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[Game Thread] Knicks @ Cavs 6PM 10/30/22
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EwingsGlass
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10/30/2022  8:30 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:This is a game where we really could have used Grimes D on Mitchell.

Another fan placing unrealistic expectations on a Knick player

Grimes is one of the best on the ball defenders in the league. Nothing "unrealistic" about that.

What do you use to prove that point?

You know I gonna spin wit it
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BigRedDog
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10/30/2022  8:30 PM
Can't blame the refs. Knicks are a flawed team. Reddish throws up garbage shots, Toppins defense sucks, Randle is a cancer, hustles when he wants to and his defense sucks. Barrett is limited athletically, bad shooter. Most of the team has a low basketball IQ. Fournier is a one dimension player, awful defense. The team definitely needs Grimes to replace Fournier. We are so far behind the top teams in the league.
fishmike 9/27/2024 11:00 PM Ug I hate this. The idea of Towns is great until you see what a pussy he is. Jules is a dog. DD was a flamethrower locked up cheap for 3 more years. First Leon move I hate
GustavBahler
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10/30/2022  8:31 PM
Eye test. Grimes stays in front of his man at an elite level. When he isnt hurt.

EwingsGlass wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:This is a game where we really could have used Grimes D on Mitchell.

Another fan placing unrealistic expectations on a Knick player

Grimes is one of the best on the ball defenders in the league. Nothing "unrealistic" about that.

What do you use to prove that point?
Sambakick
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10/30/2022  8:32 PM
BigRedDog wrote:Can't blame the refs. Knicks are a flawed team. Reddish throws up garbage shots, Toppins defense sucks, Randle is a cancer, hustles when he wants to and his defense sucks. Barrett is limited athletically, bad shooter. Most of the team has a low basketball IQ. Fournier is a one dimension player, awful defense. The team definitely needs Grimes to replace Fournier. We are so far behind the top teams in the league.

He's not wrong.

Everything in moderation. Even moderation.
Philc1
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10/30/2022  8:34 PM
franco12 wrote:
Philc1 wrote:
Sambakick wrote:Giants and Knicks season outlook taking a downturn today.

We are a middle of the pack team.

Both the Giants and Jets are hardly as good as their record.

The Knicks are maybe a 500 team at the end of the season.

The first game, the lost in Memphis, really for me said what our season is going to be. A really gutsy group that lacks star power that will fade when the best player on the court, usually the opponent, decides to take over and determine the game.

Isn’t that what we habe been the past 3 years?
GustavBahler
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10/30/2022  8:40 PM
We need a big like Rolo who can box out in the paint. Maybe help Mitch, too often he's out of postition, pratically behind the backboard.
fitzfarm
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10/30/2022  8:42 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/30/2022  8:44 PM
Sambakick wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:Can't blame the refs. Knicks are a flawed team. Reddish throws up garbage shots, Toppins defense sucks, Randle is a cancer, hustles when he wants to and his defense sucks. Barrett is limited athletically, bad shooter. Most of the team has a low basketball IQ. Fournier is a one dimension player, awful defense. The team definitely needs Grimes to replace Fournier. We are so far behind the top teams in the league.

He's not wrong.

I just can’t believe how people can justify how the refs completely took control of the game when we went up by 9, calling every touch on us, and letting them play super physical, to take over the game.


I agree we aren’t perfect but we clearly have more talent than the Cavs, hence why we were about to take over the game up 9 then the refs stepped in for the Cavs. Yeah they have Mitchell, but Randle was killing Mobley he could get whatever he wanted vs him and the refs let the cave basically hand check us to hold us down… watch the replay of the game esp when we go up by 9, see how the refs hooked them up for the win. It’s subtle but in the NBA most teams that’s all you need to take advantage.


I hate saying this but look at the spread and see how the game ended ? Refs got the spread covered. Someone is getting payed
Clean
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10/30/2022  8:44 PM
Thibs has been doing a much better job this season but until he has us actually using scouting reports and he adjusts to the problems presented in every specific game we will get no where. You playing against a player who can't shoot? The primary defender will still play like he is Reggie Miller. You got a scrub driving to the hoop? We will help the defender and rather give the other team an open 3. Will we change what we do if the other team has shown all game they will hit open 3's? Hell no. We will pack that paint all game long. That defensive scheme was good back in the day but too many players can hit 3's today. You got to have a counter or alternative.
Philc1
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10/30/2022  8:50 PM
fitzfarm wrote:
Sambakick wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:Can't blame the refs. Knicks are a flawed team. Reddish throws up garbage shots, Toppins defense sucks, Randle is a cancer, hustles when he wants to and his defense sucks. Barrett is limited athletically, bad shooter. Most of the team has a low basketball IQ. Fournier is a one dimension player, awful defense. The team definitely needs Grimes to replace Fournier. We are so far behind the top teams in the league.

