tkf wrote:

Markji wrote:

tkf wrote:

Markji wrote:TKF - the box is too big and I have to work. Just one point....your"but trying to play the "euros are better team players card" is a bit desperate, come on now." You dismiss a very important point without any validation. I feel u should at least accept it. Because how else did the US drream teams lose to Euro teams with players from just 1 country. Some didn't even have an NBA player while we had all-stars.

Facing increased competition, the USA failed to win a medal at the 2002 FIBA World Championship, finishing sixth. The 2004 Summer Olympic team lost three games on its way to a bronze medal, a record that represented more losses in a single year than the country's Olympic teams had suffered in all previous Olympiads combined.

Determined to put an end to these failures, USA Basketball initiated a long-term project aimed at creating better, more cohesive teams. The USA won its first seven games at the 2006 FIBA World Championship in Japan before losing against Greece in the semi-finals, ending the competition with the bronze medal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_men's_national_basketball_team

How the heck did we lose to Greece. How did we come in 6th in 2002? The Euro play solid basketball. They aren't as fast; not as athletic; can't jump as high; etc, but they are well coached and play a solid game of BB. This is just one point, not the main point to sway an argument; but it gives us a plus. And BTW, your comment about Kidd and Prigs last year - We played very well and better team ball when Kidd was able to play the first few months. After that he was physically finished.

You're too hyped up on "Iso" play. Every teeam has star players who take more shots than the others.

are you kidding me, are you going to use an exception to prove our point? how come we won gold in 2012? 2008? 2000? 1996? 1992? and the list goes on.. remember we started sending pro playes in what, the 90's? only when we don't send close to our best do we struggle.. the last time I remember losing gold was in 2004, and wasn't carmelo on that team? just asking.. anyway..

You're too hyped up on "Iso" play. Every teeam has star players who take more shots than the others.

actually I am not, I am hyped up against.. sure every team has star players who take more shots than others.... and usually the teams that win have star players that are efficient, so taking more of the shots is a good thing..

the problem.. we have a guy who thinks he is as star player and takes a lion share of the shots and is not that efficient at all...

OK - so to say it succinctly you don't like Melo's game when he forces his shot. He gets double-teamed a lot and should pass out of that to the open man. I get it. I agree with that.

However, we can provide Melo with a mismatch inside and then he is a better scorer. Perhaps Bargs will help spread the floor.And we have 3 point guards who can pass and run an offense. None are all-stars but all 3 are solid.

Re: US Olympic teams. - with our talent we should never have lost. It is only recently that the European players as a group, have improved talent-wise to have so many play in the NBA. But individual talent-wise, the US dominates.

I will say this, carmelo does not get double teamed that much, in the pacers series, paul george didn't have help, yet carmelo was guarded very well and did force up shots, and everytime he missed he seemed to run back holding his shoulder.. I was like, really dude? if your shoulder hurts, stop taking 30 shots?

I don't like his style, the way he plays, his selfishness, mindset, the way he approaches the game, his face!! nothing.. so yea, it pisses me off he is on this team, the guy sabotages this teams championship aspirations just by being on it... fools gold man.. I see right through it..

However, we can provide Melo with a mismatch inside and then he is a better scorer. Perhaps Bargs will help spread the floor.And we have 3 point guards who can pass and run an offense. None are all-stars but all 3 are solid.

Bargnani spreading the floor is just another overrated wishful attempt to spin the trade.. we had the best 3 point shooter in the league in novak.. wasn't that his job? when the pacers took that away, when the heat took that away, then novak was considered useless... what i suspect is that the pacers, bulls and heat will also chase three point shooters off the line... yea, yea, now you are going to tell me how great bargnani is at putting the ball on the floor.. right? well really he isn't.. if he is putting the ball on the floor, then how does that help the mismatch with carmelo as you put it? do you really want barngnani dribbling? how well did that work in toronto..

in the end, we got the wrong players, plain and simple.. can't fit square pegs in round holes...

I do agree with you regarding Novak. I liked him for what he did which was to shoot 3 pointers. People got on him because he "only" shot 42.5% last year, down from 47% the yr before. But he was a role player and knew his role. 42.5% translates to 63.75% from 2 point range, so Novak was still quite effective. Bargnani is a better all round offensive player; doesn't defend well; doesn't rebound that well but rebounds much, much better than Novak. However, by Novak standing in the corner and demanding a player to cover him, he did help to open up the middle.

