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So Thibs only trusts 6 players on this roster
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Rookie
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1/17/2023  5:01 PM
SupremeCommander wrote:
Rookie wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:The ened to call teams and see if they would like to pick three of the following names:
Reddish, Hartenstein, Fournier, Toppin, McBride, Rose, Sims, Mykhailiuk, Arcidiacono, Keels

I would also say we need a legit rotational player, and would entertain taking back 'a bad deal'.

We need to add to legitimate rotation pieaces to truly compete in the playoffs. We're an injury away from being toast.

What's Toppin, Reddish, EF get us?

Absolutely nothing

what if I include a 2nd rounder in 2037?

And 3 Alba posts?
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BigDaddyG
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1/17/2023  6:27 PM
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Knixkik
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1/17/2023  6:42 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/17/2023  6:42 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:

The Eric Gordon trade is what I’m learning towards. Either Fournier and one of those picks, or rose, cam and one of those picks. They don’t have much value other than a move like this to get what will be a helpful 7th man.
BigDaddyG
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1/17/2023  6:55 PM
Knixkik wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:

The Eric Gordon trade is what I’m learning towards. Either Fournier and one of those picks, or rose, cam and one of those picks. They don’t have much value other than a move like this to get what will be a helpful 7th man.

Fournier has value as a salary ballast in trades. It's been mentioned before, but there really isn't any pressure to move as long as he isn't creating any waves in the locker room. I like Gordon, but I'm not giving up any first rounders for him. He's not the key to a title run and he's 34. Plus, he's be kinda redundant with IQ. They really need a combo forward. Two second round picks and I think about it.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Knixkik
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1/18/2023  5:27 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/18/2023  5:28 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:

The Eric Gordon trade is what I’m learning towards. Either Fournier and one of those picks, or rose, cam and one of those picks. They don’t have much value other than a move like this to get what will be a helpful 7th man.

Fournier has value as a salary ballast in trades. It's been mentioned before, but there really isn't any pressure to move as long as he isn't creating any waves in the locker room. I like Gordon, but I'm not giving up any first rounders for him. He's not the key to a title run and he's 34. Plus, he's be kinda redundant with IQ. They really need a combo forward. Two second round picks and I think about it.

Not every move involving a first round pick has to be championship or bust. A guy like Gordon provides relief to the top 6 and can help slightly move the needle. He can be a good example for an incoming rookie wing to help develop. For one of these low upside picks like the Detroit pick it’s well worth it to me. These protected firsts are low upside and not all of them may even convert ever.
BigDaddyG
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1/18/2023  7:32 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/18/2023  7:33 AM
Knixkik wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:

The Eric Gordon trade is what I’m learning towards. Either Fournier and one of those picks, or rose, cam and one of those picks. They don’t have much value other than a move like this to get what will be a helpful 7th man.

Fournier has value as a salary ballast in trades. It's been mentioned before, but there really isn't any pressure to move as long as he isn't creating any waves in the locker room. I like Gordon, but I'm not giving up any first rounders for him. He's not the key to a title run and he's 34. Plus, he's be kinda redundant with IQ. They really need a combo forward. Two second round picks and I think about it.

Not every move involving a first round pick has to be championship or bust. A guy like Gordon provides relief to the top 6 and can help slightly move the needle. He can be a good example for an incoming rookie wing to help develop. For one of these low upside picks like the Detroit pick it’s well worth it to me. These protected firsts are low upside and not all of them may even convert ever.

The Knicks still need to be conservative with their first rounders if the plan is to get a superstar. Gordon is OK now, but he's 34 and close to hitting the wall. He also plays a position that's already occupied by IQ. Not saying he can't contribute this season. But it's not worth burning a first round pick on him unless the team is close to knocking on the door and he's the missing piece. You can sign a free agent if you're worried about having a vet perimeter player to mentor the youth. He's a short term rental and the team has more pressing needs to address. I wouldn't lump the Wizards pick in the same tier as the Hornets pick they used to get Cam. There's a good chance that Wizards pick coney.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
fishmike
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1/18/2023  9:51 AM
Knixkik wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:

The Eric Gordon trade is what I’m learning towards. Either Fournier and one of those picks, or rose, cam and one of those picks. They don’t have much value other than a move like this to get what will be a helpful 7th man.

Fournier has value as a salary ballast in trades. It's been mentioned before, but there really isn't any pressure to move as long as he isn't creating any waves in the locker room. I like Gordon, but I'm not giving up any first rounders for him. He's not the key to a title run and he's 34. Plus, he's be kinda redundant with IQ. They really need a combo forward. Two second round picks and I think about it.

