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Not to beat a dead horse, but...
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CashMoney
Posts: 23145
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 1/15/2011
Member: #3374
USA
9/12/2012  2:40 AM
tkf wrote:
CashMoney wrote:
tkf wrote:
CashMoney wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:

ALL TOP TIER PG's destroy each other.. what is your point?

Please show me videos of Deron Willians, Rondo and CP3 getting stripped by a simple 1v1 full court or half court press multiple times in the same game this past season. This is an extreme problem. The fact that you kids poo poo this is laughable and ridiculous.

extreme problem? other than that game vs miami, where else has that happened? I think the only thing here that is extreme, is your criticism of lin.. full sour grapes mode bro..

It would have been nice or a better gauge if Lin shot better than 34% against > .500 competition.

the most important stats is 8-1.. he saved the knicks season. he was dynamic and capture the NBA world.....

useless stats do you no favors here. .in the end, the key is to win, get your guys out on top.... that requires a lot of leadership.. which is why the knicks have stunk for years, no leadership, doesn't matter if you can dunk out of your mind, wear headbands or call yourself the "best pure scorer" rofl.. just win baby.. .win.. lin did that...

Lin did that against shytty teams while he was still unknown. When he became known, he was below average. There are many reasons or contributors that were in play here so I am not judging him (yet). I would have liked him back to see how he might have developed but crowning him at this point or de-crowning him is silly. Was it magical? Certainly and I cannot remember a more magical 10 game stretch in any sport but he is at this point a VERY unknown commodity.

And, if you find a stat that displays a players ability to shine or not shine against the better competition useless then you are completely missing the boat and that is maybe why you never bring stats into your arguments.

For the most part, Lin appeared to play well verse most teams but Miami. I'll give him, or any player, that pass. I remember Stat and Melo having more bad games than Lin to be honest - it happens. Talk about no training camp, the kid had no anything before being thrown in there. When you see a young talent like Lin play and play EXTREMELY well as a rookie, you can't overlook that - and he is playing a very difficult position at that.

Man, after suffering through so many years as a Knicks fan, I find it hard to believe that so many people are not talking about the specialness he brought - making this into a mechanistic argument that misses so much and also avoids the obvious. You can't quantify special.

This is real simple:

Eyes don't lie. We saw something in that kid that we hadn't seen in a Knicks player in a LOOOOOOOONG time. It was special. It isn't worth breaking down into stats (thought they were very good). Lin had IT. All the hate and rationalization isn't going to take what we saw away. Break it down into stats, into logic, etc. Lin is special. And Dolan is a moron.

The key word here is "appeared". And you mentioned Melo - that you "remembered" that he had "more bad games".

Lin shot 34% against > .500 competion while Melo shot 46%.

I know many do not care for stats, especially when what they are looking at "appears" to be magical. I understand this concept/argument and used it many times in my discussion with Bonn1997. However, being fair and balanced, it can't be discounted since stats don't lie.

While I openly admitted to my magical feeling with Lin during the Linsanity stretch, the stats cannot be discounted, especially such an important one. Lin appeared to play well against the teams other than Miami however, that was not the case an appearances and magic can be misleading.

One has to be open minded in their overall assessment and not use emotion as a gauge.

While Lin might have a big upside, he remains unproven. He will have this season to prove himself so we will certainly see shortly if he can be a consistent good player.

My take does not belittle what he has done.

carmelo's playoff record 16-36

can you win... that is what I am concerned with... if you shoot 34% against above .500 comp but still win, then that is all that matters..

Nice. Winning is about your team, you need to play well to help with that. But I am sure you know that even with your blind hate.

It's nice to be able to choose when to be blind.

la la land must be a fun place. I need to take an excursion ... :-)

16-36 bro.. nothing more to say...

Shocking that you have nothing more to say!

How did Melo play in those 36 losses?

The fact of the matter is that the game of basketball will always and forever be a team sport. Players have great games and lose but the loss comes as a team not as an individual. Lossing a game does not make the player who played a great game a loser. Just means that the player played well but the team didn't. Nothing more nothing less.

no it is not shocking, that is my point.. sometimes stats like shooting .34% vs teams above .500 don't tell the whole story.. lin was a catalyst, he was a playmaker and a leader on the floor.... and he showed signs of being a winner, regardless of how well he shot...

doesn't matter how carmelo played in those 36 losses,if he played well and still went 16-36 is that any better than playing bad in those losses.... maybe his style of play just doesn't produce winning ball.. that is the key.

Maybe, just maybe Melo's record was indicative of the teams he played on.

There is no doubt that Lin has good qualities as a player but also has deficiencies as a player.

lin has some improving to do, no one denies that. what infuriates me with knicks fans is now that he is gone, all of a sudden lin wasn't a good player, the knicks are now financially responsible, dolan and "grunny".. LOL.. are geniuses, and what we saw with lin was an aberration because teams like the lakers who use to just kick our asses on national TV were not prepared for lin.... that is a joke..

as far as melo, I am tired of the excuses, it is always some other reason as to his failures.. very tiring...

Lin is a good player but how good and $14.8 million good remains to be seen. There is no doubt that the kid can play but I want to see what he does in a full season as a marked man. PG's out West are no joke. We can go 100% nuts if he blows up next season but I hope he doesn't. It's not that I don't like him, it's just that I hope the Knicks actually made a right decision.

As far as Melo...I've been a fan since Syracuse and always followed his career and was/am happy that he's wearing the blue and orange. The pressure is now on him big time. Lebron has his ring and Melo is in the line of fire for the media storm. I expect the best season of his career this year.

Blue & Orange 4 Life!
AUTOADVERT
earthmansurfer
Posts: 24005
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/26/2005
Member: #858
Germany
9/12/2012  2:53 AM
limpidgimp wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:Eyes don't lie. We saw something in that kid that we hadn't seen in a Knicks player in a LOOOOOOOONG time. It was special. It isn't worth breaking down into stats (thought they were very good). Lin had IT. All the hate and rationalization isn't going to take what we saw away. Break it down into stats, into logic, etc. Lin is special. And Dolan is a moron.

I feel the same way. But others who don't see that same quality, well, it's very unlikely you can change their minds by talking about it. In most such discussions, people stick to concrete things like stats and plays and so on because there's the assumption that that is the common language and shared stuff by which we can come together and converse about it reasonably, and persuade others, and acknowledge who is right and who is wrong. But there is a huge emotional component that is connected to the sense of seeing something special. All the stats aren't really the language to talk about it; it just circles around without getting there. That's why I don't really get into the convincing game. I'm not trying to recreate my experience of it for another person, nor do I need the other person to confirm what I myself see.

I'm all for talking stats and doing analysis, but there are some conversations in which you know beforehand you aren't changing anyone's mind no matter what you say right or how persuasive you are. It's just bizarre how I've never seen anything like this except when people talk about Lin. Even apparently obvious points can end up being polarizing and controversial.

When I talk about that quality that Lin made many of us feel, even the "haters" had that feeling, because we were playing well as a team. To talk about it brings up memories and causes us to re-visit what it was we felt. Other guys have the stats part down, I got the feeling part a bit clearer (I think as you just don't see many people mentioning it).

So, it can't hurt to mention it. I mean we are still divided in a left brain society and we are bringing up stats. Might as well bring some balance to the discussion. Perhaps I'm not so much trying to convince others, as just reminding them...

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. Albert Einstein
earthmansurfer
Posts: 24005
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/26/2005
Member: #858
Germany
9/12/2012  3:03 AM
tkf wrote:
CashMoney wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:

ALL TOP TIER PG's destroy each other.. what is your point?

Please show me videos of Deron Willians, Rondo and CP3 getting stripped by a simple 1v1 full court or half court press multiple times in the same game this past season. This is an extreme problem. The fact that you kids poo poo this is laughable and ridiculous.

extreme problem? other than that game vs miami, where else has that happened? I think the only thing here that is extreme, is your criticism of lin.. full sour grapes mode bro..

It would have been nice or a better gauge if Lin shot better than 34% against > .500 competition.

the most important stats is 8-1.. he saved the knicks season. he was dynamic and capture the NBA world.....

useless stats do you no favors here. .in the end, the key is to win, get your guys out on top.... that requires a lot of leadership.. which is why the knicks have stunk for years, no leadership, doesn't matter if you can dunk out of your mind, wear headbands or call yourself the "best pure scorer" rofl.. just win baby.. .win.. lin did that...

