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webber awful again-anyone watch ? AI had 48 and 8
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Bonn1997
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3/2/2005  2:13 PM
I'll be watching closely to see if he can elevate Webber's game to a higher level than Bibby and Brad Miller did or at least keep it at about the same level or if playing with the "best guard" actually hurts Webber's game. I expect the latter

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/02/2005 14:14:12]
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newyorknewyork
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3/2/2005  3:10 PM
Webber was a superstar before Bibby & Miller. They didn't elevate his game. Iverson doesn't need to elevate Webber's game.

Webber gives them that 2nd superstar than must be doubled consistantly. Which Iverson never had. Which would allow Iverson to preserve himself just a little more so he doesn't have to get banged up as much.

Webber can create shots for other around him and make them get easy baskets. Add that with Iverson's dominating scoring ability and they will eventually make a good combination.
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newyorknewyork
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3/2/2005  3:22 PM
You know that Philly owed Toronto a 2005 pick top 8 protected. That could be a big reason for pushing for Webber to make sure they don't give up like a #9-12 lotto pick.
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Bonn1997
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3/2/2005  4:37 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Webber was a superstar before Bibby & Miller. They didn't elevate his game. Iverson doesn't need to elevate Webber's game.
But let's see if his game deteriorates with Iverson
eViL
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3/2/2005  5:18 PM
Webber has a pretty bad injury, plus he's playing on a new team in a new system and he ain't getting any younger. I think his numbers should be expected to drop. Ultimately it's not about the stats he puts up, it's about whether the Sixers win or not. If Webber's numbers decline, you can't pin it all on playing with AI. If the Sixers start winning then I don't think anyone will really care if Webber's numbers go down.
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Bonn1997
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3/2/2005  5:37 PM
Posted by eViL:

Webber has a pretty bad injury
He played great this year in Sac despite the injury.
plus he's playing on a new team in a new system
Of course you have to allow an adjustment period
Ultimately it's not about the stats he puts up, it's about whether the Sixers win or not.
agreed
If Webber's numbers decline, you can't pin it all on playing with AI. If the Sixers start winning then I don't think anyone will really care if Webber's numbers go down.
What if Webber stays reasonably healthy, but AI takes 25 shots a game, Webber goes from 21/11/6 with Sac to 14/9/3 with Philly, and the Sixers miss the playoffs or lose early in the playoffs? Is AI still the best guard we (or at least Fish) have ever seen, including Jordan?

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/02/2005 17:38:41]
eViL
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3/2/2005  5:51 PM
I think you should just let go of what Fish said regarding AI being the best that he's seen. Like I said before it's one thing to be the best, but when you see people in action the dynamic changes. Best ever is not the same as best to watch live.

Jordan was pretty much the greatest ever, but he didn't have the physical disadvantage to overcome that AI does. Seeing AI live, and seeing how this little dude gets the job done amongst giants makes him extremely impressive to watch in action. I think that's where the distinction lies.

I don't want to speak for Fish and I'm almost positive that he doesn't even care to further explain himself, so why not just let it go instead of harping on the issue?

---

If the Sixers continue to lose and Webber's game significantly depreciates, then I'm absolutely positive that there will be plenty of anti-AI articles for you to read and post and say "I told you so". Bookmark this thread if you haven't done so already.

[Edited by - eViL on 03/02/2005 20:04:49]
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Pharzeone
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3/2/2005  5:54 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Pharzeone, who's the star or good player that couldnt wait to get away from Iverson? Whos the best player he ever played with?

The closest I can think of is Jerry Stackhouse. They were drafted b2b by Phili and could have been the league most explosive backcourt ever. It didnt work out as it often doesnt (see Kidd, Mashburn, Jackson exibit A)

Iverson shoots 30 shots.. who on Phili do you want taking more?
I guess you shouldn't call them stars but I thought TT was hurt alot by going there, Stackhouse and AI never hit it off anyway, Hughes wanted out, much like Marbury, AI never trusted KVH, I think the fact that they were never able to get a star to push to come there via trade or FA, should be pointed out too.
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TMS
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3/2/2005  6:58 PM
AI is the best G in the game playing today outside of Kobe & maybe Lebron...it's simply ridiculous to even doubt this guy's talent level or what he's been able to do over his HOF career...the constant downgrading of this guy's game on this board just because he takes alot of shots is pathetic imo.
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Marv
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3/2/2005  8:12 PM
I'm with those singing the praises of AI, but not necessarily placing him in the same historical ranking. BTW, I thought that the year Philly went to the finals they really had the key down to maximazing AI's impact on a team's winning by surrounding him with outstanding role players but not stars.

Now as far as who I've seen in person, the best guards without a doubt were Oscar Robertson and Michael Jordan. And, as a matter of fact, I have them tied as the best guards to ever play the game. Next would come Jerry West and Magic Johnson, both of whom I was fortunate enough to have seen in person. Next wouid come John Havlicek (played as much guard as he did forward) and Walt Frazier. Btw, I would place Bob Cousy with those guys too, but never saw him in person (ain't THAT old ). Now AI is an awesome great player but he just doesn't rate in my book with these all-timers.

[Edited by - marv on 03/02/2005 20:14:34]
Bonn1997
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3/2/2005  8:52 PM
Posted by eViL:

I think you should just let go of what Fish said regarding AI being the best that he's seen. Like I said before it's one thing to be the best, but when you see people in action the dynamic changes. Best ever is not the same as best to watch live.

Jordan was pretty much the greatest ever, but he didn't have the physical disadvantage to overcome that AI does. Seeing AI live, and seeing how this little dude gets the job done amongst giants makes him extremely impressive to watch in action. I think that's where the distinction lies.

