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martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Rookie wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:It could be interesting to see if IQ takes the starting SG spot. I mean having a 2nd ballhandler out there who can also create could be beneficial. We don't lose much shooting or defense either. I'm high on Grimes but I want to see some aggressive on offense instead of just always waiting for an open shot.

Really hope we extend IQ. dont want to start the season with IQ playing for a contract, wanting to start...etc...

Grimes was much more engaged and played better with the second unit. The problem is if IQ starts, who is your backup PG and who scores on that unit? Deuce doesn't look like more than a 3rd string PG

IQ was not a true PG. He was a shoot first wing. So do not think we lose much.
If Thibs wanted someone to run an offense like a traditional PG, he would have let Deuce be part of a 10 man rotation.

With Grimes, DDV and Hart in the second unit, there are several options to bring ball up.
Just feel that Grimes has a better chance of developing the things he is missing on the second unit.
(Aggressiveness, shot creation, dribble. Basketball IQ.)

BTW, I don’t know how you can make that statement. Deuce has zero clue on how to make a shot or run an effective NBA team as as a backup PG, like none so far. Maybe he was able to do those things in college but nothing has translated to the NBA except his defense, and that’s one reason you see why IQ play backup PG minutes.

As many of my negative posts about Deuce have demonstrated, the comment was less about Deuce and more about what Thibs needs on the second unit. Which is a creating,.offensive minded, aggressive guard. However, you put Grimes on the second unit, and maybe Deuce getting him the ball has some value.
Although, as you know, my preference would be Grimes in IQs role on second unit with IQ starting. Will give Grimes a chance to work on what he has yet to excel in. And give the first unit another player who can create off the catch. Deuce can play in China in that scenario. Nice kid though.

You just described IQ.

Obvious that is IQ. Which is why I said Thibs has him there. But you are forgetting that there is also a need for that type of player at the starting SG position. We both just agreed IQ is ALREADY that.

Secondly, as mentioned before, also believe that Grimes needs to learn how to be that. And that the best place to do so is in second unit where it will be required of him. Hope is that Grimes on second unit may do what it did for IQ.

Still don't understand the notion this is such a silly idea. Especially since we saw exactly what I'm describing happen so many times last year. But mostly when it really counted. Which was at the end of games. So apparently Thibs also sees the better fit.

A lot of players could be in a better position off the bench to learn stuff. Grimes is one, so is IQ as a PG. Grimes is also learning a lot by starting, like being the prime man defender on the other teams best player; it also helps the team win games, which is also very important.

For instance, we all want Mitch to be a better offensive player. But no one is suggesting he should come off the bench to practice that with the second unit. Because there are pros and cons to doing this.

RJ could come off the bench to practice his shooting and rim drives with finishes against second units. But there are tradeoffs in doing this too.

Mitch, Grimes and RJ could all come off the bench to improve their games. But no way in hell any sound coach does this.

IMHO it's silly to suggest. Mainly, cause it'll never happen for a lot of other really good reasons.

Grimes can learn the things you are asking him by starting too. And he will.

So Grimes should be given the starting nod despite, as you said it, being the player that needs to learn more? Despite IQ being the player that as we both said, is already that?

Absolutely not.

I’ve listed off a myriad of reasons why I think Grimes should and will start over IQ, having both to do with team dynamics and individuals ones, and really none have to do with what you are suggesting there.

You are hyper focused on exactly one aspect regarding both players while continuing to ignore a lot of other good things going on.

If Grimes continues to miss 3pt shots, he will be moved to the second unit. And possibly to another tram. I am for rewarding guys that are already proven to be solid consistent contributors. Right now, IQ has proven that and Grimes is still just a hopeful.

Remind me when and where the “Grimes continues to miss 3pt shots” comes from (he shot better or same as IQ from 3). And then explain to me how what you wrote can’t be said of literally every player in the league? You know, if you only take the most pessimistic and purely hypothetical path for a player. Not for nothing but you just described RJ.

By all accounts, I’d expect a big jump from Grimes this year. And this is just not a novel idea from me, tons of NBA types think the same.

IQ has a great role for himself and the Knicks right now. He was soooooo good in that role, he was voted the second best at it in the league. You want to change that.

Lets phrase that more emphatically for you: you want to take something that has been great for a player and the team and change it up.

One of IQ’s strength is that he is a combo guard and great at team D, that literally fits him and the team at the same time in the role that he has, cause he is more versatile, and that’s a great thing, not a knock.

He is still learning the PG aspect of things and getting better at that, so why not continue that good path for him, off the bench where you have suggested he will get good minutes against the second units (see what I did right there, because if it’s good for the goose… and good for the team)? IQ def deserves starter money, even as 6th man IMO.

