ChuckBuck wrote:Didn't Derrick Rose win the year Lebron had better stats in Miami? What was the determining factor. More wins.

No there were other factors...such as he played 25gms without the likes of Noah or Boozer in the lineups and he had improved numbers across the board.

Like I said in my previous posts there have been players with better numbers and records who haven't won the award. There have been players with better stats but not the best team record, there have been players with very good stats not their best on teams with the best record. It varies some but usually if your team has one of the Top records and the numbers are there, being a Top candidate is achievable.

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

dk7th wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

dk7th wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

tkf wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

tkf wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

3G4G wrote:I'd take Rondo over Carmelo even before they were ever born

Rondo's 44pt game performance vs Heat>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Carmelo's 42pt game performance against Celtics

Rondo in big games on TV and against us>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anything Melo does

This is fine.

But as of today, he's just not as valuable to his team as Carmelo has been to his.

now I would love to hear how you came to this conclusion...

Um, the standings?

lol.. we can argue that we are 9-4 because of jason kidd as well..

we are 1.5 games up on boston and haven't even played 20 games yet, not even close... so that has no bearing on who is more valuable at this point.. the records are pretty much identical..

As I said before, the MVP award cannot be won without the help of the team. I'll go even further and mention JR Smith, Rasheed Wallace, and Raymond Felton being a huge part of Carmelo being in the MVP hunt. But let's be realistic, Jason Kidd isn't the best player on the team lol. He's the smartest.

I've never said he's in the race because he's a one man show.

because this award is voted on by sportwriters and broadcasters you have to wonder how much stock to place in this award.

second you will notice there is no discernible pattern for who wins the award, which means that the criteria vary from person to person among the voters, rendering the award anything but objective.

third, there is no such thing as "best player" in a team sport, otherwise there would be a "best player award." but there isn't. best boxer, best tennis player, best golfer, best high jumper, yes.

you appear to have the matter backwards: it is usually the player perceived as making his teammates better that is more likely to win, than a player who depends on teammates to put up his numbers.

with this in mind carmelo has virtually zero chance of winning the mvp, even if you regard him as "the best player on the knicks."

No, you're wrong. Michal Jordan is a 5 time MVP, Tim Duncan is a 2 time MVP, and Kobe has won it once.

Those guys aren't known for making their teammates better. They won it because they were clearly the best players on their high winning teams. They dominated the league with their offensive abilities.

Steve Nash and Jason Kidd will ALWAYS make their teammates better, no matter how long they're in the league or how old they are.

Are they MVP candidates? No.

jordan and duncan didn't make their teammates better? you're joking.

as i said it is really an arbitrary process, sometimes coinciding with reality and sometimes not. there has been increasing amounts of populist rationale combined with a bit of sentimentality.

nash won it twice for making his teammates so much better on offense that the voting bloc seemed to be able to look past his defensive liabilities.

Michael Jordan and Tim Duncan didn't make their teammates better with their play the way Steve Nash and Jason Kidd did. They did it with their leadership and demands of guys coming into camp in top shape, minimizing defensive lapses, etc. If you think they did, go check their career assist numbers, they won't stand out. Points and rebounds don't make other players better.

Again, having a high defensive ability is not a requirement. It's the same as not making teammates better. If it was all about making teammates better, Kobe would've taken 25 less shots in his MVP season to create 15 more assists. It doesn't work that way. There's no one way to do it.

But there is one constant. And that is being on an elite team.

From there, you can begin to dissect the strengths and weaknesses of a player before awarding it to someone.

dude, jordan and duncan made others better with their greatness, they made the game easier for guys like pippen, grant, armstrong, kerr, ginobili, parker etc.. if you want to talk hockey assist, go look at those guys...

great players like that don't talk about coming to camp in shape the next year or the following, they don't decide after 10 years they will try to defend or pass the ball.. NO!! they don't look for a pat on the back to do things they should.. they come into campp in shape, they pass the ball, they defend every game, they do what it takes to win, because they are winners! they hold team mates accountable and they are accountable themselves....

they were true leaders of men.. and when you lead men, you help make them better players... those guys made their teams elite..

carmelo was never on an elite team, but for some reason it was always someone else fault.. go figure..

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

3G4G wrote:MVP Results of the Past 9-10yrs of Melo's career

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2012.html#mvp Melo not on the list

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2011.html#mvp Melo not on the list

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2010.html#mvp Melo finished 6th

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2009.html#mvp Melo not on the list....