Being a Knicks fan, what I like to do is give the team and the players the benefit of the doubt. Look at the positives more than the negatives and give everyone a chance to prove themselves before ripping into them. It provides for a much more enjoyable off-season.

Markji wrote:

tkf wrote:

Markji wrote:

tkf wrote:

Markji wrote:TKF - the box is too big and I have to work. Just one point....your"but trying to play the "euros are better team players card" is a bit desperate, come on now." You dismiss a very important point without any validation. I feel u should at least accept it. Because how else did the US drream teams lose to Euro teams with players from just 1 country. Some didn't even have an NBA player while we had all-stars.

Facing increased competition, the USA failed to win a medal at the 2002 FIBA World Championship, finishing sixth. The 2004 Summer Olympic team lost three games on its way to a bronze medal, a record that represented more losses in a single year than the country's Olympic teams had suffered in all previous Olympiads combined.

Determined to put an end to these failures, USA Basketball initiated a long-term project aimed at creating better, more cohesive teams. The USA won its first seven games at the 2006 FIBA World Championship in Japan before losing against Greece in the semi-finals, ending the competition with the bronze medal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_men's_national_basketball_team

How the heck did we lose to Greece. How did we come in 6th in 2002? The Euro play solid basketball. They aren't as fast; not as athletic; can't jump as high; etc, but they are well coached and play a solid game of BB. This is just one point, not the main point to sway an argument; but it gives us a plus. And BTW, your comment about Kidd and Prigs last year - We played very well and better team ball when Kidd was able to play the first few months. After that he was physically finished.

You're too hyped up on "Iso" play. Every teeam has star players who take more shots than the others.

are you kidding me, are you going to use an exception to prove our point? how come we won gold in 2012? 2008? 2000? 1996? 1992? and the list goes on.. remember we started sending pro playes in what, the 90's? only when we don't send close to our best do we struggle.. the last time I remember losing gold was in 2004, and wasn't carmelo on that team? just asking.. anyway..

You're too hyped up on "Iso" play. Every teeam has star players who take more shots than the others.

actually I am not, I am hyped up against.. sure every team has star players who take more shots than others.... and usually the teams that win have star players that are efficient, so taking more of the shots is a good thing..

the problem.. we have a guy who thinks he is as star player and takes a lion share of the shots and is not that efficient at all...

OK - so to say it succinctly you don't like Melo's game when he forces his shot. He gets double-teamed a lot and should pass out of that to the open man. I get it. I agree with that.

However, we can provide Melo with a mismatch inside and then he is a better scorer. Perhaps Bargs will help spread the floor.And we have 3 point guards who can pass and run an offense. None are all-stars but all 3 are solid.

Re: US Olympic teams. - with our talent we should never have lost. It is only recently that the European players as a group, have improved talent-wise to have so many play in the NBA. But individual talent-wise, the US dominates.

I will say this, carmelo does not get double teamed that much, in the pacers series, paul george didn't have help, yet carmelo was guarded very well and did force up shots, and everytime he missed he seemed to run back holding his shoulder.. I was like, really dude? if your shoulder hurts, stop taking 30 shots?

I don't like his style, the way he plays, his selfishness, mindset, the way he approaches the game, his face!! nothing.. so yea, it pisses me off he is on this team, the guy sabotages this teams championship aspirations just by being on it... fools gold man.. I see right through it..

However, we can provide Melo with a mismatch inside and then he is a better scorer. Perhaps Bargs will help spread the floor.And we have 3 point guards who can pass and run an offense. None are all-stars but all 3 are solid.

Bargnani spreading the floor is just another overrated wishful attempt to spin the trade.. we had the best 3 point shooter in the league in novak.. wasn't that his job? when the pacers took that away, when the heat took that away, then novak was considered useless... what i suspect is that the pacers, bulls and heat will also chase three point shooters off the line... yea, yea, now you are going to tell me how great bargnani is at putting the ball on the floor.. right? well really he isn't.. if he is putting the ball on the floor, then how does that help the mismatch with carmelo as you put it? do you really want barngnani dribbling? how well did that work in toronto..

in the end, we got the wrong players, plain and simple.. can't fit square pegs in round holes...

So you don't like Melo or want him on the team. However, Melo is on the team and so we, and really Woody and Grunny have to figure out how to make it work with Mello. Give me 3 things you would implement. I know your first and second are still to trade Melo. So what is your third way to make the Knicks winners. By that I mean at least to the Eastern Conf Championship and preferably to the finals?

