martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Maybe Hart can push the second unit pace and unlock Toppin a bit, but Toppin is really struggling to make an impact in his current role. That role is clearly more suited for a big wing or 4 that can knock down open 3s. Someone with enough consistency so that the impact is there each game. Watching Georges Niang last night, that guy would be perfect for that role behind Randle. He has shot over 40% from 3pt for 4 seasons in a row, and in utah he was playing in the 14-15 mpg range which is what he would be around here. Wonder if we can grab him for the non-taxpayers mid level this summer. Other options would be drafting Kris Murray (his brother is one of the best 3pt shooters in the league already), or trading For Bogdanović which I’ve discussed how that deal makes sense in other threads. But the Knicks badly need shooting. Hart plugs a ton of holes here but shooting becomes even more important if he’s soaking up 25-30 mpg. A second unit of Quickley, Hart, Barrett, Niang, and Hartenstein would be really tough to stop.

They need shooters in the starting line-up too. It's the biggest weakness on the team. We have very uneven shooting from our wings. Its a big reason we lose so many close games. Frustrating to watch us finally have an elite drive and kick PG only to surround him with masons.

It comes down to Grimes. Brunson is a 40% 3pt shooter. Randle and Barrett are both league average 3pt shooters on high volume. Grimes needs to be a 40% 3pt shooter at some point. If he can do that, we have enough shooting in the starting lineup. But the jury is still out. He’s the 3&D guy though so it’s his job.

No they ain't.

Feel like we must table set what is league average 3pt shooter. League average 3pt% is 36%.

For me, Randle is near average and takes a lot of really difficult 3's.

RJ has always been below average.

Jmpasq wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Obi just doesnt fit in this offense, operating mostly from the corner. The FO needs to put Thibs in a position whete he feels comfortable benching Randle in the 4th, if necessary. Just like he did with RJ. We need a strong 4th quarter finisher at the 4. Starting or off the bench.

The good news is that the FO has the resources to find that player.

Obi does fit the offense when he’s hitting 3’s. He was hot last couple months but has cooled off big time last 2 games.

Its the job description for a player like Novak, not Obi.

So you’re saying you prefer a less dynamic player who can only do one thing like Novak?

No lol, Im saying that if the job description is for a one dimensional player, who spends most of the game in the corner, waiting to shoot the 3. Better to get a more reliable shooter.

Obi being dynamic really doesnt mean much to the team, if he isnt put in the best position to make use of it. Has more to offer than the role he has been given.

I would rather have a player (for this team) who does the one thing really well that we need, than a player who needs more minutes to figure out if there’s anything he does well, if that makes sense. We are beyond this point as a team and don’t have the capability to mold a project like Toppin at this point. It’s not much different than it was with Cam.

SwishFM said it best, that Thibs should try using Obi in the offense , the same way he uses Randle.

Give him more room to operate. I dont consider it a big shift in the game plan.

But Toppin hasn’t shown any ability to be used that way. He hasn’t developed any moves in the post or self creation off the dribble. He needs to show something before being used that way.

I disagree. Last time he was allowed to play that way it was to end the season. He had a 40pt game, and his best stretch as a pro.

Before that when, his rookie year? What would Randle's numbers be like with Obi's role, away from the ball?

Obi has shown he can attack the rim from the top of the key, but he has a different role than Randle. Cant hurt to give him the same role, and see what Obi can do. When he isnt the 4th option.

His best stretch as a pro was late in the season when these types of breakouts tend to happen. You’re not getting much defense from teams at that point. It’s much different than doing it this time of year. Besides the part of the season that equates to garbage time, it’s been few and far between despite a consistent role for 2 1/2 seasons. He didn’t have to earn it like IQ or Grimes. He was placed into a rotation role from day 1 and maintains that role regardless of play. No other PF on the roster.

He couldn't beat out Taj Gibson. I don't think he has earned more playing time. With Hart here now I think he may lose even more time. The team might just play RJ, Grimes, and Hart together

Dont remember Taj Gibson having the same role as Obi. Standing in the corner for most of the game, waiting to knock down a 3. Believe some of you are coming to the hasty conclusion that poor fit on a team, means that they arent any good.

