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jackie butler was a FREE first round pick
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Marv
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3/4/2005  10:49 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by nyk4ever:

Don't worry about Mo Taylor and clogging up a roster spot becuase if it becomes a problem and he can't be traded then he'll be bought out. Look at Shandon Anderson this year, he was bought out without the blink of an eye, Penny was very close to being bought out in December as well. Isiah is playing with Dolans money and could care less if he buys players out and he wont hesitate to do so.
So lets recap. Isiah signs Vin Baker to 2 years $8mm. Then he trades for Mo Taylor who makes $9mm after Vin's deal expires, but he waives Mo Taylor.

Isiah just $15mm on NOTHING. Totally wasted. You dont think Cablevision will notice that? Thats not chump change. Shandon he could blame on LAyden. Who's he blaming that $15mm ? People around here live in a vacuum I swear. Wake up... there's no cross over MSGs door, this isnt a non-profit org.

Fish, I agree if that were to happen it would total out to a dumb move, but didn't someone recently post that Cablevision makes $700m/year on the Knicks? If so, then $15M actually IS chump change if Isiah is getting them into the playoffs and creating positive buzz, wouldn't you say?
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misterearl
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3/4/2005  10:54 AM
fish.mike - it ain't your money

Let it Go
once a knick always a knick
nyk4ever
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3/4/2005  10:57 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by nyk4ever:

Don't worry about Mo Taylor and clogging up a roster spot becuase if it becomes a problem and he can't be traded then he'll be bought out. Look at Shandon Anderson this year, he was bought out without the blink of an eye, Penny was very close to being bought out in December as well. Isiah is playing with Dolans money and could care less if he buys players out and he wont hesitate to do so.
So lets recap. Isiah signs Vin Baker to 2 years $8mm. Then he trades for Mo Taylor who makes $9mm after Vin's deal expires, but he waives Mo Taylor.

Isiah just $15mm on NOTHING. Totally wasted. You dont think Cablevision will notice that? Thats not chump change. Shandon he could blame on LAyden. Who's he blaming that $15mm ? People around here live in a vacuum I swear. Wake up... there's no cross over MSGs door, this isnt a non-profit org.

Fish what this all comes down to whether people here like it or not is that Dolan has faith in Isiah and he has given him the reins and a HUGE payroll to do it. In his tenure Isiah has already bought out 2 guys (Amechi and Shandon) has had the green light to do so on 2 other guys (Penny and Weatherspoon) I dont know why you guys care about Dolans money, who cares if he loses money. Do I think it is the right way to go about getting a championship calibur roster on this team? I could care less, just get one here.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
TMS
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3/4/2005  10:58 AM
like i said fish, don't worry about roster spots until we see if this Butler kid will even be able to make the roster next season...we have yet to even see him do anything in a summer league game & some of you are stressing about whether or not there will be an open roster spot for him next season...if he's worth holding onto, i'm sure something will be done to accomodate him...i have a very good feeling that at Isiah will be trying like hell to trade off either TT or Penny along w/KT in the offseason.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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3/4/2005  11:02 AM
Posted by misterearl:

fish.mike - it ain't your money

Let it Go

Good advice


misterearl:Forget the the Salary Cap Silliness
Even better advice

You guys are giving Fish some great advice.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/04/2005 11:02:21]
bernard
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3/4/2005  11:14 AM
Posted by GoNyGoNyGo:
Posted by bernard:

I'm hoping everyone's optimism on Butler is warranted, but I'm skeptical. To state the obvious: He didn't make the TWolves. They saw his body, his soft touch, etc. Even so, they apparently didn't think he was a worthwhile risk to keep around. Then, he played in the CBA and no one picked him up. We're not the only team who watched him play and saw his numbers.

Listen, I'm hoping he proves me wrong, and I don't mind us taking a flier on the kid, but let's be realistic. That's what it is. A longshot. Sometimes they pay out, more often, they don't. No one should be expecting he'll crack the rotation in the next year or two. If he does, it's a bonus.
Remember Sam Bowie was picked ahead of Michael Jordan too.

Sometimes teams miss a player or for whatever reason can't sign him. Someone the other day mentioned how Brad Miller was in Knicks camp and did not make it (I honestly don't remember that but..).

