Philc1 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Philc1 wrote:There’s only 2 paths:

A) Randle plays better next season, Knicks overall are better and get the 8th or 9th seed

B) Randle continues to be a ball stopper on offense, Knicks win less games next year, he gets Thibs fired after demanding a trade and eventually just getting a buyout

So your thought is that the Knicks are potentially going to opt to have $28m per year dead cap hit on a guy 20/10/5 guy who is under 30.

They’ve done it before why not again

So every situation is the same then?

Noah was 32 with career already on significant down-trend and who only played ~22 minutes per game at 7 pts /6 rebounds / 2 assists. He had one year left ~$19M (and people complain about EF's contract!!) which was stretched over 3 years at $6+M per year dead cap hit.

Randle is still in his prime at 35+ minutes (20/10/5) and if stretched after the upcoming season would be at $107M - which would mean dead cap space of $15+M per season over 7 years.

Perhaps some Knicks fans need to learn to separate prudent basketball business decisions from their own butthurt views based on a sometimes overly emotional and frustrated player giving them the finger.

foosballnick wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Philc1 wrote:There’s only 2 paths:

A) Randle plays better next season, Knicks overall are better and get the 8th or 9th seed

B) Randle continues to be a ball stopper on offense, Knicks win less games next year, he gets Thibs fired after demanding a trade and eventually just getting a buyout

So your thought is that the Knicks are potentially going to opt to have $28m per year dead cap hit on a guy 20/10/5 guy who is under 30.

They’ve done it before why not again

So every situation is the same then?

Noah was 32 with career already on significant down-trend and who only played ~22 minutes per game at 7 pts /6 rebounds / 2 assists. He had one year left ~$19M (and people complain about EF's contract!!) which was stretched over 3 years at $6+M per year dead cap hit.

Randle is still in his prime at 35+ minutes (20/10/5) and if stretched after the upcoming season would be at $107M - which would mean dead cap space of $15+M per season over 7 years.

Perhaps some Knicks fans need to learn to separate prudent basketball business decisions from their own butthurt views based on a sometimes overly emotional and frustrated player giving them the finger.

That was very generous of you to provide. Im at the point of just slinging insults as his absorbing information seems daft.

Philc1 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Philc1 wrote:There’s only 2 paths:

A) Randle plays better next season, Knicks overall are better and get the 8th or 9th seed

B) Randle continues to be a ball stopper on offense, Knicks win less games next year, he gets Thibs fired after demanding a trade and eventually just getting a buyout

So your thought is that the Knicks are potentially going to opt to have $28m per year dead cap hit on a guy 20/10/5 guy who is under 30.

They’ve done it before why not again

So every situation is the same then?

Noah was 32 with career already on significant down-trend and who only played ~22 minutes per game at 7 pts /6 rebounds / 2 assists. He had one year left ~$19M (and people complain about EF's contract!!) which was stretched over 3 years at $6+M per year dead cap hit.

Randle is still in his prime at 35+ minutes (20/10/5) and if stretched after the upcoming season would be at $107M - which would mean dead cap space of $15+M per season over 7 years.

Perhaps some Knicks fans need to learn to separate prudent basketball business decisions from their own butthurt views based on a sometimes overly emotional and frustrated player giving them the finger.

Got a bad feeling the Randle contract next year starts to make the Noah contract look like a cake walk

If we let Mitch walk, don’t fix pg and are stuck with Randle trying to be a point forward in half court for 82 games next season could get very ugly early

Noah physically broke down and did not improve nor did he work on his craft much. Randle has a work ethic and track record that showed a very high end year to year improvement. Last year might have been more between the ears. Something that is hard for you to relate to as you redundantly demonstrate.
Randle at 27 with the exception of his rookie has shown durability.
He can dial back his 20-10 and still be a great contract if he can change his **** face attitude.
Thibs is very much part of how he is used. Much of this falls on him also.
As for Mitch you make it out like the center of 37 win team is the key to our success and like no player every walks away from a team uncompensated.
Last year about every reasonable FA was sign and trade. we don’t get full value in return, but thats par for the course.

