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Gambling on unproven big men
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MS
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3/10/2005  10:36 AM
I'm sorry did you say that ben wallace has more talent the wilcox, ben wallace is all hard work, thats what rebounding and defense is, and he doesn't jump like Wilcox does....he is the best fit with this team
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OldFan
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3/10/2005  10:45 AM
Posted by MS:

What the Knicks need to concentrate on is conditioning and strength training these two things are no stressed enough and need to be implemented into these guarenteed long term deals.....

Ariza during the offseason needs to add 15 pounds of muscle
Crawford should gain at least 10 pounds of muscle or get considerably stronger if he can't gain the weight

Sweetney needs to get his fat ass a nutrionist, a personal trainer and get all the pastries out of his his...He needs to drop a minimum of 15 this offseason, and realistically for him to reach his potential that number is between 20-25...

Mo Taylor needs to learn what muscle definition is, keep him and sweetney away from each other....

And just by doing small things inside your team your defense and rebounding will improve....

And when i say 6'10 big guys i am not talking about TT, and by the way if our front line is 6'8 6'10 6'10 we are not small at all

And considering Thomas made the deal to get first round picks, draft big projects with those late picks....

Because he already blew a chance to get JR & Josh Smith, Jameer Nelson, and David Harrison because he just had to include a draft pick to get Marbury.....Isiah should draft Ismail Mohamed out of GT with his second round pick, Channing Frye will be their at the end of the first, but again we don't have roster space for four new players

Without the use of "Flax Seed Oil" or extremely good genetics gaining 10-15 lbs of muscle is not possible in a few months. Aziz and Crawford are not heavily muscled guys, over a number of years they might be able to add 10 or 15 lbs of muscle but not in a few months. Even if they could it would be a bad idea - there is no way of knowing what adding that much weight that quickly to a Finesse player will do to their game.
diderotn
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3/10/2005  11:08 AM
I agree, but Crawf can still develop into a Larry Hughes size of player....He can still add 10 lbs to his frame though without any problem, but he may endup a step slower......
The true Knickabocker..........
diderotn
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3/10/2005  11:10 AM
Yes, defensively I will even put him over Rodman...As for scoring, Wilcox may be better, but what has he done for the league so far???

Posted by MS:

I'm sorry did you say that ben wallace has more talent the wilcox, ben wallace is all hard work, thats what rebounding and defense is, and he doesn't jump like Wilcox does....he is the best fit with this team
The true Knickabocker..........
MS
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3/10/2005  12:08 PM
Wilcox is 21 i believe, most people don't come out of college till that age, many at 22, I would say Rodman is the most intelligent rebounder in the games history.....

And adding muscle is very possible in those amounts, most Rookies do it all the time, Ariza doesn't really work with weights you can tell, Crawford is going to get pushed around his entire career, he is 185 maybe less, there is no reason why he can't add 10 pounds of muscle in the offseason
Knixkik
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3/10/2005  1:06 PM
OK, my bad. I agree with you, Wilcox is not the answer at center because he stands a shade under 6'10. He's a power forward.
Posted by diderotn:

wrong, I wasn't refering to Curry at all...Although I don't like Curry's desire, I would still want him if we were able to trade for him....I was refering to the mentioning of Wilcox at Center, whom is no where as talented as Ben Wallace is...I don't mind a 6'11" Center at all, I just don't want to pay big money for them if their names are not: KG, Duncan, Shaq, Nowitsky, Ben, O'Neal.....

Go in the draft and use our picks to get a good young Center...We will need the cap space to resign Ariza and Sweetney....Unload Kurt Thomas for a Curry or Kwame would be a decent move, but in all actuality, we need a shot blocker and none of the two we've mentioned are shot blockers..Give me Chandler, Nene, or Dalember instead...


