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the consequence of winning right now and how detrimental it is
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nyk4ever
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4/7/2005  2:17 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by nyk4ever:

I understand that Malik and Mo T are not young players but in a year or 2 when we can truly judge Isiah by the team thats out there, I think they will be key players off the bench on a extremely young athletic team that comprises of Marbury, Crawford, Ariza, our 3 picks from this year and even Sweetney if he's still around. Not bad if you ask me
it sucks... 20 other teams have better futures than that. Please.

Fish exactly how many moves can you make in Isiah's 15 months He has had 1 DRAFT and in that draft he didn't even have a first round pick! I just don't understand, where is the patience! Give the man time to do his job, he's doing a pretty decent job so far, let's see what he can do.
oh I have patience. I'm not calling for his head. But dont tell me its ok we are terrible because we have this young core waiting in the wings when we dont. I give Zeke great credit for getting Ariza. But every move hes made has been to win now. You dont add over $200mm in salary (dont give me any 20% crap, please) if your NOT trying to win now. All these moves have been to address team needs and to get back to the playoffs.
15 months... and we have gone totally backwards. We are back to hoping to win the lottery and draft a player to save the franchise.

I'm patient... plenty patient, but why do I have to watch bad move after bad move and be ok with it because the guy is new? Where's the style of play? Where's the uptempo athletic exciting team he promised at the beginning of the year? When he said we would compete for the division. Oh right... we had injuries, unlike the Pacers who have actually missed real players.

Fish, believe me I know where your coming from, I really do. Rebuilding is a process though, some players you obtain work out and some don't. Hoping for a player in the lottery to save the franchise is also the way every team rebuilds, look at the Bulls(I know its potentially a bad example because Krause made a bunch of terrible decisions)the Heat rebuilt through the lottery, the Cavs are doing it through the lottery, the Celtics even rebuilt through the lottery. I mean theres more teams I can name too. I was one of the people that thought the Knicks could win 45-50 games this year becuase on paper the team looked like it could to me, especially with the addition of what looked to be a awesome 6th man in Crawford and having H20 back and healthy. I still disagree with you about the win now attitude, I know Marbury is a excellent player but hes also young and Jamal Crawford is a player that has a very bright future ahead of him. I know the Malik and Mo T trades are very arguable but I stated how I felt about them and I know how you feel about them.

I just think when you look at what Isiah HAS done and the moves it looks like hes ABOUT to do (3 draft picks, TT and Penny being traded before next years deadline) I think you have to say the future atleast looks optimistic. I'm very optimistic the Knicks are going to get a very good young player with the expiring contracts of Penny and TT, even if its Zach Randolph who I hate, he'd still make the Knicks a much better team. Add someone like Zach Randolph with the possibility of Chris Taft on the frontline next to him and the 2 other draft picks, add that to Marbury, Crawford and Ariza and I think you got something.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
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fishmike
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4/7/2005  2:37 PM
look man... I'm a what you see is what you get kinda guy. Isiah definatly can help us this offseason and I hope like hell he does. I'm not going to assume he will however because I've seen little to nothing from him that inspires confidence. This is my problem with some of the guys on the this board. Every GM has assets to work with. TT/Penny are more a liability than an asset. Based on Isiah's past we are more likely to make a bad move than a good one, but forget that for now.

You know what would change my tune? Playing the kids. This season is lost, what tickets will be sold are sold. Call Herb and tell him you want to see Jackie Butler for 250 minutes in the NBA. Thats about 26 minutes a game. Do that. If he's nasty and we win every game FINE!!! We know he's a keeper and we have that to work with. If he sucks at least we know and whats the consequence? Better draft postion.

THAT would show me Isiah has 2 pennies of sense. THAT would inspire a little more patience.

I have never said Isiah cant improve this team. Of course he can. But why should I just assume (like some seem to) that these 2 picks, Penny and Tim are going to be a bunch of star players in 6 months? They could just as easily be guys like Fred Jones, Mo Taylor and Eric Dampier.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nyk4ever
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4/7/2005  2:51 PM
Posted by fishmike:

look man... I'm a what you see is what you get kinda guy. Isiah definatly can help us this offseason and I hope like hell he does. I'm not going to assume he will however because I've seen little to nothing from him that inspires confidence. This is my problem with some of the guys on the this board. Every GM has assets to work with. TT/Penny are more a liability than an asset. Based on Isiah's past we are more likely to make a bad move than a good one, but forget that for now.