Jmpasq wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Maybe Hart can push the second unit pace and unlock Toppin a bit, but Toppin is really struggling to make an impact in his current role. That role is clearly more suited for a big wing or 4 that can knock down open 3s. Someone with enough consistency so that the impact is there each game. Watching Georges Niang last night, that guy would be perfect for that role behind Randle. He has shot over 40% from 3pt for 4 seasons in a row, and in utah he was playing in the 14-15 mpg range which is what he would be around here. Wonder if we can grab him for the non-taxpayers mid level this summer. Other options would be drafting Kris Murray (his brother is one of the best 3pt shooters in the league already), or trading For Bogdanović which I’ve discussed how that deal makes sense in other threads. But the Knicks badly need shooting. Hart plugs a ton of holes here but shooting becomes even more important if he’s soaking up 25-30 mpg. A second unit of Quickley, Hart, Barrett, Niang, and Hartenstein would be really tough to stop.

They need shooters in the starting line-up too. It's the biggest weakness on the team. We have very uneven shooting from our wings. Its a big reason we lose so many close games. Frustrating to watch us finally have an elite drive and kick PG only to surround him with masons.

It comes down to Grimes. Brunson is a 40% 3pt shooter. Randle and Barrett are both league average 3pt shooters on high volume. Grimes needs to be a 40% 3pt shooter at some point. If he can do that, we have enough shooting in the starting lineup. But the jury is still out. He’s the 3&D guy though so it’s his job.

No they ain't.

Feel like we must table set what is league average 3pt shooter. League average 3pt% is 36%.

For me, Randle is near average and takes a lot of really difficult 3's.

RJ has always been below average.

This year for wings its 36.5%. RJ is a below average shooter. He does not look comfortable shooting.

You guys can break his shooting down by position or months or whatever. That’s fine. I’m just saying he’s been a league average 3pt shooter for his career statistically.

We need Obi to get it going. Think he can or we will need a backup PF. Anybody on waivers?

HofstraBBall wrote:Update. EVERYONE who played last night, except for Obi, did more than stand in the corner and miss threes. .

We need Obi to get it going. Think he can or we will need a backup PF. Anybody on waivers?

I don’t want to pile on Obi but I’ve just gotten really down on him. And a lot of people really feel like he should be playing more than he is. This is the nba. At what level in basketball can you suck but use the excuse that you suck because you’re not playing enough ? It’s backwards. Toppin has been given the red carpet treatment with the Knicks since he was drafted. He has been given a guaranteed role with no 3rd string PF to push for his minutes. Literally the Knicks only roster 2 PFs every year so he has no competition. When he was a rookie we could rely on him being a ball of energy for 11 mins a game and just mix it up. Now what are we getting ? He’s developed into an Okay 3pt shooter which is great, but that’s now all we get. And again the excuses are that he’s being used wrong and he’s not let loose like Thibs has a puppeteer string on him. Nothing is preventing him from being active on both ends of the floor. He should be flying around like Josh Hart, even if his chaos is less organized than Hart. I have always been fine with just resigning Toppin for cheap and keeping him in his role (I created a thread on that awhile back ) because he’s a NYer and has a great relationship with Quickley and I believe in chemistry/ continuity and all of that. But it’s beginning to become obvious that his minutes at PF are becoming a major weak spot in the rotation and need to be address in the offseason. Knicks aren’t a good 3pt shooting team and that’s a place they can shore it up.

Knixkik wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Maybe Hart can push the second unit pace and unlock Toppin a bit, but Toppin is really struggling to make an impact in his current role. That role is clearly more suited for a big wing or 4 that can knock down open 3s. Someone with enough consistency so that the impact is there each game. Watching Georges Niang last night, that guy would be perfect for that role behind Randle. He has shot over 40% from 3pt for 4 seasons in a row, and in utah he was playing in the 14-15 mpg range which is what he would be around here. Wonder if we can grab him for the non-taxpayers mid level this summer. Other options would be drafting Kris Murray (his brother is one of the best 3pt shooters in the league already), or trading For Bogdanović which I’ve discussed how that deal makes sense in other threads. But the Knicks badly need shooting. Hart plugs a ton of holes here but shooting becomes even more important if he’s soaking up 25-30 mpg. A second unit of Quickley, Hart, Barrett, Niang, and Hartenstein would be really tough to stop.

They need shooters in the starting line-up too. It's the biggest weakness on the team. We have very uneven shooting from our wings. Its a big reason we lose so many close games. Frustrating to watch us finally have an elite drive and kick PG only to surround him with masons.