How about John Starks and anthony mason? Two CBA guys that Riley plucked and got lucky with. It can happen. WE GOTTA BELIEVE it will now too. It could be the key to this team coming out of this 4 season funk.
Nalod
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3/4/2005  11:28 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by misterearl:

fish.mike - it ain't your money

Let it Go

Good advice


misterearl:Forget the the Salary Cap Silliness
Even better advice

You guys are giving Fish some great advice.

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/04/2005 11:02:21]

You guys really don't think the bloated structure does not prevent us from fielding a better product?

IF its a means to an end, I can uderstand it, but the Taylor one does not. Unless he is planning on trading Sweets to move up and needs a low post PF in the interm.
bernard
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3/4/2005  11:30 AM
Of course we can get lucky with Jackie. Hope we do. I'm rooting for him as hard as any other Knick fan. Sure, there are plenty of John Starks, Anthony Mason stories. That's just the point, tho. We would be lucky.

This guy is the most over-hyped guy on this board now.

What do any of us really know about him other than positive reviews from former coach, good numbers in CBA and that Minnesota waived him? If he was 1st round quality, Minnesota wouldn't have waived him. They picked him up as a project and decided he wasn't worth the investment. Maybe they made a mistake. Maybe he'll blossom. But odds are against it. Let's be realistic.
Posted by bernard:
Posted by GoNyGoNyGo:
Posted by bernard:

I'm hoping everyone's optimism on Butler is warranted, but I'm skeptical. To state the obvious: He didn't make the TWolves. They saw his body, his soft touch, etc. Even so, they apparently didn't think he was a worthwhile risk to keep around. Then, he played in the CBA and no one picked him up. We're not the only team who watched him play and saw his numbers.

Listen, I'm hoping he proves me wrong, and I don't mind us taking a flier on the kid, but let's be realistic. That's what it is. A longshot. Sometimes they pay out, more often, they don't. No one should be expecting he'll crack the rotation in the next year or two. If he does, it's a bonus.
Remember Sam Bowie was picked ahead of Michael Jordan too.

Sometimes teams miss a player or for whatever reason can't sign him. Someone the other day mentioned how Brad Miller was in Knicks camp and did not make it (I honestly don't remember that but..).

How about John Starks and anthony mason? Two CBA guys that Riley plucked and got lucky with. It can happen. WE GOTTA BELIEVE it will now too. It could be the key to this team coming out of this 4 season funk.
fishmike
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3/4/2005  11:33 AM
what makes you think I care about the money? Wake up.. this is a business. I mention money because it affects decision making. Thats a fact. If it didnt than Webber would be a Knick. This organization is NOT bottomless, there is a ceiling and eventually we will hit it.

Thats what I am talking about. I dont care how much money Dolan spends or wastes. If I cant afford tickets because of this life goes on. What I am talking about are options. Does anyone fail to see how wasting money affects future decisions?

The fact that the Knicks can operate the way they do is a HUGE advantage, yet we have yet to really capitolize on it in terms of building a team.

You guys talk about Marbury deal. We took on over $100mm in future salary. I loved that trade. What if that same kind of trade comes along but this time we cant make it because we are just too far into the red? What then? Will you care about Shandon and Mo Taylor then? Or will you just drink kool-aid and assume Isiah didnt think Elton Brand or Lamaar Odom or whoever was the right 'fit' for this club.

My guess is you will opt for option 'b'
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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3/4/2005  11:35 AM
Nalod... dont try to confuse these people with logic.

I'm sure Mo Taylor's expiring contract will be a HUGE asset (some day)
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
diderotn
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3/4/2005  11:38 AM
I don't see Mo T as a problem. It is only a problem because right now we have 4 other guys that play the same position. However, at the end of the season, Isiah will resolve that situation. Anytime you have a young guy like Mo that possesses a postup game, it is huge especially when we are in the playoffs. With Mo and Sweet at PF, we are set. They can both play the post..The problem will be with keeping JYD and Malik, although both are very versatile.
The true Knickabocker..........
nyk4ever
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3/4/2005  11:50 AM
Well, apparently I have no logic becuase I disagree with Fish. I love how this can't be talked about in a civilized manner without name calling. Oh well.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Bonn1997
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3/4/2005  11:52 AM
Posted by fishmike:

Nalod... dont try to confuse these people with logic.
Getting a little arrogant with people you disagree with? That's not like you fish.