Lin did that against shytty teams while he was still unknown. When he became known, he was below average. There are many reasons or contributors that were in play here so I am not judging him (yet). I would have liked him back to see how he might have developed but crowning him at this point or de-crowning him is silly. Was it magical? Certainly and I cannot remember a more magical 10 game stretch in any sport but he is at this point a VERY unknown commodity.

And, if you find a stat that displays a players ability to shine or not shine against the better competition useless then you are completely missing the boat and that is maybe why you never bring stats into your arguments.

For the most part, Lin appeared to play well verse most teams but Miami. I'll give him, or any player, that pass. I remember Stat and Melo having more bad games than Lin to be honest - it happens. Talk about no training camp, the kid had no anything before being thrown in there. When you see a young talent like Lin play and play EXTREMELY well as a rookie, you can't overlook that - and he is playing a very difficult position at that.

Man, after suffering through so many years as a Knicks fan, I find it hard to believe that so many people are not talking about the specialness he brought - making this into a mechanistic argument that misses so much and also avoids the obvious. You can't quantify special.

This is real simple:

Eyes don't lie. We saw something in that kid that we hadn't seen in a Knicks player in a LOOOOOOOONG time. It was special. It isn't worth breaking down into stats (thought they were very good). Lin had IT. All the hate and rationalization isn't going to take what we saw away. Break it down into stats, into logic, etc. Lin is special. And Dolan is a moron.

The key word here is "appeared". And you mentioned Melo - that you "remembered" that he had "more bad games".

Lin shot 34% against > .500 competion while Melo shot 46%.

I know many do not care for stats, especially when what they are looking at "appears" to be magical. I understand this concept/argument and used it many times in my discussion with Bonn1997. However, being fair and balanced, it can't be discounted since stats don't lie.

While I openly admitted to my magical feeling with Lin during the Linsanity stretch, the stats cannot be discounted, especially such an important one. Lin appeared to play well against the teams other than Miami however, that was not the case an appearances and magic can be misleading.

One has to be open minded in their overall assessment and not use emotion as a gauge.

While Lin might have a big upside, he remains unproven. He will have this season to prove himself so we will certainly see shortly if he can be a consistent good player.

My take does not belittle what he has done.

carmelo's playoff record 16-36

can you win... that is what I am concerned with... if you shoot 34% against above .500 comp but still win, then that is all that matters..

Nice. Winning is about your team, you need to play well to help with that. But I am sure you know that even with your blind hate.

It's nice to be able to choose when to be blind.

la la land must be a fun place. I need to take an excursion ... :-)

16-36 bro.. nothing more to say...

Shocking that you have nothing more to say!

How did Melo play in those 36 losses?

The fact of the matter is that the game of basketball will always and forever be a team sport. Players have great games and lose but the loss comes as a team not as an individual. Lossing a game does not make the player who played a great game a loser. Just means that the player played well but the team didn't. Nothing more nothing less.

no it is not shocking, that is my point.. sometimes stats like shooting .34% vs teams above .500 don't tell the whole story.. lin was a catalyst, he was a playmaker and a leader on the floor.... and he showed signs of being a winner, regardless of how well he shot...

doesn't matter how carmelo played in those 36 losses,if he played well and still went 16-36 is that any better than playing bad in those losses.... maybe his style of play just doesn't produce winning ball.. that is the key.

I think this is a key point, at least with Lin.

When we talk of a player making others better, what do we mean? It isn't clear but I think raising the whole teams energy, emotion, game, motivation, etc. is a big part of it. Lin caused the team to rise to another level. I don't want to come off as anti-Melo, as I like the guy to a point. But I wouldn't say he does what Lin does to the team, at least not in the same capacity of "team". Yeah, Melo can carry a team and occasionally make great passes. Sort of like Stat can carry a team if he is on as well. But night in and night out, only a few players cause those around them's game to rise up, instead of sitting there and watching.

So, Lin might have had some poorer numbers against better teams, but if we are winning, what does that tell you? What does it tell you if a player puts up great numbers but the team loses? I will choose the former, every time, as it is a team game. And related, Lin had that knee bothering him sometime after the Dallas game. You could see it in his play. So, in large part to base an argument on a poor shooting % when the player was not only clearly playing hurt but also thrown into a situation and clearly taxed from waaaay too many minutes minutes, is just missing the point and what the player in Lin, brought.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. Albert Einstein
gunsnewing
Posts: 55076
Alba Posts: 5
Joined: 2/24/2002
Member: #215
USA
9/12/2012  5:15 AM
obviously Lin's numbers went down under MDA as well. Its what naturally happens when your 2 stars return to the lineup. Melo and Amare. Some of you guys really amaze me. And obviously PG numbers are inflated under MDA. Only Lin's numbers were inflated to over 25 & 8 because he was a special talent
holfresh
Posts: 38679
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Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081

9/12/2012  7:06 AM
earthmansurfer wrote:
tkf wrote:
CashMoney wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:

ALL TOP TIER PG's destroy each other.. what is your point?

Please show me videos of Deron Willians, Rondo and CP3 getting stripped by a simple 1v1 full court or half court press multiple times in the same game this past season. This is an extreme problem. The fact that you kids poo poo this is laughable and ridiculous.

extreme problem? other than that game vs miami, where else has that happened? I think the only thing here that is extreme, is your criticism of lin.. full sour grapes mode bro..

It would have been nice or a better gauge if Lin shot better than 34% against > .500 competition.

the most important stats is 8-1.. he saved the knicks season. he was dynamic and capture the NBA world.....

useless stats do you no favors here. .in the end, the key is to win, get your guys out on top.... that requires a lot of leadership.. which is why the knicks have stunk for years, no leadership, doesn't matter if you can dunk out of your mind, wear headbands or call yourself the "best pure scorer" rofl.. just win baby.. .win.. lin did that...

Lin did that against shytty teams while he was still unknown. When he became known, he was below average. There are many reasons or contributors that were in play here so I am not judging him (yet). I would have liked him back to see how he might have developed but crowning him at this point or de-crowning him is silly. Was it magical? Certainly and I cannot remember a more magical 10 game stretch in any sport but he is at this point a VERY unknown commodity.

And, if you find a stat that displays a players ability to shine or not shine against the better competition useless then you are completely missing the boat and that is maybe why you never bring stats into your arguments.

For the most part, Lin appeared to play well verse most teams but Miami. I'll give him, or any player, that pass. I remember Stat and Melo having more bad games than Lin to be honest - it happens. Talk about no training camp, the kid had no anything before being thrown in there. When you see a young talent like Lin play and play EXTREMELY well as a rookie, you can't overlook that - and he is playing a very difficult position at that.

Man, after suffering through so many years as a Knicks fan, I find it hard to believe that so many people are not talking about the specialness he brought - making this into a mechanistic argument that misses so much and also avoids the obvious. You can't quantify special.

This is real simple:

Eyes don't lie. We saw something in that kid that we hadn't seen in a Knicks player in a LOOOOOOOONG time. It was special. It isn't worth breaking down into stats (thought they were very good). Lin had IT. All the hate and rationalization isn't going to take what we saw away. Break it down into stats, into logic, etc. Lin is special. And Dolan is a moron.

The key word here is "appeared". And you mentioned Melo - that you "remembered" that he had "more bad games".

Lin shot 34% against > .500 competion while Melo shot 46%.

I know many do not care for stats, especially when what they are looking at "appears" to be magical. I understand this concept/argument and used it many times in my discussion with Bonn1997. However, being fair and balanced, it can't be discounted since stats don't lie.

While I openly admitted to my magical feeling with Lin during the Linsanity stretch, the stats cannot be discounted, especially such an important one. Lin appeared to play well against the teams other than Miami however, that was not the case an appearances and magic can be misleading.

One has to be open minded in their overall assessment and not use emotion as a gauge.

While Lin might have a big upside, he remains unproven. He will have this season to prove himself so we will certainly see shortly if he can be a consistent good player.

My take does not belittle what he has done.

carmelo's playoff record 16-36

can you win... that is what I am concerned with... if you shoot 34% against above .500 comp but still win, then that is all that matters..