I do agree with you regarding Novak. I liked him for what he did which was to shoot 3 pointers. People got on him because he "only" shot 42.5% last year, down from 47% the yr before. But he was a role player and knew his role. 42.5% translates to 63.75% from 2 point range, so Novak was still quite effective. Bargnani is a better all round offensive player; doesn't defend well; doesn't rebound that well but rebounds much, much better than Novak. However, by Novak standing in the corner and demanding a player to cover him, he did help to open up the middle.

Being a Knicks fan, what I like to do is give the team and the players the benefit of the doubt. Look at the positives more than the negatives and give everyone a chance to prove themselves before ripping into them. It provides for a much more enjoyable off-season.

are you implying that carmelo anthony is uncoachable?

yellowboy90 wrote:It's not about the shooting % of Novak it's about him not being able to get his shot off in the playoffs. So his pretty little TS and FG % stays the same but his attempts and effectiveness goes way down. Also, look where his 3s come from then where Bargs come from. Most of Novak's 3s come of assists from the corner. Bargs rarely shot from the easier spots on the floor to shoot 3s. So most of Novak and Cope 3s came from the corner and most of Bargs 3s came above the break so what if Bargs get more opportunities at the corner 3? Maybe he just sucks at them or maybe he shoots a highher volume and %.

I agree that Novak's very good shooting pct had absolutely no impact last season on the team's fortunes. He was in no way shape or form the game changer he had been the previous season. I expected him to pick up his game as the season went on but that never happened. I can count on one hand the number of times he moved inside the arc for a 2, as if Novak would get paid less if he did.

Novak was getting the freeze very early on in the season, got passed up for open jumpers too many times, but that doesn't explain the rest of the season. At least we now have a 3 pt shooter who can drain a 3 with someone in his face next season. It was the same problem we had with Shawne Williams.

dk7th wrote:

Markji wrote:

tkf wrote:

Markji wrote:

tkf wrote:

Markji wrote:TKF - the box is too big and I have to work. Just one point....your"but trying to play the "euros are better team players card" is a bit desperate, come on now." You dismiss a very important point without any validation. I feel u should at least accept it. Because how else did the US drream teams lose to Euro teams with players from just 1 country. Some didn't even have an NBA player while we had all-stars.

Facing increased competition, the USA failed to win a medal at the 2002 FIBA World Championship, finishing sixth. The 2004 Summer Olympic team lost three games on its way to a bronze medal, a record that represented more losses in a single year than the country's Olympic teams had suffered in all previous Olympiads combined.

Determined to put an end to these failures, USA Basketball initiated a long-term project aimed at creating better, more cohesive teams. The USA won its first seven games at the 2006 FIBA World Championship in Japan before losing against Greece in the semi-finals, ending the competition with the bronze medal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_men's_national_basketball_team

How the heck did we lose to Greece. How did we come in 6th in 2002? The Euro play solid basketball. They aren't as fast; not as athletic; can't jump as high; etc, but they are well coached and play a solid game of BB. This is just one point, not the main point to sway an argument; but it gives us a plus. And BTW, your comment about Kidd and Prigs last year - We played very well and better team ball when Kidd was able to play the first few months. After that he was physically finished.

You're too hyped up on "Iso" play. Every teeam has star players who take more shots than the others.

are you kidding me, are you going to use an exception to prove our point? how come we won gold in 2012? 2008? 2000? 1996? 1992? and the list goes on.. remember we started sending pro playes in what, the 90's? only when we don't send close to our best do we struggle.. the last time I remember losing gold was in 2004, and wasn't carmelo on that team? just asking.. anyway..

You're too hyped up on "Iso" play. Every teeam has star players who take more shots than the others.

actually I am not, I am hyped up against.. sure every team has star players who take more shots than others.... and usually the teams that win have star players that are efficient, so taking more of the shots is a good thing..

the problem.. we have a guy who thinks he is as star player and takes a lion share of the shots and is not that efficient at all...

OK - so to say it succinctly you don't like Melo's game when he forces his shot. He gets double-teamed a lot and should pass out of that to the open man. I get it. I agree with that.

However, we can provide Melo with a mismatch inside and then he is a better scorer. Perhaps Bargs will help spread the floor.And we have 3 point guards who can pass and run an offense. None are all-stars but all 3 are solid.

Re: US Olympic teams. - with our talent we should never have lost. It is only recently that the European players as a group, have improved talent-wise to have so many play in the NBA. But individual talent-wise, the US dominates.