SergioNYK wrote:Randle's 20/5/10 are such empty stats when you factor in his lapses in effort defensively, the constant crying to the refs and the drama off the court. Bet you Obi or someone else putting up 'lesser' stats of like 15/3/7 would impact winning a lot more. Don't be fooled or sucked into Randles stats.

We should not be fooled by empty stats? He has been producing since his first year in the league. He got us to the playoffs? That is pretty relevant data? You want to erase that and focus instead on se disappointed fan narrative? Fact is consistent production absolutely matters.

Agree that Randle was frustrated last year and had things going on off the court. But get rid of our best player? Why not realize and focus and other key issues:

1) He had NO starting PG after first part of season.
2) We lost our second unit PG and closer.
3) RJs slow start and injury
4) IQ's slow start.
5) Kemba not fitting in.
6) We had 2 new starter who never played with other three.

Think these had some affect. But let's blame "off court dram" from a guy that still put up numbers.

foosballnick wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Philc1 wrote:There’s only 2 paths:

A) Randle plays better next season, Knicks overall are better and get the 8th or 9th seed

B) Randle continues to be a ball stopper on offense, Knicks win less games next year, he gets Thibs fired after demanding a trade and eventually just getting a buyout

So your thought is that the Knicks are potentially going to opt to have $28m per year dead cap hit on a guy 20/10/5 guy who is under 30.

They’ve done it before why not again

So every situation is the same then?

Noah was 32 with career already on significant down-trend and who only played ~22 minutes per game at 7 pts /6 rebounds / 2 assists. He had one year left ~$19M (and people complain about EF's contract!!) which was stretched over 3 years at $6+M per year dead cap hit.

Randle is still in his prime at 35+ minutes (20/10/5) and if stretched after the upcoming season would be at $107M - which would mean dead cap space of $15+M per season over 7 years.

Perhaps some Knicks fans need to learn to separate prudent basketball business decisions from their own butthurt views based on a sometimes overly emotional and frustrated player giving them the finger.

Got a bad feeling the Randle contract next year starts to make the Noah contract look like a cake walk

If we let Mitch walk, don’t fix pg and are stuck with Randle trying to be a point forward in half court for 82 games next season could get very ugly early

Noah physically broke down and did not improve nor did he work on his craft much. Randle has a work ethic and track record that showed a very high end year to year improvement. Last year might have been more between the ears. Something that is hard for you to relate to as you redundantly demonstrate.
Randle at 27 with the exception of his rookie has shown durability.
He can dial back his 20-10 and still be a great contract if he can change his **** face attitude.
Thibs is very much part of how he is used. Much of this falls on him also.
As for Mitch you make it out like the center of 37 win team is the key to our success and like no player every walks away from a team uncompensated.
Last year about every reasonable FA was sign and trade. we don’t get full value in return, but thats par for the course.

You fell victim to it as well - LOL. It really is difficult not to respond to silly empty one liners.

I fall for it nearly on a daily basis! Funny, they guy can come with reasonable takes once in a while but the one liners define "****head" content. No, he is not one but the words are.

foosballnick wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Philc1 wrote:There’s only 2 paths:

A) Randle plays better next season, Knicks overall are better and get the 8th or 9th seed

B) Randle continues to be a ball stopper on offense, Knicks win less games next year, he gets Thibs fired after demanding a trade and eventually just getting a buyout

So your thought is that the Knicks are potentially going to opt to have $28m per year dead cap hit on a guy 20/10/5 guy who is under 30.

They’ve done it before why not again

So every situation is the same then?

Noah was 32 with career already on significant down-trend and who only played ~22 minutes per game at 7 pts /6 rebounds / 2 assists. He had one year left ~$19M (and people complain about EF's contract!!) which was stretched over 3 years at $6+M per year dead cap hit.

Randle is still in his prime at 35+ minutes (20/10/5) and if stretched after the upcoming season would be at $107M - which would mean dead cap space of $15+M per season over 7 years.

Perhaps some Knicks fans need to learn to separate prudent basketball business decisions from their own butthurt views based on a sometimes overly emotional and frustrated player giving them the finger.