Billups finished 6th trolol you know the guy a couple of us said was better or more important than Melo this season but some rascals in this very thread tried to beg to differ. Just like a small few are saying Kidd is as impactful as Melo to this current team

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2008.html#mvp Melo finished 13th

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2007.html#mvp Melo finished 15th

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2006.html#mvp Melo not on the list

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2005.html#mvp Melo not on the list

Camby finished 15th trolol you know Melo never played with anybody worthy while in Denver

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2004.html#mvp Melo finished 14th

I see Melo by season's end finishing really no better than the 2010 season as 6th. Ironic analyst felt this was his was his best season as a player TEAM impact, which probably doesn't match up with what most fans felt was his best season

good research and great find on billups.. both of us were saying he was as important to that team than anyone, of course we felt the backlash.. haha

know what else I noticed that I mentioned before.. look who names shows up on that list quite a bit...

yep our very own, Amare!!!!! who I said when healthy is the best player on the knicks...

Yea when Denver wins its because of Billups and Camby, when they lose its because of Melo.

Amare was rated high on the MVP ladder and didn't make anyone better, he was just a high production guy with everything tailored for him with Gallo and Chandler spacing the floor, Fields rebounding well at the guard spot to cover for Gallo, Chandler and Amare's average rebounding ability and Raymond Felton playing at allstar level in MDA's system. You could say Raymond Felton was as important to the Knicks improvement as Amare since we all know Amare isn't as good without a PG create for him.

Rick Carlisle stated they won the champonship because Jason Kidd allowed them to not run any set plays which stopped Miami's ability to set there defense. Kept them off balance. Chandler basically covered for Dirk's weaknesses in the post. Nobody else looks to down grade Dirk because he needed Kidd and Chandler to help him win one.

Its clear though that you guys will choose who you D ride and who you will hate on based on personal opinion and not standards that you will hold everyone accountable for reguardless.

Very True...

arkrud wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

dk7th wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

dk7th wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

tkf wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

tkf wrote:

JrZyHuStLa wrote:

3G4G wrote:I'd take Rondo over Carmelo even before they were ever born

Rondo's 44pt game performance vs Heat>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Carmelo's 42pt game performance against Celtics

Rondo in big games on TV and against us>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anything Melo does

This is fine.

But as of today, he's just not as valuable to his team as Carmelo has been to his.

now I would love to hear how you came to this conclusion...

Um, the standings?

lol.. we can argue that we are 9-4 because of jason kidd as well..

we are 1.5 games up on boston and haven't even played 20 games yet, not even close... so that has no bearing on who is more valuable at this point.. the records are pretty much identical..

As I said before, the MVP award cannot be won without the help of the team. I'll go even further and mention JR Smith, Rasheed Wallace, and Raymond Felton being a huge part of Carmelo being in the MVP hunt. But let's be realistic, Jason Kidd isn't the best player on the team lol. He's the smartest.

I've never said he's in the race because he's a one man show.

because this award is voted on by sportwriters and broadcasters you have to wonder how much stock to place in this award.

second you will notice there is no discernible pattern for who wins the award, which means that the criteria vary from person to person among the voters, rendering the award anything but objective.

third, there is no such thing as "best player" in a team sport, otherwise there would be a "best player award." but there isn't. best boxer, best tennis player, best golfer, best high jumper, yes.

you appear to have the matter backwards: it is usually the player perceived as making his teammates better that is more likely to win, than a player who depends on teammates to put up his numbers.

with this in mind carmelo has virtually zero chance of winning the mvp, even if you regard him as "the best player on the knicks."

No, you're wrong. Michal Jordan is a 5 time MVP, Tim Duncan is a 2 time MVP, and Kobe has won it once.

Those guys aren't known for making their teammates better. They won it because they were clearly the best players on their high winning teams. They dominated the league with their offensive abilities.

Steve Nash and Jason Kidd will ALWAYS make their teammates better, no matter how long they're in the league or how old they are.

Are they MVP candidates? No.

jordan and duncan didn't make their teammates better? you're joking.

as i said it is really an arbitrary process, sometimes coinciding with reality and sometimes not. there has been increasing amounts of populist rationale combined with a bit of sentimentality.

nash won it twice for making his teammates so much better on offense that the voting bloc seemed to be able to look past his defensive liabilities.

Michael Jordan and Tim Duncan didn't make their teammates better with their play the way Steve Nash and Jason Kidd did. They did it with their leadership and demands of guys coming into camp in top shape, minimizing defensive lapses, etc. If you think they did, go check their career assist numbers, they won't stand out. Points and rebounds don't make other players better.

Again, having a high defensive ability is not a requirement. It's the same as not making teammates better. If it was all about making teammates better, Kobe would've taken 25 less shots in his MVP season to create 15 more assists. It doesn't work that way. There's no one way to do it.

But there is one constant. And that is being on an elite team.

From there, you can begin to dissect the strengths and weaknesses of a player before awarding it to someone.

Melo had an opportunity to join potentially elite team as free agent not depleted by trading for him.
But he wanted $$$ and at this point his chance for greatness was lost.