I will say this, carmelo does not get double teamed that much, in the pacers series, paul george didn't have help, yet carmelo was guarded very well and did force up shots, and everytime he missed he seemed to run back holding his shoulder.. I was like, really dude? if your shoulder hurts, stop taking 30 shots?

I don't like his style, the way he plays, his selfishness, mindset, the way he approaches the game, his face!! nothing.. so yea, it pisses me off he is on this team, the guy sabotages this teams championship aspirations just by being on it... fools gold man.. I see right through it..

However, we can provide Melo with a mismatch inside and then he is a better scorer. Perhaps Bargs will help spread the floor.And we have 3 point guards who can pass and run an offense. None are all-stars but all 3 are solid.

Bargnani spreading the floor is just another overrated wishful attempt to spin the trade.. we had the best 3 point shooter in the league in novak.. wasn't that his job? when the pacers took that away, when the heat took that away, then novak was considered useless... what i suspect is that the pacers, bulls and heat will also chase three point shooters off the line... yea, yea, now you are going to tell me how great bargnani is at putting the ball on the floor.. right? well really he isn't.. if he is putting the ball on the floor, then how does that help the mismatch with carmelo as you put it? do you really want barngnani dribbling? how well did that work in toronto..

in the end, we got the wrong players, plain and simple.. can't fit square pegs in round holes...

So you don't like Melo or want him on the team. However, Melo is on the team and so we, and really Woody and Grunny have to figure out how to make it work with Mello. Give me 3 things you would implement. I know your first and second are still to trade Melo. So what is your third way to make the Knicks winners. By that I mean at least to the Eastern Conf Championship and preferably to the finals?

I do agree with you regarding Novak. I liked him for what he did which was to shoot 3 pointers. People got on him because he "only" shot 42.5% last year, down from 47% the yr before. But he was a role player and knew his role. 42.5% translates to 63.75% from 2 point range, so Novak was still quite effective. Bargnani is a better all round offensive player; doesn't defend well; doesn't rebound that well but rebounds much, much better than Novak. However, by Novak standing in the corner and demanding a player to cover him, he did help to open up the middle.

Being a Knicks fan, what I like to do is give the team and the players the benefit of the doubt. Look at the positives more than the negatives and give everyone a chance to prove themselves before ripping into them. It provides for a much more enjoyable off-season.

are you implying that carmelo anthony is uncoachable?

Markji wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Markji wrote:

tkf wrote:

Markji wrote:

tkf wrote:

Markji wrote:TKF - the box is too big and I have to work. Just one point....your"but trying to play the "euros are better team players card" is a bit desperate, come on now." You dismiss a very important point without any validation. I feel u should at least accept it. Because how else did the US drream teams lose to Euro teams with players from just 1 country. Some didn't even have an NBA player while we had all-stars.

Facing increased competition, the USA failed to win a medal at the 2002 FIBA World Championship, finishing sixth. The 2004 Summer Olympic team lost three games on its way to a bronze medal, a record that represented more losses in a single year than the country's Olympic teams had suffered in all previous Olympiads combined.

Determined to put an end to these failures, USA Basketball initiated a long-term project aimed at creating better, more cohesive teams. The USA won its first seven games at the 2006 FIBA World Championship in Japan before losing against Greece in the semi-finals, ending the competition with the bronze medal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_men's_national_basketball_team

How the heck did we lose to Greece. How did we come in 6th in 2002? The Euro play solid basketball. They aren't as fast; not as athletic; can't jump as high; etc, but they are well coached and play a solid game of BB. This is just one point, not the main point to sway an argument; but it gives us a plus. And BTW, your comment about Kidd and Prigs last year - We played very well and better team ball when Kidd was able to play the first few months. After that he was physically finished.

You're too hyped up on "Iso" play. Every teeam has star players who take more shots than the others.

are you kidding me, are you going to use an exception to prove our point? how come we won gold in 2012? 2008? 2000? 1996? 1992? and the list goes on.. remember we started sending pro playes in what, the 90's? only when we don't send close to our best do we struggle.. the last time I remember losing gold was in 2004, and wasn't carmelo on that team? just asking.. anyway..

You're too hyped up on "Iso" play. Every teeam has star players who take more shots than the others.

actually I am not, I am hyped up against.. sure every team has star players who take more shots than others.... and usually the teams that win have star players that are efficient, so taking more of the shots is a good thing..

the problem.. we have a guy who thinks he is as star player and takes a lion share of the shots and is not that efficient at all...

