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We argue this and that, but the real problem is lenny........
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TMS
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1/7/2005  3:41 PM
Posted by fishmike:

this is total BS. It shouldnt take more than a year to turn a core roster of Spoon, Frank, Ward, Eisley, Anderson, Ward, Houston, McDyess, KVH, Doleac and Mutumbo into a title contendor. Clearly coaching is to blamed for this lack of turn around.

fish, i think you're misinterpreting people's meaning here...no one is expecting Lenny to have turned this team into an instant title contender in the span of 1 year...what they ARE disappointed about is the lack of effort on defense that is all too often displayed by this team, which has plagued them for so long...

those of us who would like to see a different coach are hoping that someone else could possibly motivate these guys to play harder on a more consistent basis, because we are sick & tired of the laziness & lack of focus that this team displays all too often...they have good talented players on this team, but they just aren't consistent.

it seems that whenever someone criticizes a Knicks coach around here, you take it to mean that we are all expecting instant championship contention...that is far from the case...we just want to see consistent effort night in & night out...i don't think that's too much to ask personally...Lenny hasn't gotten the job done in that respect, & neither did Don Chaney when he was here.
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djsunyc
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1/7/2005  3:45 PM
right. and then after isiah trades for artest and dalembert and we lock people down defensively, would it be despite of lenny?
martin
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1/7/2005  4:02 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by fishmike:

this is total BS. It shouldnt take more than a year to turn a core roster of Spoon, Frank, Ward, Eisley, Anderson, Ward, Houston, McDyess, KVH, Doleac and Mutumbo into a title contendor. Clearly coaching is to blamed for this lack of turn around.

fish, i think you're misinterpreting people's meaning here...no one is expecting Lenny to have turned this team into an instant title contender in the span of 1 year...what they ARE disappointed about is the lack of effort on defense that is all too often displayed by this team, which has plagued them for so long...

those of us who would like to see a different coach are hoping that someone else could possibly motivate these guys to play harder on a more consistent basis, because we are sick & tired of the laziness & lack of focus that this team displays all too often...they have good talented players on this team, but they just aren't consistent.

it seems that whenever someone criticizes a Knicks coach around here, you take it to mean that we are all expecting instant championship contention...that is far from the case...we just want to see consistent effort night in & night out...i don't think that's too much to ask personally...Lenny hasn't gotten the job done in that respect, & neither did Don Chaney when he was here.

I take the opposite approach.

Isn't there onus on the players to up their own energy? We all KNOW the Knicks can play with fire on both ends of the court in spurts. To say that Wilkens is not constantly reminding the players or screaming at the players would be negligent of knowing what is actually happening.

Constantly screaming at the players during the game is not really a good motivational tactic. For all we know Wilkens is doing it before, at halftime and after games. So what? The Knicks are deficient from a personnel perspective, and because of it, they lose games.
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fishmike
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1/7/2005  4:32 PM
Martin I agree 100% (obviosly).

TMS- I think what bugs me is I'm convinced of two things. One is people mistake poor execution on D as a lack of effort. If Nazr is being guarded by Shaq and he shoots 4-12 was he just outplayed or was it lack of effort. This is what I'm talking about. When guys arent executing a defensive scheme and are leaving guys wide open it looks like they just arent trying.
Then there is the actuall effort and sacrifice. Defense is sacrifice because its hard to play full steam on both ends. Rick Carlisle couldnt get Stackhouse to do it. Doc couldnt get TMac to do it. I'm sure there's tons of examples, but the league is full of guys that dont go 100% on D until crunchtime. Thats the NBA. Thats what makes guys like Ben Wallace, Artest, Bowen, Posey, Payton and the other "great" defenders in this league special players. 95% of those guys do it because thats who they are, not because a coach motivated them.
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gunsnewing
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1/7/2005  4:38 PM
how about Isiah taking control of the team and improving the personal and then hiring Phil Jackson to coach the Knicks. I know for sure that with Isiah running the team at least we'll get something out of this season. Sweetney and Ariza would play a lot more since he loves those guys and can afford to let them grow since he's not going anywhere whereas Lenny can be fired any minute. And H20 would play 20min off the bench. My friend had this idea, I thought it was a VERY good one!
playa2
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1/7/2005  4:58 PM
Posted by gunsnewing:

how about Isiah taking control of the team and improving the personal and then hiring Phil Jackson to coach the Knicks. I know for sure that with Isiah running the team at least we'll get something out of this season. Sweetney and Ariza would play a lot more since he loves those guys and can afford to let them grow since he's not going anywhere whereas Lenny can be fired any minute. And H20 would play 20min off the bench. My friend had this idea, I thought it was a VERY good one!

