Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:Lets try to keep the convo focused on Felton, the link provided, and what it is exactly you are trying to explain, to avoid an unmanageable discussion. Perhaps we can broaden it out into a wholesale defense of advanced stats in b-ball as it develops.

I appreciate your knowledge of stats as a contained object of study --- but what I am telling you is that from my vantage point, your use of the efficiency stat as explanation for winning basketball when it comes to Felton and other PGs is, charitably speaking, very messy.

You have not presented any argument or evidence that it is messy though. The best validated stats give high weight to efficiency. You have not found evidence of flaws in this validation research. It is also doubtful that you need a strong theory in order to make use of data anyway. Inductive statistics basically works by getting the data first and then making sense of them theoretically. If you initially did not realize it but then find that scoring efficiency is actually critical when looking at the data, it is acceptable to then formulate a theory that accounts for the importance of efficiency.

Sorry. Busy day. Didnt even get to watch the game.

For starters, as mentioned, the knicks had one of the best records in the league, over a 1/3 of the way through the season, with Felton manning the point. Overall, his teams have been successful throughout his career, except for when he had his head up his *** last year, so thats problematic for you off top because winning is the dependent variable. Not efficiency.

Then there is Jason Kidd and his ranking. Kidd is ranked, what 3rd? So with efficiency as a de-facto variable that explains success and w/ls, Kidd should therefore be considered one of the best current pgs in the league. We know thats not true.

Kidd is wonderful as a specialist, role player --- but as a featured pg? A liability. He cant put pressure on a defense, nor make things happen as an athlete anymore at his age, which hurts the effectiveness of his teammates. Anyone who watches knows as much.

But if you look at "efficiency", it says hes a top 5 pg. Efficiency often rewards those who do less, not impact the game more. Kidd plays almost a mistake free game --- but he cant assert himself physically to the benefit of his teammates. Its a great example on how stats, decontextualized, are dangerous (especially concerning more substantive studies).

Feltons aggressive play, and decent shooting for a PG the most important position, stresses the defense w/ consistent pressure. As a legit offensive threat, the d is on their heels, which has a positive effect on Melo and the team as a whole. Even when he misses, its potentially a positive as a cumulative effect (and direct effect w/ an offensive rebound). The formula for success with him as pg works, but it doesnt show up on a sheet sometimes.

I don't see how anything you said about Kidd negates the importance of scoring efficiency. For the season as a whole, he's been a very efficient scorer and it has definitely helped the team. Scoring efficiency is obviously only one of many factors that are considered in the advanced stats though. If you're very low in scoring efficiency but outstanding in other areas, that probably wouldn't be a problem. That doesn't apply to Felton, though.

I didnt negate it, per say, I just think you are applying too much weight as a complete explanation for the viability of a player, when its simply a variable. Im just using felton/kidd as examples on how it can be misleading, because of how accessible they are given that we all familiar with their play and production.

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

sebstar wrote:Lets try to keep the convo focused on Felton, the link provided, and what it is exactly you are trying to explain, to avoid an unmanageable discussion. Perhaps we can broaden it out into a wholesale defense of advanced stats in b-ball as it develops.

I appreciate your knowledge of stats as a contained object of study --- but what I am telling you is that from my vantage point, your use of the efficiency stat as explanation for winning basketball when it comes to Felton and other PGs is, charitably speaking, very messy.

You have not presented any argument or evidence that it is messy though. The best validated stats give high weight to efficiency. You have not found evidence of flaws in this validation research. It is also doubtful that you need a strong theory in order to make use of data anyway. Inductive statistics basically works by getting the data first and then making sense of them theoretically. If you initially did not realize it but then find that scoring efficiency is actually critical when looking at the data, it is acceptable to then formulate a theory that accounts for the importance of efficiency.

Sorry. Busy day. Didnt even get to watch the game.

For starters, as mentioned, the knicks had one of the best records in the league, over a 1/3 of the way through the season, with Felton manning the point. Overall, his teams have been successful throughout his career, except for when he had his head up his *** last year, so thats problematic for you off top because winning is the dependent variable. Not efficiency.

Then there is Jason Kidd and his ranking. Kidd is ranked, what 3rd? So with efficiency as a de-facto variable that explains success and w/ls, Kidd should therefore be considered one of the best current pgs in the league. We know thats not true.

Kidd is wonderful as a specialist, role player --- but as a featured pg? A liability. He cant put pressure on a defense, nor make things happen as an athlete anymore at his age, which hurts the effectiveness of his teammates. Anyone who watches knows as much.

But if you look at "efficiency", it says hes a top 5 pg. Efficiency often rewards those who do less, not impact the game more. Kidd plays almost a mistake free game --- but he cant assert himself physically to the benefit of his teammates. Its a great example on how stats, decontextualized, are dangerous (especially concerning more substantive studies).

Feltons aggressive play, and decent shooting for a PG the most important position, stresses the defense w/ consistent pressure. As a legit offensive threat, the d is on their heels, which has a positive effect on Melo and the team as a whole. Even when he misses, its potentially a positive as a cumulative effect (and direct effect w/ an offensive rebound). The formula for success with him as pg works, but it doesnt show up on a sheet sometimes.

I don't see how anything you said about Kidd negates the importance of scoring efficiency. For the season as a whole, he's been a very efficient scorer and it has definitely helped the team. Scoring efficiency is obviously only one of many factors that are considered in the advanced stats though. If you're very low in scoring efficiency but outstanding in other areas, that probably wouldn't be a problem. That doesn't apply to Felton, though.