I don't want to speak for Fish and I'm almost positive that he doesn't even care to further explain himself, so why not just let it go instead of harping on the issue?

---

If the Sixers continue to lose and Webber's game significantly depreciates, then I'm absolutely positive that there will be plenty of anti-AI articles for you to read and post and say "I told you so". Bookmark this thread if you haven't done so already.

[Edited by - eViL on 03/02/2005 20:04:49]
Deal on bookmarking since you asked for it! I'll stop asking Fish to clarify the AI vs Jordan comment since he obviously doesn't want to

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 03/02/2005 20:57:25]
tkf
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3/2/2005  11:44 PM
The problem I have with AI with all his great skills, is how the offense is run through him. He usually shoots early in the shot clock, it is as if philly really does not run any plays, I looked at the philly game tonight in which they lost, and sometimes it looks like guys like webber and jackson take shots as if they have to take them then or they will never see the ball again, i think that is the problem I have with iverson, he takes a ton of shots and shoots like 41% or something like that, and I hate to make a big deal of that because guys like Q richardson and crawford shoot 42% but the key is they don't take 35 shots. I just don't think if webber was the webber of old, it would make a difference with philly simply because of how the offense is run through iverson so much, is that a good thing or bad thing, I don't know, but for me personally, I don't think it is a good thing because you underutilize the other skills of guys like webber. If shaq were on the sixers, how good of a player would iverson be playing the "other guy" ... who knows, never has happened and as long as he is in philly probably never will..
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bigpimpin
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3/2/2005  11:50 PM
Q and Crawford don't take 35 shots because they don't have to.

also, they don't pump out assists like Iverson either.

every player in the NBA has flaws and faults but if Iverson takes 10 shots a game, do you think the Sixers would have more success or even less success?

....
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tkf
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3/3/2005  12:06 AM
Posted by bigpimpin:

Q and Crawford don't take 35 shots because they don't have to.

also, they don't pump out assists like Iverson either.

every player in the NBA has flaws and faults but if Iverson takes 10 shots a game, do you think the Sixers would have more success or even less success?

....

if iverson just took 20 shots per game maybe they could of kept guys like Hughes and stackhouse and let them develop and win more games. I know every player has their faults, but iverson's is that he shoots too much and does not shoot a good percentage, on top of that he is the teams best player and his sucess does not lend itself to other allstar calibre players having success, it seems like that so far...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
newyorknewyork
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3/3/2005  12:08 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Webber was a superstar before Bibby & Miller. They didn't elevate his game. Iverson doesn't need to elevate Webber's game.
But let's see if his game deteriorates with Iverson

Webber is a superstar his game doesn't deteriorate because of other players. If his game deteriorates its because of his injury.
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Allanfan20
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3/3/2005  1:27 AM
Agreed. Webber is a bad example b/c of his injury. Eventually, Webber wont even have any lift on his shot, and those will stop falling too, and you can't blame Iverson for that either. Webber has had a great season, but he's still just a couple of years away from retirement, probably, just like Allan Houston.

The Sixers will probably go on a major run and compete for the East b/c of Webber, but this wont go on for the next couple of years, and you can't blame Iverson.
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bigpimpin
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3/3/2005  9:23 AM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by bigpimpin:

Q and Crawford don't take 35 shots because they don't have to.

also, they don't pump out assists like Iverson either.

every player in the NBA has flaws and faults but if Iverson takes 10 shots a game, do you think the Sixers would have more success or even less success?

....

if iverson just took 20 shots per game maybe they could of kept guys like Hughes and stackhouse and let them develop and win more games. I know every player has their faults, but iverson's is that he shoots too much and does not shoot a good percentage, on top of that he is the teams best player and his sucess does not lend itself to other allstar calibre players having success, it seems like that so far...

oh, you are talking about then. forgive me, i thought you meant now. Yes, then iverson could have shown different but now i think it's basically his team and as he once said, the burden of losing will come down to him, ultimately anyway

i kinda see what you are saying as far as a then young and talented hughes but jerry stackhouse got his touches, i remember it as being all he did was shoot and nothing else.

iverson prolly could have done different with hughes but i still will have to conclude that after larry hughes left, the Sixers did make an appearance in the Finals, so...

Iverson may have proven his 35 shots, 40% percentage to be "effective" with some hint of talent there

personally, i think Ivo is the best basketball player in the game. If you look at his stats, you may differ but if you look at his game, he does Big thangs
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Pharzeone
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3/3/2005  12:36 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Webber was a superstar before Bibby & Miller. They didn't elevate his game. Iverson doesn't need to elevate Webber's game.
But let's see if his game deteriorates with Iverson

Webber is a superstar his game doesn't deteriorate because of other players. If his game deteriorates its because of his injury.
If he doesn't have the ball in his hands, i am pretty sure his game will suffer. The problem with AI, he is not trusting guy, and his shot selection. Those two items won't change at this point of his career.
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Bonn1997
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3/3/2005  12:53 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by newyorknewyork:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Webber was a superstar before Bibby & Miller. They didn't elevate his game. Iverson doesn't need to elevate Webber's game.
But let's see if his game deteriorates with Iverson

Webber is a superstar his game doesn't deteriorate because of other players. If his game deteriorates its because of his injury.
If he doesn't have the ball in his hands, i am pretty sure his game will suffer. The problem with AI, he is not trusting guy, and his shot selection.
That's what I expect to happen.
newyorknewyork
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3/3/2005  2:50 PM
He also never had a player of Webber's calibre to play alongside of. A lot of superstars don't trust there role players. But Iverson knows how good Webber can be unless his injury brings him down.
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