He's not wrong.

I just can’t believe how people can justify how the refs completely took control of the game when we went up by 9, calling every touch on us, and letting them play super physical, to take over the game.


I agree we aren’t perfect but we clearly have more talent than the Cavs, hence why we were about to take over the game up 9 then the refs stepped in for the Cavs. Yeah they have Mitchell, but Randle was killing Mobley he could get whatever he wanted vs him and the refs let the cave basically hand check us to hold us down… watch the replay of the game esp when we go up by 9, see how the refs hooked them up for the win. It’s subtle but in the NBA most teams that’s all you need to take advantage.


I hate saying this but look at the spread and see how the game ended ? Refs got the spread covered. Someone is getting payed

NBA refs are as crooked as a barrel of snakes. The Knicks have been getting hosed for years. RJ and Randle get hacked every night and no call
Kemet
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10/30/2022  8:53 PM
Keven Love off the bench last season were a big part of why the Cavs perform as an above .500 team.
Now the Cavs added Donovan Mitchell in their scheme of winning games in the regular season.

Did the Donovan Mitchell Cavs beat the Knicks 121 - 108 ???
The Knicks had a 9 pt lead to start the 4th quarter
Plus the Cavs all-star player Garland was in street cloth on the bench
How? How? How?

The Knicks 4th quarter defense did not show up for 12 min allowing the Cavs to score 37 points, while the Knicks scored 15 pts in the final quarter.
I guess that's what they mean by "the Cavs team wanted the WIN more than the Knicks" !!!
Panos
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10/30/2022  9:01 PM
When the opposing team gets hot, the Knicks have no stabilizing factor on the court, and they seem unable to do anything. Can't play D, can't box out or get a defensive rebound. It's super ugly to watch. THey look like a G league team.
fitzfarm
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10/30/2022  9:04 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/30/2022  9:06 PM
Kemet wrote:Keven Love off the bench last season were a big part of why the Cavs perform as an above .500 team.
Now the Cavs added Donovan Mitchell in their scheme of winning games in the regular season.

Did the Donovan Mitchell Cavs beat the Knicks 121 - 108 ???
The Knicks had a 9 pt lead to start the 4th quarter
Plus the Cavs all-star player Garland was in street cloth on the bench
How? How? How?

The Knicks 4th quarter defense did not show up for 12 min allowing the Cavs to score 37 points, while the Knicks scored 15 pts in the final quarter.
I guess that's what they mean by "the Cavs team wanted the WIN more than the Knicks" !!!

You just answered the question how the F uck did the Cavs score 37 to the Knicks 15 ? First of the Cavs defense isn’t that good, refs covered the spread and they let them play hack a Knick while we couldn’t match the intensity on our end without the whistle being blown. Love and D mitch have always been knick killers, but it doesn’t excuse the refs for controlling the outcome by being one sided on defense to get them back in the game.all the while conveniently covering the spread.37 to 15 after we took over the game lol that’s criminal
martin
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10/30/2022  9:45 PM
BigRedDog wrote:Can't blame the refs. Knicks are a flawed team. Reddish throws up garbage shots, Toppins defense sucks, Randle is a cancer, hustles when he wants to and his defense sucks. Barrett is limited athletically, bad shooter. Most of the team has a low basketball IQ. Fournier is a one dimension player, awful defense. The team definitely needs Grimes to replace Fournier. We are so far behind the top teams in the league.

Agree with all of this. Add in Mitch poor play against solid competition too.

This game really shows us why Toppin and Cam are fair from deserving of more time on court with their play.

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Uptown
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10/30/2022  9:57 PM
Clean wrote:Thibs has been doing a much better job this season but until he has us actually using scouting reports and he adjusts to the problems presented in every specific game we will get no where. You playing against a player who can't shoot? The primary defender will still play like he is Reggie Miller. You got a scrub driving to the hoop? We will help the defender and rather give the other team an open 3. Will we change what we do if the other team has shown all game they will hit open 3's? Hell no. We will pack that paint all game long. That defensive scheme was good back in the day but too many players can hit 3's today. You got to have a counter or alternative.

