Posted by gunsnewing:

Posted by ultknicks524:

Sweeteny hasnt shown anything other than the potential to eat more hamburgers. Lets see him lose some weight and then you can talk about how much potential he has.

Sweetney really showed me a lot the last month and a half of the season. Enough to convince me that he is the best PF and has the greatest value of the bunch, when you take rebounding and post scoring into consideration and hopefully quicker feet on defense after he losses weight.

Posted by gunsnewing:

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by gunsnewing:

Posted by ultknicks524:

Sweeteny hasnt shown anything other than the potential to eat more hamburgers. Lets see him lose some weight and then you can talk about how much potential he has.

Sweetney really showed me a lot the last month and a half of the season. Enough to convince me that he is the best PF and has the greatest value of the bunch, when you take rebounding and post scoring into consideration and hopefully quicker feet on defense after he losses weight.

The only thing I have a problem with is that you act like Sweetney losing weight is a forgone conclusion. Remember at the beginning of this year? Sweetney had lost some weight but look at him now, he looks just as big as he was last year, if not bigger. The guy has a serious weight problem and if he doesnt WANT TO fix it, he's not going too. He needs to get his stomach stapled or something or else he's never going to be more then a 20 minute player off the bench and the Knicks need far more then that from him.

It's not all about Sweetney losing weight. The guy is has a lot of talent for a 285 pounder! He looked thinner just recently with the increased playing time. A lot of people brought it up in the game thread.

And Aguirre said around midseason that the #1 priority is that they get Sweetney in shape in the offseason. Losing weight will make him quicker on both ends of the floor. And if he comes in looking no thinner than he still is our best rebounder and and post scorer and basically our best PF at the very least and most valuable trade asset.

Yes Taylor is a pure scorer in the post but he doesn't contribute anything else which makes him a good bench scorer. Malik should also never be starting because of his limited ability and lack of size shotblocking.

Kurt is a jumpshooter who should not be starting on a team with no dominant post player and a good but slow defender who also can't block shots.

Even a FAT Sweetney is the best PF on this team because his presence inside has a great affect on the Wins column as opposed to an all jumpshooting 4 consective 30win season team.

We're never gonna see eye to eye on this one lol



[Edited by - gunsnewing on 04/21/2005 21:50:51]

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by gunsnewing:

Posted by nyk4ever:

Posted by gunsnewing:

Posted by ultknicks524:

Sweeteny hasnt shown anything other than the potential to eat more hamburgers. Lets see him lose some weight and then you can talk about how much potential he has.

Sweetney really showed me a lot the last month and a half of the season. Enough to convince me that he is the best PF and has the greatest value of the bunch, when you take rebounding and post scoring into consideration and hopefully quicker feet on defense after he losses weight.

The only thing I have a problem with is that you act like Sweetney losing weight is a forgone conclusion. Remember at the beginning of this year? Sweetney had lost some weight but look at him now, he looks just as big as he was last year, if not bigger. The guy has a serious weight problem and if he doesnt WANT TO fix it, he's not going too. He needs to get his stomach stapled or something or else he's never going to be more then a 20 minute player off the bench and the Knicks need far more then that from him.

It's not all about Sweetney losing weight. The guy is has a lot of talent for a 285 pounder! He looked thinner just recently with the increased playing time. A lot of people brought it up in the game thread.

And Aguirre said around midseason that the #1 priority is that they get Sweetney in shape in the offseason. Losing weight will make him quicker on both ends of the floor. And if he comes in looking no thinner than he still is our best rebounder and and post scorer and basically our best PF at the very least and most valuable trade asset.

Yes Taylor is a pure scorer in the post but he doesn't contribute anything else which makes him a good bench scorer. Malik should also never be starting because of his limited ability and lack of size shotblocking.

Kurt is a jumpshooter who should not be starting on a team with no dominant post player and a good but slow defender who also can't block shots.

Even a FAT Sweetney is the best PF on this team because his presence inside has a great affect on the Wins column as opposed to an all jumpshooting 4 consective 30win season team.

We're never gonna see eye to eye on this one lol



[Edited by - gunsnewing on 04/21/2005 21:50:51]

I totally agree with you about Sweetney being fat and the best Power Forward on this team but the problem is this 285(thats being nice I think) is that he can only go 20 minutes a game. 20 minutes from your starting power forward isn't good enough in this league and if he stays at 285 he WILL NOT be able to play more then 20 minutes a game.

Posted by nyk4ever:

Just to get on topic a little bit here. Anyone that is dissing the Nets about making the playoffs is crazy. The Nets have a much higher quality core then the Knicks do. I would take Kidd/Carter/Jefferson/Krystic anyday over Marbury/Crawford/Ariza/Sweetney. Yeah the Nets made the playoffs this year but how much will that effect their draft position? Not much, plus they get the chance to do the unthinkable and take out the Heat in the 1st round. By missing the playoffs they would have a SLIGHT chance at best at getting any pick higher then 14, instead they are picking 15, not much of a difference.