OK - so to say it succinctly you don't like Melo's game when he forces his shot. He gets double-teamed a lot and should pass out of that to the open man. I get it. I agree with that.

However, we can provide Melo with a mismatch inside and then he is a better scorer. Perhaps Bargs will help spread the floor.And we have 3 point guards who can pass and run an offense. None are all-stars but all 3 are solid.

Re: US Olympic teams. - with our talent we should never have lost. It is only recently that the European players as a group, have improved talent-wise to have so many play in the NBA. But individual talent-wise, the US dominates.

I will say this, carmelo does not get double teamed that much, in the pacers series, paul george didn't have help, yet carmelo was guarded very well and did force up shots, and everytime he missed he seemed to run back holding his shoulder.. I was like, really dude? if your shoulder hurts, stop taking 30 shots?

I don't like his style, the way he plays, his selfishness, mindset, the way he approaches the game, his face!! nothing.. so yea, it pisses me off he is on this team, the guy sabotages this teams championship aspirations just by being on it... fools gold man.. I see right through it..

However, we can provide Melo with a mismatch inside and then he is a better scorer. Perhaps Bargs will help spread the floor.And we have 3 point guards who can pass and run an offense. None are all-stars but all 3 are solid.

Bargnani spreading the floor is just another overrated wishful attempt to spin the trade.. we had the best 3 point shooter in the league in novak.. wasn't that his job? when the pacers took that away, when the heat took that away, then novak was considered useless... what i suspect is that the pacers, bulls and heat will also chase three point shooters off the line... yea, yea, now you are going to tell me how great bargnani is at putting the ball on the floor.. right? well really he isn't.. if he is putting the ball on the floor, then how does that help the mismatch with carmelo as you put it? do you really want barngnani dribbling? how well did that work in toronto..

in the end, we got the wrong players, plain and simple.. can't fit square pegs in round holes...

So you don't like Melo or want him on the team. However, Melo is on the team and so we, and really Woody and Grunny have to figure out how to make it work with Mello. Give me 3 things you would implement. I know your first and second are still to trade Melo. So what is your third way to make the Knicks winners. By that I mean at least to the Eastern Conf Championship and preferably to the finals?

I do agree with you regarding Novak. I liked him for what he did which was to shoot 3 pointers. People got on him because he "only" shot 42.5% last year, down from 47% the yr before. But he was a role player and knew his role. 42.5% translates to 63.75% from 2 point range, so Novak was still quite effective. Bargnani is a better all round offensive player; doesn't defend well; doesn't rebound that well but rebounds much, much better than Novak. However, by Novak standing in the corner and demanding a player to cover him, he did help to open up the middle.

Being a Knicks fan, what I like to do is give the team and the players the benefit of the doubt. Look at the positives more than the negatives and give everyone a chance to prove themselves before ripping into them. It provides for a much more enjoyable off-season.

are you implying that carmelo anthony is uncoachable?

No, not at all. Curious about what I said would lead to that conclusion? I'm just trying to counter tkf's obsession with hating on Melo and Bargs, and almost everything else the Knicks did. I want to know what is his alternate strategy? I'm glad we have Melo and am looking forward to a strong winning season from the team.

coaches and gms have tried to "figure out how to make it work with melo" his entire career. eventually you have to ask the question: is melo the type of player you can build a winner around and if not, is he coachable to the point that a coach can change his game from mediocre to superlative. melo's career record has been decidedly mediocre at best, falling well short of superlative. woodson is an enabler not an educator.

thought experiment: put popovich or rivers or thibodeau on the bench and what happens with melo? what happens with the knicks?

these are very thought-provoking questions, no?

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Markji wrote:

dk7th wrote:

Markji wrote:

tkf wrote:

Markji wrote:

tkf wrote:

Markji wrote:TKF - the box is too big and I have to work. Just one point....your"but trying to play the "euros are better team players card" is a bit desperate, come on now." You dismiss a very important point without any validation. I feel u should at least accept it. Because how else did the US drream teams lose to Euro teams with players from just 1 country. Some didn't even have an NBA player while we had all-stars.

Facing increased competition, the USA failed to win a medal at the 2002 FIBA World Championship, finishing sixth. The 2004 Summer Olympic team lost three games on its way to a bronze medal, a record that represented more losses in a single year than the country's Olympic teams had suffered in all previous Olympiads combined.

