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Poll: are you rooting for the Knicks to lose?


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nykdunk
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With the team in the current disarray it is, are you now rooting for the Knicks to lose?
yes
no
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Author Thread
TMS
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2/16/2005  8:41 AM
Posted by MikeFromNY:

It can probably be argued that experiencing losing might make many players appreciate winning more when that possibility arises.

lol...talk about reaching for any possible positive to draw out of a hopeless situation.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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MikeFromNY
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2/16/2005  8:45 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by MikeFromNY:

It can probably be argued that experiencing losing might make many players appreciate winning more when that possibility arises.

lol...talk about reaching for any possible positive to draw out of a hopeless situation.

I wasn't reaching for any positives at all.....Just pointing out that it can easily be argued either way.



I don't think it has any effect, really.
TMS
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2/16/2005  8:49 AM
it's all good dude...things are looking pretty bad these days...any positive that can be drawn is fine w/me.

when i watch the games i always find myself rooting for a win...when i consider the big picture i'd rather they lose more to get a better chance at winning the lottery.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
fishmike
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2/16/2005  9:56 AM
I'm a Yankee and a Knick fan. I don't care about payroll. I'd rather see the team spend $300 mil to win 60 games than $100 mil to win 59 games. It's monopoly money as far as I'm concerned since I'm not paying the salaries.
thats great Bonn... do you live in the area? Are you a season ticket holder to either team? I am while I have enjoyed the Yankee's run over recent years every year my tickets go up and up. It does matter and eventually there will be a backlash, there always is. The Knicks have gotten themselves boxed into a corner and its a vicious circle. Its a bad business model and it doesnt work anywhere else in the league. Using an expiring contract here or there is one thing. This idea that our $40mm in expiring deals is some great asset in terms of building the team is insane. Its not an asset, its a liability, and those deals will be more important in gaining this franchise some financial relief.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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2/16/2005  10:06 AM
Posted by fishmike:
I'm a Yankee and a Knick fan. I don't care about payroll. I'd rather see the team spend $300 mil to win 60 games than $100 mil to win 59 games. It's monopoly money as far as I'm concerned since I'm not paying the salaries.
thats great Bonn... do you live in the area? Are you a season ticket holder to either team?
No and No
BRIGGS
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2/16/2005  10:08 AM
Posted by GoNyGoNyGo:

I like many of you barely watch the games now. I watch to see Ariza, Sweetney, Craw and Marbury. The rresst are a waste of time. To that end, I watch them play hard under Herb. I give him credit for that. I like Herb and I do think he would be a good coach for this team but I put him behind PJ and Saunders as my pick to be the next HC of the Knicks.

As for losing, I want NY to win, but when they lose like last night, I do say that at least the pick will be a good one.

I firmly believe that NY is not as bad as they seem right now. A top pick who contributes, sign an athletic MLE, trade the expiring contracts next year or let them expire and you have the base for a good team by the follwoing season.

I did want to bring up one thing that burns me. Mike Francesa says the Knicks are so horrible that he cannot watch, yet he then says that IT says NY is younger but as MikeF says, the young guys are no good! HOW THE HECK DO YOU KNOW???? YOU ADMIT TO NOT WATCHING! So SMUG. I cannot see how anyone can watch Sweetney and Ariza and say they are no good. Are they superstars? Probably not, but Ariza has a chance to be darn good.

So, to sum up. Lose NO. Upset NO. 2 years YES. Good pick this year YES.


I understand what he is saying. I don't believe that M+theMD are anywhere near qualified to make serious judgements about the Knicks because they clearly don't watch many games, nor do they care. I watch almost EVERY fcn game win or lose + I have done so for, really my entire life.
I'm just being an honest fan when i say it's not good enough to except mediocrity, and accepting mediocrity right now is winning ballgames unfortunately. Im not saying try to tank, because we are doing one heckuva job losing with all of our players TRYING HARD to win. But for goodness sakes, doesnt that Charlotte Bobcat game show ANY fan that we are not as close as we may think we are to anything swell.

I dont care to hear we came back against this team that team, we played this team tough yadayada, we have injuries, we have that excuse, thats the true MEASURE of a losing mentality. Once a season is over, like our season is, Im not saying tank, BUT CLEARLY there is NO reason for Marbury to play more than 32 minutes, that Nazr SHOULDNT even be playing. That we SHOULD be playing Sundov Baker Brewer every game for a solid 10-12 minute stint. Not because they are going to be part of the team[and Isiah hopefully will not make the mistake of just putting anyone at the end of the bench and take a cue from memphis on just what an end of bench should look like}but it will save wear and tear on our core players and it will help the losing process. Every season is a new season. If we lost 70 games this year, it doesnt mean JACK for next season. But the ONLY thing we can count on to help us is leverage in the draft. what guarentee do we have with ending contracts? NOTHING!!! what guarntee do we have with our MLE---nothing! but we DO have leverage with a high draft pick