Guns just explained what the knicks fans cry for. Zeke is already telling Lenny to play the young guys at times and dictating other personel moves.

Zeke I believe is still getting paid from the Indiana Pacers and he can't coach until that contract is up or he loses the income from the pacers.


He has already told the media that he doesn't intend on coaching the knicks and I believe the only reason is the $$$$.


JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
Pike
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1/7/2005  5:00 PM
"the real problem isn't Lenny".... it's Playa!!

(just teasing, dog)
TMS
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1/7/2005  5:23 PM
Posted by fishmike:

Martin I agree 100% (obviosly).

TMS- I think what bugs me is I'm convinced of two things. One is people mistake poor execution on D as a lack of effort. If Nazr is being guarded by Shaq and he shoots 4-12 was he just outplayed or was it lack of effort. This is what I'm talking about. When guys arent executing a defensive scheme and are leaving guys wide open it looks like they just arent trying.
Then there is the actuall effort and sacrifice. Defense is sacrifice because its hard to play full steam on both ends. Rick Carlisle couldnt get Stackhouse to do it. Doc couldnt get TMac to do it. I'm sure there's tons of examples, but the league is full of guys that dont go 100% on D until crunchtime. Thats the NBA. Thats what makes guys like Ben Wallace, Artest, Bowen, Posey, Payton and the other "great" defenders in this league special players. 95% of those guys do it because thats who they are, not because a coach motivated them.

all fair points...it's a gray area in my view, & i think we can attribute lack of execution to both the players & the coaches...that's just how i look at things.
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fishmike
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1/7/2005  7:50 PM
totally fair TMS.. this is why I enjoy our dialog

If Isiah significantly upgrades our frontcourt next year, and especially if its with mostly young talent I would give Lenny one year. If he does well great, if not either Isiah should take over or we should get a marquee guy like Phil. My first choice is Larry Brown who should be about done w/ Det in a year or so.
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diderotn
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1/7/2005  9:32 PM
To all of you geniuses who think that Lenny is not to blame, here is a little analogy for you all. After 32 games, has he yet changed the lineup to see whether or not it is a personnel issue or a philosophical issue???? For 32 games he has retained the same lame lineup, especially at the front-court. Marb, Crawf or HOuston, TT, Kurt, and Nazr. Why not tweak the front-court a little? at least for one or two games. Why not bring TT off the bench and play JYD instead? Even when Penny was healthy, Lenny wasn't clever enough to even try using Penny at the SF position. That to me is a sign of a bad coach....
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fishmike
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1/7/2005  10:49 PM
hey genious... has it occured to you the reason he HAS won as many games as he has is because he HASNT changed the lineup?
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djsunyc
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1/7/2005  10:51 PM
Posted by diderotn:

To all of you geniuses who think that Lenny is not to blame, here is a little analogy for you all. After 32 games, has he yet changed the lineup to see whether or not it is a personnel issue or a philosophical issue???? For 32 games he has retained the same lame lineup, especially at the front-court. Marb, Crawf or HOuston, TT, Kurt, and Nazr. Why not tweak the front-court a little? at least for one or two games. Why not bring TT off the bench and play JYD instead? Even when Penny was healthy, Lenny wasn't clever enough to even try using Penny at the SF position. That to me is a sign of a bad coach....

man, the hate for lenny is amazing. you don't like him? fine. you want him fired? fine. but answer some of these questions:

1. would you rather start sweetney? if yes, then what happens to kurt? would you like to keep him or move him? is he still desirable by other teams if he comes off the bench?