Got a bad feeling the Randle contract next year starts to make the Noah contract look like a cake walk

If we let Mitch walk, don’t fix pg and are stuck with Randle trying to be a point forward in half court for 82 games next season could get very ugly early

Noah physically broke down and did not improve nor did he work on his craft much. Randle has a work ethic and track record that showed a very high end year to year improvement. Last year might have been more between the ears. Something that is hard for you to relate to as you redundantly demonstrate.
Randle at 27 with the exception of his rookie has shown durability.
He can dial back his 20-10 and still be a great contract if he can change his **** face attitude.
Thibs is very much part of how he is used. Much of this falls on him also.
As for Mitch you make it out like the center of 37 win team is the key to our success and like no player every walks away from a team uncompensated.
Last year about every reasonable FA was sign and trade. we don’t get full value in return, but thats par for the course.

You fell victim to it as well - LOL. It really is difficult not to respond to silly empty one liners.

You guys are right. Randle was amazing last year. That’s why we finished 8 games below .500 and missed the playoffs - and he’s only made the playoffs 1 out of 8 years in the nba. Is that an empty one liner?

TripleThreat wrote:

doomed wrote:My god some of the Randle takes and hate here are just ridiculous.

Zach Randolph with better muscle tone

HofstraBBall wrote:
If we need a better "best player" then how bout we keep him and get a better one? You are assuming a better player wants to come here or that Ramdle is keeping us from getting another star? Who and where is he coming from? I'm open to trading Randle for a "better" star player. Do you think ONE All Star on this squad will get us past the first round?

His production has been recorded. Which shows more than just two solid years. And Saying he only had two seasons in which he was a SYAR is minimizing how hard that is and the fact that makes him a really good player. Pouting to refs is definitely something he has to work on but let's not pretend MOST players hate losing and the team we had last year did a lot of it. Don't remember anyone complaining about that as an issue when he has an All Star year.
Him holding the ball, bringing it up court is something a good PG can help with. Do think the offensive scheme is geared too much to Iso but that is on the Coach and having other players be more aggressive. Think Roae was a good example of pushing the tempo despite Randle being in the floor.

Once again, not opposed to trading Randle for BETTER players but seems like no one wanting him gone is suggesting that. More like get rid of him because he pouts or to give Obi more minutes. Which may leave us with a weaker team. IMO

That's not "pouting", that's being a ****ing worthless POS to your profession, your team, your teammates, your franchise, your sport, and to the actual integrity of the game itself.

The only thing I've ever seen you do here is consistently make excuses for player's ****ty play or ****ty behavior.

"For many people, an excuse is better than an achievement because an achievement, no matter how great, leaves you having to prove yourself again in the future but an excuse can last for life."

jskinny35 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

SergioNYK wrote:Randle's 20/5/10 are such empty stats when you factor in his lapses in effort defensively, the constant crying to the refs and the drama off the court. Bet you Obi or someone else putting up 'lesser' stats of like 15/3/7 would impact winning a lot more. Don't be fooled or sucked into Randles stats.

We should not be fooled by empty stats? He has been producing since his first year in the league. He got us to the playoffs? That is pretty relevant data? You want to erase that and focus instead on se disappointed fan narrative? Fact is consistent production absolutely matters.

Agree that Randle was frustrated last year and had things going on off the court. But get rid of our best player? Why not realize and focus and other key issues:

1) He had NO starting PG after first part of season.
2) We lost our second unit PG and closer.
3) RJs slow start and injury
4) IQ's slow start.
5) Kemba not fitting in.
6) We had 2 new starter who never played with other three.

Think these had some affect. But let's blame "off court dram" from a guy that still put up numbers.