And let me say, if we do something like trade our pick for Antoine Walker[scks] or Al harrington[Tim Thomas redux], I will find a new hobby, because iM not dealing with the same old sht. If they dont rebuild through the draft OR find a trade that makes ABSOLUTE reason able sense, they literally can fck off from my perspective, Im willing to give all the time it takes to build a team that can stay together for 6-7 years and have a chance to win, thats all anyone can ask. but Im not settling for an attempt just to make the playoffs. Id rather get worse each year then settle for that.
RIP Crushalot😞
MikeFromNY
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2/16/2005  10:10 AM
Posted by fishmike:

[quote] Using an expiring contract here or there is one thing. This idea that our $40mm in expiring deals is some great asset in terms of building the team is insane. Its not an asset, its a liability, and those deals will be more important in gaining this franchise some financial relief.

When the expiring contracts stop getting us players like Marbury and Crawford, I'll stop seeing them as assets.
djsunyc
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2/16/2005  10:19 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:

I understand what he is saying. I don't believe that M+theMD are anywhere near qualified to make serious judgements about the Knicks because they clearly don't watch many games, nor do they care. I watch almost EVERY fcn game win or lose + I have done so for, really my entire life.
I'm just being an honest fan when i say it's not good enough to except mediocrity, and accepting mediocrity right now is winning ballgames unfortunately. Im not saying try to tank, because we are doing one heckuva job losing with all of our players TRYING HARD to win. But for goodness sakes, doesnt that Charlotte Bobcat game show ANY fan that we are not as close as we may think we are to anything swell.

I dont care to hear we came back against this team that team, we played this team tough yadayada, we have injuries, we have that excuse, thats the true MEASURE of a losing mentality. Once a season is over, like our season is, Im not saying tank, BUT CLEARLY there is NO reason for Marbury to play more than 32 minutes, that Nazr SHOULDNT even be playing. That we SHOULD be playing Sundov Baker Brewer every game for a solid 10-12 minute stint. Not because they are going to be part of the team[and Isiah hopefully will not make the mistake of just putting anyone at the end of the bench and take a cue from memphis on just what an end of bench should look like}but it will save wear and tear on our core players and it will help the losing process. Every season is a new season. If we lost 70 games this year, it doesnt mean JACK for next season. But the ONLY thing we can count on to help us is leverage in the draft. what guarentee do we have with ending contracts? NOTHING!!! what guarntee do we have with our MLE---nothing! but we DO have leverage with a high draft pick


And let me say, if we do something like trade our pick for Antoine Walker[scks] or Al harrington[Tim Thomas redux], I will find a new hobby, because iM not dealing with the same old sht. If they dont rebuild through the draft OR find a trade that makes ABSOLUTE reason able sense, they literally can fck off from my perspective, Im willing to give all the time it takes to build a team that can stay together for 6-7 years and have a chance to win, thats all anyone can ask. but Im not settling for an attempt just to make the playoffs. Id rather get worse each year then settle for that.

briggs, that was really a good response.

you're right, we are so far away from really going anywhere. we have pretty much 4 pieces of which 1 is really good (marbury), 2 is on the upside (crawford), and 2 are rookies that we have no idea where they're headed (ariza, sweetney). outside of that, the only real asset we have is this #1 pick. expiring deals are assets as well (and getting marbury and crawford are examples) BUT they have to be used on the right player otherwise you set yourself back years.

the next 6 months will be a VERY scary time as a knicks fan. it will determine what the next 5 years will look like.
djsunyc
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2/16/2005  10:29 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:
I'm a Yankee and a Knick fan. I don't care about payroll. I'd rather see the team spend $300 mil to win 60 games than $100 mil to win 59 games. It's monopoly money as far as I'm concerned since I'm not paying the salaries.
thats great Bonn... do you live in the area? Are you a season ticket holder to either team?
No and No

i am a season ticket holder for 2 years now. i sit up in the 400's, i love the seats and they're the only tickets that didn't go up in price this year ($40/seat). my friend's wanted to move down to the 300's this season but i said no. first off, b/c i would never pay $79/seat (double of what i pay now) to watch a whole season of bball and secondly, b/c unless the team is championship level, what's the point?

i keep telling my friends, "could you imagine if we paid double for this crap" and now, we're in a state of whether we should renew or not. that's how far it has come. the problem tho, is that you have to start paying for season tix in may to renew, which is before the draft and the summer. they're smart, i'm not.

so i do care how much $$$'s they add. it's very simple to say no when you don't buy the tickets (and 1 or 2 games a year doesn't count). although you are entitled to your opinion bonn, speaking from first hand experience, it does matter what the payroll is.
fishmike
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2/16/2005  10:31 AM
hell.. this weekend could do that. When all the GMs are palling around thats when so many trades get done, especially the multi team trades.

