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Any way Isiah can get Maggette & Wilcox over the summer?
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crzymdups
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4/4/2005  3:16 PM
maybe this is the year Stern helps rebuild the Knicks. stranger things have happened. It's going to be tough to get down to the six spot unless Zeke shuts down Kurt and Tim and cuts Steph's minutes in half. Right now, the guys are playing hard for Herb's job. Zeke needs to tell everyone Herb is a legit candidate, put the brakes on the season and aim for six.

we need to come away from this lotto with Taft or Bogut (taft at 6, or bogut at 1). I mean, there are others out there like Green or Deron, but this team needs all-star caliber size.
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TMS
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4/4/2005  3:25 PM
crzymdups, the advantage a large market franchise like the Knicks has is that they can afford to take on guys after they've popped...we are not the Atlanta Hawks or Memphis Grizzlies...we have an ownership that is ready & willing to spend to get established NBA talent...they don't always have to take the risk of building up through the draft...the problem is they've spent money on the wrong types of players in the past...players that were vastly overpriced for their worth...i don't feel a young player w/Maggette's skills & talent is overpriced at what he's making at all, & his best years are still ahead of him...that's the type of wise, sound investment this team needs to make, not spend millions on role players like Hunter.

now if someone like Taft is available at where the Knicks pick, then fine, we stick w/that & take him...but if not, & the choice is between some Euro kid that's totally unproven or trading his rights along w/Crawford & Sweets to get 2 players who would come in & make an immediate impact on this team, i say you have to go for it.
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tkf
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4/4/2005  3:28 PM
The funny thing about the NBA, a bad team can add one key player and become a good team, and a bad team can also add 5 good players and still be bad..

Who knows with the knicks, remember, our problem is not scoring, it is defense and lack of interior presence, just think how many times we get outplayed by the likes of pryzbilla, mihm, gadzurich, and just think of how a guy like Bogut can change all of that, and who knows that can be a 15 game turn around, bogut showed he can impact a game without scoring, he can pass, rebound and block shots. I like marvin williams, but who knows, maybe bogut is the "right" piece that we need...
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crzymdups
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4/4/2005  3:33 PM
Posted by TMS:

crzymdups, the advantage a large market franchise like the Knicks has is that they can afford to take on guys after they've popped...we are not the Atlanta Hawks or Memphis Grizzlies...we have an ownership that is ready & willing to spend to get established NBA talent...they don't always have to take the risk of building up through the draft...the problem is they've spent money on the wrong types of players in the past...players that were vastly overpriced for their worth...i don't feel a young player w/Maggette's skills & talent is overpriced at what he's making at all, & his best years are still ahead of him...that's the type of wise, sound investment this team needs to make, not spend millions on role players like Hunter.

now if someone like Taft is available at where the Knicks pick, then fine, we stick w/that & take him...but if not, & the choice is between some Euro kid that's totally unproven or trading his rights along w/Crawford & Sweets to get 2 players who would come in & make an immediate impact on this team, i say you have to go for it.

okay, I'm with you on the being able to financially afford it, but we're also overpaying because we're shipping out 3 lotto pick players and only getting back 2. I'm also not convinced at all that LAC would do this trade. If they would, I'd be interested, but I don't know. Why would they want Sweetney when they have Brand? Why Craw? They would have to really covet our lotto pick and really dislike both Wilcox and Maggette to do this. They would also have to like Craw a lot to pay him for six more years. And there aren't even many Knicks fans who like Craw or Sweetney. I mean, this trade just seems a little silly.
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tomverve
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4/4/2005  3:49 PM
crzymdups has a good point. When trying to add major pieces, you're always going to have some kind of considerable cost dynamic going on. One kind is when the player has already established himself, and it takes a lot of assets to acquire him (eg, Maggette or Brand). Another kind is when a player might develop into a big piece, but there are question marks. Spending big bucks or big assets on such a player is risky, because if he doesn't pan out, you've just overpayed by a large margin (eg, giving Hunter the MLE). Then there are cases that are lagrely a combination of these two situations (eg, Dalembert, Curry, etc).

The best way around this conundrum is to acquire promising players without having to give up lots of compensation to another team one way or another. You can do this by cheaply signing, say, a CBA guy no one else really covets and letting him develop on your roster (we tried this method last year with DerMarr, and again this season with Butler). But, by far the easiest and most reliable way is by building through the draft. If you wind up with a high pick, it's yours, and you have free reign over who you pick at your spot, without having to worry about significant contractual matters or surrendering talent you already have, etc. This is really NY's best hope for improving in the near future. In the above scenarios, you can improve your roster, but it's a lot harder to do what you always want to do in a transaction, which is essentially get something for nothing. (Note that if you trade a good player A for a very good player B, you've essentially added the talent difference between B and A to your roster 'for free.' If you don't have the assets or luck to do these kind of transactions, you'll only end up with varying degrees of lateral moves that ultimately don't get you very far.)
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TMS
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4/4/2005  3:53 PM
it's fine if you don't think it's feasible...i was just throwing ideas out there...these are the types of players Isiah needs to be pursuing this offseason...follow w/the plan of getting athletic, uptempo style players...get rid of the players that don't fit that mold (not saying Crawford doesn't but he's 1 of our only tradeable assets imho, contradictory to what BRIGGS may feel about it)

