Rookie wrote:

VDesai wrote:In some ways it ways a tale of 2 seasons.

For the first few months of the year we were running a top 3 NBA offense, breaking nearly every team record, with multiple games over 30 assists.

Then a few things happen:
-Deuce/KAT/Josh all develop "runner's/jumper's" knee at various points which clearly effect their level of play as all were having "career" type seasons before
-KAT jams his thumb and it clearly effects his 3 pt shot, his volume of 3's dips
-Strategically teams put Wings on KAT and Centers on Josh. A couple important things happen.
-KAT shies away from shooting 3s and making plays from the top and starts getting tunnel vision on drives with the smaller player on him.
-Josh at some point loses confidence on his 3 pt shooting (which starts the year well) and becomes less aggressive as a playmaker as he plays through his knee injury, causing too much offensive hesitation and allowing teams to let their 5's roam against him.
-As we start to get into close/uninspired games against bad teams, Jalen puts his cape on late in games and begins a streak of dominating down the stretch to save us late in games. The more this occurs, the more we lean back into iso-Jalen offense.

There are a number of coaching failures above.

-Clearly the Knicks needed more injury management, especially with KAT and Hart who played a lot of games at less than 100% with an overuse injury. These injuries don't get better by playing 40 mpg. Unfortunately the Knicks bench was light and Thibs didn't trust anyone to come in, but its chicken or egg, players can't seize a role without an opportunity.
-Thibs never developed a proper counter to the KAT/Josh conundrum where KAT's defender took Josh and Josh's defender took KAT. When we were getting 30+ assist games, its because BOTH of those guys were playmaking. After the NBA adjusted, it reduced the playmaking and changed the nature of the offense. What would have been a counter? The simple answer is mixing up the lineups more so teams couldn't make the same defensive adjustment, however very little changed in terms of positioning/sets.
-Would Deuce in the SL have made a difference? Knicks Social Media was dominated by the "5 shooter theory." I'm not entirely sure that is the answer- simply swapping Deuce for Hart does improve shooting and shooting gravity, but it does hurt a lineup that is low on rebounding and secondary playmaking. However there was room to try these lineups more - if you have what amounts to 6 players you trust, why was Deuce's minutes load as low as it was? After he returned from injury, he should have occupied a 6th starter role. However, given how much Thibs values size, he never seemed to want to play Deuce next to Brunson, which severely limited his minutes opportunity
-Personally, I think the 5 good shooters theory might be a bit overstated. Its not necessarily 5 shooters, but the ability to pose 5 legitimate threats with the ball on the perimeter. Most NBA lineups sport a worse shooter than Josh Hart as their 5th man. Josh can be a passable shooter if he's willing and a pretty good offensive playmaker (albeit one prone to a ghastly passing turnover due to his aggressiveness). However I think there's a few things that were overlooked with our "linueps."
-Bridges occupied the spot of a player who was putting up over 10 3's a game in the SL the prior year. He not only shot half that much, he shot it pretty poorly overall. And he was out there 40 minutes per game. On defense his main role was defending the ballhandler. So instead of Deuce replacing Hart, maybe it should have been Deuce playing more for Bridges. It would have been a more "like for like" role switch, as both played a similar role on defense and Deuce actually brings more gravity shooting the ball on offense. Thibs didn't want to lose Hart for Deuce, because Deuce doesn't do a lot of things that Hart does. While Bridges is taller than Deuce, Deuce does a lot of things Bridges does - and more in some ways, especially since out there with the starters. Bridges strength in ISO/mid range was negated by playing with KAT/Brunson. Staggering Bridges more with the 2nd unit would have given him more opportunities.
-Brunson being the primary ballhandler and the only ballhandler made it so that he rarely got catch and shoot and off-ball scoring opportunities. Given his intelligence/low-turnovers, he absolutely should be the PG, however given his scoring, you can maximize him and reduce some of his energy load by playing him with a secondary playmaker capable of taking some of the ballhandling off his plate. Josh did some of that, but that isn't his primary strength. Brunson is maybe our best shooter or at least 2nd best - I think if he got more open catch and shoots it would make it easier on his scoring load and make the offense a bit more free flowing. However you have to be willing to play another "PG-like" player with him to do this.

In conclusion, I think Thibs started the year with good intentions. Injuries, lack of depth forced him to old habits. Being a stubborn type, he overlooked the flaws of what he was doing and kept leaning back to what he knew. BTW, "what he knew," still won them a lot of games and got them pretty fair. Over the last 20 years, not many coaches have consistently won more in the NBA than Thibs. His style does win games. It's not pretty, and it hasn't won a championship. That doesn't mean it can't work. However I don't think there's anyone who felt that this roster was fully maximized. The question was, would a 2nd crack at this have gotten Thibs to go back to what worked early in the year, or was he going further down the road of playing "his style" without the right roster to match it. I think Leon & co. felt that they had to make the change to get this roster playing its best.