What am I ignoring? Grimes is a good young player with potential who is an excellent defender. Imo, not enough when compared to IQ. Who you seem to forget also is a capable defender. Also not ignoring the impact any change would have on second unit. Are you saying Grimes would hurt second unit? He played his best coming off the bench in year one.
And when did I say IQs three is better than Grimes? Did you miss the part I emphasized the need for a SG that can create off the dribble and off the catch? If you are right about Grimes being on the first unit because he brings so much more to winning and not because Thibs needs IQ on the 2nd unit then why is Grimes on the bench so often during crunch time with IQ finishing?

Your point about how good IQ is as a sixth man means what exactly? We should ignore the long list of excellent bench players who graduated to starting roles?

Think you are trying to pigeon hole me into "Grimes is a scrub." More about giving IQ credit for what he brings to the team. Hopefully he gets extended and we don't do the old Knick thing and ignore the guys who have produced for hopefuls. Bird in the hand

I am rooting for Grimes. He and IQ are my favorite players. As I said several times, for me, who starts means absolutely nothing, but if Grimes does not become better at dribble penetration and adds more than a floor spacer, he won't last as a starting SG on this team or any other top team. No matter how good his defense is.

BigDaddyG wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

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Got around to reading this. Rationale is that Hart should be plugged into the starting lineup. While you can make the case that jHart is better right now, it weakens the bench more than it benefits the SL. Hart is a plug anywhere, swiss army knife who is more valuable energizing the bench. It's not like he won't get his minutes anyway, especially now that he's getting a share of the backup PF minutes. I'd also argue that Grimes is a better guard defender and makes it easier to hide JB. Of course, Bleacher report knows better than to ask the real question. How bad of a start does RJ need before we start calling on jHart to replace him?

Hard to argue with plus minus but we saw how teams let JHart shoot in the playoffs.

HofstraBBall wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/KnicksMuse/status/1711831329313075651

Got around to reading this. Rationale is that Hart should be plugged into the starting lineup. While you can make the case that jHart is better right now, it weakens the bench more than it benefits the SL. Hart is a plug anywhere, swiss army knife who is more valuable energizing the bench. It's not like he won't get his minutes anyway, especially now that he's getting a share of the backup PF minutes. I'd also argue that Grimes is a better guard defender and makes it easier to hide JB. Of course, Bleacher report knows better than to ask the real question. How bad of a start does RJ need before we start calling on jHart to replace him?

Hard to argue with plus minus but we saw how teams let JHart shoot in the playoffs.

True. I agree Hart is a better player than Grimes right now. But, the way things stand now, Hart has a lot of responsibilities coming off the bench. Defend the best wing player. Push the pace. Play power forward. I'm not sure that particular swap works for the best. If they said Donte, it would make a little more sense. Also, Hart avg'd as many minutes as Grimes after he got here. It's not like Hart won't get minutes, especially in crunch time. You bring up a good point about Hart's shooting. His TS% with us was insane. He shot 59% from the field and 52% from three. I'd expect that to drop, by a lot. I'd say a 50% fg% and a 36% three point percentage sounds about right.

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Rookie wrote:

nycericanguy wrote:It could be interesting to see if IQ takes the starting SG spot. I mean having a 2nd ballhandler out there who can also create could be beneficial. We don't lose much shooting or defense either. I'm high on Grimes but I want to see some aggressive on offense instead of just always waiting for an open shot.

Really hope we extend IQ. dont want to start the season with IQ playing for a contract, wanting to start...etc...

Grimes was much more engaged and played better with the second unit. The problem is if IQ starts, who is your backup PG and who scores on that unit? Deuce doesn't look like more than a 3rd string PG

IQ was not a true PG. He was a shoot first wing. So do not think we lose much.
If Thibs wanted someone to run an offense like a traditional PG, he would have let Deuce be part of a 10 man rotation.

With Grimes, DDV and Hart in the second unit, there are several options to bring ball up.
Just feel that Grimes has a better chance of developing the things he is missing on the second unit.
(Aggressiveness, shot creation, dribble. Basketball IQ.)

BTW, I don’t know how you can make that statement. Deuce has zero clue on how to make a shot or run an effective NBA team as as a backup PG, like none so far. Maybe he was able to do those things in college but nothing has translated to the NBA except his defense, and that’s one reason you see why IQ play backup PG minutes.

