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Hackett/Layden
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fishmike
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4/1/2005  2:40 PM
Pharzeone, guys get hurt. Its not Isiah or anyone else's fault that Houston cant play. He missed about 10 games in his first 6 years as a Knick. Now he cant play.

What I was refering too is people constantly using Houston as an excuse for everything wrong with this team, and every lousy contract Isiah brings on. People around here are always saying it doesnt matter who we bring in because Houston's deal ruins us anyway. Thats the most backwards way to think I can imagine.

Lets say Pharzeone is the head of a big company. Pharzeone is taking over for a recently fired CEO that made bad decisions. Say one of those bad calls was buying Amtrak which costs the company millions each year. Now imagine Pharzeone makes numerous bad moves of his own that cost the company millions. When asked to justify them he says "it doesnt make a difference. We are paying millions for Amtrack anyhow so who cares?"

I mean really...

Checkits/Grunfeld had their checks and balances in place. If and when players didnt work out they left themselves options and had flexibility... and they never had a bad contract. Childs wasnt what they hoped but his solid defense fit into a style of play.
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Bonn1997
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4/1/2005  2:43 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Pharzeone, guys get hurt. Its not Isiah or anyone else's fault that Houston cant play. He missed about 10 games in his first 6 years as a Knick. Now he cant play.

What I was refering too is people constantly using Houston as an excuse for everything wrong with this team, and every lousy contract Isiah brings on. People around here are always saying it doesnt matter who we bring in because Houston's deal ruins us anyway. Thats the most backwards way to think I can imagine.

Lets say Pharzeone is the head of a big company. Pharzeone is taking over for a recently fired CEO that made bad decisions. Say one of those bad calls was buying Amtrak which costs the company millions each year. Now imagine Pharzeone makes numerous bad moves of his own that cost the company millions. When asked to justify them he says "it doesnt make a difference. We are paying millions for Amtrack anyhow so who cares?"

I mean really...

Checkits/Grunfeld had their checks and balances in place. If and when players didnt work out they left themselves options and had flexibility... and they never had a bad contract. Childs wasnt what they hoped but his solid defense fit into a style of play.
I agree that it's lame to blame Houston. I have heard very few people do that though.
Nalod
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4/2/2005  2:42 AM
Taking back anfernee was a huge financial strain! That was a big price to pay!

I fully blame Dolan for the financial situation we are in cuz its his gig! He starphucked for Marbs. I like Marbs, but he did not turn into the leader we wanted, nor is he making his mates "better". In almost one and one half seasons.

I fully believe that after The Dice disaster, there was clearly no panic moves, no stupid trades, and it looked like we were piling up assets and rebuilding. I think Dice was all dolans move, it added a big name and big salary. Little Scotty could never make that decisions, that the owner who takes on that kinda jack!

Also, I think Layden needed Checketts for the big stuff, and his job was pure talent evalution. He was handed a big damm mess in the Ewing-Glenn rice trades as checketts was not there to go up against Ewings agent and get it worked out. Layden was not able to handle that kind of thing, and thus he failed. Dolan was an idiot for running Checketts off without taking Layden with him! Checketts took care of Laydens finance the rest of his life with that big contract before he was run out. Dolan is a moron for letting the whole thing play out like that. But this team is all Isiahs answer, and he did not try to blow it up. He came in and said he would not do it, so he assembled this group of losers and they suck. Isiah still has some chips left, but now I am nervous as he might start to panic soon!

And Lets catorgorize one thing. Marbury is a great player, but he is a loser. Craw is a great talent, but low IQ and might also be a loser if he keeps panicing. Marbs comment to Craw the other day: "when in doubt Shoot!" Freaking brilliant! When in doubt, call time out! And when in doubt, go home and watch tape and ask yourself what you should do next time. And maybe next time actually execute somthing smart. They folded tonite under pressure. YOu don't lose games like that at home!

Reezy, Isiah did good there, and as I said, he still has his cards to play. I am not suggesting he should be fired at all. Just some of you real hardcore KoolAid junkies don't want to see reality, or jsut want to hold on to hope in a big way. Hey, I got hope, but not until Marbs changes, or becomes a cog in the wheel of a good team, not the idiot leader he is now.

Give me phil jax, give me as system and lets hope they can buy into.

Checketts said some nasty things, and it hurts to hear it, but its just tough love. Remember, his teams were expensive, and lots of draft picks were traded, but those boys played hard ball the garden was defended as sacred ground. He took on men who were proud to where the uniform. This group he called out for playing for money, and that is somthing Isiah never did in his day! That is what is so surprising about this group, they don't reflect the values Isiah has demonstrated in his day, nor the values he spoke of at seasons beginning. Isiah made a new kind of mess, and he gotta clean it up!

We all might agree we like this mess over the "layden mess", but its still a mess!
tomverve
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4/2/2005  3:35 AM
Posted by fishmike:

What I was refering too is people constantly using Houston as an excuse for everything wrong with this team, and every lousy contract Isiah brings on. People around here are always saying it doesnt matter who we bring in because Houston's deal ruins us anyway. Thats the most backwards way to think I can imagine.