2. is 32 games enough to make an accurate assessment of a coach? let me ask you this, is nate mcmillan a good coach? how about johnny davis? how about stan van gundy? if your answer is yes, then you'll know 32 games is not enough.

3. if you fire lenny, do you just go with an assistant as interim? or do you hire somebody else? if so, then who? how far will this new coach take us? if you said 2nd round, then i say, what's the point? why not let lenny coach the entire season and assess him after the season's over. has a midseason coaching change in basketball ever dramatically improved a team? if so, please provide examples.

it's very easy to say a coach sucks when the team is losing. but for 2 years, everybody was saying nate mcmillan sucks. and look at that team now. stan van gundy started off something like 6-20 and look at how they finished up. this roster is flawed. why not fix the roster first then talk about the coach? i'm one of the few that used to defend chaney and wanted to give him a fair shot. but isiah canned him b/c he wanted to get rid of everything layden. that's fine. that's what new gm's do. but he hired lenny and he's going to give him a fair shot. instead of complain complain and complain about lenny, why not sit back and see what happens over the course of the season? each game is like a page in a book. by the end of the season, you finish the book. then you can make a fair assessment of it, right?
diderotn
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1/7/2005  11:23 PM

man, the hate for lenny is amazing. you don't like him? fine. you want him fired? fine. but answer some of these questions:

"1. would you rather start sweetney? if yes, then what happens to kurt? would you like to keep him or move him? is he still desirable by other teams if he comes off the bench"?

Yes. I would move kurt as soon as possible for either a SF or package him along with desired contract for a PF/Center...Sweetney is the future and the time has come for him to get on the court and play. The more we continue to play Kurt is the more we are risking to destroy his value. 32 games is more than enough for teams around the league to notice him.



"2. is 32 games enough to make an accurate assessment of a coach? let me ask you this, is nate mcmillan a good coach? how about johnny davis? how about stan van gundy? if your answer is yes, then you'll know 32 games is not enough."

Yes, 32 games is much more than enoug. You have forgotten that Lenny was brought in during mid-season the year before. He proved that he is a knucklehead and most of all continues to make the same dumb mistakes during games.... He is an old gizzard that will not get better with time....

"3. if you fire lenny, do you just go with an assistant as interim? or do you hire somebody else? if so, then who? how far will this new coach take us? if you said 2nd round, then i say, what's the point? why not let lenny coach the entire season and assess him after the season's over. has a midseason coaching change in basketball ever dramatically improved a team? if so, please provide examples."

Simple, fire Lenny and replace him with an assistant coach, because financially it is the best thing to do. Lenny was given a guarantied contract, we would be obligated to pay him.

I would be fair with Lenny if he showed a desire to change the things that most of us view as the reason why we are losing.. We are lacking defense in our starting lineup. After 32 games, it is very evident that either TT or Kurt has to comeoff the bench. We all know that JYD is our best defender, and we also know that Ariza and Penny can also provide the things that TT has failed to deliver. If we can see it why not Lenny......Please don't tell me about the amound of money that this player is making, because come the end of the season we will be judged by how many games we have won instead of who is making what.
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misterearl
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1/8/2005  8:17 AM
djsunyc - well said homeslice

didertn - speak for yourself

>>I would be fair with Lenny if he showed a desire to change the things that most of us view as the reason why we are losing..

Your ridiculoous approach is a perfect demonstration of why some should NEVER be allowed to play video games. Your points about starting Sweetney totally avoid the dissension it would create. If the coaches prime directive is to foster trust and team work Lenny has done as excellent a job as could be asked.

He must blend twelve huge egos and personallities. He must get them to perform to the best of their abilities but they do NOR compete in a vacuum. Each team has the same objective. Best man usually wins.

The coach cannot shoot, rebound or defend.

The Nate McMillan/ Stan Van Gundy analogy is excellent. You would have both run out of town years ago.

Phil Jackson will never coach the Clippers for a REASON. He understands it takes the best players to win.

You want the Knicks to win?

Have patience until Isiah gets better players.