Determined to put an end to these failures, USA Basketball initiated a long-term project aimed at creating better, more cohesive teams. The USA won its first seven games at the 2006 FIBA World Championship in Japan before losing against Greece in the semi-finals, ending the competition with the bronze medal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_men's_national_basketball_team

How the heck did we lose to Greece. How did we come in 6th in 2002? The Euro play solid basketball. They aren't as fast; not as athletic; can't jump as high; etc, but they are well coached and play a solid game of BB. This is just one point, not the main point to sway an argument; but it gives us a plus. And BTW, your comment about Kidd and Prigs last year - We played very well and better team ball when Kidd was able to play the first few months. After that he was physically finished.

You're too hyped up on "Iso" play. Every teeam has star players who take more shots than the others.

are you kidding me, are you going to use an exception to prove our point? how come we won gold in 2012? 2008? 2000? 1996? 1992? and the list goes on.. remember we started sending pro playes in what, the 90's? only when we don't send close to our best do we struggle.. the last time I remember losing gold was in 2004, and wasn't carmelo on that team? just asking.. anyway..

You're too hyped up on "Iso" play. Every teeam has star players who take more shots than the others.

actually I am not, I am hyped up against.. sure every team has star players who take more shots than others.... and usually the teams that win have star players that are efficient, so taking more of the shots is a good thing..

the problem.. we have a guy who thinks he is as star player and takes a lion share of the shots and is not that efficient at all...

OK - so to say it succinctly you don't like Melo's game when he forces his shot. He gets double-teamed a lot and should pass out of that to the open man. I get it. I agree with that.

However, we can provide Melo with a mismatch inside and then he is a better scorer. Perhaps Bargs will help spread the floor.And we have 3 point guards who can pass and run an offense. None are all-stars but all 3 are solid.

Re: US Olympic teams. - with our talent we should never have lost. It is only recently that the European players as a group, have improved talent-wise to have so many play in the NBA. But individual talent-wise, the US dominates.

I will say this, carmelo does not get double teamed that much, in the pacers series, paul george didn't have help, yet carmelo was guarded very well and did force up shots, and everytime he missed he seemed to run back holding his shoulder.. I was like, really dude? if your shoulder hurts, stop taking 30 shots?

I don't like his style, the way he plays, his selfishness, mindset, the way he approaches the game, his face!! nothing.. so yea, it pisses me off he is on this team, the guy sabotages this teams championship aspirations just by being on it... fools gold man.. I see right through it..

However, we can provide Melo with a mismatch inside and then he is a better scorer. Perhaps Bargs will help spread the floor.And we have 3 point guards who can pass and run an offense. None are all-stars but all 3 are solid.

Bargnani spreading the floor is just another overrated wishful attempt to spin the trade.. we had the best 3 point shooter in the league in novak.. wasn't that his job? when the pacers took that away, when the heat took that away, then novak was considered useless... what i suspect is that the pacers, bulls and heat will also chase three point shooters off the line... yea, yea, now you are going to tell me how great bargnani is at putting the ball on the floor.. right? well really he isn't.. if he is putting the ball on the floor, then how does that help the mismatch with carmelo as you put it? do you really want barngnani dribbling? how well did that work in toronto..

in the end, we got the wrong players, plain and simple.. can't fit square pegs in round holes...

So you don't like Melo or want him on the team. However, Melo is on the team and so we, and really Woody and Grunny have to figure out how to make it work with Mello. Give me 3 things you would implement. I know your first and second are still to trade Melo. So what is your third way to make the Knicks winners. By that I mean at least to the Eastern Conf Championship and preferably to the finals?

I do agree with you regarding Novak. I liked him for what he did which was to shoot 3 pointers. People got on him because he "only" shot 42.5% last year, down from 47% the yr before. But he was a role player and knew his role. 42.5% translates to 63.75% from 2 point range, so Novak was still quite effective. Bargnani is a better all round offensive player; doesn't defend well; doesn't rebound that well but rebounds much, much better than Novak. However, by Novak standing in the corner and demanding a player to cover him, he did help to open up the middle.

Being a Knicks fan, what I like to do is give the team and the players the benefit of the doubt. Look at the positives more than the negatives and give everyone a chance to prove themselves before ripping into them. It provides for a much more enjoyable off-season.

are you implying that carmelo anthony is uncoachable?

