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we are not one step closer to winning anything than when laydumb was here
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islesfan
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1/16/2005  11:35 AM
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by TMS:

1 thing i can say is getting Jamal Crawford & Jerome Williams for scrap parts with expiring contracts was an awesome trade for the Knicks...& Isiah's sole draft pick, Trevor Ariza, is already the steal of last year's draft & could very well turn out to be our starting SF for the foreseeable future with a little more work on his game...props must go to IT for those moves, regardless of how you feel about the current state of the team or about Isiah personally.
These were great moves, but the real question I have for the anti-knick knick fans is:

What is it that you think he should have done? and
Why is it that you say you tha you have the patience to wait as we suck for 3 years, when you can't even wait until the trade deadline of this season before getting your panties in a bunch? Between this summer and next season, IT will have the best chance to make moves considering the chips we have. Based on the players he moves for, you should judge on that. But not before that when he has already made moves for 2 young stars, a great draft pick and a solid big man?

If we're going to "suck" for the next 3 years anyway, until 2008 like djs says, then why didn't we just tear it down and start from scratch instead of accumulating these expensive losers whose former teams suddenly become good after they've left? Why are we looking to build around a 32 yr old PG making max money when we could have tanked it and built up with multiple top 5 lottery picks by 2008? If you guys believe so deeply in Isiah's draft record then you surely believe that he could have done pretty well with really high draft picks over a 3-4 year period.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
AUTOADVERT
BRIGGS
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1/16/2005  11:42 AM
we changed the entire roster over, weve spent 300MM$ in long term deals

but do I feel like we are realistcially an iota closer to being a player like we were in the 1990-2000 era? No. I said I dont even think all Isiah's moves put together had as much potential as getting Mcdyess[even though i was honestly against that trade, I understood it and everyone saw what might have been even in a flash]

We have so much age disparity, we have a mish mosh of castoffs from other teams put together here.
i was thinking about how we spent our money and how our depth should BE, and to me it appears inchorent.
the word rebuilding, well, I dont think you are rebuilding when you sign Vin Baker for 7.5mm$
we couldnt make better due of the crp that has come back to haunt us at the back end of the bench.

Yes Ariza is a good pick, Sweetney is at a minimum a stellar bench player who could start and go 16-10 on many night. Im all for giving Mike a chance to play 35-40 minutes, but they just won't. Id be willing to sit either Nazr or Thomas, but they wont do it.

Marbury dominates the ball so much, I can see why he has critiscm. hes a great player, but darn if I think hes a winning player because he just hasnt proven it in his career.

Some dudes were saying this is the worst line up in the league without TT and JC, probably the same people who wanted to sit them and strt allan and JYD.
people say Marbury is the best PG in the league and Nazr and Kt are fringe frontcourt all-stars in the east
-that weve had a fiestier bench with JYD, Sweetney and Areiza

+ we have had Crawford for 26 games[where we were just 13-13] we were the only team in the league to use the same line up for the first 26
and yeah weve had some nicks and bruises, but its not like the Lakers losing Kobe Bryant? You lose one Kobe Bryant--that=losing Marbury and a KT combined. Should we beat the Nets and NO hornets AT HOME with what we have? yes! and more people should take notice that we have not. IF we didnt luck out 3 times this year, I think things would be at the surface more.

I dont see the light at the end of the tunnell--atleast not yet. I still feel that we will be aplayer for Chris webber next year--I think thats a premium guy that would likely be available AFTER the season

Now this offseason will atleast make some things clearer. we could go get Webber, give up everything young and say this is it, were going to run at it for 3 years and if it doesnt work, will start from scratch?? I dont know, I really dont know. But i do know that we are just as many miles away from the prize as we were 4 years ago.
RIP Crushalot😞
Marv
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1/16/2005  11:47 AM
Posted by islesfan:


If we're going to "suck" for the next 3 years anyway, until 2008 like djs says, then why didn't we just tear it down and start from scratch instead of accumulating these expensive losers whose former teams suddenly become good after they've left? Why are we looking to build around a 32 yr old PG making max money when we could have tanked it and built up with multiple top 5 lottery picks by 2008? If you guys believe so deeply in Isiah's draft record then you surely believe that he could have done pretty well with really high draft picks over a 3-4 year period.