Briggs, I agree with you regarding Walker 100%, but IF (and I stress IF) our pick is in the 7-9 range whats wrong with trading for a guy like Al Harrington? A versatile 24 year old 2-way player that can play and defend 4 positions. I wouldnt call that selling out to win now by any means, especially if they choices are guys like McCants, Graham or the kid Green.

Harrington is 2-3 years older then half the players coming out. If we dont have a shot at a guy like Bogut, taking a guy like Harrington is a solid plan.

In the meantime however lose lose lose.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
MikeFromNY
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2/16/2005  10:35 AM
Posted by djsunyc:



so i do care how much $$$'s they add. it's very simple to say no when you don't buy the tickets (and 1 or 2 games a year doesn't count). although you are entitled to your opinion bonn, speaking from first hand experience, it does matter what the payroll is.

The fact that they have a high payroll and that they have expensive tickets does not mean that one is the cause of the other.



I ain't no economist....But supply and demand really happens, you know.

If they didn't know that people would pay the high price, they wouldn't charge the high price. If they didn't know that they could afford the high payroll, they would do something about it.


If they were ever to lower ticket prices, it'd be because people stopped paying for them....the payroll has minimal affect there, I think.

[Edited by - MikeFromNY on 02/16/2005 10:36:16]

[Edited by - MikeFromNY on 02/16/2005 10:46:50]
fishmike
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2/16/2005  10:38 AM
djsunyc , good post.

Its easy to say look we got Marbury and Crawford with expiring contracts but those deals also cost us 2 #1s. I'm ok with that buy you HAVE to find ways to add good players cheap and that means executing in the draft. Look at Det... they dont have a single max player. Every starter has a reasonable contract if not below market value. We have TT/Penny/JYD/Moochie/Baker giving us little to nothing yet they make more than Detriot's starting line up.

People think this doesnt matter but it does... it affect how the team does business and how they make decisions and what kind of players they can and cant add.

Thinking payroll doesnt matter just doesnt make you look smart. I was for adding Marbury and Crawford and still am. I think they can be good pieces moving forward for a long time, BUT this team has a good 2 year window to really get away from their old ways change the way they do business. I'm praying Isiah has the forsight for such a task
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Bonn1997
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2/16/2005  10:41 AM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by fishmike:
I'm a Yankee and a Knick fan. I don't care about payroll. I'd rather see the team spend $300 mil to win 60 games than $100 mil to win 59 games. It's monopoly money as far as I'm concerned since I'm not paying the salaries.
thats great Bonn... do you live in the area? Are you a season ticket holder to either team?
No and No

i am a season ticket holder for 2 years now. i sit up in the 400's, i love the seats and they're the only tickets that didn't go up in price this year ($40/seat). my friend's wanted to move down to the 300's this season but i said no. first off, b/c i would never pay $79/seat (double of what i pay now) to watch a whole season of bball and secondly, b/c unless the team is championship level, what's the point?

i keep telling my friends, "could you imagine if we paid double for this crap" and now, we're in a state of whether we should renew or not. that's how far it has come. the problem tho, is that you have to start paying for season tix in may to renew, which is before the draft and the summer. they're smart, i'm not.

so i do care how much $$$'s they add. it's very simple to say no when you don't buy the tickets (and 1 or 2 games a year doesn't count). although you are entitled to your opinion bonn, speaking from first hand experience, it does matter what the payroll is.
Even when I visit my family in NY, I have more fun watching on TV than going to the games. I feel sorry for you guys if you have to spend more on seats, but it still doesn't affect me
fishmike
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2/16/2005  10:41 AM
I ain't know economist
that about say it man. You dont need 4 years of gun and butter to figure this out.

MSG revenue comes from tickets, TV and merchandise
MSG costs come from payroll, and operating costs

When costs go WAAAAY up as they have in recent years just where do you think the revenue is coming from to balance that? Please Mike
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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2/16/2005  10:44 AM
Even when I visit my family in NY, I have more fun watching on TV than going to the games. I feel sorry for you guys if you have to spend more on seats, but it still doesn't affect me
you still dont get it.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
MikeFromNY
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2/16/2005  10:48 AM
Posted by fishmike:
I ain't no economist
that about say it man. You dont need 4 years of gun and butter to figure this out.

MSG revenue comes from tickets, TV and merchandise
MSG costs come from payroll, and operating costs

When costs go WAAAAY up as they have in recent years just where do you think the revenue is coming from to balance that? Please Mike

No need to be so condescending.




Anyway....It's very possible that that they know people always have and always will pay high prices....which makes it possible for them to have such a high payroll.