Nice. Winning is about your team, you need to play well to help with that. But I am sure you know that even with your blind hate.

It's nice to be able to choose when to be blind.

la la land must be a fun place. I need to take an excursion ... :-)

16-36 bro.. nothing more to say...

Shocking that you have nothing more to say!

How did Melo play in those 36 losses?

The fact of the matter is that the game of basketball will always and forever be a team sport. Players have great games and lose but the loss comes as a team not as an individual. Lossing a game does not make the player who played a great game a loser. Just means that the player played well but the team didn't. Nothing more nothing less.

no it is not shocking, that is my point.. sometimes stats like shooting .34% vs teams above .500 don't tell the whole story.. lin was a catalyst, he was a playmaker and a leader on the floor.... and he showed signs of being a winner, regardless of how well he shot...

doesn't matter how carmelo played in those 36 losses,if he played well and still went 16-36 is that any better than playing bad in those losses.... maybe his style of play just doesn't produce winning ball.. that is the key.

I think this is a key point, at least with Lin.

When we talk of a player making others better, what do we mean? It isn't clear but I think raising the whole teams energy, emotion, game, motivation, etc. is a big part of it. Lin caused the team to rise to another level. I don't want to come off as anti-Melo, as I like the guy to a point. But I wouldn't say he does what Lin does to the team, at least not in the same capacity of "team". Yeah, Melo can carry a team and occasionally make great passes. Sort of like Stat can carry a team if he is on as well. But night in and night out, only a few players cause those around them's game to rise up, instead of sitting there and watching.

So, Lin might have had some poorer numbers against better teams, but if we are winning, what does that tell you? What does it tell you if a player puts up great numbers but the team loses? I will choose the former, every time, as it is a team game. And related, Lin had that knee bothering him sometime after the Dallas game. You could see it in his play. So, in large part to base an argument on a poor shooting % when the player was not only clearly playing hurt but also thrown into a situation and clearly taxed from waaaay too many minutes minutes, is just missing the point and what the player in Lin, brought.

Melo is a hired gun, we got him to score the ball not to be Magic Johnson....Also, how come Lin didn't make Melo and Amare better, the very two guys if u make better it matters a hell of a lot.???

Nalod
Posts: 71242
Alba Posts: 155
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
9/12/2012  7:09 AM
limpidgimp wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:Eyes don't lie. We saw something in that kid that we hadn't seen in a Knicks player in a LOOOOOOOONG time. It was special. It isn't worth breaking down into stats (thought they were very good). Lin had IT. All the hate and rationalization isn't going to take what we saw away. Break it down into stats, into logic, etc. Lin is special. And Dolan is a moron.

I feel the same way. But others who don't see that same quality, well, it's very unlikely you can change their minds by talking about it. In most such discussions, people stick to concrete things like stats and plays and so on because there's the assumption that that is the common language and shared stuff by which we can come together and converse about it reasonably, and persuade others, and acknowledge who is right and who is wrong. But there is a huge emotional component that is connected to the sense of seeing something special. All the stats aren't really the language to talk about it; it just circles around without getting there. That's why I don't really get into the convincing game. I'm not trying to recreate my experience of it for another person, nor do I need the other person to confirm what I myself see.

I'm all for talking stats and doing analysis, but there are some conversations in which you know beforehand you aren't changing anyone's mind no matter what you say right or how persuasive you are. It's just bizarre how I've never seen anything like this except when people talk about Lin. Even apparently obvious points can end up being polarizing and controversial.

Well Said.

DurzoBlint
Posts: 23067
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 7/10/2006
Member: #1152
USA
9/12/2012  7:24 AM
wow, 20pages and going...bunch of psychos up in here
the fact that you can't even have an unrelated thread without some tool here bringing him up make me think that rational minds are few and far between. Bunch of emotionally weak, angst riddled people. I mean, how many times can you argue the same shyt
mrKnickShot
Posts: 28157
Alba Posts: 16
Joined: 5/3/2011
Member: #3553

9/12/2012  9:25 AM
earthmansurfer wrote:
tkf wrote:
CashMoney wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:

ALL TOP TIER PG's destroy each other.. what is your point?

Please show me videos of Deron Willians, Rondo and CP3 getting stripped by a simple 1v1 full court or half court press multiple times in the same game this past season. This is an extreme problem. The fact that you kids poo poo this is laughable and ridiculous.

extreme problem? other than that game vs miami, where else has that happened? I think the only thing here that is extreme, is your criticism of lin.. full sour grapes mode bro..

It would have been nice or a better gauge if Lin shot better than 34% against > .500 competition.

the most important stats is 8-1.. he saved the knicks season. he was dynamic and capture the NBA world.....

useless stats do you no favors here. .in the end, the key is to win, get your guys out on top.... that requires a lot of leadership.. which is why the knicks have stunk for years, no leadership, doesn't matter if you can dunk out of your mind, wear headbands or call yourself the "best pure scorer" rofl.. just win baby.. .win.. lin did that...

Lin did that against shytty teams while he was still unknown. When he became known, he was below average. There are many reasons or contributors that were in play here so I am not judging him (yet). I would have liked him back to see how he might have developed but crowning him at this point or de-crowning him is silly. Was it magical? Certainly and I cannot remember a more magical 10 game stretch in any sport but he is at this point a VERY unknown commodity.

And, if you find a stat that displays a players ability to shine or not shine against the better competition useless then you are completely missing the boat and that is maybe why you never bring stats into your arguments.

For the most part, Lin appeared to play well verse most teams but Miami. I'll give him, or any player, that pass. I remember Stat and Melo having more bad games than Lin to be honest - it happens. Talk about no training camp, the kid had no anything before being thrown in there. When you see a young talent like Lin play and play EXTREMELY well as a rookie, you can't overlook that - and he is playing a very difficult position at that.

Man, after suffering through so many years as a Knicks fan, I find it hard to believe that so many people are not talking about the specialness he brought - making this into a mechanistic argument that misses so much and also avoids the obvious. You can't quantify special.

This is real simple:

Eyes don't lie. We saw something in that kid that we hadn't seen in a Knicks player in a LOOOOOOOONG time. It was special. It isn't worth breaking down into stats (thought they were very good). Lin had IT. All the hate and rationalization isn't going to take what we saw away. Break it down into stats, into logic, etc. Lin is special. And Dolan is a moron.

The key word here is "appeared". And you mentioned Melo - that you "remembered" that he had "more bad games".

Lin shot 34% against > .500 competion while Melo shot 46%.

I know many do not care for stats, especially when what they are looking at "appears" to be magical. I understand this concept/argument and used it many times in my discussion with Bonn1997. However, being fair and balanced, it can't be discounted since stats don't lie.

While I openly admitted to my magical feeling with Lin during the Linsanity stretch, the stats cannot be discounted, especially such an important one. Lin appeared to play well against the teams other than Miami however, that was not the case an appearances and magic can be misleading.

One has to be open minded in their overall assessment and not use emotion as a gauge.

While Lin might have a big upside, he remains unproven. He will have this season to prove himself so we will certainly see shortly if he can be a consistent good player.

My take does not belittle what he has done.

carmelo's playoff record 16-36

can you win... that is what I am concerned with... if you shoot 34% against above .500 comp but still win, then that is all that matters..

Nice. Winning is about your team, you need to play well to help with that. But I am sure you know that even with your blind hate.

It's nice to be able to choose when to be blind.

la la land must be a fun place. I need to take an excursion ... :-)

16-36 bro.. nothing more to say...

Shocking that you have nothing more to say!

How did Melo play in those 36 losses?

The fact of the matter is that the game of basketball will always and forever be a team sport. Players have great games and lose but the loss comes as a team not as an individual. Lossing a game does not make the player who played a great game a loser. Just means that the player played well but the team didn't. Nothing more nothing less.

no it is not shocking, that is my point.. sometimes stats like shooting .34% vs teams above .500 don't tell the whole story.. lin was a catalyst, he was a playmaker and a leader on the floor.... and he showed signs of being a winner, regardless of how well he shot...

doesn't matter how carmelo played in those 36 losses,if he played well and still went 16-36 is that any better than playing bad in those losses.... maybe his style of play just doesn't produce winning ball.. that is the key.