Screaming "Fire the coach" is any idiots simpleminded means to complain about a complex structure that takes YEARS to build

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TMS
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1/8/2005  4:04 PM
Posted by fishmike:

totally fair TMS.. this is why I enjoy our dialog

If Isiah significantly upgrades our frontcourt next year, and especially if its with mostly young talent I would give Lenny one year. If he does well great, if not either Isiah should take over or we should get a marquee guy like Phil. My first choice is Larry Brown who should be about done w/ Det in a year or so.

either Isiah taking over or if somehow we can steal Larry B away from DET would be my solutions at this point...i agree, the roster is severely flawed, but i do think this team is underachieving at this point...there's just no consistency at all...they look like world beaters 1 game & then totally embarass themselves on national TV the next...it's getting to be predictable at this point, & i can no longer get too excited about a mini 3 game winning streak because you can almost bank on the fact that they'll go out & lose the next few.

they played some very tough teams lately, so i'll give them a pass for losing those games...but it's the WAY that they're losing that's discouraging me...they not only look overmatched from a talent level, but they also are being outplayed by other team's bench players & it just seems like they're being outworked, outhustled & sometimes it seems they're being outnumbered, as if the other team had 6 guys on the floor instead of 5...there always seems to be a man left WIDE open on the floor...

oh well...forgive me because this is coming straight after this embarassing loss to the Cavs...i'm sure things will look up once i see a better performance out of these guys...i know they can play well when they want to...we've all seen it before.

[Edited by - TMS on 01/08/2005 16:05:29]
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diderotn
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1/8/2005  4:44 PM
See, that is the problem with you fairweather fans. Me, I don't just look at one game and criticize Lenny or a particular player for a bad performance. I look at all of the games and based my judgement upon the cohesiveness and the energy vested by the players. Last season, Lenny's dumb ass had Anderson playing a lot of minutes while guys like Demarr and Penny were available to help our team out. As a result we ended losing a bunch of games that we had a great chance at winning. The same story seems to be repeating itself this season. At what point does it fall on the coach????
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martin
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1/8/2005  4:51 PM
Posted by diderotn:

See, that is the problem with you fairweather fans. Me, I don't just look at one game and criticize Lenny or a particular player for a bad performance. I look at all of the games and based my judgement upon the cohesiveness and the energy vested by the players. Last season, Lenny's dumb ass had Anderson playing a lot of minutes while guys like Demarr and Penny were available to help our team out. As a result we ended losing a bunch of games that we had a great chance at winning. The same story seems to be repeating itself this season. At what point does it fall on the coach????

dude, your arguement doesn't even hold. Anderson was going at a 24 minute per game clip and DerMarr and Penny combined 44 minutes per game.

Try again.
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playa2
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1/8/2005  5:15 PM
Anybody ever think that Lenny finally realizes what he got himself into and really is just going to thru the motions and deep inside wants to LEAVE the knicks and understands he will still recieve his salary. As old as he is he AND ALL THE GAMES HE HAS COACHED he doesn't need to be disrespected anymore by some young guns who never won anything.



JAMES DOLAN on Isiah : He's a good friend of mine and of the organization and I will continue to solicit his views. He will always have strong ties to me and the team.
TMS
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1/8/2005  7:42 PM
yo diderotn, you're not calling me a fairweather fan are you? because that would be pretty damn funny coming from a guy who proclaimed Timmie Fugazy Thomas as an untouchable at the beginning of the year & then calling for him to be traded a few weeks later.
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diderotn
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1/8/2005  7:49 PM
Brother! As you can tell, I have always asked to give everyone a chance to show that they don't deserve the position before trading them. I have done the same for TT, Kurt, Lenny, etc. However, I have never asked to allow TT anymore than ten games to prove that he is worthy to keep around. I am a Knickebocker first and a fan of TT second.....


Posted by TMS:

yo diderotn, you're not calling me a fairweather fan are you? because that would be pretty damn funny coming from a guy who proclaimed Timmie Fugazy Thomas as an untouchable at the beginning of the year & then calling for him to be traded a few weeks later.
The true Knickabocker..........
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