Look at how easily the OKC coach figured out how to neutralize Indiana. It’s almost embarrassing. Coaching matters

You think we have the same defensive talent on our team ? The same PG?
This is the kind of blanket statement that gives me doubt about guys gripes against Thibs.
Can you tell me what changes were made in second game? OLC FG % in first game was 39%. Second game 49%. Went mostly double PnR sets as they did in first game. Pacers starting wings shot a combined 23% from three. With 9 wide open attempts. You think maybe that had something to do with it?

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

fishmike wrote:I have said for a long time Thibs is not going anywhere unless he underperforms (first round exit) or looses the locker room.

Now I am starting to think I was right all along. There is no way this is one player. This has to be a significant group at the top of the roster who clearly said "can we move on from this guy."

There is simply no other explanation. Thibs was Leon's guy. He's been here 5 years and aside from the Kemba/Fournier year its been all up in like every area. His 3 year extension kicks in next year. This was clear a situation Leon thought was not fixable and had to swiftly move on.

Agree. The closest thing we have to a coach right now is still " Mavs are expected to deny Kidd talks with the Knicks" Which tells me the firing was done without an established plan. So the pieces fit

I think Rose wants Kidd but if the Mavs don’t cooperate he will go either Bryant or Malone

The timing of the firing points to Rose wanting someone that was in consideration for another job.

Timing is perhaps just the end of the Knicks series and season too.

So a Dolan temper tantrum because they did not win?

HofstraBBall wrote:

Rookie wrote:

VDesai wrote:In some ways it ways a tale of 2 seasons.

For the first few months of the year we were running a top 3 NBA offense, breaking nearly every team record, with multiple games over 30 assists.

Then a few things happen:
-Deuce/KAT/Josh all develop "runner's/jumper's" knee at various points which clearly effect their level of play as all were having "career" type seasons before
-KAT jams his thumb and it clearly effects his 3 pt shot, his volume of 3's dips
-Strategically teams put Wings on KAT and Centers on Josh. A couple important things happen.
-KAT shies away from shooting 3s and making plays from the top and starts getting tunnel vision on drives with the smaller player on him.
-Josh at some point loses confidence on his 3 pt shooting (which starts the year well) and becomes less aggressive as a playmaker as he plays through his knee injury, causing too much offensive hesitation and allowing teams to let their 5's roam against him.
-As we start to get into close/uninspired games against bad teams, Jalen puts his cape on late in games and begins a streak of dominating down the stretch to save us late in games. The more this occurs, the more we lean back into iso-Jalen offense.

There are a number of coaching failures above.

-Clearly the Knicks needed more injury management, especially with KAT and Hart who played a lot of games at less than 100% with an overuse injury. These injuries don't get better by playing 40 mpg. Unfortunately the Knicks bench was light and Thibs didn't trust anyone to come in, but its chicken or egg, players can't seize a role without an opportunity.
-Thibs never developed a proper counter to the KAT/Josh conundrum where KAT's defender took Josh and Josh's defender took KAT. When we were getting 30+ assist games, its because BOTH of those guys were playmaking. After the NBA adjusted, it reduced the playmaking and changed the nature of the offense. What would have been a counter? The simple answer is mixing up the lineups more so teams couldn't make the same defensive adjustment, however very little changed in terms of positioning/sets.
-Would Deuce in the SL have made a difference? Knicks Social Media was dominated by the "5 shooter theory." I'm not entirely sure that is the answer- simply swapping Deuce for Hart does improve shooting and shooting gravity, but it does hurt a lineup that is low on rebounding and secondary playmaking. However there was room to try these lineups more - if you have what amounts to 6 players you trust, why was Deuce's minutes load as low as it was? After he returned from injury, he should have occupied a 6th starter role. However, given how much Thibs values size, he never seemed to want to play Deuce next to Brunson, which severely limited his minutes opportunity
-Personally, I think the 5 good shooters theory might be a bit overstated. Its not necessarily 5 shooters, but the ability to pose 5 legitimate threats with the ball on the perimeter. Most NBA lineups sport a worse shooter than Josh Hart as their 5th man. Josh can be a passable shooter if he's willing and a pretty good offensive playmaker (albeit one prone to a ghastly passing turnover due to his aggressiveness). However I think there's a few things that were overlooked with our "linueps."
-Bridges occupied the spot of a player who was putting up over 10 3's a game in the SL the prior year. He not only shot half that much, he shot it pretty poorly overall. And he was out there 40 minutes per game. On defense his main role was defending the ballhandler. So instead of Deuce replacing Hart, maybe it should have been Deuce playing more for Bridges. It would have been a more "like for like" role switch, as both played a similar role on defense and Deuce actually brings more gravity shooting the ball on offense. Thibs didn't want to lose Hart for Deuce, because Deuce doesn't do a lot of things that Hart does. While Bridges is taller than Deuce, Deuce does a lot of things Bridges does - and more in some ways, especially since out there with the starters. Bridges strength in ISO/mid range was negated by playing with KAT/Brunson. Staggering Bridges more with the 2nd unit would have given him more opportunities.
-Brunson being the primary ballhandler and the only ballhandler made it so that he rarely got catch and shoot and off-ball scoring opportunities. Given his intelligence/low-turnovers, he absolutely should be the PG, however given his scoring, you can maximize him and reduce some of his energy load by playing him with a secondary playmaker capable of taking some of the ballhandling off his plate. Josh did some of that, but that isn't his primary strength. Brunson is maybe our best shooter or at least 2nd best - I think if he got more open catch and shoots it would make it easier on his scoring load and make the offense a bit more free flowing. However you have to be willing to play another "PG-like" player with him to do this.