I think this is a key point, at least with Lin.

When we talk of a player making others better, what do we mean? It isn't clear but I think raising the whole teams energy, emotion, game, motivation, etc. is a big part of it. Lin caused the team to rise to another level. I don't want to come off as anti-Melo, as I like the guy to a point. But I wouldn't say he does what Lin does to the team, at least not in the same capacity of "team". Yeah, Melo can carry a team and occasionally make great passes. Sort of like Stat can carry a team if he is on as well. But night in and night out, only a few players cause those around them's game to rise up, instead of sitting there and watching.

So, Lin might have had some poorer numbers against better teams, but if we are winning, what does that tell you? What does it tell you if a player puts up great numbers but the team loses? I will choose the former, every time, as it is a team game. And related, Lin had that knee bothering him sometime after the Dallas game. You could see it in his play. So, in large part to base an argument on a poor shooting % when the player was not only clearly playing hurt but also thrown into a situation and clearly taxed from waaaay too many minutes minutes, is just missing the point and what the player in Lin, brought.

We were mostly not WINNING against the better teams - so 34% percent actually hurt the team quite badly.

I did NOT know that playing hurt can be used as an excuse for not playing/shooting well.

You wrote a fluff piece which was very endearing but I don't really see the substance. We all knew that Lin was magical in that initial run. If you can't see beyond that because you want to savior your "first time", thats ok but not necessarily open minded and logical.

Logic is:

I loved Lin and was as excited and ecstatic as anyone. I saw great moments and I also saw a bit of a collapse. I saw him beat up weak competition which is far from easy while I saw him get beat up by the better competition. I saw flashes of greatness as well as moments of mediocrity. I saw peaks and valleys, I saw everything in just 25 games.

I NEED TO SEE MORE!

Unfortunately it won't be as Knick.

tkf
Posts: 36487
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #87
9/12/2012  10:16 AM
CashMoney wrote:
tkf wrote:
CashMoney wrote:
tkf wrote:
CashMoney wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:

ALL TOP TIER PG's destroy each other.. what is your point?

Please show me videos of Deron Willians, Rondo and CP3 getting stripped by a simple 1v1 full court or half court press multiple times in the same game this past season. This is an extreme problem. The fact that you kids poo poo this is laughable and ridiculous.

extreme problem? other than that game vs miami, where else has that happened? I think the only thing here that is extreme, is your criticism of lin.. full sour grapes mode bro..

It would have been nice or a better gauge if Lin shot better than 34% against > .500 competition.

the most important stats is 8-1.. he saved the knicks season. he was dynamic and capture the NBA world.....

useless stats do you no favors here. .in the end, the key is to win, get your guys out on top.... that requires a lot of leadership.. which is why the knicks have stunk for years, no leadership, doesn't matter if you can dunk out of your mind, wear headbands or call yourself the "best pure scorer" rofl.. just win baby.. .win.. lin did that...

Lin did that against shytty teams while he was still unknown. When he became known, he was below average. There are many reasons or contributors that were in play here so I am not judging him (yet). I would have liked him back to see how he might have developed but crowning him at this point or de-crowning him is silly. Was it magical? Certainly and I cannot remember a more magical 10 game stretch in any sport but he is at this point a VERY unknown commodity.

And, if you find a stat that displays a players ability to shine or not shine against the better competition useless then you are completely missing the boat and that is maybe why you never bring stats into your arguments.

For the most part, Lin appeared to play well verse most teams but Miami. I'll give him, or any player, that pass. I remember Stat and Melo having more bad games than Lin to be honest - it happens. Talk about no training camp, the kid had no anything before being thrown in there. When you see a young talent like Lin play and play EXTREMELY well as a rookie, you can't overlook that - and he is playing a very difficult position at that.

Man, after suffering through so many years as a Knicks fan, I find it hard to believe that so many people are not talking about the specialness he brought - making this into a mechanistic argument that misses so much and also avoids the obvious. You can't quantify special.

This is real simple:

Eyes don't lie. We saw something in that kid that we hadn't seen in a Knicks player in a LOOOOOOOONG time. It was special. It isn't worth breaking down into stats (thought they were very good). Lin had IT. All the hate and rationalization isn't going to take what we saw away. Break it down into stats, into logic, etc. Lin is special. And Dolan is a moron.

The key word here is "appeared". And you mentioned Melo - that you "remembered" that he had "more bad games".

Lin shot 34% against > .500 competion while Melo shot 46%.

I know many do not care for stats, especially when what they are looking at "appears" to be magical. I understand this concept/argument and used it many times in my discussion with Bonn1997. However, being fair and balanced, it can't be discounted since stats don't lie.

While I openly admitted to my magical feeling with Lin during the Linsanity stretch, the stats cannot be discounted, especially such an important one. Lin appeared to play well against the teams other than Miami however, that was not the case an appearances and magic can be misleading.

One has to be open minded in their overall assessment and not use emotion as a gauge.

While Lin might have a big upside, he remains unproven. He will have this season to prove himself so we will certainly see shortly if he can be a consistent good player.

My take does not belittle what he has done.

carmelo's playoff record 16-36

can you win... that is what I am concerned with... if you shoot 34% against above .500 comp but still win, then that is all that matters..

Nice. Winning is about your team, you need to play well to help with that. But I am sure you know that even with your blind hate.

It's nice to be able to choose when to be blind.

la la land must be a fun place. I need to take an excursion ... :-)

16-36 bro.. nothing more to say...

Shocking that you have nothing more to say!

How did Melo play in those 36 losses?

The fact of the matter is that the game of basketball will always and forever be a team sport. Players have great games and lose but the loss comes as a team not as an individual. Lossing a game does not make the player who played a great game a loser. Just means that the player played well but the team didn't. Nothing more nothing less.

no it is not shocking, that is my point.. sometimes stats like shooting .34% vs teams above .500 don't tell the whole story.. lin was a catalyst, he was a playmaker and a leader on the floor.... and he showed signs of being a winner, regardless of how well he shot...

doesn't matter how carmelo played in those 36 losses,if he played well and still went 16-36 is that any better than playing bad in those losses.... maybe his style of play just doesn't produce winning ball.. that is the key.

Maybe, just maybe Melo's record was indicative of the teams he played on.

There is no doubt that Lin has good qualities as a player but also has deficiencies as a player.

lin has some improving to do, no one denies that. what infuriates me with knicks fans is now that he is gone, all of a sudden lin wasn't a good player, the knicks are now financially responsible, dolan and "grunny".. LOL.. are geniuses, and what we saw with lin was an aberration because teams like the lakers who use to just kick our asses on national TV were not prepared for lin.... that is a joke..

as far as melo, I am tired of the excuses, it is always some other reason as to his failures.. very tiring...

Lin is a good player but how good and $14.8 million good remains to be seen. There is no doubt that the kid can play but I want to see what he does in a full season as a marked man. PG's out West are no joke. We can go 100% nuts if he blows up next season but I hope he doesn't. It's not that I don't like him, it's just that I hope the Knicks actually made a right decision.

As far as Melo...I've been a fan since Syracuse and always followed his career and was/am happy that he's wearing the blue and orange. The pressure is now on him big time. Lebron has his ring and Melo is in the line of fire for the media storm. I expect the best season of his career this year.

LIN PLayed vs rondo and deron... not sure you are going to get much better than that, and he has done well. I think what we are seeing is the people setting the bar to superstar elite levels for lin, AND then knocking him for not doing so 25 games into what is his rookie year.. Lin had an amazing run, but anyone would or should understand that the level he was playing at was almost impossible for the best players to maintain... heck we have proof of that on our own team with our high dollar players...

the 14.8 million is deceiving as he will be paid close to 5 mil over the first two years which may prove to be a bargain.. we can try to talk ourselves out of it, but I think we foolishly and in true knick fashion pissed away at a potential dynamic player..... not saying lin will be a HOF player, or a superstar, but he did have that "it" factor and he had tons of room to improve with the tools to do so... it is sad and honestly a tragic thing in Knick land... given a mulligan by the basketball gods after the years of screw ups and making a trade in which we gave up so much and may go down as one of the worst in knick history, dolan spit back in the basketball gods face..... and crapped on the fans... it is getting to the point where I am questioning how much longer I am going to follow this team the same way.. after 30+ years of being a diehard fan, I am asking myself questions that I never have before..