Lets say Pharzeone is the head of a big company. Pharzeone is taking over for a recently fired CEO that made bad decisions. Say one of those bad calls was buying Amtrak which costs the company millions each year. Now imagine Pharzeone makes numerous bad moves of his own that cost the company millions. When asked to justify them he says "it doesnt make a difference. We are paying millions for Amtrack anyhow so who cares?"

You're comparing apples and oranges. When people say that bringing in big contracts is OK as long as they don't outlive Houston's, pure financial concerns have nothing to do with it. Dolan owns the team, he's filthy stinking rich, and obviously he can afford to dole out the dollars or else he would have set Isiah more stringent constraints. It's Dolan's money to do with as he wishes, not yours, so what does it matter?

The relevance of judging contract sizes and lengths relative to Houston's has to do with the salary cap. Realistically, no matter what we do, we'll be over the cap until Houston and Shamdon expire and shed a combined dead weight of about $28mm (that's more than half the cap right there). The only thing that should concern us about the contracts on our roster is how they effect the cap, since that in turn constrains what kind of roster upgrading we can do, and that directly effects us as fans. And the cap is pretty much a binary issue; either you're under it and have some extra money to throw at FAs, or you're not and you don't. Given that we're not getting under the cap until Houston and Shamdon expire, it really matters not a whit what kind of contracts we add in the meantime, so long as they do not outlive H&S. Thus, MoT's contract, while out of proportion to his production, is not a practical hinderance with respect to our cap situation, while Rose's is.

Your Amtrak metaphor applies to the first situation (the one we shouldn't care about), not the second one (the one we should care about). Here's a metaphor for the latter. Suppose that fishmike wants to work overtime to make some extra money, but he also really likes to spend his spare time talking about the Knicks on ultimateknicks.com. Now, these two are diametrically opposed; if fishmike wants to work overtime, he'll have to sacrifice proportionately from the time he spends here. But now suppose that for some reason, overtime hours are not available for him until two months from now. Well, in this case, fishmike can temporarily spend all the spare time on ultimateknicks.com that he wants without detracting from his goal to make extra money, since he won't be able to do that for two months anyway. Spending time talking about the Knicks will only detract from his goal once the opportunity for working overtime is actually available to him. Once that time comes, then he has to seriously worry about balancing between spending his spare time working and talking Knicks; but until that time, doing the latter will not bear any relevance to his ability to do the former.
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JUNKMEIN
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4/2/2005  7:30 AM
Ahhh, us New Yorkers. Such a group of drama queens and pansies we are. We're like little 4 year old girls that cry because their mommy won't give them chocolate before dinner and then cry harder because mommy said no instead of being patient enough to just finish dinner and receive the reward. I can see where this is going already. When Phil comes in (and he is coming) the team will start a nice turnaround over the next two years with the infusion of talent from the upcoming drafts and free agent pools. Then all of a sudden it will be Phil saved us from Isiah. I'm calling it now.

You ever been sitting at a red light when it turns green. You press the gas and just about the time you reach the middle of the intersection you hear the pansy livery cab guy honk his horn at you? He wasn't even looking to see that you had already left his ***, he's just an impatient toad. Now that same livery cab driver will run over someone to get in front of you and the time he does that he'll slowdown ten cars of traffic behind him to make sure he can gets the next fare standing on the corner. Just as long as he's in front he doesn't care that the cars behind him don't make the light.

The example above is how we as Knick fans are. Always reminiscing about how great the Knicks were during the Ewing era eventhough they were probably calling the players (i.e. Starks 0-fer) every name next to God everytime Jordan dropped a nickel at the Garden. ANALYZE...DON'T DRAMATIZE (I think that'll be my new call sign). With Isiah, Phil, and Marbs and Ariza and hopefully Sweetney and future players, the Knicks will eventually turn it around....in time.

And, as I say playfullly (in Popeye's voice) to my little 6 year old when she she doesn't get what she wants right then and there...Shad'up Wit'cha Whinning Will Ya
MaTT4281
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4/2/2005  8:39 AM
Thankyou JUNK! Here we got the same discussion with most of the same people, some people predicting the Zeke apocalypse, some people justifying everything Zeke does.
I gotta take a combination of sides on this one.
First of all, Isiah does need time before we can reasonably expect him to clean up some of this mess. He isn't the reason we are in this position, but outside of drafting Ariza and the late draft picks he brought in, he hasn't exactly helped all that much either. Don't get me wrong, Ariza and the picks are a good start, but we have to wait on the picks before we can judge them, and he's going to have to find multiple guys like Ariza for me to consider him successful. He needs time, period.
I'm willing to be patient with him, but that doesn't mean he should get a pass for any bad move he makes. Zeke bringing in more cap is always justified by Houston's contract...well after the contract is gone, can we assume he can bring in good players with out adding more over priced contracts? My favorite justification for his moves has to be using the Malik deal to make the Mo deal okay.
Zeke is better than the Layden era, but that bar is not set high at all...he's just better than the worst. Only time will tell if he can actually be successful.
diderotn
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4/2/2005  11:37 AM
Very well. Zeke needs time to prove his critics wrong.
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simrud
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4/2/2005  12:41 PM
How is critisizing IT for his movies dramatizing anything. If he makes moves I think are bad, I'll say it, that's what the forum is for. That's why people are baketball fans, they like the game, they know something about it, and they have opinions.