If you're refering to Curry, which i'm not positive you are, he stands 6'11, 285lbs, a great sized center. And although you're right about the shotblocker part, i don't believe just a shotblocker will put us over the top. The thing this team needs is a player that can score with his back to the basket, and having that at the center position is the answer to our problem. With Curry likely available this summer, we need to try to pick him up, and then get another guy who can rebound and block shots at the PF/C position. We might be able to address that in the draft. Marbury needs a player he can get the ball deep in the post to and expect for him to be able to score. I'm not talking about Sweetney because as good as he is, i'm still not convinced hes the answer at PF, being only 6'8 and not real athletic. Curry isn't real athletic, but is one of the league leaders in dunks, along with Shaq and Amare. We have to think big. Start Curry and Thomas up front. Get a big man like Vazquez and Petro in the draft. Plus we got Rose, Taylor, JYD, and Butler off the bench. Providing the guy we get in the draft is tall, a good post defender, and shotblocker, thats the type of team we need.
Bonn1997
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3/10/2005  1:12 PM
Wilcox measured in at 6'9 1/2" with shoes on in the NBA Pre-draft camp. He weighed only 218 then but has since put on about 15 to 20 pounds. http://nbadraft.net/2002predraftmeasurements.htm

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/10/2005 13:12:39]
Bonn1997
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3/10/2005  5:01 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

the bottom line is we are not getting ANY one of these guys. it's really not an issue.
You don't think the Knicks could get even one of these players by offering their best trade assets? You don't even think their lottery pick (#11 right now) plus the 2 late 1st rd picks plus an expiring contract for one of these players and a bad contract wouldn't work? You think each GM of the player would reject that offer? I think at least one would accept it and we might even be overpaying in some cases.

What other options do the GMs have if they don't want to keep the player but want to get something for the player before he leaves as an FA? What team would give a better deal than that in a sign and trade for Curry, Kwame, etc.?
crzymdups
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3/10/2005  5:32 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by BRIGGS:

the bottom line is we are not getting ANY one of these guys. it's really not an issue.
You don't think the Knicks could get even one of these players by offering their best trade assets? You don't even think their lottery pick (#11 right now) plus the 2 late 1st rd picks plus an expiring contract for one of these players and a bad contract wouldn't work? You think each GM of the player would reject that offer? I think at least one would accept it and we might even be overpaying in some cases.

What other options do the GMs have if they don't want to keep the player but want to get something for the player before he leaves as an FA? What team would give a better deal than that in a sign and trade for Curry, Kwame, etc.?

Well, a lot of it depends on the new CBA. But GMs have wised up recently (it seems like since the Dyess trade) and everyone in the league values young, cheap talent more than anything else.

Someone like Kwame or Curry MIGHT be available because their teams don't want to pay them. But Wilcox has another year of rookiedom.

But, even so, you're advocating trading a lotto pick, and thus potentially a cheap, young, talented player for someone at the beginning of a huge (probably) and long-term (definitely) extension. I don't like it. There's plenty of talent in this draft that's more intriguing than haven't-popped-yet wannabes like Curry, Wilcox and Kwame.

I think the best way to get our cap under control and build a good foundation is to KEEP this year's draft picks and draft quality. If we make a trade, we'll most certainly be trading Kurt AND the pick or Sweets AND the pick, and while we might get a better player back (not a certainty with Kwame), we'll be hurting our depth.

[Edited by - crzymdups on 03/10/2005 17:36:39]
¿ △ ?
Bonn1997
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3/10/2005  8:38 PM
The cap situation will never be under control in NY. Most of the players on the list in this thread have far more upside than the average player you get with the 11th pick (where the Knicks would be right now). With the 11th pick, you usually get guys like Nick Collison.
OldFan
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3/10/2005  10:20 PM
Posted by MS:

Wilcox is 21 i believe, most people don't come out of college till that age, many at 22, I would say Rodman is the most intelligent rebounder in the games history.....