w/the lottery pick, the Clips could get the Knicks to draft for them a guy like Warrick who would easily fill the role left open by Wilcox in a couple years...the Knicks need the players who will make the more immediate impact...if we're not getting a Bogut or Taft, i would look to trade the pick for more established YOUNG NBA talent if i were Isiah...Marbury's not getting any younger & the NY fans are not going to be happy to wait 3 more years in HOPES that their young guys turn into good players...they want to win & win now...no matter how much some of you want to say you're willing to wait 4-5 years for a complete rehaul, i think you'd lose patience w/this team after a year or 2 & want them to start competing on a daily basis...it's just reality.

i mean come on already, it's been 6 years since we've been a respectable team...enough is enough...let's get good already...i think adding 2 players like this helps the Knicks turn themselves instantly into a helluva entertaining team to watch w/some good upside to get better down the road...it's not like we'd be losing all our young guys, as Ariza, Maggette & Wilcox would form a nice young nucleus for this team going forward.
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Bonn1997
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4/4/2005  3:56 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by crzymdups:

the ridiculous issue here is that you guys always seem to want the star players after they "pop."

the problem is, once a player pops, his price tag (i.e. what you have to trade to get him) goes waaaaaay up. Maggette was a 13th pick in the draft back in the day. Now, we'd have to trade the 7th pick plus other stuff to get him. Doesn't that seem messed up? I'd rather draft Taft and have him develop to the point where he's a player we could never acquire in a trade. That's the whole point of the draft - pluck superstars before their price tag goes up too high.

this team needs a lot more than Corey Maggette. It needs size, shot blocking, defense at almost every position and athleticism. With the draft picks we have, we can add two young, big horses this year basically for free. Add them to the core of Marbury, Ariza, Sweets, Jamal and you might have something. Overpaying for a nice player on a bad team is not the way to go. We already overpaid for Marbs, now we have to restock through the draft.


EDIT: one example of this is several guys on this board PINING away for Dalembert but then turning around and saying we can't overpay for Stephen Hunter because he hasn't proven anything. The whole point is: we cannot afford Dalembert at this rate, he is one of the more coveted players in the league. Hunter is ONLY available because he has not popped YET. Yes, it's a gamble, but he's a huge, young mobile center with NBA experience. He's had some great games with Amare out and Phoenix probably couldn't afford to match a full MLE offer. But people think that's overpaying and would prefer to fantasize about Dalembert or hope that Petro develops superquick.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 04/04/2005 14:59:47]



I'll tell you what, IF we really do get position 6, we have a VERY nice chance to get pick 1, its happened multiple times from that slot.
And I will take Bogut over anyone, and it would be good for the Knicks fans and management, because they wont have to think much. yes you will have a dolt or two saying we should trade Bogut 3 ending contracts and future picks for Ron Paxil Artest and Jeff Foster, but I think a good 90% of Knick fans will want Bogut and I think that would convey through the media to the management in case they had any cute ideas!

I can't stress this enough, we need Andrew Bogut more than ANY other player going right now. Ny needs Bogut more than every other team. We need structure balance and a LEADER and Bogut is a leader.
I haven't heard one person say we should trade our lottery pick (let alone if we won the draft lottery) for Artest. This must be one of your "Allan Houston is 36 years old" type of creations.
gunsnewing
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4/4/2005  3:58 PM
I agree with both briggs amd crzymups. why trade for Maggette who can shoot when you can draft gerald green who will be better and shoots lights out and is just as explosive! or taft who would be great with Steph
joec32033
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4/4/2005  3:59 PM
Steps to take...

Trade KT, Sweets $3mil and at least 1 first round pick next year (I would give up both, but they may only want the higher pick)for Maggette and Wilcox
Draft Taft and McCants (If he falls)

Wilcox/Butler
Taft/Rose/Taylor
Ariza/TT?/JYD
Maggette/Craw
Steph/McCants
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crzymdups
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4/4/2005  4:06 PM
Posted by TMS:

it's fine if you don't think it's feasible...i was just throwing ideas out there...these are the types of players Isiah needs to be pursuing this offseason...follow w/the plan of getting athletic, uptempo style players...get rid of the players that don't fit that mold (not saying Crawford doesn't but he's 1 of our only tradeable assets imho, contradictory to what BRIGGS may feel about it)

w/the lottery pick, the Clips could get the Knicks to draft for them a guy like Warrick who would easily fill the role left open by Wilcox in a couple years...the Knicks need the players who will make the more immediate impact...if we're not getting a Bogut or Taft, i would look to trade the pick for more established YOUNG NBA talent if i were Isiah...Marbury's not getting any younger & the NY fans are not going to be happy to wait 3 more years in HOPES that their young guys turn into good players...they want to win & win now...no matter how much some of you want to say you're willing to wait 4-5 years for a complete rehaul, i think you'd lose patience w/this team after a year or 2 & want them to start competing on a daily basis...it's just reality.