Aren't there 3 answers to that question:

1. New York is simply not the place to sustain multiple 20-win disaster seasons.

2. Especially when those teams are STILL going to be grossly over the cap.

and 3. When in all likelihood whoever was hired as GM was DIRECTED by the owner to make the team more competitive now.
islesfan
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1/16/2005  12:08 PM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by islesfan:


If we're going to "suck" for the next 3 years anyway, until 2008 like djs says, then why didn't we just tear it down and start from scratch instead of accumulating these expensive losers whose former teams suddenly become good after they've left? Why are we looking to build around a 32 yr old PG making max money when we could have tanked it and built up with multiple top 5 lottery picks by 2008? If you guys believe so deeply in Isiah's draft record then you surely believe that he could have done pretty well with really high draft picks over a 3-4 year period.

Aren't there 3 answers to that question:

1. New York is simply not the place to sustain multiple 20-win disaster seasons.

2. Especially when those teams are STILL going to be grossly over the cap.

and 3. When in all likelihood whoever was hired as GM was DIRECTED by the owner to make the team more competitive now.

1. That's a bunch of BS. As it stands now we're being told that this team isn't very good and that it'll take some time. I guess you think that we're a city that accepts mediocrity at best. If we had a young stud like Howard or Okefor to build around I think we'd be more than understanding.

2. Going even further over the cap and making the situation much worse isn't the way to fix the problem. If they use their expiring contracts to acquire even bigger contracts, like they did with Marbury and Crawford, then the problem will only be exacerbated even further. And for what? Another player whose current team doesn't want anymore.

3. Dolan is problem 1 and Isiah and his "leadership" is problem 1a. As long as we keep giving them our money for mediocrity, we'll never see a championship.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
djsunyc
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1/16/2005  12:20 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by Killa4luv:
Posted by TMS:

1 thing i can say is getting Jamal Crawford & Jerome Williams for scrap parts with expiring contracts was an awesome trade for the Knicks...& Isiah's sole draft pick, Trevor Ariza, is already the steal of last year's draft & could very well turn out to be our starting SF for the foreseeable future with a little more work on his game...props must go to IT for those moves, regardless of how you feel about the current state of the team or about Isiah personally.
These were great moves, but the real question I have for the anti-knick knick fans is:

What is it that you think he should have done? and
Why is it that you say you tha you have the patience to wait as we suck for 3 years, when you can't even wait until the trade deadline of this season before getting your panties in a bunch? Between this summer and next season, IT will have the best chance to make moves considering the chips we have. Based on the players he moves for, you should judge on that. But not before that when he has already made moves for 2 young stars, a great draft pick and a solid big man?

If we're going to "suck" for the next 3 years anyway, until 2008 like djs says, then why didn't we just tear it down and start from scratch instead of accumulating these expensive losers whose former teams suddenly become good after they've left? Why are we looking to build around a 32 yr old PG making max money when we could have tanked it and built up with multiple top 5 lottery picks by 2008? If you guys believe so deeply in Isiah's draft record then you surely believe that he could have done pretty well with really high draft picks over a 3-4 year period.

twas a sarcastic comment btw.

i think we're on the right track. it all depends what happens this offseason and next trade deadline. if we don't get a young athletic big and go after a webber type by givin up our youth, i'll kill isiah just like some of you do.

only time will tell. and so far, i'm encouraged with the type of moves that have been made. all we can do is sit and be patient.

i made a post a couple of days ago asking whether building around marbury is what we should do since i believe that "window" is only 3-4 years big. or should we find that PF/C to build around and pair him up with a PG of marbury's caliber? i think that's the more important question.
s3231
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1/16/2005  12:24 PM
" we changed the entire roster over, weve spent 300MM$ in long term deals

but do I feel like we are realistcially an iota closer to being a player like we were in the 1990-2000 era? No. I said I dont even think all Isiah's moves put together had as much potential as getting Mcdyess[even though i was honestly against that trade, I understood it and everyone saw what might have been even in a flash]

We have so much age disparity, we have a mish mosh of castoffs from other teams put together here.
i was thinking about how we spent our money and how our depth should BE, and to me it appears inchorent.
the word rebuilding, well, I dont think you are rebuilding when you sign Vin Baker for 7.5mm$
we couldnt make better due of the crp that has come back to haunt us at the back end of the bench."