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Nalod
Posts: 71242
Alba Posts: 155
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
9/12/2012  10:55 AM
if you look at his contract as being worth $8.3mm per over three years its high, but thats the price of a free agent. Lando got a nice premium also. The poison pill is MuthaPhucher to swallow and I get why knicks did not match, but when I watch the team I don't see one of my favorite players from last year.
mrKnickShot
Posts: 28157
Alba Posts: 16
Joined: 5/3/2011
Member: #3553

9/12/2012  10:58 AM
Nalod wrote:if you look at his contract as being worth $8.3mm per over three years its high, but thats the price of a free agent. Lando got a nice premium also. The poison pill is MuthaPhucher to swallow and I get why knicks did not match, but when I watch the team I don't see one of my favorite players from last year.

Nalod!

Perfectly stated.

tkf
Posts: 36487
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #87
9/12/2012  11:20 AM    LAST EDITED: 9/12/2012  11:23 AM


I think this is a key point, at least with Lin.

When we talk of a player making others better, what do we mean? It isn't clear but I think raising the whole teams energy, emotion, game, motivation, etc. is a big part of it. Lin caused the team to rise to another level. I don't want to come off as anti-Melo, as I like the guy to a point. But I wouldn't say he does what Lin does to the team, at least not in the same capacity of "team". Yeah, Melo can carry a team and occasionally make great passes. Sort of like Stat can carry a team if he is on as well. But night in and night out, only a few players cause those around them's game to rise up, instead of sitting there and watching.

So, Lin might have had some poorer numbers against better teams, but if we are winning, what does that tell you? What does it tell you if a player puts up great numbers but the team loses? I will choose the former, every time, as it is a team game. And related, Lin had that knee bothering him sometime after the Dallas game. You could see it in his play. So, in large part to base an argument on a poor shooting % when the player was not only clearly playing hurt but also thrown into a situation and clearly taxed from waaaay too many minutes minutes, is just missing the point and what the player in Lin, brought.

exactly, I look at what lin did for guys like jeffries and chandler and novak especially and I am like, OK, this is the kind of guy that guys play for....

during the win streak, we saw the emergence of guys like novak, fields and chandler were living in lob city.... we got production from walker, shump was able to be a factor on offense, and jared jeffries actually looked like a competent offensive ball player... it seemed as if lin inspired great play from his teamates and this is the type of guy you want to hold onto...

so when I see stats like lin shot .34% vs teams over .500 I want to know is did they win or lose? better yet, lets look at that for a minute.. lin had 3 bad shooting games verses above .500 teams, one was vs the sixers, the mavs( a team he destroyed the week before) and the horrible 1-11 game vs the heat, I am sure if you take out that horrible miami game, it changes things dramatically.

but I would also like to touch on this point, and this is not to compare him to the great jason kidd, but it is worth noting... Kidd came to the nets in 2001-2002, the nets went from 26 wins the year before to 52 wins and the nba finals the very year kidd joined.. talk about impact.. this is what i want to see from a player you give up the farm for!! here were kidds stats thatyear... 14ppg/10assists/ 7boards and 3.5 turnovers a game... he shot 39% from the floor and 32% from 3 point land.. not even 40% from the floor.. Yet he was one of the best players in the league he finished second that year, and it was close, to Duncan in MVP votes....

Winning matters!!!!! leading men matters!!! results matter!!! lin showed flashes of that "it" factor.. guys were willing to run through walls for kidd... lin had jeffries, novak, shumpert,chandler, fields playing that same way!

telling me you are the best pure scorer in the league and never won a scoring title is laughable, and yes, I don't like carmelo and it just boils my blood he is on our team and came to our team in the fashion he did... Listen, melo is a very good allstar player who when on a streak can score the ball as well as anyone... but for me, that is where it stops.. as a BALL PLAYER, he leaves little to be desired, as a person, I think he is a creep...

sorry for being long winded.. LOL

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
Posts: 36487
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #87
9/12/2012  11:27 AM
mrKnickShot wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
tkf wrote:
CashMoney wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:

ALL TOP TIER PG's destroy each other.. what is your point?

Please show me videos of Deron Willians, Rondo and CP3 getting stripped by a simple 1v1 full court or half court press multiple times in the same game this past season. This is an extreme problem. The fact that you kids poo poo this is laughable and ridiculous.

extreme problem? other than that game vs miami, where else has that happened? I think the only thing here that is extreme, is your criticism of lin.. full sour grapes mode bro..

It would have been nice or a better gauge if Lin shot better than 34% against > .500 competition.

the most important stats is 8-1.. he saved the knicks season. he was dynamic and capture the NBA world.....

useless stats do you no favors here. .in the end, the key is to win, get your guys out on top.... that requires a lot of leadership.. which is why the knicks have stunk for years, no leadership, doesn't matter if you can dunk out of your mind, wear headbands or call yourself the "best pure scorer" rofl.. just win baby.. .win.. lin did that...

Lin did that against shytty teams while he was still unknown. When he became known, he was below average. There are many reasons or contributors that were in play here so I am not judging him (yet). I would have liked him back to see how he might have developed but crowning him at this point or de-crowning him is silly. Was it magical? Certainly and I cannot remember a more magical 10 game stretch in any sport but he is at this point a VERY unknown commodity.

And, if you find a stat that displays a players ability to shine or not shine against the better competition useless then you are completely missing the boat and that is maybe why you never bring stats into your arguments.

For the most part, Lin appeared to play well verse most teams but Miami. I'll give him, or any player, that pass. I remember Stat and Melo having more bad games than Lin to be honest - it happens. Talk about no training camp, the kid had no anything before being thrown in there. When you see a young talent like Lin play and play EXTREMELY well as a rookie, you can't overlook that - and he is playing a very difficult position at that.

Man, after suffering through so many years as a Knicks fan, I find it hard to believe that so many people are not talking about the specialness he brought - making this into a mechanistic argument that misses so much and also avoids the obvious. You can't quantify special.

This is real simple:

Eyes don't lie. We saw something in that kid that we hadn't seen in a Knicks player in a LOOOOOOOONG time. It was special. It isn't worth breaking down into stats (thought they were very good). Lin had IT. All the hate and rationalization isn't going to take what we saw away. Break it down into stats, into logic, etc. Lin is special. And Dolan is a moron.

The key word here is "appeared". And you mentioned Melo - that you "remembered" that he had "more bad games".

Lin shot 34% against > .500 competion while Melo shot 46%.

I know many do not care for stats, especially when what they are looking at "appears" to be magical. I understand this concept/argument and used it many times in my discussion with Bonn1997. However, being fair and balanced, it can't be discounted since stats don't lie.

While I openly admitted to my magical feeling with Lin during the Linsanity stretch, the stats cannot be discounted, especially such an important one. Lin appeared to play well against the teams other than Miami however, that was not the case an appearances and magic can be misleading.

One has to be open minded in their overall assessment and not use emotion as a gauge.

While Lin might have a big upside, he remains unproven. He will have this season to prove himself so we will certainly see shortly if he can be a consistent good player.

My take does not belittle what he has done.

carmelo's playoff record 16-36

can you win... that is what I am concerned with... if you shoot 34% against above .500 comp but still win, then that is all that matters..

Nice. Winning is about your team, you need to play well to help with that. But I am sure you know that even with your blind hate.

It's nice to be able to choose when to be blind.

la la land must be a fun place. I need to take an excursion ... :-)

16-36 bro.. nothing more to say...

Shocking that you have nothing more to say!

How did Melo play in those 36 losses?

The fact of the matter is that the game of basketball will always and forever be a team sport. Players have great games and lose but the loss comes as a team not as an individual. Lossing a game does not make the player who played a great game a loser. Just means that the player played well but the team didn't. Nothing more nothing less.

no it is not shocking, that is my point.. sometimes stats like shooting .34% vs teams above .500 don't tell the whole story.. lin was a catalyst, he was a playmaker and a leader on the floor.... and he showed signs of being a winner, regardless of how well he shot...

doesn't matter how carmelo played in those 36 losses,if he played well and still went 16-36 is that any better than playing bad in those losses.... maybe his style of play just doesn't produce winning ball.. that is the key.