In conclusion, I think Thibs started the year with good intentions. Injuries, lack of depth forced him to old habits. Being a stubborn type, he overlooked the flaws of what he was doing and kept leaning back to what he knew. BTW, "what he knew," still won them a lot of games and got them pretty fair. Over the last 20 years, not many coaches have consistently won more in the NBA than Thibs. His style does win games. It's not pretty, and it hasn't won a championship. That doesn't mean it can't work. However I don't think there's anyone who felt that this roster was fully maximized. The question was, would a 2nd crack at this have gotten Thibs to go back to what worked early in the year, or was he going further down the road of playing "his style" without the right roster to match it. I think Leon & co. felt that they had to make the change to get this roster playing its best.

Look at how easily the OKC coach figured out how to neutralize Indiana. It’s almost embarrassing. Coaching matters

You think we have the same defensive talent on our team ? The same PG?
This is the kind of blanket statement that gives me doubt about guys gripes against Thibs.
Can you tell me what changes were made in second game? OLC FG % in first game was 39%. Second game 49%. Went mostly double PnR sets as they did in first game. Pacers starting wings shot a combined 23% from three. With 9 wide open attempts. You think maybe that had something to do with it?

You'd have to look pretty far and hard to find anybody who would say that Thibs isn't a good coach. You wouldn't have to look very hard to find someone that would say that Thibs is to stubborn to makes changes or adjustments. Thibs is a great coach but it does appear that his coaching style has a ceiling. The video breaking down the adjustments that OKC made in game 2 is out there somewhere. I didn't make it up on my own, I'm not that smart. You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with someone who breaks down game film for a living. If I could remember where I saw it I would post it

Rookie wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Rookie wrote:

VDesai wrote:In some ways it ways a tale of 2 seasons.

For the first few months of the year we were running a top 3 NBA offense, breaking nearly every team record, with multiple games over 30 assists.

Then a few things happen:
-Deuce/KAT/Josh all develop "runner's/jumper's" knee at various points which clearly effect their level of play as all were having "career" type seasons before
-KAT jams his thumb and it clearly effects his 3 pt shot, his volume of 3's dips
-Strategically teams put Wings on KAT and Centers on Josh. A couple important things happen.
-KAT shies away from shooting 3s and making plays from the top and starts getting tunnel vision on drives with the smaller player on him.
-Josh at some point loses confidence on his 3 pt shooting (which starts the year well) and becomes less aggressive as a playmaker as he plays through his knee injury, causing too much offensive hesitation and allowing teams to let their 5's roam against him.
-As we start to get into close/uninspired games against bad teams, Jalen puts his cape on late in games and begins a streak of dominating down the stretch to save us late in games. The more this occurs, the more we lean back into iso-Jalen offense.

There are a number of coaching failures above.