Not every move involving a first round pick has to be championship or bust. A guy like Gordon provides relief to the top 6 and can help slightly move the needle. He can be a good example for an incoming rookie wing to help develop. For one of these low upside picks like the Detroit pick it’s well worth it to me. These protected firsts are low upside and not all of them may even convert ever.

the bold... it should be. There should be no use of FRPs that doesnt include a clear future building block.

Right now IQ/Grimes are wildly important to what we do. Mitch was always acquired with extra draft collateral. Big no for me... No FRPs unless I'm getting back a rotation guy who can be a building block type of guy

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
martin
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1/18/2023  10:32 AM
fishmike wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:

The Eric Gordon trade is what I’m learning towards. Either Fournier and one of those picks, or rose, cam and one of those picks. They don’t have much value other than a move like this to get what will be a helpful 7th man.

Fournier has value as a salary ballast in trades. It's been mentioned before, but there really isn't any pressure to move as long as he isn't creating any waves in the locker room. I like Gordon, but I'm not giving up any first rounders for him. He's not the key to a title run and he's 34. Plus, he's be kinda redundant with IQ. They really need a combo forward. Two second round picks and I think about it.

Not every move involving a first round pick has to be championship or bust. A guy like Gordon provides relief to the top 6 and can help slightly move the needle. He can be a good example for an incoming rookie wing to help develop. For one of these low upside picks like the Detroit pick it’s well worth it to me. These protected firsts are low upside and not all of them may even convert ever.

the bold... it should be. There should be no use of FRPs that doesnt include a clear future building block.

Right now IQ/Grimes are wildly important to what we do. Mitch was always acquired with extra draft collateral. Big no for me... No FRPs unless I'm getting back a rotation guy who can be a building block type of guy

Same.

And to be fair, I do not consider the Detroit pick a low upside pick: https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed

"2023 first round draft pick from Detroit: Detroit's 1st round pick to New York protected for selections 1-18 in 2023, 1-18 in 2024, 1-13 in 2025, 1-11 in 2026 and 1-9 in 2027"

It'll probably most likely to transfer starting in 2025 or later, 26 or 27 would be ideal.

The MAX you are getting out of Gordon is end of this year - 2+ months of work with playoffs - and then next season. He is a shooting guard and will take minutes away from: IQ, Grimes, McBride.

Next question for me is would this FO do this type of trade and that would be an emphatic No. I think the trade value for Gordon is more along the lines of Detroit's 2024 second round pick IMHO.

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fishmike
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1/18/2023  2:16 PM
martin wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:

The Eric Gordon trade is what I’m learning towards. Either Fournier and one of those picks, or rose, cam and one of those picks. They don’t have much value other than a move like this to get what will be a helpful 7th man.

Fournier has value as a salary ballast in trades. It's been mentioned before, but there really isn't any pressure to move as long as he isn't creating any waves in the locker room. I like Gordon, but I'm not giving up any first rounders for him. He's not the key to a title run and he's 34. Plus, he's be kinda redundant with IQ. They really need a combo forward. Two second round picks and I think about it.

Not every move involving a first round pick has to be championship or bust. A guy like Gordon provides relief to the top 6 and can help slightly move the needle. He can be a good example for an incoming rookie wing to help develop. For one of these low upside picks like the Detroit pick it’s well worth it to me. These protected firsts are low upside and not all of them may even convert ever.

the bold... it should be. There should be no use of FRPs that doesnt include a clear future building block.

Right now IQ/Grimes are wildly important to what we do. Mitch was always acquired with extra draft collateral. Big no for me... No FRPs unless I'm getting back a rotation guy who can be a building block type of guy

Same.

And to be fair, I do not consider the Detroit pick a low upside pick: https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed

"2023 first round draft pick from Detroit: Detroit's 1st round pick to New York protected for selections 1-18 in 2023, 1-18 in 2024, 1-13 in 2025, 1-11 in 2026 and 1-9 in 2027"

It'll probably most likely to transfer starting in 2025 or later, 26 or 27 would be ideal.

The MAX you are getting out of Gordon is end of this year - 2+ months of work with playoffs - and then next season. He is a shooting guard and will take minutes away from: IQ, Grimes, McBride.