As many of my negative posts about Deuce have demonstrated, the comment was less about Deuce and more about what Thibs needs on the second unit. Which is a creating,.offensive minded, aggressive guard. However, you put Grimes on the second unit, and maybe Deuce getting him the ball has some value.
Although, as you know, my preference would be Grimes in IQs role on second unit with IQ starting. Will give Grimes a chance to work on what he has yet to excel in. And give the first unit another player who can create off the catch. Deuce can play in China in that scenario. Nice kid though.

You just described IQ.

Obvious that is IQ. Which is why I said Thibs has him there. But you are forgetting that there is also a need for that type of player at the starting SG position. We both just agreed IQ is ALREADY that.

Secondly, as mentioned before, also believe that Grimes needs to learn how to be that. And that the best place to do so is in second unit where it will be required of him. Hope is that Grimes on second unit may do what it did for IQ.

Still don't understand the notion this is such a silly idea. Especially since we saw exactly what I'm describing happen so many times last year. But mostly when it really counted. Which was at the end of games. So apparently Thibs also sees the better fit.

A lot of players could be in a better position off the bench to learn stuff. Grimes is one, so is IQ as a PG. Grimes is also learning a lot by starting, like being the prime man defender on the other teams best player; it also helps the team win games, which is also very important.

For instance, we all want Mitch to be a better offensive player. But no one is suggesting he should come off the bench to practice that with the second unit. Because there are pros and cons to doing this.

RJ could come off the bench to practice his shooting and rim drives with finishes against second units. But there are tradeoffs in doing this too.

Mitch, Grimes and RJ could all come off the bench to improve their games. But no way in hell any sound coach does this.

IMHO it's silly to suggest. Mainly, cause it'll never happen for a lot of other really good reasons.

Grimes can learn the things you are asking him by starting too. And he will.

So Grimes should be given the starting nod despite, as you said, being the player that needs to learn more? Despite IQ being the player that as we both said, is already that?

If Grimes continues to miss 3pt shots, he will be moved to the second unit. And possibly to another team. I am for rewarding guys that are already proven to be solid consistent contributors. Right now, IQ has proven that and Grimes is still just a hopeful.

Some good back and forth here —- I’m kind of in the wish IQ would create a bit more for others camp as well and his mentality/ ability would look nice at the 2.

Question for you 2 —- just purely in terms of a finishing 5 - assuming Brunson/Randle/Mitch are set 3.

Would you prefer 1) Brunso/Grimes/Barrett/Randle/Mitch or 2) Brunson/IQ/Grimes/Randle/Mitch ?

Me based on past performance I prefer #2.

I believe in spurts during the game, Thibs will play them together. But for consistency, Grimes has been groomed to build chemistry with our big 3 as the SG. IQ has been groomed to be the knicks starting PG before Brunson came here. And he wants to be a starting PG with or without the knicks. Plus IQ has more room to operate as the main guy off the bench running that second unit, simulating a starting role which helps his trade value if the Knicks go there. And helps IQ land on a team looking for a PG which is his preference.

Now we add another catch and shoot defender in DDV, gives Thibs the flexibility to always have a pure catch and shoot defender on the floor at all times between Grimes and DDV.

But Thibs is not afraid to close with JB and IQ in the back court. That makes since for closing. And really those closing lineups is where we will see all these different guard and small ball lineups.

blkexec wrote:Why IQ is better off the bench for this team than Grimes?
1. Grimes is a classic catch and shoot player who doesn’t need the ball long. Hit or miss, defense has to guard him so he spreads the floor.
2. Grimes has better defensive range. What I mean is he can guard 1-3 which gives Thibs defensive matchup flexibility.
3. IQ is more than a catch and shoot player. He controls the offensive flow. He’s better with ball in his hands. And let him create.
4. This team only has two PGs we trust with the ball (JB and IQ). So need to stagger them at the start, but close with them in the back court.

I believe in spurts during the game, Thibs will play them together. But for consistency, Grimes has been groomed to build chemistry with our big 3 as the SG. IQ has been groomed to be the knicks starting PG before Brunson came here. And he wants to be a starting PG with or without the knicks. Plus IQ has more room to operate as the main guy off the bench running that second unit, simulating a starting role which helps his trade value if the Knicks go there. And helps IQ land on a team looking for a PG which is his preference.

Now we add another catch and shoot defender in DDV, gives Thibs the flexibility to always have a pure catch and shoot defender on the floor at all times between Grimes and DDV.

But Thibs is not afraid to close with JB and IQ in the back court. That makes since for closing. And really those closing lineups is where we will see all these different guard and small ball lineups.