I think this is a key point, at least with Lin.

When we talk of a player making others better, what do we mean? It isn't clear but I think raising the whole teams energy, emotion, game, motivation, etc. is a big part of it. Lin caused the team to rise to another level. I don't want to come off as anti-Melo, as I like the guy to a point. But I wouldn't say he does what Lin does to the team, at least not in the same capacity of "team". Yeah, Melo can carry a team and occasionally make great passes. Sort of like Stat can carry a team if he is on as well. But night in and night out, only a few players cause those around them's game to rise up, instead of sitting there and watching.

So, Lin might have had some poorer numbers against better teams, but if we are winning, what does that tell you? What does it tell you if a player puts up great numbers but the team loses? I will choose the former, every time, as it is a team game. And related, Lin had that knee bothering him sometime after the Dallas game. You could see it in his play. So, in large part to base an argument on a poor shooting % when the player was not only clearly playing hurt but also thrown into a situation and clearly taxed from waaaay too many minutes minutes, is just missing the point and what the player in Lin, brought.

We were mostly not WINNING against the better teams - so 34% percent actually hurt the team quite badly.

I did NOT know that playing hurt can be used as an excuse for not playing/shooting well.

You wrote a fluff piece which was very endearing but I don't really see the substance. We all knew that Lin was magical in that initial run. If you can't see beyond that because you want to savior your "first time", thats ok but not necessarily open minded and logical.

Logic is:

I loved Lin and was as excited and ecstatic as anyone. I saw great moments and I also saw a bit of a collapse. I saw him beat up weak competition which is far from easy while I saw him get beat up by the better competition. I saw flashes of greatness as well as moments of mediocrity. I saw peaks and valleys, I saw everything in just 25 games.

I NEED TO SEE MORE!

Unfortunately it won't be as Knick.

the losing started when mr. kill joy came back, I won't discount that at all... the guy sucks the life out of a team....he has done so with NY, heck he even sucked the life out of amare's game... sadly...

his playoff record is 16-36, if you truly want to see the knicks win a ring, how in the world can you be ok that we are getting rid of players like lin and trading all of our assets for guys like carmelo?

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
tkf
Posts: 36487
Alba Posts: 6
Joined: 8/13/2001
Member: #87
9/12/2012  11:31 AM
holfresh wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
tkf wrote:
CashMoney wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:

ALL TOP TIER PG's destroy each other.. what is your point?

Please show me videos of Deron Willians, Rondo and CP3 getting stripped by a simple 1v1 full court or half court press multiple times in the same game this past season. This is an extreme problem. The fact that you kids poo poo this is laughable and ridiculous.

extreme problem? other than that game vs miami, where else has that happened? I think the only thing here that is extreme, is your criticism of lin.. full sour grapes mode bro..

It would have been nice or a better gauge if Lin shot better than 34% against > .500 competition.

the most important stats is 8-1.. he saved the knicks season. he was dynamic and capture the NBA world.....

useless stats do you no favors here. .in the end, the key is to win, get your guys out on top.... that requires a lot of leadership.. which is why the knicks have stunk for years, no leadership, doesn't matter if you can dunk out of your mind, wear headbands or call yourself the "best pure scorer" rofl.. just win baby.. .win.. lin did that...

Lin did that against shytty teams while he was still unknown. When he became known, he was below average. There are many reasons or contributors that were in play here so I am not judging him (yet). I would have liked him back to see how he might have developed but crowning him at this point or de-crowning him is silly. Was it magical? Certainly and I cannot remember a more magical 10 game stretch in any sport but he is at this point a VERY unknown commodity.

And, if you find a stat that displays a players ability to shine or not shine against the better competition useless then you are completely missing the boat and that is maybe why you never bring stats into your arguments.

For the most part, Lin appeared to play well verse most teams but Miami. I'll give him, or any player, that pass. I remember Stat and Melo having more bad games than Lin to be honest - it happens. Talk about no training camp, the kid had no anything before being thrown in there. When you see a young talent like Lin play and play EXTREMELY well as a rookie, you can't overlook that - and he is playing a very difficult position at that.

Man, after suffering through so many years as a Knicks fan, I find it hard to believe that so many people are not talking about the specialness he brought - making this into a mechanistic argument that misses so much and also avoids the obvious. You can't quantify special.

This is real simple:

Eyes don't lie. We saw something in that kid that we hadn't seen in a Knicks player in a LOOOOOOOONG time. It was special. It isn't worth breaking down into stats (thought they were very good). Lin had IT. All the hate and rationalization isn't going to take what we saw away. Break it down into stats, into logic, etc. Lin is special. And Dolan is a moron.

The key word here is "appeared". And you mentioned Melo - that you "remembered" that he had "more bad games".

Lin shot 34% against > .500 competion while Melo shot 46%.

I know many do not care for stats, especially when what they are looking at "appears" to be magical. I understand this concept/argument and used it many times in my discussion with Bonn1997. However, being fair and balanced, it can't be discounted since stats don't lie.

While I openly admitted to my magical feeling with Lin during the Linsanity stretch, the stats cannot be discounted, especially such an important one. Lin appeared to play well against the teams other than Miami however, that was not the case an appearances and magic can be misleading.

One has to be open minded in their overall assessment and not use emotion as a gauge.

While Lin might have a big upside, he remains unproven. He will have this season to prove himself so we will certainly see shortly if he can be a consistent good player.

My take does not belittle what he has done.

carmelo's playoff record 16-36

can you win... that is what I am concerned with... if you shoot 34% against above .500 comp but still win, then that is all that matters..

Nice. Winning is about your team, you need to play well to help with that. But I am sure you know that even with your blind hate.

It's nice to be able to choose when to be blind.

la la land must be a fun place. I need to take an excursion ... :-)

16-36 bro.. nothing more to say...

Shocking that you have nothing more to say!

How did Melo play in those 36 losses?

The fact of the matter is that the game of basketball will always and forever be a team sport. Players have great games and lose but the loss comes as a team not as an individual. Lossing a game does not make the player who played a great game a loser. Just means that the player played well but the team didn't. Nothing more nothing less.

no it is not shocking, that is my point.. sometimes stats like shooting .34% vs teams above .500 don't tell the whole story.. lin was a catalyst, he was a playmaker and a leader on the floor.... and he showed signs of being a winner, regardless of how well he shot...

doesn't matter how carmelo played in those 36 losses,if he played well and still went 16-36 is that any better than playing bad in those losses.... maybe his style of play just doesn't produce winning ball.. that is the key.

I think this is a key point, at least with Lin.

When we talk of a player making others better, what do we mean? It isn't clear but I think raising the whole teams energy, emotion, game, motivation, etc. is a big part of it. Lin caused the team to rise to another level. I don't want to come off as anti-Melo, as I like the guy to a point. But I wouldn't say he does what Lin does to the team, at least not in the same capacity of "team". Yeah, Melo can carry a team and occasionally make great passes. Sort of like Stat can carry a team if he is on as well. But night in and night out, only a few players cause those around them's game to rise up, instead of sitting there and watching.

So, Lin might have had some poorer numbers against better teams, but if we are winning, what does that tell you? What does it tell you if a player puts up great numbers but the team loses? I will choose the former, every time, as it is a team game. And related, Lin had that knee bothering him sometime after the Dallas game. You could see it in his play. So, in large part to base an argument on a poor shooting % when the player was not only clearly playing hurt but also thrown into a situation and clearly taxed from waaaay too many minutes minutes, is just missing the point and what the player in Lin, brought.

Melo is a hired gun, we got him to score the ball not to be Magic Johnson....Also, how come Lin didn't make Melo and Amare better, the very two guys if u make better it matters a hell of a lot.???

and you never,ever pay that much for a hired gun if all he does is score, and is not the very best at it in the league... that is my point... lebron james is the fastest gun in the east, why go out and hire a gun fighter who is slower at the draw? you need to get a posse.. a posse of guys who can combined beat this gunfighter.... we tossed all of the towns money from the coffer at this guy, and for what? small forwards who do nothing but score are not the guys you build around...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081

9/12/2012  12:16 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/12/2012  12:35 PM
tkf wrote:
holfresh wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
tkf wrote:
CashMoney wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:

ALL TOP TIER PG's destroy each other.. what is your point?