[Edited by - MikeFromNY on 02/16/2005 10:50:50]
fishmike
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2/16/2005  11:00 AM
Mike, and honest sorry if I came off like a dick. Your right about demand, and yes thats definatly part of the prices. The thing with the payroll is because of the prices the Knicks are obligated to field a competitive team. That pressure has forced guys like Layden to horribly overpay guys desperate to stay competitive. Thats escalated the salary, which has raised ticket prices, which forced management to spend more, trade draft picks and take risks on veteran players to stay competitive.

Look where its gotten us.

Guys like Bonn will say payroll doesnt affect them, but if you stop and think about it how cant it? The Knicks are a business, and they are owned by a company.

This team needs a long term play and change in philosophy. If that doesnt happen NOTHING will change. They will always be adding payroll, taking other team's overpriced cast offs and fans will be wondering why this team with insane ticket prices and astronomical payroll never makes it past the first round and never has dynamic young players like Lebron or Bogut or Dwight Howard or Ben Gordon or Okafor or Amare, etc etc etc
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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2/16/2005  11:03 AM
Posted by fishmike:

hell.. this weekend could do that. When all the GMs are palling around thats when so many trades get done, especially the multi team trades.

Briggs, I agree with you regarding Walker 100%, but IF (and I stress IF) our pick is in the 7-9 range whats wrong with trading for a guy like Al Harrington? A versatile 24 year old 2-way player that can play and defend 4 positions. I wouldnt call that selling out to win now by any means, especially if they choices are guys like McCants, Graham or the kid Green.

Harrington is 2-3 years older then half the players coming out. If we dont have a shot at a guy like Bogut, taking a guy like Harrington is a solid plan.

In the meantime however lose lose lose.

I don't trust Al Harrington. I wouldn't give up anything more than an expiring deal for him. He doesn't have a good basketball IQ, or any sort of fire to the way he plays. I actually wouldn't mind chasing Walker with the MLE, if Swift was gone. But I would have a heart attack if we traded our lotto pick for him.


As for the team's payroll, I think it would be very easy to just lop TT, Penny, Baker and Moochie off the payroll and get down to a respectable $70 million. When Allan leaves, it will be more like $60 million.

I don't buy season tickets, but have friends who do and I go to some games with them. I think the tix wouldn't be much cheaper with a lower payroll because the demand is so high, but I do think it would change the way the team was run somewhat. It'd be for the better.
¿ △ ?
djsunyc
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2/16/2005  11:04 AM
Posted by MikeFromNY:
Posted by fishmike:
I ain't no economist
that about say it man. You dont need 4 years of gun and butter to figure this out.

MSG revenue comes from tickets, TV and merchandise
MSG costs come from payroll, and operating costs

When costs go WAAAAY up as they have in recent years just where do you think the revenue is coming from to balance that? Please Mike

No need to be so condescending.




Anyway....It's very possible that that they know people always have and always will pay high prices....which makes it possible for them to have such a high payroll.

[Edited by - MikeFromNY on 02/16/2005 10:50:50]

when a family of 4 want to go to a basketball game and need to shell out over $3-400 for the night, then something is really wrong. you want to blame the fans for going to the games, fine. you want to blame ownership for giving out these ridiculous salaries, fine. whatever the case may be, it's a nasty vicious cycle.

it's all about money, not winning. that's the bottom line when it comes to owners. is the team in the green or in the red. that's it. the difference is that some owners surround themselves with people that know what they're doing and some don't.

but speaking as a fan that gives them my $$$'s, i'm definitely perpetuating this crap. i love basketball. i love the knicks. i work 10 blocks away from the garden. and i'm fortunate enough to afford the tickets, and as a result of that, i'm also a contributor to the msg's philosophy.

if i lived in memphis, i would've been a grizzlies fan. i would've bought season tickets down there also. BUT the owner is not screwing me out of it b/c he's working on a budget and knows he needs the top guys to run the team. we have an owner that doesn't have a budget and makes up all his poor decisions and losses by taking $$$'s out of my pocket with price hikes. that's the difference.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 02/16/2005 11:07:00]
MikeFromNY
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2/16/2005  11:10 AM
Posted by fishmike:

The thing with the payroll is because of the prices the Knicks are obligated to field a competitive team. That pressure has forced guys like Layden to horribly overpay guys desperate to stay competitive. Thats escalated the salary, which has raised ticket prices, which forced management to spend more, trade draft picks and take risks on veteran players to stay competitive.

Like I said....There's really no way that you can say that they didn't take on large contracts simply because they knew they could afford it.

In your mind, they wanted high ticket prices, so they added payroll to field a better tam, which made them raise ticket prices.

In my mind, they knew they could have high ticket prices, so they added payroll when they wanted to.

I think my "theory" makes much more sense.....But, like I said...I ain't no economist.
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