Thats the thing, I don't think we are closer to being a player like in the 1990-2000 era RIGHT NOW, but I do think that Isiah has put us in a decent position to be a player in 2 or 3 years. As for Marbury, I'm not going to say he is a winner because he hasn't won anything yet, but you also have to understand that he has never been but into a winning situation. With NJ he didn't have the same team that Kidd had, Kidd had a better and healthier supporting cast. With the Suns, Steph almost got his team past the Spurs (who would go on to win the title that year) even though Amare was not the dominant player he is right now. Nash has a much better and again healthier (because Amare was injured last year) supporting cast. If we surround Steph with the right players, I think he will do fine. Seriously, the NBA MVP (KG) couldn't even win a playoff series until last season when finally had a good supporting cast. Steph has a winner's mentality this season (he has showed it with his unselfish play) unlike past seasons so I'm not worried about him. As for Baker, that just gives us another expiring contract to work with next year and that signing was mostly done as a favor for Goodwin since he helped us get Jamal. Again, I don't see how Isiah has done anything to screw us over. I agree that we are pretenders until Isiah can pull off another trade to land us a talented big man that can play ball, but I do think that Isiah will have the resources to do that.

[Edited by - s3231 on 01/16/2005 12:26:17]
"This is a very cautious situation that we're in. You have to be conservative in terms of using your assets and using them wisely. We're building for the future." - Zeke (I guess not protecting a first round pick is being conservative)
gunsnewing
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1/16/2005  1:43 PM
that is a good point. what if we turn TT/Penny into more overpaid plaers with long contracts that teams wanted to move. It would be the same old knicks...never getting over that championship hump. I don't know but i am a lot more accepting of the idea of rebuilding this morning and Isiah is the guy i want running the show. Imagine what he could do with first round picks if he got Ariza at #44!

[Edited by - gunsnewing on 01/16/2005 13:51:29]
fishmike
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1/16/2005  2:37 PM
I dont get it... we are no worse to tear it down now then when Layden was here. Now we have Marbury and Crawford signed long term. How many games and high picks were we going to get with KT/KVH/Deke/Shandon/Spoon/Houston/Eisley. Sorry but as bad as they are that squad is good enough to win 30 plus games an year and ensure your never better than than 8-10 in the lottery.

If Isiah does nothing beside draft guys and let expensive vets walk your in the same boat. The only difference is Isiah hasnt traded a pick from someone thats not an impact player.

In one season he's made Sweetney a key part of the rotation. Ariza is as good a young player as anyone from that last draft not named Ok4 or Dwight Howard and his main offseason aquisition is 24 years old. When this is the pattern why cant people be a little more patient? (Aside from just hating on the GM)
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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1/16/2005  3:03 PM
Posted by fishmike:

I dont get it... we are no worse to tear it down now then when Layden was here. Now we have Marbury and Crawford signed long term. How many games and high picks were we going to get with KT/KVH/Deke/Shandon/Spoon/Houston/Eisley. Sorry but as bad as they are that squad is good enough to win 30 plus games an year and ensure your never better than than 8-10 in the lottery.

If Isiah does nothing beside draft guys and let expensive vets walk your in the same boat. The only difference is Isiah hasnt traded a pick from someone thats not an impact player.

In one season he's made Sweetney a key part of the rotation. Ariza is as good a young player as anyone from that last draft not named Ok4 or Dwight Howard and his main offseason aquisition is 24 years old. When this is the pattern why cant people be a little more patient? (Aside from just hating on the GM)

nobody acknowledges the situation we were in before isiah came in. the "blow it up" scenario was not possible here. not until 06/07. yet nobody talks about that. they just say we shouldve "blown it up". what or how that should have been achieved is never explained, just to do it.
newyorknewyork
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1/16/2005  5:18 PM
The way I see it. Marbury(28) has the value of 3 first rd draft picks 1 lottery. Crawford(24) is worth a lottery pick. or 2pick(1 late lottery 1 mid to late first rd). Sweetney(22) is a lottery pick. Ariza(19) has the value of a first rder.

So we have more picks and prospects than we have had in the last yrs. Hehehe
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we are not one step closer to winning anything than when laydumb was here
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