Please show me videos of Deron Willians, Rondo and CP3 getting stripped by a simple 1v1 full court or half court press multiple times in the same game this past season. This is an extreme problem. The fact that you kids poo poo this is laughable and ridiculous.

extreme problem? other than that game vs miami, where else has that happened? I think the only thing here that is extreme, is your criticism of lin.. full sour grapes mode bro..

It would have been nice or a better gauge if Lin shot better than 34% against > .500 competition.

the most important stats is 8-1.. he saved the knicks season. he was dynamic and capture the NBA world.....

useless stats do you no favors here. .in the end, the key is to win, get your guys out on top.... that requires a lot of leadership.. which is why the knicks have stunk for years, no leadership, doesn't matter if you can dunk out of your mind, wear headbands or call yourself the "best pure scorer" rofl.. just win baby.. .win.. lin did that...

Lin did that against shytty teams while he was still unknown. When he became known, he was below average. There are many reasons or contributors that were in play here so I am not judging him (yet). I would have liked him back to see how he might have developed but crowning him at this point or de-crowning him is silly. Was it magical? Certainly and I cannot remember a more magical 10 game stretch in any sport but he is at this point a VERY unknown commodity.

And, if you find a stat that displays a players ability to shine or not shine against the better competition useless then you are completely missing the boat and that is maybe why you never bring stats into your arguments.

For the most part, Lin appeared to play well verse most teams but Miami. I'll give him, or any player, that pass. I remember Stat and Melo having more bad games than Lin to be honest - it happens. Talk about no training camp, the kid had no anything before being thrown in there. When you see a young talent like Lin play and play EXTREMELY well as a rookie, you can't overlook that - and he is playing a very difficult position at that.

Man, after suffering through so many years as a Knicks fan, I find it hard to believe that so many people are not talking about the specialness he brought - making this into a mechanistic argument that misses so much and also avoids the obvious. You can't quantify special.

This is real simple:

Eyes don't lie. We saw something in that kid that we hadn't seen in a Knicks player in a LOOOOOOOONG time. It was special. It isn't worth breaking down into stats (thought they were very good). Lin had IT. All the hate and rationalization isn't going to take what we saw away. Break it down into stats, into logic, etc. Lin is special. And Dolan is a moron.

The key word here is "appeared". And you mentioned Melo - that you "remembered" that he had "more bad games".

Lin shot 34% against > .500 competion while Melo shot 46%.

I know many do not care for stats, especially when what they are looking at "appears" to be magical. I understand this concept/argument and used it many times in my discussion with Bonn1997. However, being fair and balanced, it can't be discounted since stats don't lie.

While I openly admitted to my magical feeling with Lin during the Linsanity stretch, the stats cannot be discounted, especially such an important one. Lin appeared to play well against the teams other than Miami however, that was not the case an appearances and magic can be misleading.

One has to be open minded in their overall assessment and not use emotion as a gauge.

While Lin might have a big upside, he remains unproven. He will have this season to prove himself so we will certainly see shortly if he can be a consistent good player.

My take does not belittle what he has done.

carmelo's playoff record 16-36

can you win... that is what I am concerned with... if you shoot 34% against above .500 comp but still win, then that is all that matters..

Nice. Winning is about your team, you need to play well to help with that. But I am sure you know that even with your blind hate.

It's nice to be able to choose when to be blind.

la la land must be a fun place. I need to take an excursion ... :-)

16-36 bro.. nothing more to say...

Shocking that you have nothing more to say!

How did Melo play in those 36 losses?

The fact of the matter is that the game of basketball will always and forever be a team sport. Players have great games and lose but the loss comes as a team not as an individual. Lossing a game does not make the player who played a great game a loser. Just means that the player played well but the team didn't. Nothing more nothing less.

no it is not shocking, that is my point.. sometimes stats like shooting .34% vs teams above .500 don't tell the whole story.. lin was a catalyst, he was a playmaker and a leader on the floor.... and he showed signs of being a winner, regardless of how well he shot...

doesn't matter how carmelo played in those 36 losses,if he played well and still went 16-36 is that any better than playing bad in those losses.... maybe his style of play just doesn't produce winning ball.. that is the key.

I think this is a key point, at least with Lin.

When we talk of a player making others better, what do we mean? It isn't clear but I think raising the whole teams energy, emotion, game, motivation, etc. is a big part of it. Lin caused the team to rise to another level. I don't want to come off as anti-Melo, as I like the guy to a point. But I wouldn't say he does what Lin does to the team, at least not in the same capacity of "team". Yeah, Melo can carry a team and occasionally make great passes. Sort of like Stat can carry a team if he is on as well. But night in and night out, only a few players cause those around them's game to rise up, instead of sitting there and watching.

So, Lin might have had some poorer numbers against better teams, but if we are winning, what does that tell you? What does it tell you if a player puts up great numbers but the team loses? I will choose the former, every time, as it is a team game. And related, Lin had that knee bothering him sometime after the Dallas game. You could see it in his play. So, in large part to base an argument on a poor shooting % when the player was not only clearly playing hurt but also thrown into a situation and clearly taxed from waaaay too many minutes minutes, is just missing the point and what the player in Lin, brought.

Melo is a hired gun, we got him to score the ball not to be Magic Johnson....Also, how come Lin didn't make Melo and Amare better, the very two guys if u make better it matters a hell of a lot.???

and you never,ever pay that much for a hired gun if all he does is score, and is not the very best at it in the league... that is my point... lebron james is the fastest gun in the east, why go out and hire a gun fighter who is slower at the draw? you need to get a posse.. a posse of guys who can combined beat this gunfighter.... we tossed all of the towns money from the coffer at this guy, and for what? small forwards who do nothing but score are not the guys you build around...

Bro you are whining and whaling about the Knicks not willing to pay 60 mil in Lin's 3rd year as a ransom...You seem very willing to overpay for Lin, is he the best in the league???...You really want to compare the two...Melo is a scorer yes...He rebounds and closes out games...Last year down the final stretch, commentators were saying he is the best in the sport at closing...Melo is top ten in the NBA..You are nuts...You ar blinded by your love of Lin...Linsanity..All after 8 games, E I G H T!!!!...The kid broke down after 30/35 games two years in a row and needed knee surgery both times...Let's see him finish an NBA season just once before committing 70 mil to an unknown...

Uptown
Posts: 31324
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 4/1/2008
Member: #1883

9/12/2012  12:21 PM
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
tkf wrote:
CashMoney wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
earthmansurfer wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
mrKnickShot wrote:
tkf wrote:
NUPE wrote:
tkf wrote:

ALL TOP TIER PG's destroy each other.. what is your point?

Please show me videos of Deron Willians, Rondo and CP3 getting stripped by a simple 1v1 full court or half court press multiple times in the same game this past season. This is an extreme problem. The fact that you kids poo poo this is laughable and ridiculous.

extreme problem? other than that game vs miami, where else has that happened? I think the only thing here that is extreme, is your criticism of lin.. full sour grapes mode bro..

It would have been nice or a better gauge if Lin shot better than 34% against > .500 competition.

the most important stats is 8-1.. he saved the knicks season. he was dynamic and capture the NBA world.....

useless stats do you no favors here. .in the end, the key is to win, get your guys out on top.... that requires a lot of leadership.. which is why the knicks have stunk for years, no leadership, doesn't matter if you can dunk out of your mind, wear headbands or call yourself the "best pure scorer" rofl.. just win baby.. .win.. lin did that...

Lin did that against shytty teams while he was still unknown. When he became known, he was below average. There are many reasons or contributors that were in play here so I am not judging him (yet). I would have liked him back to see how he might have developed but crowning him at this point or de-crowning him is silly. Was it magical? Certainly and I cannot remember a more magical 10 game stretch in any sport but he is at this point a VERY unknown commodity.

And, if you find a stat that displays a players ability to shine or not shine against the better competition useless then you are completely missing the boat and that is maybe why you never bring stats into your arguments.

For the most part, Lin appeared to play well verse most teams but Miami. I'll give him, or any player, that pass. I remember Stat and Melo having more bad games than Lin to be honest - it happens. Talk about no training camp, the kid had no anything before being thrown in there. When you see a young talent like Lin play and play EXTREMELY well as a rookie, you can't overlook that - and he is playing a very difficult position at that.

