foosballnick wrote:jskinny35 wrote:gradyandrew wrote:jskinny35 wrote:martin wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:TheGame wrote:If Charlotte gave us a protected 1st round pick too with Heyward, I would do the trade. I have lost all confidence in Randle. He is too turnover prone and just does not seem to be able to handle the pressure of playing in NY. Trade him, move Heyward to the bench and start Obi. Well plus we get another 1st round pick.
I'm down for this. I don't think Charlotte gives up first rounder though.
They ASK for a 1st rounder
You think they would take one of those protected first rounders we just landed at the draft? Hate to give up one of our 1st rounders despite my desire to relocate Randle asap.
What's the downside risk of waiting until the trade deadline to do a deal like this?
The downside could be several things...
Worst Case
Randle implodes during the season and he becomes completely untradeable (last season's behaviors suggest this is possible). We are now stuck with 4 years of a player and end up having to buy him out. We have also wasted another season despite knowing the unlikely probability that Randle would "turn it around" after the previous 2 out of 3 seasons of poor play.
Likely Case
Randle doesn't implode but plays poorly - this negatively impacts team performance and his trade value. In the meantime - we still only have 12 minutes for Obi and our young players that like to push the pace are frustrated. Tension and playing time come to a head with young players - some are moved unnecessarily.
Possible Case
Randle plays decently but with continued ball dominant/ISO style of play and slow pacing - as a result we underachieve and since we can't trade Randle we end up trading young players to compensate for Thibs "win now" approach.
Best Case
Randle matures overnight (despite past), commits to D'Antoni's "7 Seconds or Less" offensive style, and improves both shot selection, efficiency and defensive consistency. As a result we overachieve and hope the maturity and consistency remain for the next 3 seasons.
I think in terms of probability and just don't see many likely scenarios where Randle being here the next 4 seasons will serve the best interest of the team. He's not new to the NBA and it's very hard to change patterns/habits you've worked on your entire life. This is not asking him to develop and outside shot as he gets older. Asking him to defer, change his shot selection, not pout when things don't go his way, not hold the ball, etc... it's a lot to ask of any player IMO.
So I think realizing that we have other options and making a lateral move is the way to go asap.
Maybe a different question would be - what's really the risk if we moved Randle immediately?
Randle hasn't show leadership skills that are invaluable - we have RJ and Brunson who we want to handle the ball more anyway
We play at the slowest pace despite having some decent athletically talented young players
Adding Brunson and allowing RJ more touches can minimize (or possibly) replace the lost points and increase ball movement
We can finally see if Obi is a role player or more. We could offer Cam spot minutes at the 4 as well. Hart/Sims could offer minutes
If I'm wrong and we completely regress we will have played/developed the young players and obtain a much better draft pick in a good one
You're "Possible Case" really should be marked as the "Likely Case". At a minimum - Randle has always played "Decently" and 2 years ago he played at a very high level. NY Fans are on his case mainly due to expectations. They put him on a pedestal and expect him to be the Shining example of a Leader and when that does not happen - obsessively pick on his flaws. It has happened to almost every Knick player who was traded for or signed to be the "Guy". Knick fans obsessively watch every possession, every facial expression, even study body language to fuel their views that a player like Randle needs to be shipped out. Fact is that Randle is a "B" level player, and paid as a B level player....on a team that has been devoid of any "A" level talent. Randle is a rugged player who is pretty much always available and plays with a chip on his shoulder. Pair Randle with Curry, Ja, Doncic, Young.....how's he looking then? As many do here, I love Obi for his energy and effort. But he is still pretty much an unknown.
I see many here who want to dump Randle purely for Yoots. Do you don't dump Randle for a bag of beans in order to make room for a pretty much unknown factor? Let's draw a comparison. If the Atlanta Hawks gave away John Collins for nothing to make room and start Jalen Johnson would that be a sound Front Office move?
I'm not trying to knock Randle's abilities and I respect he works hard and comes to camp in good shape. I feel his play style is somewhat outdated for the current NBA as he's not efficient enough to hold the ball too long. I never saw him as an A level player - even in his stellar season the warts were there (as was my criticism and suggestions to sell high).
So now the hope is he can take a step back and defer to a younger but solid PG (Brunson) and allow RJ to take another step forward. I seriously doubt he will do this and even when he was at his best - he is simply a very good player that won't maximize his ceiling with this roster. Put him on a Denver, SA, GS, Dallas, Miami, etc and he would look terrific because the structure is in place and he would defer. It's one thing to ask a player to squash his own alpha mentality to allow others to succeed for the betterment of the team - it's another to additionally ask him to change his style of play. RJ, IQ, Toppin, Mitch and some of the other young players seem best suited to an uptempo style of play. We need energy - that's why I'm ok with swapping Obi for Randle and taking the lumps. Randle is clearly more talented but sometimes the team needs other things more then scoring - chemistry, tempo and ball movement.
And when you say pair Randle with Ja, Doncic, etc - I agree he would perform better there and we should look to find a deal for both sides. If Randle didn't have 4 years left I'd be more patient. The fact that he has such low trade value should be more concerning vs trying to spend this season pumping it back up to an acceptable level to trade him.
Re: the Hawks - if Jalen Johnson helped the team win more it would make sense to me. I think John Collins is a solid player but they've had 3 seasons to see how much he impacts winning and it doesn't seem like he does on Atl very much. That said -I'd consider swapping Collins for Randle so we could play more uptempo and often it's more about fit. Then again I don't think Atl would take that trade and that says a lot to me.