There's no shred of evidence that the Knicks are even remotely near the point you're talking about where they can't afford to take back more bad contracts in Marbury type deals. We've just seen evidence confirming the exact opposite (the two recent deals). Now the Knicks have about the same trade assets as they did when they pulled off the Marbury trade and should be able to do something pretty big this summer.
BigSm00th
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3/4/2005  11:52 AM
fish hasn't called anybody names, he's just making some pretty valid points it looks like.
#Knickstaps
Bonn1997
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3/4/2005  11:54 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:

Well, apparently I have no logic becuase I disagree with Fish. I love how this can't be talked about in a civilized manner without name calling. Oh well.
It's okay. All you can do is voice your opinion and if the other's person's best response is name-calling ("you're illogical"), then there's nothing you can do about it.
Bonn1997
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3/4/2005  11:56 AM
Posted by BigSm00th:

fish hasn't called anybody names, he's just making some pretty valid points it looks like.
I guess we didn't like being called illogical just because we disagree with him. But there's no need to make a big deal out of it. I'd rather just stick to the subject
fishmike
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3/4/2005  11:58 AM
nyk4ever, I'm sorry... which one of these do you think is more true?

a)waisting $20-$30mm to buy out players in no way impacts the Knicks and Cablevisions ability to make future deals involving taking on more salary and increasing operating costs and payroll.

b)Eventually money and operating costs will be a factor in making future decisions. Cablevision like any organization isnt bottomless and poor planning and management of funds will affect their business and future decisions like any other company.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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3/4/2005  12:02 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:

Nalod... dont try to confuse these people with logic.
Getting a little arrogant with people you disagree with? That's not like you fish.

There's no shred of evidence that the Knicks are even remotely near the point you're talking about where they can't afford to take back more bad contracts in Marbury type deals. We've just seen evidence confirming the exact opposite (the two recent deals). Now the Knicks have about the same trade assets as they did when they pulled off the Marbury trade and should be able to do something pretty big this summer.
I generally wouldnt bother to respond but then why didnt Isiah even call about Webber?

There was no name calling. Saying that wasting huge amounts of money will no way impact how a business is run IS NOT LOGICAL. Sorry, I dont know any softer way to respond.

Why would Isiah be willing to pay $10mm to Dampier a career underachiever on bad teams but not even call Webber, a guy you yourself was touting along with his 20/10/6. No shred of evidence indeed.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
nyk4ever
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3/4/2005  12:08 PM
Fish, it's obvious that the Knicks are not a bottomless source of money and that if these moves are made year after year then at some point way down the road, Dolan would say "thats it, no more careless spending." I dont remember who said it before but, Cablevision is making a TON of money on the Knicks. When you subtract payroll, all that other stuff, Cablevision is STILL making a ton of money on the Knicks. This is the reason why I think the Knicks arent better then what they are now because Dolan is happy with mediocrity and just barely making the playoffs becuase he makes so much money that way, why mess with it? He's a business man and not a Mark Cuban type owner thats just the way it is. Layden was doing the same thing Isiah is, but without getting the right players back in return. He brought players in that were not assets at all but had big contracts, Isiah is doing the same thing but with guys that are big time assets to us.

I know Dolan doesnt have a endless supply of money but buying Mo Taylor out is nothing to him especially when Isiah(whom he trusts more then anyone) says to him, I'll turn this 15 million dollar buyout into someone that will help butts in the seats and make you more money.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Nalod
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3/4/2005  12:12 PM
I think we might could all agree that the Knicks financhial structure is much different than other teams, and while it is a great advantage for us, we have squandered it time and time again! Our win to dollar ratio is awful!

We could be the evil empire, but instead we look for the quick fix historically. Isiah migh have a means to this end, but until it happens we won't fully understand the "plan".

I root for more fiscal responsablity so we have greater opportunity when such exists. Money to pay developing euros will be important. The Spurs are restocking with great talent and are under the cap! And while it helps to get a Duncan, they have had no high draft picks in years!

Regurgitation of expiring deals means you get players when they become undesirable or too expensive. Boozer? Only if we want to bail out Utah from that contract! Why do they want to get bailed? Cuz they made a mistake!

I don't want retreads or b-stock players! I want first quality players whom we develope and play four our team.
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jackie butler was a FREE first round pick
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