-Clearly the Knicks needed more injury management, especially with KAT and Hart who played a lot of games at less than 100% with an overuse injury. These injuries don't get better by playing 40 mpg. Unfortunately the Knicks bench was light and Thibs didn't trust anyone to come in, but its chicken or egg, players can't seize a role without an opportunity.
-Thibs never developed a proper counter to the KAT/Josh conundrum where KAT's defender took Josh and Josh's defender took KAT. When we were getting 30+ assist games, its because BOTH of those guys were playmaking. After the NBA adjusted, it reduced the playmaking and changed the nature of the offense. What would have been a counter? The simple answer is mixing up the lineups more so teams couldn't make the same defensive adjustment, however very little changed in terms of positioning/sets.
-Would Deuce in the SL have made a difference? Knicks Social Media was dominated by the "5 shooter theory." I'm not entirely sure that is the answer- simply swapping Deuce for Hart does improve shooting and shooting gravity, but it does hurt a lineup that is low on rebounding and secondary playmaking. However there was room to try these lineups more - if you have what amounts to 6 players you trust, why was Deuce's minutes load as low as it was? After he returned from injury, he should have occupied a 6th starter role. However, given how much Thibs values size, he never seemed to want to play Deuce next to Brunson, which severely limited his minutes opportunity
-Personally, I think the 5 good shooters theory might be a bit overstated. Its not necessarily 5 shooters, but the ability to pose 5 legitimate threats with the ball on the perimeter. Most NBA lineups sport a worse shooter than Josh Hart as their 5th man. Josh can be a passable shooter if he's willing and a pretty good offensive playmaker (albeit one prone to a ghastly passing turnover due to his aggressiveness). However I think there's a few things that were overlooked with our "linueps."
-Bridges occupied the spot of a player who was putting up over 10 3's a game in the SL the prior year. He not only shot half that much, he shot it pretty poorly overall. And he was out there 40 minutes per game. On defense his main role was defending the ballhandler. So instead of Deuce replacing Hart, maybe it should have been Deuce playing more for Bridges. It would have been a more "like for like" role switch, as both played a similar role on defense and Deuce actually brings more gravity shooting the ball on offense. Thibs didn't want to lose Hart for Deuce, because Deuce doesn't do a lot of things that Hart does. While Bridges is taller than Deuce, Deuce does a lot of things Bridges does - and more in some ways, especially since out there with the starters. Bridges strength in ISO/mid range was negated by playing with KAT/Brunson. Staggering Bridges more with the 2nd unit would have given him more opportunities.
-Brunson being the primary ballhandler and the only ballhandler made it so that he rarely got catch and shoot and off-ball scoring opportunities. Given his intelligence/low-turnovers, he absolutely should be the PG, however given his scoring, you can maximize him and reduce some of his energy load by playing him with a secondary playmaker capable of taking some of the ballhandling off his plate. Josh did some of that, but that isn't his primary strength. Brunson is maybe our best shooter or at least 2nd best - I think if he got more open catch and shoots it would make it easier on his scoring load and make the offense a bit more free flowing. However you have to be willing to play another "PG-like" player with him to do this.

In conclusion, I think Thibs started the year with good intentions. Injuries, lack of depth forced him to old habits. Being a stubborn type, he overlooked the flaws of what he was doing and kept leaning back to what he knew. BTW, "what he knew," still won them a lot of games and got them pretty fair. Over the last 20 years, not many coaches have consistently won more in the NBA than Thibs. His style does win games. It's not pretty, and it hasn't won a championship. That doesn't mean it can't work. However I don't think there's anyone who felt that this roster was fully maximized. The question was, would a 2nd crack at this have gotten Thibs to go back to what worked early in the year, or was he going further down the road of playing "his style" without the right roster to match it. I think Leon & co. felt that they had to make the change to get this roster playing its best.

Look at how easily the OKC coach figured out how to neutralize Indiana. It’s almost embarrassing. Coaching matters

You think we have the same defensive talent on our team ? The same PG?
This is the kind of blanket statement that gives me doubt about guys gripes against Thibs.
Can you tell me what changes were made in second game? OLC FG % in first game was 39%. Second game 49%. Went mostly double PnR sets as they did in first game. Pacers starting wings shot a combined 23% from three. With 9 wide open attempts. You think maybe that had something to do with it?

You'd have to look pretty far and hard to find anybody who would say that Thibs isn't a good coach. You wouldn't have to look very hard to find someone that would say that Thibs is to stubborn to makes changes or adjustments. Thibs is a great coach but it does appear that his coaching style has a ceiling. The video breaking down the adjustments that OKC made in game 2 is out there somewhere. I didn't make it up on my own, I'm not that smart. You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with someone who breaks down game film for a living. If I could remember where I saw it I would post it

Fact is, coaches make slight adjustments from game to game. Thibs did as well. Beat the reigning champs doing so. Point was, that the most important thing is for players to execute and play well. I am sure you have seen the stats for unforced turnovers we committed. As well as inconsistent shooting and most importantly, bad FT shooting during loses.

At the end of the day, Thibs is no longer our coach. We may have different opinions on Thibs being the reason we did not go any further. Hoping the next coach and new additions needed, gets us there eventually . We can both agree that’s what we both want.

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martin wrote:

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Knicks ready to call Lenny Wilkens yet?

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EwingsGlass wrote:The lack of a plan when they fired Thibs is disturbing. Currently feela like they are bargain basement shopping for a coach. Kind of dulls the aire of invincibility of the front office when they fire Thibs and the only reports we get are of teams turning them down for a conversation. Like Leon Rose is wandering the halls of the high school asking random girls to go to prom. Pretty shoddy planning here.

Sounds like most of their top choices, head coaches, are either happily retired, under contract, or not interested. Might not have been anticipated now that the Knicks are relevant again.

Plan B should be to find the best assistant available if the FO strikes out on their top choices.

Borrego has been mentioned, wonder if they plan on speaking to him?