Are you suggesting melo should not have pushed for the trade to my? Denver was moving him as they had watched other teams get nothing for their franchise players when they left in free agency. Also melo would have lost25 mil if he left Denver as a free agent. You can't disregard the labor situation.

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

3G4G wrote:MVP Results of the Past 9-10yrs of Melo's career

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2012.html#mvp Melo not on the list

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2011.html#mvp Melo not on the list

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2010.html#mvp Melo finished 6th

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2009.html#mvp Melo not on the list....

Billups finished 6th trolol you know the guy a couple of us said was better or more important than Melo this season but some rascals in this very thread tried to beg to differ. Just like a small few are saying Kidd is as impactful as Melo to this current team

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2008.html#mvp Melo finished 13th

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2007.html#mvp Melo finished 15th

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2006.html#mvp Melo not on the list

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2005.html#mvp Melo not on the list

Camby finished 15th trolol you know Melo never played with anybody worthy while in Denver

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2004.html#mvp Melo finished 14th

I see Melo by season's end finishing really no better than the 2010 season as 6th. Ironic analyst felt this was his was his best season as a player TEAM impact, which probably doesn't match up with what most fans felt was his best season

good research and great find on billups.. both of us were saying he was as important to that team than anyone, of course we felt the backlash.. haha

know what else I noticed that I mentioned before.. look who names shows up on that list quite a bit...

yep our very own, Amare!!!!! who I said when healthy is the best player on the knicks...

Yea when Denver wins its because of Billups and Camby, when they lose its because of Melo.

Amare was rated high on the MVP ladder and didn't make anyone better, he was just a high production guy with everything tailored for him with Gallo and Chandler spacing the floor, Fields rebounding well at the guard spot to cover for Gallo, Chandler and Amare's average rebounding ability and Raymond Felton playing at allstar level in MDA's system. You could say Raymond Felton was as important to the Knicks improvement as Amare since we all know Amare isn't as good without a PG create for him.

Rick Carlisle stated they won the champonship because Jason Kidd allowed them to not run any set plays which stopped Miami's ability to set there defense. Kept them off balance. Chandler basically covered for Dirk's weaknesses in the post. Nobody else looks to down grade Dirk because he needed Kidd and Chandler to help him win one.

Its clear though that you guys will choose who you D ride and who you will hate on based on personal opinion and not standards that you will hold everyone accountable for reguardless.

as i have been saying the award is generally too arbitrary to even discuss rationally. look at your post-- you make the false assumption that the award is somehow NOT based on personal opinion and umbrella standards. don't you see how absurd that assertion is?

nevertheless lets play your game by your rules: if i am a sportcaster or sportswriter amare's performance was fool's gold and he was not an mvp candidate-- that was just sentimentality and marketing. he got his in a vacuum and therefore at the expense of his teammates. that's not mvp work.

dirk learned how to play with his back to the basket and learned to read converging doubles that kept the ball ahead of defenders. and his TS% for the season was an elite 61.2. usg 28 and assist rate 14.2. translation: incredibly efficient in isolation when necessary and did not hurt his team. in the playoffs he was even more dominant.

what is alarming-- and damning-- is that amare and melo's numbers are basically the same: TS, USG, assist rate all within a point of each other.

seeing is believing and when you look at the stats it backs up what you see-- unless you are a carmelo anthony acolyte.

what few people realize is that so many players they think are great are, at the end of the day, fool's gold, close to zero-sum players.

jrodmc wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

tkf wrote:

3G4G wrote:MVP Results of the Past 9-10yrs of Melo's career

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2012.html#mvp Melo not on the list

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2011.html#mvp Melo not on the list

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2010.html#mvp Melo finished 6th

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2009.html#mvp Melo not on the list....

Billups finished 6th trolol you know the guy a couple of us said was better or more important than Melo this season but some rascals in this very thread tried to beg to differ. Just like a small few are saying Kidd is as impactful as Melo to this current team

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2008.html#mvp Melo finished 13th

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2007.html#mvp Melo finished 15th

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2006.html#mvp Melo not on the list

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2005.html#mvp Melo not on the list

Camby finished 15th trolol you know Melo never played with anybody worthy while in Denver

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2004.html#mvp Melo finished 14th

I see Melo by season's end finishing really no better than the 2010 season as 6th. Ironic analyst felt this was his was his best season as a player TEAM impact, which probably doesn't match up with what most fans felt was his best season

good research and great find on billups.. both of us were saying he was as important to that team than anyone, of course we felt the backlash.. haha

know what else I noticed that I mentioned before.. look who names shows up on that list quite a bit...

yep our very own, Amare!!!!! who I said when healthy is the best player on the knicks...

Yea when Denver wins its because of Billups and Camby, when they lose its because of Melo.

