it seem as if all of this is just pot luck is far from the truth.... and the teams that tend to do well, don't squander assets.. now if you think the knicks did the right thing.. well then great.. Long term, heck even short term I don't agree. I think we set ourselves back. only time will tell, but again, it is mind boggling how anyone can have such contempt for buidling through the draft, be it by daft day trades, or developing your own players...

23 years how many of the above players have had a HOF career and have won the hardware as the undusputed MAN for the team that drafted him?

funny you ask that, and then add "undisputed" lol... Ok.. pierce, duncan, dirk, wade, oh and add kobe, a host of them have been to the finals or ECF a few times... not bad at all.. not bad....

And honestly why limit to the team that drafted them. I have no problem trading for the right player.. I just don't think we did... plain and simple.. but here is the key, how many of those player won rings or been to finals on teams they didn't start with, but joined great players that were already drafted by the team they joined.. the fact still remains... build through the draft..

Garnett and Allen joined a great player in pierce, who was drafted by boston.. and won..

lebron an elite of the elite players joined wade who was drafted by the heat(and he previously won) and got a ring.

gary payton and alonzo joined the heat and wade and won

again, no matter how you chop it up, it comes back to that draft.. funny how that happens...

the rest of the players still have a lot of their careers left... not sure why you posted them..

Of course we didn't know that Dirk was going to be a hall of famer but that's what makes building a team through the draft so dificult. Dirk didn't have a hall of fame player with him? Yeah he did....Jason Kidd.

Build through the draft? The majority of players come into the league via the draft. With the being the case one could argue that all teams build through the draft. Worked will for Cleveland losing Lebron to Miami. Worked well for Toronto losing Bosh to the Heat. Worked well for the Wolves having to trade Garnett to the Celtics. Worked well for the Magic trading SHAQ to the Lakers. Worked well for the Magic again trading Howard to the Lakers. The Hornets trading CP3, etc.

I'm not arguing with anything you've stated regarding making smart trades, drafting good players, etc. but at the end of the day it's not an easy thing to do. If it were there would be more than 8 teams over the last 24 years that would have won it all. 8 teams have gotten it right and 22 have gotten it wrong over the last 24 years.

Look at the pool of difference making players in the league....there aren't many. You may feel that we didn't make the right move but the jury is still out.

As much as putting together a championship team takes skill it also takes some luck. Derek Jeter should have been drafted by the Astros. He wasn't and the rest is history.

that is true, but have you seen this type of move ever work? and if not, don't you think it was a big risk forw what we gave up... and considering the age and history of the player acquired? honestly had this been wade or lebron, you wouldn't be getting much of an argument...

The risk was really with Amare, but over time the trade has grown on me for a few reasons. Not because its Him or Gallo/Wilson becaues I still believe knicks make a move for someone else Harden, Dwight, Deron, CP3 or on a lessor level Rudy Gay.

But Given that Amare was damaged goods Melo is the type of player for this franchise. Thats not a 100% endorsement but this is what the knicks wanted and his star shines bright.

I don't feel this is a team of destiny with a strong contender status.

If Im wrong, they'll make me very happy! If not, I'm ok too!

ONe season at a time. This has been a great season so far. Its may and they still playing!!!

Pick a side goddamit!

Not how it works, I don't hate on others just to elevate my cause, and if a team exceeds my expectations I have a good time with it.

I love the knicks, but don't love this roster. Didn't say I dislike, I accept them for what they are and the business decision that goes with it. I have not jumped off the bandwagin in 40 years. I don't wear another mans jersey on my back, and I think Spike Lee is an ass who thinks he is on the team.

Nalod wrote:Miami fans are really annoying! The botox laden warn out blond cougars are a joke!

Its wrong, but the fans are the ones paying the salary. Players must be coached to tune it out and warned that its the big No-No!!!!

Mob mentality at its worst!