Next question for me is would this FO do this type of trade and that would be an emphatic No. I think the trade value for Gordon is more along the lines of Detroit's 2024 second round pick IMHO.

exactly... it looks like we have the depth and rotation to be exceed the play-in bracket. If they wanted to bolster their depth with a guy like Crowder or Reggie fine, but not for any future assets. That's what Cam and 2nd rounders are for.

I would not even use McBride as a throw in... I'm fine waiting on him

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
BigDaddyG
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1/18/2023  2:56 PM
I'd kick the tires. He has the potential to be what the Knicks need. I haven't followed Rui slot, but I know his perimeter D is bad. Anyone knows how he is in the post?
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Knixkik
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1/18/2023  4:21 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/18/2023  4:22 PM
fishmike wrote:
martin wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:

The Eric Gordon trade is what I’m learning towards. Either Fournier and one of those picks, or rose, cam and one of those picks. They don’t have much value other than a move like this to get what will be a helpful 7th man.

Fournier has value as a salary ballast in trades. It's been mentioned before, but there really isn't any pressure to move as long as he isn't creating any waves in the locker room. I like Gordon, but I'm not giving up any first rounders for him. He's not the key to a title run and he's 34. Plus, he's be kinda redundant with IQ. They really need a combo forward. Two second round picks and I think about it.

Not every move involving a first round pick has to be championship or bust. A guy like Gordon provides relief to the top 6 and can help slightly move the needle. He can be a good example for an incoming rookie wing to help develop. For one of these low upside picks like the Detroit pick it’s well worth it to me. These protected firsts are low upside and not all of them may even convert ever.

the bold... it should be. There should be no use of FRPs that doesnt include a clear future building block.

Right now IQ/Grimes are wildly important to what we do. Mitch was always acquired with extra draft collateral. Big no for me... No FRPs unless I'm getting back a rotation guy who can be a building block type of guy

Same.

And to be fair, I do not consider the Detroit pick a low upside pick: https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed

"2023 first round draft pick from Detroit: Detroit's 1st round pick to New York protected for selections 1-18 in 2023, 1-18 in 2024, 1-13 in 2025, 1-11 in 2026 and 1-9 in 2027"

It'll probably most likely to transfer starting in 2025 or later, 26 or 27 would be ideal.

The MAX you are getting out of Gordon is end of this year - 2+ months of work with playoffs - and then next season. He is a shooting guard and will take minutes away from: IQ, Grimes, McBride.

Next question for me is would this FO do this type of trade and that would be an emphatic No. I think the trade value for Gordon is more along the lines of Detroit's 2024 second round pick IMHO.

exactly... it looks like we have the depth and rotation to be exceed the play-in bracket. If they wanted to bolster their depth with a guy like Crowder or Reggie fine, but not for any future assets. That's what Cam and 2nd rounders are for.

I would not even use McBride as a throw in... I'm fine waiting on him

You guys are right about the Detroit pick. That’s more favorable than I realized. I thought it was 1-18 for a few years and then switched to 2 2nds. I’m still considering eventually moving the lesser of this year’s picks for a quality vet. We aren’t drafting 2 players plus bringing in Jokubaitis.
VDesai
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1/18/2023  4:55 PM
not really sure why Eric Gordon is better than Fournier. He's old and and undersized wing with bad injury history.
Philc1
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1/18/2023  9:04 PM
The 8 player rotation thing in todays running spacing and pacing nba. No thanks I prefer 9 or 10 man rotation
Panos
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1/18/2023  10:44 PM
In the last 6 games, the Knick bench outside of Quickley has not scored 10 points all together. Our strength last year is our weakness this year:

Points scored outside of starters + IQ:
1/18 - Was - 6 points (L)
1/16 - Tor - 7 points (L)
1/15 - Det - 3 points (W)
1/13 - Was - 8 points (W)
1/11 - Ind - 5 points (W)
1/9 - Mil - 9 points (L)

Previous 4 games
1/6 - Tor - 15 points (W)
1/4 - San - 21 points (W)
1/2 - Pho - 13 points (W)
12/31 - Hou - 16 points (W)
Knixkik
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1/18/2023  10:53 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/18/2023  10:53 PM
VDesai wrote:not really sure why Eric Gordon is better than Fournier. He's old and and undersized wing with bad injury history.