If a team that I watch a lot sucks, there is obviously a reason for it. In my opinion it is the players and coaching, gasp, what a novel concept. And guess what, IT has brought in every single player with the exception of KT, Houston, and Sweetney, as well as his now 2 head coaches.

So if a GM puts together a team, that is a loosing team, while spending freely in the process and giving up some definite assets, I say he is doing a bad job.

And to be ohnest, its getting to the point of Layden, as in I don't care about this team that much anymore. And that is the biggest indication of when thigns are bad, when I'm not looking forward to games and I could care less about anybody on the team.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Rich
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4/2/2005  2:23 PM
Posted by JUNKMEIN:

Ahhh, us New Yorkers. Such a group of drama queens and pansies we are. We're like little 4 year old girls that cry because their mommy won't give them chocolate before dinner and then cry harder because mommy said no instead of being patient enough to just finish dinner and receive the reward. I can see where this is going already. When Phil comes in (and he is coming) the team will start a nice turnaround over the next two years with the infusion of talent from the upcoming drafts and free agent pools. Then all of a sudden it will be Phil saved us from Isiah. I'm calling it now.

You ever been sitting at a red light when it turns green. You press the gas and just about the time you reach the middle of the intersection you hear the pansy livery cab guy honk his horn at you? He wasn't even looking to see that you had already left his ***, he's just an impatient toad. Now that same livery cab driver will run over someone to get in front of you and the time he does that he'll slowdown ten cars of traffic behind him to make sure he can gets the next fare standing on the corner. Just as long as he's in front he doesn't care that the cars behind him don't make the light.

The example above is how we as Knick fans are. Always reminiscing about how great the Knicks were during the Ewing era eventhough they were probably calling the players (i.e. Starks 0-fer) every name next to God everytime Jordan dropped a nickel at the Garden. ANALYZE...DON'T DRAMATIZE (I think that'll be my new call sign). With Isiah, Phil, and Marbs and Ariza and hopefully Sweetney and future players, the Knicks will eventually turn it around....in time.

And, as I say playfullly (in Popeye's voice) to my little 6 year old when she she doesn't get what she wants right then and there...Shad'up Wit'cha Whinning Will Ya

Yeah, as opposed to robotic, uncritical Knick fans who can't acknowledge an unpleasant reality.

At present, there is no "Phil" who works for the Knicks in any important capacity.

Without a dominant big man in his prime, Phil, Marbs, Isiah, Ariza, and Sweetney are going nowhere.
JUNKMEIN
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4/2/2005  8:07 PM
Posted by simrud:

How is critisizing IT for his movies dramatizing anything.

Oh it's not dramatizing anything at all to criticize Isiah for his moves....pros and cons. Not caring about anybody on the team because of it....that's Dramatizing. It ain't the end of the world. Look, let's be honest, having an extended tour in Iraq...that's bad. Having loved ones come back in body bags or in pieces over some oil...that's bad. The Knicks getting their arses kicked last night....was...like this site... entertainment. Love the site btw guys. Enjoy the ride dude, and breath

quote]
Posted by simrud:

as in I don't care about this team that much anymore. And that is the biggest indication of when things are bad, when I'm not looking forward to games and I could care less about anybody on the team.

[/quote]

"What goes' Up, must come Down...duu, duuu doop, Spinning wheels, round and round...duu, duuu doop Now on the other hand, my voice....now, now, that's Bad


[/quote]
Yeah, as opposed to robotic, uncritical Knick fans who can't acknowledge an unpleasant reality.

[/quote]

Please Read above...(pure unadulterated "Dramatizing"). And i'll have you know sir, there ain't a Robot in all of Brooklyn that can sing this tune like me "What goes' Up, must come Down...duu, duuu doop, Spinning wheels, round and round...duu, duuu doop (in Robby the Robots voice...just try to imagine
simrud
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4/2/2005  10:02 PM
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying, what I mean is, in terms of basketball, when you don't care about what your favorite team does anymore, that shows how much they suck.

As for how this relates life in general, this is like a 100th priority, I stop being upset about a bad loss 10 minutes after its over, its just a game.

The only reason people sound dramatic is cause they are just trying to make a point on a forum that is dedicated specifically to the team.

I'm pretty sure nobody here considers this a seroius matter at all.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
Hackett/Layden

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