Posted by TMS:

Posted by rvhoss:

Posted by TMS:


i actually thought it was fairly obvious that Van Horn was better than Nazr...didn't think i needed to comment on it.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. Sorry.

mind if i ask u on what grounds? look at the career stats, & what VH was doing prior to his injury this year...Nazr's having the best season of his career right now & he's not even close to VH's career averages...they are both about the same age.

Career averages make Jermaine O'Neal look like a mediocre player at best. Career #s only matter if a player is still playing at the same level he's played at his whole career, which is the case for neither Van Horn nor Nazy

Let me get this straight.

KVH, in an average year for him puts up 17 and 7.5 rpg at SF. He plays hard every night, doesn't complain, consistently shoots the 3 well and actually plays like a 6'10" SF. He's a starter on almost any team.

Nazr Mohammed, in his best FULL season put up 10 and 8. Those are hardly all-star numbers. Most of his career, he's been a bench player, for good reason. Nazr's not a bad piece to have, but better than Van Horn? I just don't see the logic, especially when we're so poor at the SF position to start with. I'm convinced Nazr isn't a starter on at least half of the teams in the NBA right now. Feel free to disagree and continue to bash Van Horn again and again, when you were his biggest supporter before the trade.

At the end of the day, I say we have a better record with Doleac and Van Horn than Nazr and TT. Any way you slice it, this trade wasn't a steal by any stretch and right now, you can't say we got ripped, either.

Btw, just for reference. Last year, pre-Marbury we were 20-25, and this year, through the same number of games, we were 18-27. Weird, huh?

Of course, I'm sure you'll point out that a few of those games last year were from the Isiah-lead Knicks. Invalid argument, considering Isiah's leading these Knicks now to a worse record. Maybe it's simply falling apart because of lack of chemistry and how weak our frontcourt was. At least last year, we tried to put together a decent frontcourt: Mutombo, McDyess, Van Horn, Kurt Thomas, Sweetney, Lampe, Doleac, Harrington, Spoon (we had way too many PFs, I'll admit) was way years better than Baker, JYD, TT, Kurt Thomas, Sweetney, Sundov, Nazr.

Regardless, you don't win in the NBA with a truly mediocre frontcourt and guess what? We're not winning. That's the bottom line.

That's the problem, Fish. Good players are consistent. Role players are the ones who show flashes, more often than not.

At least before, there were guys on the team who were borderline stars, or outright just stars, if healthy. Right now, we don't have a single frontcourt player who you can honestly classify as anything more than a roleplayer.

I absolutely agree about increasing speed and athleticism in the frontcourt. I just think that we needed find the right mix of athleticism and talent. We've traded talent for athleticism and it hasn't shown anything in the resulting W-L records.

Posted by fishmike:

my guess is Isiah probably overestimated Marbury and Crawford's ability to make guys better, as well as underestimated the talent in the East.

We all know TT isnt great, but I think expecting something close to the 15/5 and 48% he gave us last year was realistic. To me thats where the roof starts to cave. Instead you get 10/3 and 39% and your asking Crawford to jack more shots and JYD to play SF and so on. A couple guys get nicked up, losses start to mount and a team that was bordering on somewhere between mediocre and good collapses.

I agree with that. I think that was a killer. You expect TT to put up 15 and 5. I actually said before the season that if TT could up it a notch, improve his rebounding, get to something like 14 and 7 or 15 and 6, and he'd be a great asset to this team. Instead, he did the opposite; he completely regressed. So, a team I had slated as a 45 win team becomes a 30-35 win team because one of the team's most important players forgot how to play and it effected the whole team.

As for Marbury and Crawford, they've been good, not great, not terrible. For us to become real contenders, they need players who don't quit and they both need to be better than just *good*.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Btw, just for reference. Last year, pre-Marbury we were 20-25

huh? we were 25-22 with Marbury last year. Somehow I don't think our total season record was 45-47, unless I missed ten games!

[Edited by - Bonn1997 on 02/02/2005 11:52:28]

Ok. I messed that up. It was 14-19, not 20-25. Ok, guess my memory failed. I can't find last year's game logs right now, but I think you're right this time. That must've only happened on my playstation. :-P Disregard that point.

i would be upset if nazr is still on this team next year and absolutely pissed if he gets an extension (which i've read in more than one place).

kvh is better than tim.
isiah said so himself.

so lets see what isiah turns nazr into. if he's still around, then the trade is a bust.