Yeah...Thibs defensive philosophy is to protect the paint first. Multiple defenders converge into the paint when the offensive player gets by his defenders; even weak-side defenders will overcommit, sometimes getting two feet in the paint. As you pointed out, this is risky especially against teams that can space the floor with multiple shooters. A drive and kick will leave us scrambling...A drive and kick and a second pass against our defense and teams will get wide open looks.

The other thing that hurts us is not having a solid point of attack defender. Teams are getting paint touches with ease, and we constantly scrambling to find shooters...
Clean
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10/30/2022  10:16 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/30/2022  10:43 PM

We setting records with how bad our 3pt defense is.

I would also like to remind people when Thibs won coach of the year the Knicks had the best 3pt percentage in the league on opponents open 3's. That stat sounds like its a good defensive stat. It just means you got lucky that teams missed more open 3's against your team than other teams.
franco12
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10/30/2022  10:22 PM
Clean wrote:
We setting records with how bad our 3pt defense is.

I would also like to remind people when Thibs won coach of the year the Knicks had the best 3pt percentage in the league on opponents open 3's. That stat sounds like its a good defensive stat. It just means you got lucky that teams missed more open 3's against your team than other teams.

I remember reading about that stat from that year- and I think if I recall is we weren't especially close to the shooter- we did just get lucky.

Bottom line, we need to get better at our perimeter defense or this will be a long season.
BigDaddyG
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10/30/2022  11:14 PM
There good games followed 3 bad games. New season, same ole Randle. At least RJ got his stroke back. Cavs are a better team, so this loss doesn't hurt as much. Just got to hope for incremental improvements over this stretch.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
jskinny35
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10/31/2022  1:45 AM
Panos wrote:When the opposing team gets hot, the Knicks have no stabilizing factor on the court, and they seem unable to do anything. Can't play D, can't box out or get a defensive rebound. It's super ugly to watch. THey look like a G league team.

I think this is an underrated point - we fall apart at the seams very quickly. Thibs often calls timeout and regroups the team - but we lack mental fortitude when teams go on a run/hit 3s and we rattle too easily. That's partly Thibs responsibility but also the players own deficiencies. Brunson will help in this area but he can't do it alone.
jskinny35
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10/31/2022  2:06 AM
I also think this lineup just doesn't seem balanced. I know it's still early in the season but I think the problems that we hoped Brunson would fix still remain because they were problems that existed before and may be unfixable. I have been tough on Randle but so far this season I do see him trying harder to remain focused, give a better defensive effort and not escalate when things go south. That said the problems remain with him and RJ coexisting with limited outside shooting around them. RJ has struggled much of this season as Brunson adjusts to the offense. I've said for a few years now that RJ and Randle coexisting offensively seems to stunt each other's growth and suspect it will continue (even when RJ comes around and starts to play better).

So what can we do? Grimes will eventually return and is certainly worth looking at for replacing Fournier. I wonder if until then - it's worth it to try Toppin at the 3 position to see if he can be more effective since Fournier doesn't seem to be a long-term consideration and is so poor defensively that I'm wondering if Toppin would really be worse.

Potential Benefits are...
RJ could return to the SG position (and hopefully with shoot well) so we get a little better defensively in backcourt. This may help Brunson and RJ play to their strengths better.

Toppin's poor rebounding isn't as negatively impacting in the SF slot and he leaks out much of the time anyway.

Toppin doesn't need the ball (won't take away from Brunson, RJ, Randle iso), plays at a faster pace and (if focused) has the athleticism to guard SFs.

RJ at 6'6" and limited athletically compared to an athletic/fast Obi at 6'8" may force opposing SF's to have to work harder on the defense end.

We're getting lousy production from the combo of Fournier and RJ at the SG and SF positions

We can finally put to rest if Toppin deserves a greater role on this team and since it's always been Obi vs Randle - maybe this debate finally ends

Definitely understand the concerns about the defensive pairing of Obi/Randle but maybe the benefits outweigh the negative/concerns and we at least play faster with more ball movement... until Grimes returns at least? Brunson is doing his job and while I'm sure RJ will pick it up soon - we're still a middle of the pack team (at best) with the current team dynamic we have going on... so why not change it up?

Thoughts?
Philc1
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10/31/2022  7:03 AM
Clean wrote:
We setting records with how bad our 3pt defense is.

I would also like to remind people when Thibs won coach of the year the Knicks had the best 3pt percentage in the league on opponents open 3's. That stat sounds like its a good defensive stat. It just means you got lucky that teams missed more open 3's against your team than other teams.

Fournier is killing our 3pt defense right now. I’m not a Bullock guy but I will give him this he could close out on players trying to shoot an open 3 better than EF but then again so could anyone
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