He has actual playmaking ability and will compete defensively.
Knixkik
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1/18/2023  10:55 PM
Panos wrote:In the last 6 games, the Knick bench outside of Quickley has not scored 10 points all together. Our strength last year is our weakness this year:

Points scored outside of starters + IQ:
1/18 - Was - 6 points (L)
1/16 - Tor - 7 points (L)
1/15 - Det - 3 points (W)
1/13 - Was - 8 points (W)
1/11 - Ind - 5 points (W)
1/9 - Mil - 9 points (L)

Previous 4 games
1/6 - Tor - 15 points (W)
1/4 - San - 21 points (W)
1/2 - Pho - 13 points (W)
12/31 - Hou - 16 points (W)

In between his injury, toppin has completely lost confidence it seems. He can’t continue as a non-factor or the Knicks will simply move on from him. And although bullock is the hot name today, the Knicks really miss Burks. That bench of Rose, Quickley and Burks was just so consistent overall scoring. Rose has lost it and Burks is gone. Neither was replaced. Would love to get Burks back. Obviously can’t do it until the offseason though.
Nalod
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1/19/2023  11:13 AM
Knixkik wrote:
Panos wrote:In the last 6 games, the Knick bench outside of Quickley has not scored 10 points all together. Our strength last year is our weakness this year:

Points scored outside of starters + IQ:
1/18 - Was - 6 points (L)
1/16 - Tor - 7 points (L)
1/15 - Det - 3 points (W)
1/13 - Was - 8 points (W)
1/11 - Ind - 5 points (W)
1/9 - Mil - 9 points (L)

Previous 4 games
1/6 - Tor - 15 points (W)
1/4 - San - 21 points (W)
1/2 - Pho - 13 points (W)
12/31 - Hou - 16 points (W)

In between his injury, toppin has completely lost confidence it seems. He can’t continue as a non-factor or the Knicks will simply move on from him. And although bullock is the hot name today, the Knicks really miss Burks. That bench of Rose, Quickley and Burks was just so consistent overall scoring. Rose has lost it and Burks is gone. Neither was replaced. Would love to get Burks back. Obviously can’t do it until the offseason though.

and yet even after 2 losses we sit 7th in the east. The season has been a success thus far warts and all.
The bench and team is cohesive and behind its coach. My thinking is the noise if any is kept in house. Im sure Toppin wants an opportunity to play and if not here, then to a team that will provide that.
IQ if wanted by teams gives us a chip to improve if we don't see him as a starter. McBride is still early to make any calls on and his contract status affords us time. Same with Grimes who lately has hit a wall with his shooting.
Young players are inconsistent and we have a young team.

Bullock has a 50% guarantee for next year.
Kemet
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1/20/2023  12:58 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/20/2023  1:50 AM
Assistant coach Mike Woodson could not stop Randle & Barrett selfish ball handling on offense in 2021 season, so Woodson had Bullock's play help-offense/defense alongside Randle and Barrett in a lineup.
Bullock's role was to catch & pass, plus screen & pick for Randle's Bully-ball & Barrett's slashing through the lane.
Bullock performed the role so well, Dallas Mavs Cuban gave Bullock an offer-sheet the first day of free-agency, to do the same performance alongside KP, Doncic, and Brunson.

Assistant coach Mike Woodson player to player coaching performance had the Knicks playing successfully having a 10 Man (2-unit) rotation throughout the 2021 regular season. The Knicks 10 man (2 unit) rotation (11 players) were successful to become a 4th seed team in the EAST. It also got Tom Thibs the COY award.
The Knicks starter unit were a halfcourt offense of Iso ball (Randle & Barrett), and MitchRob's 4 or more offensive rebounds, having 3 defensive players in Payton Bullock and MitchRob's block party.
The Knicks 2nd unit (ALL) bench lineup was a quick scoring ball-movement uptempo lineup, which was led by veteran D.Rose & Taj Gibson & Burks plus two dynamic rookies Toppin & Quickley.
Assistant coach Mike Woodson quit the Knicks a couple of games before the end of the 2020-21 regular season.
Head coach Tom Thibs had to coach the Knicks vs Hawks playoff series by himself.
As soon as coach Tom Thibs reduced the Knicks 10 man rotation a game into 9 man rotation the Knicks LOSS the next 3 games playing sloppy selfish b.ball.

I was happy with Jalen Brunson 28 to 30 minutes performance he gave each game while a Dallas Mavs.
I'm getting knots in my stomach watching Brunson in a Knicks uniform turn into another selfish Randle & Barrett Clone under Tom Thibs watch.
Quickley has been my favorite young player on the Knicks the past 3 seasons, Quickley's performance used to look to pass to any moving teammate without the ball, feeding the ball to teammates who just got on the court.
That Quickley vanished. After Quickley been in the starter lineup alongside Randle for a few games Quickley performance did a quick 360 turn into selfish shoot first Iso player.