Amare was rated high on the MVP ladder and didn't make anyone better, he was just a high production guy with everything tailored for him with Gallo and Chandler spacing the floor, Fields rebounding well at the guard spot to cover for Gallo, Chandler and Amare's average rebounding ability and Raymond Felton playing at allstar level in MDA's system. You could say Raymond Felton was as important to the Knicks improvement as Amare since we all know Amare isn't as good without a PG create for him.

Rick Carlisle stated they won the champonship because Jason Kidd allowed them to not run any set plays which stopped Miami's ability to set there defense. Kept them off balance. Chandler basically covered for Dirk's weaknesses in the post. Nobody else looks to down grade Dirk because he needed Kidd and Chandler to help him win one.

Its clear though that you guys will choose who you D ride and who you will hate on based on personal opinion and not standards that you will hold everyone accountable for reguardless.

+1 Wow. Just wow.

I suppose that's somehow just as bad as being a homer based on the uniform someone's wearing. And hating for the same reasons.

I respected Larry Bird. But I hated his azz and MJ's just the same.

Homeristicness.

I stick with the same woman, no matter how bad things get.

I stick with the same stupid brand of vehicle, no matter how stupidly they engineer some of them.

I keep taking my idiot dog to the vet and dumping hundreds each time because ...it's my dog.

Is it blind loyalty? Some innate need to remain attached to what I know that I know?

What would be so bad with just following some other team? I mean, the effing WFAN N*yet$ games come in nice and clear.
I like Brooklyn. Flatbush. Kings Highway...

Nahhhhhhhhhhhhh

Post spacing format, copyright Nalod LLC, 2012.

Spacing is easier to read. When Ron Ron, or Nix goes off on a single block paragraph I won't read it. I like the flow of the spacing.

Glancing over this arguement I have to chime in:

1. Melo is demonstrating a team concept in his game not seen previously in a knick uniform. Since Stats don't tell the whole story I can't vouch for his Denver years other than whats in the box score. This year I see him setting picks and moving the ball much quicker. When needed, he goes into Iso ball.

2. If the Knicks finish 1st or second in the East, then he is a legit top 5 candidate for MVP league wise. If Lebron plays healthy most of the season and given his tendency to facilitate its hard to argue against his MVP status. The guy is both a playmaker and a finisher. That does not diminish Melo's ability and contribution to the knicks. Season is still way early. Durant is still a better "melo" in terms of being a scorer. Again, Homeristic tendency aside, Durant does not take away from what Melo is doing, its just different and he is a better player.

The fact the Knicks are doing so well and Melo can at least be in the same paragraph is a testament to the best November we have had in years.

November my friends, its just November!

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:For an arbitrary award, you Anti-Melo guys sure spent a lot of time trying to shoot him down.

How rationally is that???

And the other half spent a lot of time trying to build him up for an arbitrary reward.

What was this websites name again????

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:For an arbitrary award, you Anti-Melo guys sure spent a lot of time trying to shoot him down.

How rationally is that???

And the other half spent a lot of time trying to build him up for an arbitrary reward.

Which is only bad if you are a Nyets fans or a fan of 28 other teams, fans tend to arbitrary do alot of things for their team and players.

What was this websites name again????

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Anji wrote:For an arbitrary award, you Anti-Melo guys sure spent a lot of time trying to shoot him down.

How rationally is that???

And the other half spent a lot of time trying to build him up for an arbitrary reward.

Which is only bad if you are a Nyets fans or a fan of 28 other teams, fans tend to arbitrary do alot of things for their team and players.

What was this websites name again????

I think almost everyone here loves the Knicks. The issue is just how to distribute the credit for the 10-4 start. Some people are building up Carmelo and downplaying the contributions of Kidd, Smith, and Chandler. You could call them KSC-Haters. Others are giving those three more credit and Melo less.

JrZyHuStLa wrote:Hope everyone is well. It's been a while since I've posted around these parts. Been pretty busy with things, but now that the NBA is back I'll be sure to provide my much needed insight on UK.com.

The spider webs have been cleared (some of you may know what this means), the team plays better offensively than any offensive minded philosophy can implement. They pass, shoot, and DEFEND aggressively.

Love him or hate him, this team needs Carmelo. They're a middle of the pack team without his offense, rebounding, and leadership (yes, I said leadership). He is the finishing touch on a team that has true centers and a true point guard in Jason Kidd. There's no better way to complement a suffocating defense than to have a player who can score at will in any given type of setup. This team can't beat Miami without him. Thinking so is just delusional. If they're a 50+ team, he will be talked about in the MVP race all season.

We're doing big things this year, and we don't even have Shump back yet.

Feels good to talk about Knicks basketball again.

The OP doesn't scream KSC-Hating to me.