It comes down to Grimes. Brunson is a 40% 3pt shooter. Randle and Barrett are both league average 3pt shooters on high volume. Grimes needs to be a 40% 3pt shooter at some point. If he can do that, we have enough shooting in the starting lineup. But the jury is still out. He’s the 3&D guy though so it’s his job.

Yes, you're correct. I was led to believe Grimes was going to be an elite shooter and that hasn't been the case. Hopefully he takes a big jump next season. You can't stop adding those type of 2 way shooters to the roster. You can never have enough of them. Thats why I was okay trading for Reddish. It didn't work out but it was worth the gamble. As you can see by what people were willing to give up for Mikal, OG, Otto Porter at one time. Those type of players are in very high demand around the league.

martin wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

ccch wrote:Would love to see Hart replace Barrett. What a waste of a # 3 pick. His defense and shooting is below average. I'm getting sick of seeing him go 4 for 14, 2 for 12...etc. I think he's definitely the week link in our starting 5.

You say that, but then Barrett is the reason we beat a team like Miami without Brunson. Just have to deal with the inconsistencies until he develops. He’s 22.

What’s the Mendoza line of age and number of years experience RJ has in terms of expectations of being an average performing offensive a defensive player?

There isn't.

I've seen guys break out in year 6 and 7.

Fact is, Barrett's numbers have improved from 10 feet in, pretty significantly in fact.

Overall there's actually been some progress on the offensive end. .25 to .30 % points in 3 pt shooting (and not being so cold and hot in that order) would do his profile and perception wonders.

Not smart enough to comment on his defense and I'll say he probably is the weak link in the starting (healthy) line-up.

Concerns are legit, and his path will be a slow one if he ever does breakout, but I'm not a fatalist I have no reason to assume he's a finished product.

Sure there is, there is plenty of evidence we can gather using both age and experience and how that plays out in terms of development and what we can, should, or hope expect. I'm hoping you didn't interpret "Mendoza line" as a hard line of sorts, these things probably have some sort of standard deviation to glean from; the odd guy who breaks out later in the process may be an anomaly or just circumstance or something else and not very informative.

Any attempt to do that has to be very comprehensive.

Needs to account for the fact (for example) that many NBA don't don't get a chance to break out in mid 20s.

Barrett will be an anomaly to begin with because of the amount of 22 year olds that will have played the volume has.

Most guys who weren't handed a starting role like was has struggle with efficiency like he has may never reach year 6 or 7 (etc.) TO break out.

Yes, a break out in year 6 or 7 would be unusual, but a mitigating factor is getting an opportunity to break out in year 6 or 7 would also be unusual.

So thumbnailing the premise of Barrett being a late bloomer probably leads you to probably not on our proposed Mendoza line. But my interest in sports IS in fact the unpredictable and unusual (which is actually pretty usual.

Keeping it in town, lot of people who believe the know sports wrote of Daniel Jones, because he was on the wrong side of said mendoza line.

I'm not saying RJ can't break out. I'm looking at his feet and seeing how slow they are and noting he will never move fast enough to be a good defender. I am looking at the fact that RJ is still a very below average shooter (outside of FT's) and noting that shooters of that quality (especially ones who have been working with a specialized shooting trainer, one of the best, for a very long time) rarely make that leap.

Here is the thing about RJ, which for me opens the door to him being a potential anomaly.

He has an unusual 3 pt shooting variance. He can go from terrible for long stretches to very good for equally long stretches. Went a season over .400 from three.

Was terrible in October and November to perfectly fine December and January.

I don't know if that suggests an unfixable mechanical flaw. Suggests to me a potential mental issue. Doesn't seem its easier to fix than mechanical, just suggests to me he can get locked in for sustainable stretches. Strikes me a something to work with, particularly given his age.

What is the context of RJ's improvements? Is he at average yet (because obviously if you go from awful to not too awful, who cares?)? And by those same trends, how long will him to get to average and then above it?

That's a biased premise. Whether he's at average "yet" isn't the point. But anyway.

This season he's shooting careers highs closer to the basket. Legit strides. .633 0-3 feet (previous career high .605) and .383 3 to 10 feet (.318 previous high)

More to the point of my Mendoza line statement: when can we start to realize that 22 going on 23 this summer really is not a heavy factor much more, especially combined with number of years training and experience he has.

We can do that when it's actually proven, rather than just assumed ... would be my answer.

And even then, my first expectation in professional sports is not to be surprised when I'm surprised.

I have no desire or can think of a utility of putting Barrett on either side of a line, even broadly.