The Nets have a great lineup for next year, if you look at it.
PG-Kidd
SG-Carter
SF-Jefferson
PF-Jason Collins (could be Hakim Warrick, if they move up slightly in the draft, and Warrick more then compliments this team)
C-Krystic

Nenad is more then just a marginal player. The kid is a rookie who has shown that he can perfectly mesh with Kidd's style of play, clean up the Big3's misses and score a bit in the post. All the while playing pretty darn good Defense, especially for a rookie. The Nets caught alot of flack for letting KMart go, but look at them now, they just rebuilt their whole entire roster in one year AND STILL MADE THE PLAYOFFS. Factor all that in and then factor in that next year they will have the Clippers first round pick which you have to think is going to be in the Top15 or 20 and the Nets are going to be able to add 2 more pretty good players in next years draft in addition to whatever they get in this year draft. The Nets have always been a laughing stock but Rod Thorn has totally turned that franchise around.

Posted by codeunknown:

tkf, there are several different arguments you seem to be making.

1. Vince's level of play will drop as his history in Toronto indicates.

2. That drop will be accelerated by the addition of Jefferson to the line-up because of a lack of "touches."

3. Vince's value should be judged only after evaluating his play over a long stretch (i.e. a full season)

4. New Jersey is not in a significantly better position than the Knicks in terms of building towards a championship.


Of those, I agree only with 3. Questions 1 and 2 will be directly answered by mid-season next year, so speculation is more or less irrelevant.

Regarding 4, the Nets are already a playoff team minus Jefferson, which is significantly better than us. Next year, include an all-star in RJ, pick #13 (which could be Warrick, Frye, Petro), and an MLE signing. Add the fact that Krstic is producing more than Sweetney in his rookie season and has more upside and its clear that the Nets
are in better position.

The Nets will build around RJ (24), Krstic (21) and presumably Warrick (20). Vince is only 28 and, right now, his value is peaking.
Tell me this lineup isn't scary.

Kidd/Planinic
Carter/R. Mercer
RJ/Buford
Warrick/Uncle Cliff
Krstic/Collins

Posted by gunsnewing:

Posted by nyk4ever:

Just to get on topic a little bit here. Anyone that is dissing the Nets about making the playoffs is crazy. The Nets have a much higher quality core then the Knicks do. I would take Kidd/Carter/Jefferson/Krystic anyday over Marbury/Crawford/Ariza/Sweetney. Yeah the Nets made the playoffs this year but how much will that effect their draft position? Not much, plus they get the chance to do the unthinkable and take out the Heat in the 1st round. By missing the playoffs they would have a SLIGHT chance at best at getting any pick higher then 14, instead they are picking 15, not much of a difference.

The Nets have a great lineup for next year, if you look at it.
PG-Kidd
SG-Carter
SF-Jefferson
PF-Jason Collins (could be Hakim Warrick, if they move up slightly in the draft, and Warrick more then compliments this team)
C-Krystic

Nenad is more then just a marginal player. The kid is a rookie who has shown that he can perfectly mesh with Kidd's style of play, clean up the Big3's misses and score a bit in the post. All the while playing pretty darn good Defense, especially for a rookie. The Nets caught alot of flack for letting KMart go, but look at them now, they just rebuilt their whole entire roster in one year AND STILL MADE THE PLAYOFFS. Factor all that in and then factor in that next year they will have the Clippers first round pick which you have to think is going to be in the Top15 or 20 and the Nets are going to be able to add 2 more pretty good players in next years draft in addition to whatever they get in this year draft. The Nets have always been a laughing stock but Rod Thorn has totally turned that franchise around.

yeah definitely and the scary thing is that all these guys minus Kidd are either in their prime or still on the rise like Carter, Richard & Nenad. with the player they pick up with the exception Rahim/Swift or someone who's maybe not as good but a decent PF and whoever they draft at a very solid 15 spot in a deep draft.

I'm afraid even when Kidd is finished they'll replace him and continue being one of the better teams in the East.

How did Sweetney get in this thread anyway? LOL!

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by tkf:

you keep saying the nets are without Jefferson, well the knicks plans this year have been thwarted with the injury of Houston, that can't be discounted.

To equate Houston's absence with Jefferson's absence is misguided. Jefferson is a long-term all-star and he's eons ahead of Houston at this point.

Posted by codeunknown:

Posted by tkf:


I see your point here, and you make some valid ones, but you are making a big assumption that warrick will be there for the nets to draft? If that is the case then let me give you this knicks line up..

marbs
Craw/Juilis Hodge orFransicso garcia
Sweetney/rose
Bogut
Grainger

I mean that lineup is just as formidable,and really I can plug in a lot of names there, warrick being one of them also for the knicks..

you keep saying the nets are without Jefferson, well the knicks plans this year have been thwarted with the injury of Houston, that can't be discounted.

To equate Houston's absence with Jefferson's absence is misguided. Jefferson is a long-term all-star and he's eons ahead of Houston at this point.

Also, comparing our chances to get Bogut, the consensus No.1, to the Nets picking Warrick at #15 is ludicrous. And, still, the lineup you finish with is worse than a Nets squad (with Warrick) which is fairly probable. Note - nbadraft has Warrick at No.23 and draftcity has Warrick at No. 22. This is not a big assumption by any standard.

No I am equating Houston's absence with the knicks missing the playoffs in a division where 42 wins gets you into the playoffs, thats all.. RJ was replaced by vince and vince IMO is a better player than RJ.Again we don't know how much better the nets would be with RJ and vince together, that has yet to be seen..

Aand how can you place so much faith in those moc drafts, if warrick has a good camp, the nets will not have a chance at that kid, because there will be 15 teams picking ahead of them, I mean they have Greene going at 11, how realistic is that? The knicks have just as much of a chance at Bogut or williams , than the nets do at warrick, especially if warrick has a monster tryout, and that is even more of a possibility..