You know what would change my tune? Playing the kids. This season is lost, what tickets will be sold are sold. Call Herb and tell him you want to see Jackie Butler for 250 minutes in the NBA. Thats about 26 minutes a game. Do that. If he's nasty and we win every game FINE!!! We know he's a keeper and we have that to work with. If he sucks at least we know and whats the consequence? Better draft postion.

THAT would show me Isiah has 2 pennies of sense. THAT would inspire a little more patience.

I have never said Isiah cant improve this team. Of course he can. But why should I just assume (like some seem to) that these 2 picks, Penny and Tim are going to be a bunch of star players in 6 months? They could just as easily be guys like Fred Jones, Mo Taylor and Eric Dampier.

Point taken Fish. It's obvious we have 2 different tunes that we work too and I really understand your turn. Your right, I wish Butler was playing more, I want to see what the kid can do and at this point I'm really wondering whose the one whose responsible for the kids NOT playing. Is it Herb whom is still trying to save his job by going and winning every game or is it Isiahs fault who isnt telling Herb to play these kids? Just to kind of battle your point at the end, why should you expect that these picks are going to be bad either? Jamal Crawford and Stephon Marbury were not bad additions, I'll give you Mo Taylor, but just this time Too me, I've seen alot more good then bad and thats why I have alot of confidence in Zeke. When Layden was around I had zero confidence in him becuase he didnt deserve it, he made terrible move after terrible move and now that I think about it, he didn't even have one move that I think I can say I actually liked now, especially with the way Sweets is turning out. Too me thats when you can say alright, I've had enough of this guy, he's give it his best but every single player he's brought in has been miserable. I haven't seen that with Zeke yet, matter of fact I've seen 3 guys I like a ton(marbury, crawford, Ariza) and thats why the confidence is still there
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
eViL
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4/7/2005  2:57 PM
Patience - a virtue.
Is fifteen months enough time?
An endless debate

It's Fishmike and Briggs
versus Bonn and his lovers.
They are anti-hate

My opinion is
IT has the off season
To make this team great
check out my latest hip hop project: https://soundcloud.com/michaelcro http://youtu.be/scNXshrpyZo
TMS
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4/7/2005  2:57 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

We need more posters like you man! It's constantly Briggs and Fish complaining about Isiah being a disaster and I'm the only who posts frequently on the side that argues 15 months just isn't enough time. Good post!

i don't get where you're coming up w/that stuff because there's plenty of posters on this board who've been preaching patience until next year's trade deadline.
I haven't seen you argue with Briggs or Fish when they call Isiah a disaster or say that he's failed to make us better than #20th in the league in terms of talented young players, but maybe I missed all those replies of yours. Sorry if I did. Glad to hear that there are more people on the patience side and fewer on the Fish, Briggs side than I realized.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 04/07/2005 13:57:21]

jeez, it doesn't take me or anyone else here to argue those points w/those guys on every single thread like you do to prove a thing...if you haven't seen myself along w/several others preaching patience until the trade deadline next year, you just haven't been paying attention & concentrating too much on trying to get under BRIGGS & fishmike's skin with your side comments everytime someone makes a point that reinforces your position on certain issues...give it a rest already.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
gunsnewing
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4/7/2005  3:09 PM
Posted by eViL:

Patience - a virtue.
Is fifteen months enough time?
An endless debate

It's Fishmike and Briggs
versus Bonn and his lovers.
They are anti-hate

My opinion is
IT has the off season
To make this team great

i hope you dont consider me a Bonn lover lol

I was here 4yrs ago getting killed for wanting to trade Kurt because we would never win more than 30games with him as our best frontcourt player.

I was one of the few who wanted a real SG on this team as far as 2 months ago. And the one who kept saying that I would take Gerald Green over the next Skita anyday wayyyyy before the McDonald's all-american game.

oh and i was one of the guys who supported Ewing while a lot of people wanted him gone. it looks like the ones who wanted Ewing to retire a Knick won out!