No, not at all. Curious about what I said would lead to that conclusion? I'm just trying to counter tkf's obsession with hating on Melo and Bargs, and almost everything else the Knicks did. I want to know what is his alternate strategy? I'm glad we have Melo and am looking forward to a strong winning season from the team.

coaches and gms have tried to "figure out how to make it work with melo" his entire career. eventually you have to ask the question: is melo the type of player you can build a winner around and if not, is he coachable to the point that a coach can change his game from mediocre to superlative. melo's career record has been decidedly mediocre at best, falling well short of superlative. woodson is an enabler not an educator.

thought experiment: put popovich or rivers or thibodeau on the bench and what happens with melo? what happens with the knicks?

these are very thought-provoking questions, no?

He pretty much had George Karl as his coach since his second year in the league and he won a championship his one year in college. Are you referring to Karl or D'Antoni when you say coaches?

i actually have given this subject some thought today vis a vis d'antoni: he is not a leader of men and was lucky to have nash in phoenix-- he would be a great offensive assistant coach but head coaching is above his pay grade. his resigning is evidence of that to me. george karl is a leader of men... i admire his work in the timeout huddles that i have seen. but it seemed pretty clear that he was not satisfied with being hamstrung by melo's isolationist proclivities and lack of effort on defense. he pulled a walsh by praising melo's abilities as a scorer but to me the overall impression was "damning with faint praise," as shakespeare wrote.

now what about the questions i asked

Despite all of that an imbounds pass and cancer really derailed a good team that had growing chemistry.

No matter what it's up to Melo to win in the playoffs and change people's narrative of him

Melo
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2546
James
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2544
Durant
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=201142

Basically looking at the shot charts the only real eye popping difference seems to come from ability to finish around the rim.

Carmelo only averages 51.94% from in close, while Lebron averages, 72.12% and Durant averages 64.56%.

I subtracted the inside shots to see what there % were without it.

Carmelo shot 42.0% - Carmelo's inside shots only give him 3% raise rounded off
Lebron shot 42.4% - Lebron's inside shots give him a 14% raise rounded off
Durant shot 43.1% - Durant's inside shots give him a 8% raise rounded off

Only Midrange/no 3s or inside shots

Carmelo shot 268/601 44.5%
Lebron shot 199/458 43.4%
Durant shot 286/625 45.7%

The difference in scoring efficiency seems to come from Melo not being as good a finisher as Lebron and Durant. From midrange and 3pt shooting though he seems to be on par with them.

newyorknewyork wrote:I recently stumbled upon NBA.com Shotcharts. I then decided to compare Carmelo, Lebron, and Durant.

Melo
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2546
James
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=2544
Durant
http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=201142

Basically looking at the shot charts the only real eye popping difference seems to come from ability to finish around the rim.

Carmelo only averages 51.94% from in close, while Lebron averages, 72.12% and Durant averages 64.56%.

I subtracted the inside shots to see what there % were without it.

Carmelo shot 42.0% - Carmelo's inside shots only give him 3% raise rounded off
Lebron shot 42.4% - Lebron's inside shots give him a 14% raise rounded off
Durant shot 43.1% - Durant's inside shots give him a 8% raise rounded off

Only Midrange/no 3s or inside shots

Carmelo shot 268/601 44.5%
Lebron shot 199/458 43.4%
Durant shot 286/625 45.7%

The difference in scoring efficiency seems to come from Melo not being as good a finisher as Lebron and Durant. From midrange and 3pt shooting though he seems to be on par with them.

The goal should be more transition opportunities. Unlike the two guys he barely gets any transition buckets. Most of that is on him. He does need to become a better finisher in the halfcourt too. I would love to see his numbers after he came back from the knee drain when it seemed like he was dunking more. His insistence on not Dunking like he used to probably doesn't help

tkf wrote:

Markji wrote:

tkf wrote:

Markji wrote:

tkf wrote:

Markji wrote:TKF - the box is too big and I have to work. Just one point....your"but trying to play the "euros are better team players card" is a bit desperate, come on now." You dismiss a very important point without any validation. I feel u should at least accept it. Because how else did the US drream teams lose to Euro teams with players from just 1 country. Some didn't even have an NBA player while we had all-stars.

Facing increased competition, the USA failed to win a medal at the 2002 FIBA World Championship, finishing sixth. The 2004 Summer Olympic team lost three games on its way to a bronze medal, a record that represented more losses in a single year than the country's Olympic teams had suffered in all previous Olympiads combined.