And adding muscle is very possible in those amounts, most Rookies do it all the time, Ariza doesn't really work with weights you can tell, Crawford is going to get pushed around his entire career, he is 185 maybe less, there is no reason why he can't add 10 pounds of muscle in the offseason

Gaining 10lbs of muscle in a few months is difficult for anyone.
The fact that Craw is 185 indicates that he does not put muscle on easily and remember a guy who relies on speed and endurance has to be careful how he does it. He also can't afford to avoid working on his skills, endurance and speed - he can't just go into some body building or football type regiment. Everyone always hears about the guys who successfully bulk up and project everyone can do it - but without drugs there are a lot of body types that have a lot of trouble adding weight. For every example of someone who can gain that much muscle in a short span I can probably fine 5 guys who tried and couldn't.
franco12
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3/10/2005  10:36 PM
Posted by OldFan:
Posted by MS:

Wilcox is 21 i believe, most people don't come out of college till that age, many at 22, I would say Rodman is the most intelligent rebounder in the games history.....

And adding muscle is very possible in those amounts, most Rookies do it all the time, Ariza doesn't really work with weights you can tell, Crawford is going to get pushed around his entire career, he is 185 maybe less, there is no reason why he can't add 10 pounds of muscle in the offseason

Gaining 10lbs of muscle in a few months is difficult for anyone.
The fact that Craw is 185 indicates that he does not put muscle on easily and remember a guy who relies on speed and endurance has to be careful how he does it. He also can't afford to avoid working on his skills, endurance and speed - he can't just go into some body building or football type regiment. Everyone always hears about the guys who successfully bulk up and project everyone can do it - but without drugs there are a lot of body types that have a lot of trouble adding weight. For every example of someone who can gain that much muscle in a short span I can probably fine 5 guys who tried and couldn't.

Look at Reggie Miller- string bean, but I don't think he could 'bulk up'

granted, Crawford does need some muscle
Killa4luv
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3/10/2005  11:11 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

The cap situation will never be under control in NY. Most of the players on the list in this thread have far more upside than the average player you get with the 11th pick (where the Knicks would be right now). With the 11th pick, you usually get guys like Nick Collison.
My point exactly. Who in the draft is gonna be so helpful to our team. Who is gonna come close to curry's numbers right now? No one. Not Bogut, not taft, not warrick. No one.
Bonn1997
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3/10/2005  11:16 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by Bonn1997:

The cap situation will never be under control in NY. Most of the players on the list in this thread have far more upside than the average player you get with the 11th pick (where the Knicks would be right now). With the 11th pick, you usually get guys like Nick Collison.
My point exactly. Who in the draft is gonna be so helpful to our team. Who is gonna come close to curry's numbers right now? No one. Not Bogut, not taft, not warrick. No one.
Maybe if the team falls apart and gets something like the #5 pick or gets lucky and moves up higher than expected in the lottery I'd keep the pick. Otherwise, I think most people expect lottery picks to turn into something more impressive than they do on average (i.e., they overvalue draft picks and undervalue young players already in the league).
gunsnewing
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3/10/2005  11:21 PM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by Bonn1997:

The cap situation will never be under control in NY. Most of the players on the list in this thread have far more upside than the average player you get with the 11th pick (where the Knicks would be right now). With the 11th pick, you usually get guys like Nick Collison.
My point exactly. Who in the draft is gonna be so helpful to our team. Who is gonna come close to curry's numbers right now? No one. Not Bogut, not taft, not warrick. No one.

Tell that to Amare Stoudamire.

oh and Bogut will destroy Curry's 15pts & 5rebs!!!
Bonn1997
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3/11/2005  11:43 AM
Posted by gunsnewing:
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by Bonn1997:

The cap situation will never be under control in NY. Most of the players on the list in this thread have far more upside than the average player you get with the 11th pick (where the Knicks would be right now). With the 11th pick, you usually get guys like Nick Collison.
My point exactly. Who in the draft is gonna be so helpful to our team. Who is gonna come close to curry's numbers right now? No one. Not Bogut, not taft, not warrick. No one.

Tell that to Amare Stoudamire.

oh and Bogut will destroy Curry's 15pts & 5rebs!!!
RE-read the bold part. Of course there are exceptions! Heck, Ginobili was taken #57. But on average, a player drafted around #11 will be far inferior to Eddy Curry and will be closer to Nick Collison. Curry (or Nene) is simply a better bet than whoever you're likely to get at #11.
Gambling on unproven big men

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