i mean come on already, it's been 6 years since we've been a respectable team...enough is enough...let's get good already...i think adding 2 players like this helps the Knicks turn themselves instantly into a helluva entertaining team to watch w/some good upside to get better down the road...it's not like we'd be losing all our young guys, as Ariza, Maggette & Wilcox would form a nice young nucleus for this team going forward.

part of the reason it's been 6 years is the trade of Nene and Camby for Dyess. Enough of trying to do it the easy way. It's taken just as long with lateral trades that have actually been trades that have made us worse. The only way to build this team right is through the draft. What guarantee do we have that Maggette will lead to wins here? He hasn't in LAC YET, with Kaman, Wilcox and Brand up front. He wouldn't have that talent up front on the NYK.

Enough with the easy fixes. This team doesn't have extra pieces it can ship off to bring in that one last piece. This team needs a foundation. It needs bigs from the draft. Any other way and we'd be overpaying.
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djsunyc
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4/4/2005  4:06 PM
if we can get taft with our lottery
then i think we HAVE to try to get another pick in the early 20's, something like:

2006 spurs pick, + our 2005 #2, + cash for #20-24
and draft channing frye

then use our late #1 on granger or someone like that if he's around

getting two 7 footers would be nice.
gunsnewing
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4/4/2005  4:09 PM
maggette/wilcox would only excite me if bogut, green, williams & taft are gone. Then I might go with the more proven players over the foreigners, warrick, McCants, villanueva, wright, granger, grahams of the world. But I think we have a legitimate shot at one of those top 4 players. And if we get one of them we should do whatever it takes to get another 10-15 pick and take Petro or McCants.
crzymdups
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4/4/2005  4:27 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

if we can get taft with our lottery
then i think we HAVE to try to get another pick in the early 20's, something like:

2006 spurs pick, + our 2005 #2, + cash for #20-24
and draft channing frye

then use our late #1 on granger or someone like that if he's around

getting two 7 footers would be nice.

I'm very interested in Channing Frye. I bet with $3million we could just use the 29th pick to move up to around 18-20 or so.
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TMS
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4/4/2005  4:33 PM
don't forget guys, i am going under the assumption that the Knicks don't win the lottery in this scenario & are slated to pick at #7 - #9...they can't trade their lottery pick this year, only the draft rights to the player they pick...so w/that in mind, what player do you guys really think they can get that are better in talent than Maggette or Wilcox? anyone taken at that point is a huge question mark...it's not as if either of these guys are old veterans...Maggette's a year older than Craw & Wilcox the same age as Sweets, but both players are more suited to the vision Isiah has for this team.

no one is saying let's give up a chance to draft Bogut or Taft here...obviously Isiah keeps the pick if he wins 1 of the top 3 unless he's getting a real star calibre player that he covets greatly.

[Edited by - TMS on 04/04/2005 16:34:45]
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EnySpree
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4/4/2005  5:57 PM
tkf

The funny thing about the NBA, a bad team can add one key player and become a good team, and a bad team can also add 5 good players and still be bad..
Who knows with the knicks, remember, our problem is not scoring, it is defense and lack of interior presence, just think how many times we get outplayed by the likes of pryzbilla, mihm, gadzurich, and just think of how a guy like Bogut can change all of that, and who knows that can be a 15 game turn around, bogut showed he can impact a game without scoring, he can pass, rebound and block shots. I like marvin williams, but who knows, maybe bogut is the "right" piece that we need...

I got a feeling Bogut will end up in Atlanta.

I try not to think about the lottery part. It makes me cry

Still a guy like Bogut could truly be the difference between the Knicks currently sucking to all of a sudden being a contender.
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nyk4ever
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4/4/2005  6:07 PM
Posted by EnySpree:
tkf

The funny thing about the NBA, a bad team can add one key player and become a good team, and a bad team can also add 5 good players and still be bad..
Who knows with the knicks, remember, our problem is not scoring, it is defense and lack of interior presence, just think how many times we get outplayed by the likes of pryzbilla, mihm, gadzurich, and just think of how a guy like Bogut can change all of that, and who knows that can be a 15 game turn around, bogut showed he can impact a game without scoring, he can pass, rebound and block shots. I like marvin williams, but who knows, maybe bogut is the "right" piece that we need...

I got a feeling Bogut will end up in Atlanta.

I try not to think about the lottery part. It makes me cry

Still a guy like Bogut could truly be the difference between the Knicks currently sucking to all of a sudden being a contender.

SO true, it'd be like that Patrick Ewing draft all over again although Bogut isn't as heralded as Ewing was coming out of college. Just a thought though, all of us Knicks fans think things are bad, imagine what the Hawks fans are feeling down in Atlanta. Theyve been bad for years and years and they cant even attract upper-tier free-agents with all that cap room. So help me if the Knicks ever get to that point, its only been that way for us in New York for about 5 years.
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Any way Isiah can get Maggette & Wilcox over the summer?

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