I've watched virtually every Knick game since 96 when I was 13. I think I know quite a lot about my Knicks and what it takes to get back to winning ball. And thats a dominant frontcourt player to replace Ewing and a perimeter defender that we haven't had since starks, childs and sprewell.

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 04/07/2005 15:24:19]
Bonn1997
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4/7/2005  3:29 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

We need more posters like you man! It's constantly Briggs and Fish complaining about Isiah being a disaster and I'm the only who posts frequently on the side that argues 15 months just isn't enough time. Good post!

i don't get where you're coming up w/that stuff because there's plenty of posters on this board who've been preaching patience until next year's trade deadline.
I haven't seen you argue with Briggs or Fish when they call Isiah a disaster or say that he's failed to make us better than #20th in the league in terms of talented young players, but maybe I missed all those replies of yours. Sorry if I did. Glad to hear that there are more people on the patience side and fewer on the Fish, Briggs side than I realized.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 04/07/2005 13:57:21]

jeez, it doesn't take me or anyone else here to argue those points w/those guys on every single thread like you do to prove a thing...if you haven't seen myself along w/several others preaching patience until the trade deadline next year, you just haven't been paying attention & concentrating too much on trying to get under BRIGGS & fishmike's skin with your side comments everytime someone makes a point that reinforces your position on certain issues...give it a rest already.
No, I do remember you saying that once (just not in reply to one of Fish or Brigg's comments). I don't get the skin comment. I usually reply harshly to them only if they call me names or attempt to get under my skin. (I even recently started a new thread congratulating Fish on how right he was about Antoine Walker.)
fishmike
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4/7/2005  3:30 PM
TMS... guess which poster I am:
Someone posts something. I post my opinion. I reinforce my opinion with more posts. I post my opinion on every reply to every topic. I post my opinion of what other people say about my opinion. I spend the day searching the internet for info that might prove someone wrong, and if I find it I use that everytime I post my opinion of what that person posts. If you dont post a response to my questions its not because your ignoring me, its because your stumped.
Who am I?

Back to basketball and the topic at hand:
I have every confidence Isiah will draft the best player available at whatever spot(s) we pick. If our guys dont pan out its because the draft was weak, not because Zeke cant evaluate talent or just screwed up. I do think (because we are so win-now) that the young guys will have a very hard time cracking the rotation, but I do feel good about us getting good talent in this draft.

I HOPE Zeke makes some (more) lateral trades and rather than focusing on upgrading talent regardless of contract or position he focuses on balancing the roster and getting guys who have styles that fit.

I have a lot of hope... Despite our team I said we would win 45 and the division. I stink at the gamepicker because I picked them to win about 75% of the time. I have hope, I just wont pretend these moves have been good because I have hope.

Diggit
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
eViL
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4/7/2005  3:32 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

i hope you dont consider me a Bonn lover lol

HAHA!!! I was just thinking that Bonn is the opposite of a hater. Hence, you have - lover. It's really just a stupid joke designed to make Nalod laugh.

To be honest, I'm bummed the Knicks aren't as good as I thought they'd be. I'm extra bummed to be reading all the bashing and banter back and forth (especially because some of the bashing is well deserved and in some cases dead on accurate).

Anyway, I'm just playing the clown on the board now - trying to add some laughs to an otherwise sorry year. No offense to anyone in anyway (especially Bonn, I don't want any feuds with him - he's relentless ).

As far as my opinion on the Knicks and their direction goes: I'm still positive and patient. Next year is the year to demand results (2nd round - at least).
check out my latest hip hop project: https://soundcloud.com/michaelcro http://youtu.be/scNXshrpyZo
Bonn1997
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4/7/2005  3:32 PM
Posted by fishmike:

reaching new levels of annoyance daily
don't know why you have to ruin every thread by making it personal. It would be nice to just talk about basketball. Maybe that's asking too much
Bonn1997
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4/7/2005  3:34 PM
Posted by eViL:

Patience - a virtue.
Is fifteen months enough time?
An endless debate

It's Fishmike and Briggs
versus Bonn and his lovers.
They are anti-hate

My opinion is
IT has the off season
To make this team great
That's funny. I like the people on my side, but there not my lovers! My gf is.
Bonn1997
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4/7/2005  3:37 PM
Posted by fishmike:

TMS... guess which poster I am:
Someone posts something. I post my opinion. I reinforce my opinion with more posts. I post my opinion on every reply to every topic. I post my opinion of what other people say about my opinion. I spend the day searching the internet for info that might prove someone wrong, and if I find it I use that everytime I post my opinion of what that person posts. If you dont post a response to my questions its not because your ignoring me, its because your stumped.
Who am I?