Man, after suffering through so many years as a Knicks fan, I find it hard to believe that so many people are not talking about the specialness he brought - making this into a mechanistic argument that misses so much and also avoids the obvious. You can't quantify special.

This is real simple:

Eyes don't lie. We saw something in that kid that we hadn't seen in a Knicks player in a LOOOOOOOONG time. It was special. It isn't worth breaking down into stats (thought they were very good). Lin had IT. All the hate and rationalization isn't going to take what we saw away. Break it down into stats, into logic, etc. Lin is special. And Dolan is a moron.

The key word here is "appeared". And you mentioned Melo - that you "remembered" that he had "more bad games".

Lin shot 34% against > .500 competion while Melo shot 46%.

I know many do not care for stats, especially when what they are looking at "appears" to be magical. I understand this concept/argument and used it many times in my discussion with Bonn1997. However, being fair and balanced, it can't be discounted since stats don't lie.

While I openly admitted to my magical feeling with Lin during the Linsanity stretch, the stats cannot be discounted, especially such an important one. Lin appeared to play well against the teams other than Miami however, that was not the case an appearances and magic can be misleading.

One has to be open minded in their overall assessment and not use emotion as a gauge.

While Lin might have a big upside, he remains unproven. He will have this season to prove himself so we will certainly see shortly if he can be a consistent good player.

My take does not belittle what he has done.

carmelo's playoff record 16-36

can you win... that is what I am concerned with... if you shoot 34% against above .500 comp but still win, then that is all that matters..

Nice. Winning is about your team, you need to play well to help with that. But I am sure you know that even with your blind hate.

It's nice to be able to choose when to be blind.

la la land must be a fun place. I need to take an excursion ... :-)

16-36 bro.. nothing more to say...

Shocking that you have nothing more to say!

How did Melo play in those 36 losses?

The fact of the matter is that the game of basketball will always and forever be a team sport. Players have great games and lose but the loss comes as a team not as an individual. Lossing a game does not make the player who played a great game a loser. Just means that the player played well but the team didn't. Nothing more nothing less.

no it is not shocking, that is my point.. sometimes stats like shooting .34% vs teams above .500 don't tell the whole story.. lin was a catalyst, he was a playmaker and a leader on the floor.... and he showed signs of being a winner, regardless of how well he shot...

doesn't matter how carmelo played in those 36 losses,if he played well and still went 16-36 is that any better than playing bad in those losses.... maybe his style of play just doesn't produce winning ball.. that is the key.

I think this is a key point, at least with Lin.

When we talk of a player making others better, what do we mean? It isn't clear but I think raising the whole teams energy, emotion, game, motivation, etc. is a big part of it. Lin caused the team to rise to another level. I don't want to come off as anti-Melo, as I like the guy to a point. But I wouldn't say he does what Lin does to the team, at least not in the same capacity of "team". Yeah, Melo can carry a team and occasionally make great passes. Sort of like Stat can carry a team if he is on as well. But night in and night out, only a few players cause those around them's game to rise up, instead of sitting there and watching.

So, Lin might have had some poorer numbers against better teams, but if we are winning, what does that tell you? What does it tell you if a player puts up great numbers but the team loses? I will choose the former, every time, as it is a team game. And related, Lin had that knee bothering him sometime after the Dallas game. You could see it in his play. So, in large part to base an argument on a poor shooting % when the player was not only clearly playing hurt but also thrown into a situation and clearly taxed from waaaay too many minutes minutes, is just missing the point and what the player in Lin, brought.

We were mostly not WINNING against the better teams - so 34% percent actually hurt the team quite badly.

I did NOT know that playing hurt can be used as an excuse for not playing/shooting well.

You wrote a fluff piece which was very endearing but I don't really see the substance. We all knew that Lin was magical in that initial run. If you can't see beyond that because you want to savior your "first time", thats ok but not necessarily open minded and logical.

Logic is:

I loved Lin and was as excited and ecstatic as anyone. I saw great moments and I also saw a bit of a collapse. I saw him beat up weak competition which is far from easy while I saw him get beat up by the better competition. I saw flashes of greatness as well as moments of mediocrity. I saw peaks and valleys, I saw everything in just 25 games.

I NEED TO SEE MORE!

Unfortunately it won't be as Knick.

the losing started when mr. kill joy came back, I won't discount that at all... the guy sucks the life out of a team....he has done so with NY, heck he even sucked the life out of amare's game... sadly...

his playoff record is 16-36, if you truly want to see the knicks win a ring, how in the world can you be ok that we are getting rid of players like lin and trading all of our assets for guys like carmelo?

Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge that "Mr. Kill Joy" was the best player in the NBA for the month of April? "Mr. Kill Joy" lead the Knicks to an 18-6 record most of the them coming with Lin and Stat in street clothes. During this winning streak, he beat the likes of the Bulls and the Celts and yet, according to you it didn't happen because Lin was 8-1. Its funny, you and I were having a conversation, then the moment I added some color to my post and gave Lin some props, you decided not to repond. The reason you didn't reposn is because your posts deal in black-n-white. I'm defending Melo so that must mean I hate Lin, right? No, I dont post that way. I call it the way I see it...Black, White, Blue's and Orange's. Take off the black and white shades sometime....

3G4G
Posts: 23485
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Joined: 9/3/2012
Member: #4333

9/12/2012  12:36 PM
Nalod wrote:if you look at his contract as being worth $8.3mm per over three years its high, but thats the price of a free agent. Lando got a nice premium also. The poison pill is MuthaPhucher to swallow and I get why knicks did not match, but when I watch the team I don't see one of my favorite players from last year.


What I get from a lot the moronic reasoning in this thread is this

If Shumpert comes back and struggles after about 25-30gms then his knee isn't going to get better and we should cut our losses with him

If Amar'e doesn't score from the post after 25-30gms then his time spent with the Dream was an absolute waste and he'll never have a better post game than say a player like Kris Humphries

If Felton doesn't average 13/6 after 25-30gms then he's officially not better than Lin

If we're not in the Top 4 seeds after 25-30gms then we won't be a top seed by the time the season ends

If we don't have an equal or better winning percentage vs the 18-6 finish after 25gms then last year was a fluke

Because according to most here when it comes to Lin his career has been summed up in 25gms

Meanwhile we're still exercising major guesswork and apologizing for Melo after 10yrs not being able to produce appreciably in the Post-Season

10yr vet and essentially a rookie/2yr player are being judged on an uneven playing field. This has to be the only fan base that does this

earthmansurfer
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Member: #858
Germany
9/12/2012  12:36 PM
Holfresh - Where does it say that Melo was signed to be a hired gun? Sounds like wishful, or is that sinful, thinking. I was hoping for a 20 million dollar player. And I do still have hope.
Lin and Stat seemed to play fine together, not great. You do realize Stat played with Nash all these years? I mean to even be having this discussion about a rookie point guard adds some credence to our argument on Lins skills. You are judging him based on coming in after the season started, after having been cut twice and never really having played in the NBA before. Do you see how silly your argument is?

How can anyone make Melo's game better? An ISO player, or rather a "Want to be ISO player." I don't mean that derogatorily - When he got the ball in a good spot from Lin, what did he do? He waited, did 2 juke moves and generally took tough shots. I hope his olympic success taught him to do more catch and shooting.

Also, regarding Lin's contract - the 60 million is not a Lin penalty - it is on the team and of course you don't mention any of the options we have. There are plenty of possibilities for our billionaire owner, one of which is just paying the money - after all, we do have some great players, it's not like it's Jerome James or one of the many other stiffs we have already paid. And we call letting Lin walk financial responsibility? Yeah, suddenly that makes sense. Stat or Melo can be moved and we have other expirings that year as well. How long will the experiment continue? I say if they don't play well together (after a training camp ) that we have to move on, somehow.

Well, let's see what Felton and Kidd can do. I am hoping but we are going to need a miracle (again) and the last one we let walk...

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. Albert Einstein
GustavBahler
Posts: 42864
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9/12/2012  12:37 PM
Uptown, you obviously have not accepted Lin into your life. Can I give you some literature to read?
ChuckBuck
Posts: 28851
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USA
9/12/2012  12:40 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but...

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