Determined to put an end to these failures, USA Basketball initiated a long-term project aimed at creating better, more cohesive teams. The USA won its first seven games at the 2006 FIBA World Championship in Japan before losing against Greece in the semi-finals, ending the competition with the bronze medal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_men's_national_basketball_team

How the heck did we lose to Greece. How did we come in 6th in 2002? The Euro play solid basketball. They aren't as fast; not as athletic; can't jump as high; etc, but they are well coached and play a solid game of BB. This is just one point, not the main point to sway an argument; but it gives us a plus. And BTW, your comment about Kidd and Prigs last year - We played very well and better team ball when Kidd was able to play the first few months. After that he was physically finished.

You're too hyped up on "Iso" play. Every teeam has star players who take more shots than the others.

are you kidding me, are you going to use an exception to prove our point? how come we won gold in 2012? 2008? 2000? 1996? 1992? and the list goes on.. remember we started sending pro playes in what, the 90's? only when we don't send close to our best do we struggle.. the last time I remember losing gold was in 2004, and wasn't carmelo on that team? just asking.. anyway..

You're too hyped up on "Iso" play. Every teeam has star players who take more shots than the others.

actually I am not, I am hyped up against.. sure every team has star players who take more shots than others.... and usually the teams that win have star players that are efficient, so taking more of the shots is a good thing..

the problem.. we have a guy who thinks he is as star player and takes a lion share of the shots and is not that efficient at all...

OK - so to say it succinctly you don't like Melo's game when he forces his shot. He gets double-teamed a lot and should pass out of that to the open man. I get it. I agree with that.

However, we can provide Melo with a mismatch inside and then he is a better scorer. Perhaps Bargs will help spread the floor.And we have 3 point guards who can pass and run an offense. None are all-stars but all 3 are solid.

Re: US Olympic teams. - with our talent we should never have lost. It is only recently that the European players as a group, have improved talent-wise to have so many play in the NBA. But individual talent-wise, the US dominates.

I will say this, carmelo does not get double teamed that much, in the pacers series, paul george didn't have help, yet carmelo was guarded very well and did force up shots, and everytime he missed he seemed to run back holding his shoulder.. I was like, really dude? if your shoulder hurts, stop taking 30 shots?

I don't like his style, the way he plays, his selfishness, mindset, the way he approaches the game, his face!! nothing.. so yea, it pisses me off he is on this team, the guy sabotages this teams championship aspirations just by being on it... fools gold man.. I see right through it..

However, we can provide Melo with a mismatch inside and then he is a better scorer. Perhaps Bargs will help spread the floor.And we have 3 point guards who can pass and run an offense. None are all-stars but all 3 are solid.

Bargnani spreading the floor is just another overrated wishful attempt to spin the trade.. we had the best 3 point shooter in the league in novak.. wasn't that his job? when the pacers took that away, when the heat took that away, then novak was considered useless... what i suspect is that the pacers, bulls and heat will also chase three point shooters off the line... yea, yea, now you are going to tell me how great bargnani is at putting the ball on the floor.. right? well really he isn't.. if he is putting the ball on the floor, then how does that help the mismatch with carmelo as you put it? do you really want barngnani dribbling? how well did that work in toronto..

in the end, we got the wrong players, plain and simple.. can't fit square pegs in round holes...

So you don't like Melo or want him on the team. However, Melo is on the team and so we, and really Woody and Grunny have to figure out how to make it work with Mello. Give me 3 things you would implement. I know your first and second are still to trade Melo. So what is your third way to make the Knicks winners. By that I mean at least to the Eastern Conf Championship and preferably to the finals?

I do agree with you regarding Novak. I liked him for what he did which was to shoot 3 pointers. People got on him because he "only" shot 42.5% last year, down from 47% the yr before. But he was a role player and knew his role. 42.5% translates to 63.75% from 2 point range, so Novak was still quite effective. Bargnani is a better all round offensive player; doesn't defend well; doesn't rebound that well but rebounds much, much better than Novak. However, by Novak standing in the corner and demanding a player to cover him, he did help to open up the middle.

Being a Knicks fan, what I like to do is give the team and the players the benefit of the doubt. Look at the positives more than the negatives and give everyone a chance to prove themselves before ripping into them. It provides for a much more enjoyable off-season.

honestly, I think there have been a lot of great coaches and GM's that have tried to make it with carmelo as the focal point. I strongly feel that he just isn't the kind of guy you build a championship franchise around.. so to ask what could I do outside of trading him, I really don't have much of an asnwer.. Honestly....