100% spot on

blkexec wrote:Why IQ is better off the bench for this team than Grimes?
1. Grimes is a classic catch and shoot player who doesn’t need the ball long. Hit or miss, defense has to guard him so he spreads the floor.
2. Grimes has better defensive range. What I mean is he can guard 1-3 which gives Thibs defensive matchup flexibility.
3. IQ is more than a catch and shoot player. He controls the offensive flow. He’s better with ball in his hands. And let him create.
4. This team only has two PGs we trust with the ball (JB and IQ). So need to stagger them at the start, but close with them in the back court.

I believe in spurts during the game, Thibs will play them together. But for consistency, Grimes has been groomed to build chemistry with our big 3 as the SG. IQ has been groomed to be the knicks starting PG before Brunson came here. And he wants to be a starting PG with or without the knicks. Plus IQ has more room to operate as the main guy off the bench running that second unit, simulating a starting role which helps his trade value if the Knicks go there. And helps IQ land on a team looking for a PG which is his preference.

Now we add another catch and shoot defender in DDV, gives Thibs the flexibility to always have a pure catch and shoot defender on the floor at all times between Grimes and DDV.

But Thibs is not afraid to close with JB and IQ in the back court. That makes since for closing. And really those closing lineups is where we will see all these different guard and small ball lineups.

Good points. In line with why I mentioned Thins has current setup. Most are focusing on my comments regarding my feeling that I prefer IQ with first unit. As does Thibs on many occasions at the end of games in crunch time. Imo, IQ brings something needed to SG position. Sentiment I feel has also come from FO. Reason the FO has looked to upgrade at SG. However, my point also addresses how Grimes would benefit if asked to be the primary ball handler and scorer on second unit. (As it did for IQ)

But feel like I'm beating a dead horse. You brought up another interesting point. Which I also mentioned as a point of interest. How will DDV affect the minutes of guys like Grimes and IQ. Brings defense and solid three points shooting. Meld of many like Grimes and IQ. He also likes to drive and create for others. Which is the part I like.
I think this is all positives. Thibs seems to hold guys accountable (Except the big three) and plays the hot hands at the end of games. With DDV, Hart, Grimes and IQ, we have a lot of options. My hope is that Thibs uses this for ALL of the starters.

SergioNYK wrote:

Two years later, the Knicks find themselves in an identical position.

They are coming off a surprisingly strong season. There are heightened expectations.

That team fell on its face, failing to reach the postseason in a dismal 37-win campaign.

“I think that experience, especially for me personally and a couple of guys that were here, definitely helps knowing that going into the season we have to come out with that same fight and energy like we did last year,” RJ Barrett said on Wednesday.

“The team was a little different. We had to try to figure things out differently,” Barrett recalled. “It didn’t end up working out. That’s what I’ll say is the difference. This year, we added Donte, but we pretty much have the same guys out there. I think it should be better.”

NBA decisionmakers think the Knicks are contenders.

In the annual general managers poll conducted by NBA.com, the Knicks were picked to finish fifth.

They received 17 percent of the vote for third and 33 percent for fourth.

https://nypost.com/2023/10/11/knicks-vow-they-will-avoid-letdown-after-strong-season/

fishmike wrote:

SergioNYK wrote:

Two years later, the Knicks find themselves in an identical position.

They are coming off a surprisingly strong season. There are heightened expectations.

That team fell on its face, failing to reach the postseason in a dismal 37-win campaign.

“I think that experience, especially for me personally and a couple of guys that were here, definitely helps knowing that going into the season we have to come out with that same fight and energy like we did last year,” RJ Barrett said on Wednesday.

“The team was a little different. We had to try to figure things out differently,” Barrett recalled. “It didn’t end up working out. That’s what I’ll say is the difference. This year, we added Donte, but we pretty much have the same guys out there. I think it should be better.”

NBA decisionmakers think the Knicks are contenders.

In the annual general managers poll conducted by NBA.com, the Knicks were picked to finish fifth.

They received 17 percent of the vote for third and 33 percent for fourth.

https://nypost.com/2023/10/11/knicks-vow-they-will-avoid-letdown-after-strong-season/

Its a 50ish win team. Most execs picking us 4-6 range. Youngest rotation in playoffs last year. I dont get your negativity or what this FO has to do with prior ones.

I agree with you but you do realize that feline aids is the number one killer of domestic cats? Sergio mentioned that earlier.

Think MOST everyone agrees that no matter what our record is, as an organization, the Knicks are in a great position with talent, cap space and amount of trade assets. If we stay healthy, 40 plus is pretty realistic.

Love the DDV addition. Feel he is a great plus/minus guy. Reminds me of when I wanted the Knicks to sign Caruso. He does all the little things good teams need.

He was supposed to provide some outside shooting at 5. Does that show up this year. Could be an important wrinkle for us

a bigger question will be if Grimes slows down and let's the game come to him a bit more. We need his shooting