Well, if you don't want to talk about basketball, I'll reply. Up until the part about searching the internet, I thought you were talking about yourself. The internet search part sounds like no one here, though.
Bonn1997
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4/7/2005  3:46 PM
I was just thinking that Bonn is the opposite of a hater. Hence, you have - lover.
Aw, I'm flattered!
tkf
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4/7/2005  7:15 PM
Posted by fishmike:

look man... I'm a what you see is what you get kinda guy. Isiah definatly can help us this offseason and I hope like hell he does. I'm not going to assume he will however because I've seen little to nothing from him that inspires confidence. This is my problem with some of the guys on the this board. Every GM has assets to work with. TT/Penny are more a liability than an asset. Based on Isiah's past we are more likely to make a bad move than a good one, but forget that for now.

You know what would change my tune? Playing the kids. This season is lost, what tickets will be sold are sold. Call Herb and tell him you want to see Jackie Butler for 250 minutes in the NBA. Thats about 26 minutes a game. Do that. If he's nasty and we win every game FINE!!! We know he's a keeper and we have that to work with. If he sucks at least we know and whats the consequence? Better draft postion.

THAT would show me Isiah has 2 pennies of sense. THAT would inspire a little more patience.

I have never said Isiah cant improve this team. Of course he can. But why should I just assume (like some seem to) that these 2 picks, Penny and Tim are going to be a bunch of star players in 6 months? They could just as easily be guys like Fred Jones, Mo Taylor and Eric Dampier.

I could not have said it any better, right now watching our starters play big minutes and we still lose, stinks, for once I wish I had time warner instead of satellite so I could not watch the knicks games, but because I am a sucker for the knicks I will watch anyway. What woud make things great for me as a fan is to watch ariza, butler,craw and sweetney play 25 minutes each for the rest of the year, like fish said, if Butler is a beast, then that is another chip we have, and gives us a better idea of how to approach this draft. Trying to win now with the vets is just stupid, and only because herb is coaching for a job is he playing these guys. It is like everyone now has seperate agendas and that is not good. Agenda #1 should be planning ahead, it is now april, before you know it, june is here, the draft,then summer league and the season starts a few months after that, when that times comes I don't want to see many of these same faces getting major minutes on this team, that is TT, penny,KT,and JYD. Yes, I like JYD but he is a 10 min a game man, and actually if we could move his big deal, I would do it in an instant...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
SKY
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4/7/2005  11:19 PM
Posted by fishmike:

look man... I'm a what you see is what you get kinda guy. Isiah definatly can help us this offseason and I hope like hell he does. I'm not going to assume he will however because I've seen little to nothing from him that inspires confidence. This is my problem with some of the guys on the this board. Every GM has assets to work with. TT/Penny are more a liability than an asset. Based on Isiah's past we are more likely to make a bad move than a good one, but forget that for now.

You know what would change my tune? Playing the kids. This season is lost, what tickets will be sold are sold. Call Herb and tell him you want to see Jackie Butler for 250 minutes in the NBA. Thats about 26 minutes a game. Do that. If he's nasty and we win every game FINE!!! We know he's a keeper and we have that to work with. If he sucks at least we know and whats the consequence? Better draft postion.

THAT would show me Isiah has 2 pennies of sense. THAT would inspire a little more patience.

I have never said Isiah cant improve this team. Of course he can. But why should I just assume (like some seem to) that these 2 picks, Penny and Tim are going to be a bunch of star players in 6 months? They could just as easily be guys like Fred Jones, Mo Taylor and Eric Dampier.

I agree 100%.　Isiah CAN improve the team but his track record doesn't really give us confidence.
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the consequence of winning right now and how detrimental it is
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