Sims supposed to be MitchRob backup at Center.
Randle minutes need to be reduced so Toppin or Hart get minutes.
Barrett's a 24 minute SF, and Cam Reddish a 24 minute SF too. Both are the same
Quickley's a 28 minute 6th Combo-guard, and Grimes a 22 minute SG
Brunson's a 28 minute PG, and D.Rose is a 22 minute PG
And Mcbride & Fournier & Hartenstein are the 11th/12th/13th player on the roster rotation throughout an 82 game season.
Tom Thibs are leading the Knicks to a 25-30 record .. SAD
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1/20/2023  6:34 AM
martin wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
martin wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Nalod wrote:In the hindsight thing, moving up for Duarte would have been a mistake.
Maybe we do a Toppin for Duarte trade as the need is there.
Is it that Thibs don’t trust some guys, or have some guys not earned that trust?

Toppin for Duarte has been a commonly mentioned possibility, but we would be trading one rotation player for another which doesn’t solve the problem. An expanded idea would be Toppin and reddish for Duarte and Daniel Theis. Theis hasn’t played yet this year but is close. But he’s a guy who I can envision perfectly suited for a 12-14 mpg energy role behind Randle, plus being a defensive guy thibs can trust. And Duarte has been erratic this year but offers enough on both sides of the ball to play 20 mpg. IQ, Duarte, Theis (who can play both frontcourt positions defensively) and Hart, with Deuce as the 10th man for defensive purposes is a bench rotation I can buy. The question would be is if Indiana is willing to help us. They would have to drop out pretty well over the next couple weeks.

Daniel Theis hasn't played this season, out indefinitely with knee surgery. Also has 2 years beyond this one for contract.

That’s how desperate we are for playable players.

No it's just a lack of a good idea and fit. Obi just gotta play better

Maybe Obi isn't that good. He moves without the ball well and runs the floor. What else does he do well? Can he shoot? Not really. Is he a good passer? No again. Ball handling?.... Shot creation?..... He isn't a skilled basketball player. I get it, he was a Knick fan growing up so everyone on here loves him. That doesn't win basketball games. I always see "We need to run plays for him". Everyone in the NBA can score 20 if you are drawing up plays for them. What can he do to create offense? Why does he deserve to be the focal point of the team offensively when his true shooting this season is 51.9%?

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GustavBahler
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1/20/2023  6:46 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
martin wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
martin wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
Nalod wrote:In the hindsight thing, moving up for Duarte would have been a mistake.
Maybe we do a Toppin for Duarte trade as the need is there.
Is it that Thibs don’t trust some guys, or have some guys not earned that trust?

Toppin for Duarte has been a commonly mentioned possibility, but we would be trading one rotation player for another which doesn’t solve the problem. An expanded idea would be Toppin and reddish for Duarte and Daniel Theis. Theis hasn’t played yet this year but is close. But he’s a guy who I can envision perfectly suited for a 12-14 mpg energy role behind Randle, plus being a defensive guy thibs can trust. And Duarte has been erratic this year but offers enough on both sides of the ball to play 20 mpg. IQ, Duarte, Theis (who can play both frontcourt positions defensively) and Hart, with Deuce as the 10th man for defensive purposes is a bench rotation I can buy. The question would be is if Indiana is willing to help us. They would have to drop out pretty well over the next couple weeks.

Daniel Theis hasn't played this season, out indefinitely with knee surgery. Also has 2 years beyond this one for contract.

That’s how desperate we are for playable players.

No it's just a lack of a good idea and fit. Obi just gotta play better

Maybe Obi isn't that good. He moves without the ball well and runs the floor. What else does he do well? Can he shoot? Not really. Is he a good passer? No again. Ball handling?.... Shot creation?..... He isn't a skilled basketball player. I get it, he was a Knick fan growing up so everyone on here loves him. That doesn't win basketball games. I always see "We need to run plays for him". Everyone in the NBA can score 20 if you are drawing up plays for them. What can he do to create offense? Why does he deserve to be the focal point of the team offensively when his true shooting this season is 51.9%?

Dont know if you watched this game. Yes, it was late in the season. Yes, a lot of points off of alley oops.

Yet there are also points scored from Obi creating his own shot. Look at the level of difficulty of some of those drives. They were from near the center of the arc, Obi wasnt operating from the corner like he usually does. Looks better when he isnt stuck in the corner for most of the game.
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So Thibs only trusts 6 players on this roster
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