I didnt negate it, per say, I just think you are applying too much weight as a complete explanation for the viability of a player, when its simply a variable. Im just using felton/kidd as examples on how it can be misleading, because of how accessible they are given that we all familiar with their play and production.

besides this, woodson himself said the defensive effort by the team as a whole has tailed off and is the primary if not exclusive source of the mediocrity lately.

on offense what good is felton's so-called penetration if it ends up in a crappy teardrop or floater? he commits to the air virtually every time in the lane-- a cardinal sin as walt frazier often notes-- and then shoots the ball 75% of the time instead of staying on his feet and finding an open cutter or a man on the perimeter. we saw him do this once in the nets game when he turned around and passed out to kidd. on this leaving ones feet maybe a guy like derrick rose or westbrook can get away with this questionable strategy because they are so much more athletic and can actually finish at the rim... but felton can't do that. what's worse is that he takes more than 15 shots a game, detracting from cohesion instead of creating it. and his free throw attempts are minimal for a guy who gets in the lane and shoots such a low percentage. really not at all conducive to winning.

and yes the stats do support this impression quite clearly.

zero-sum players are missed only in the sense that they give you minutes and provide rest for others. zero-sum players also tend to get traded a lot.

knickscity wrote:The team misses Felton, that shouldn't even be deabated.

+1, a healthy Felton will get us back on track.

But, in times like this, Melo needs to be the leader and he just ain't doing it.

NUPE wrote:So much for this team winning in spite of Felton. The nose dive coincided with Felton losing both his hands. Jason Kidd, who everyone has gone out of their way to praise can not handles being the primary ball handler due to his age and inability to penetrate on a consistent basis.

dk7th wrote:felton is a sub-par defender so that side of things is not missed from him. superior guards were beating him off the dribble anyway. some people see a competitive fire in him which is fine, but it comes at a price which is that he tends to strive too much in an effort to prove he is as good as player x or player y. this makes him rash and destroys what little poise he may possess.

besides this, woodson himself said the defensive effort by the team as a whole has tailed off and is the primary if not exclusive source of the mediocrity lately.

on offense what good is felton's so-called penetration if it ends up in a crappy teardrop or floater? he commits to the air virtually every time in the lane-- a cardinal sin as walt frazier often notes-- and then shoots the ball 75% of the time instead of staying on his feet and finding an open cutter or a man on the perimeter. we saw him do this once in the nets game when he turned around and passed out to kidd. on this leaving ones feet maybe a guy like derrick rose or westbrook can get away with this questionable strategy because they are so much more athletic and can actually finish at the rim... but felton can't do that. what's worse is that he takes more than 15 shots a game, detracting from cohesion instead of creating it. and his free throw attempts are minimal for a guy who gets in the lane and shoots such a low percentage. really not at all conducive to winning.

and yes the stats do support this impression quite clearly.

zero-sum players are missed only in the sense that they give you minutes and provide rest for others. zero-sum players also tend to get traded a lot.

I agree to for the most part, he is very important to the Knick's and he is our best PG, however, he just isn't that good
With that said, he is still very important to our roster, he is one of our "young legs", and he is missed on both ends on the floor
We need his ability to penetrate, score * to open up look's for other players*, spread the floor, and most importantly DEF *even though I agree he has does get beat a lot, he is still our best defender outside of Iman and maybe JR Smith*

In the end, he is still ranked as one of the worst STARTING PG's in the entire league
That might seem hard to swallow but go around each team in the entire league and it is the truth
That doesn't make him any less crucial because he in fact is very important to the team and is one of our pieces allowing us to play the style that has been successful for us

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

nycisgreat wrote:

knickscity wrote:The team misses Felton, that shouldn't even be deabated.

+1, a healthy Felton will get us back on track.

+1000 I don't understand why anyone who actually watches our games disputes this, I really don't.

Neither do I; Felton is a below average starting PG but we still need him.

Lol! Below average. You either still are upset about Lin or you are just delusional. Do you have facts to backup what you are saying? Show me the numbers.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nycisgreat wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

nycisgreat wrote:

knickscity wrote:The team misses Felton, that shouldn't even be deabated.

+1, a healthy Felton will get us back on track.

+1000 I don't understand why anyone who actually watches our games disputes this, I really don't.

Neither do I; Felton is a below average starting PG but we still need him.

Lol! Below average. You either still are upset about Lin or you are just delusional. Do you have facts to backup what you are saying? Show me the numbers.

Show you the numbers? Have missed every link already. List 15 starting PGs that he is better than if you think he is better than the average starting PG.

in no order

PGs
----------

Westbrook
CP3
Deron
Parker
Curry
Holiday
Rhondo
Nash
Vazquez
Irving
Jennings
Lilliard
Dragic
Conley
Lawson
==================
15
==================
Kemba Walker

Injured, without all are much better, but all will be starting once they get back healthy
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Wall played yesterday but wasn't starting
Rose
Rubio
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nelson
Lin
Toronto's PG's in Lowry/Calderon

Felton is somewhere here...

Darren Collison
Mo Williams
George Hill

Not to mention some teams have 2 PG's that are better

This doesn't make Felton any less important to our roster because he is VERY IMPORTANT, but he is just not that good
If he can cut out some of the poor shot selection he would be a lot better and he would move up in rankings, but at this point of his career, he is what he is, he is more or less peaked out already

I don't think the number's are necessary, there really isn't a debate, Felton is mediocre AT BEST and has peaked out in terms of development, not much more before he goes downhill as age catches up with him, as he has trouble staying in front of PG's already