You get rid of him because...
if he's our best player - we need a better player to be our best player
he plays at a completely different pace vs the majority of the remaining core players
he sees himself as the best player and won't take a secondary role unless another new star arrives
he holds the ball, plays with inconsistent intensity and pouts to refs, fans, etc
he had one season where he looked like a star - the other 6/7 seasons he was mostly inefficient or played okay behind AD on the Pels
the majority of the fan base does not like him and wants him gone - so even if that's unfair he has too small a margin for error
he hinders the development of others with his ball-holding style (eg IQ), doesn't allow minutes for Obi (not his fault), etc
RJ seemed to play better when he assumed a more alpha position and while RJ is wildly inconsistent - he's much younger so more hope
Toppin showed in remaining weeks that he can play... while it's unclear how good he can become - he's earned the opportunity

If we need a better "best player" then how bout we keep him and get a better one? You are assuming a better player wants to come here or that Ramdle is keeping us from getting another star? Who and where is he coming from? I'm open to trading Randle for a "better" star player. Do you think ONE All Star on this squad will get us past the first round?

His production has been recorded. Which shows more than just two solid years. And Saying he only had two seasons in which he was a SYAR is minimizing how hard that is and the fact that makes him a really good player. Pouting to refs is definitely something he has to work on but let's not pretend MOST players hate losing and the team we had last year did a lot of it. Don't remember anyone complaining about that as an issue when he has an All Star year.
Him holding the ball, bringing it up court is something a good PG can help with. Do think the offensive scheme is geared too much to Iso but that is on the Coach and having other players be more aggressive. Think Roae was a good example of pushing the tempo despite Randle being in the floor.

Once again, not opposed to trading Randle for BETTER players but seems like no one wanting him gone is suggesting that. More like get rid of him because he pouts or to give Obi more minutes. Which may leave us with a weaker team. IMO

He doesn't conduct himself like a professional when things don't go his way - there is plenty of video going back to his Laker days so this is not an uncommon situation. Probably the entire league of players hate losing and 98% don't act like idiots - Randle does. I have been complaining about Randle since the beginning of his MIP season - don't like the way he plays the game. Doesn't move the ball, doesn't put forth consistent defensive effort, etc..

We're all open to trading him for a better player but what does it say that we likely can't even get equal value for him? You built him up saying he has more than two solid years - yet nobody is looking to acquire him...and why - because the rest of the league tuned in while he regressed (which happens) and he made an ass of himself on multiple occasions. At this point I would trade him for Westbrook and just sit or release Westbrook. In direct contrast RJ conducts himself professionally and maintains composure.

We don't need another season of Thibs running the offense through Randle and watching him implode until he has negative value. Yes a PG could help - but don't think Randle's ego would allow him to adjust to a secondary role - unless it were a CP3 vet type. You think he would take a backseat to Brunson - I sure don't! While Kemba was clearly past his prime - he was a respected multiple all-star and yet the entire time Kemba played Randle dominated the ball. I agree with you that it a shared responsibility with Thibs.

We may be weaker at first - but there is something to be said about team chemistry, cohesion and playing at a non-1990s NBA pace. We caught a glimpse in the 2nd half of last season - RJ taking more of a primary role and IQ and Toppin coming along. While I'm not sure RJ won't need to slide back into a secondary position eventually - worst thing we could do next season is sit Toppin and IQ and resume Randle in the primary offensive role. You could argue we would be worse but I actually think we could be equal or possibly better. In the long-term for sure because we'd find out what we have with IQ, Toppin and RJ (in primary role) and that won't occur if we go back to snail-ball with Randle, Burks, Fournier and a 43 year Rose.

The bolded assertion is most the dubious. Randle alone will not get the Knicks a "better" player. The best hope I have is a return of useful assets. And this is the problem with useful assets - we have a truckload of role players already.

So, to me, trade Randle for an imperfect, nobody's favorite, but useful NBA starting material asset.

And, though I know its a tedious repetition, D. Russell, like Randle, has been and can be a very effective starting PG - someone we need, a PF being someone Minny needs, our so-called "core" and draft pick inventory remains unaffected.

Listening to the Macri contingent and KFTV, evertone is predicting a three or four year slog to respectability anyway. DLo fills that gap.

jskinny35 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

SergioNYK wrote:Randle's 20/5/10 are such empty stats when you factor in his lapses in effort defensively, the constant crying to the refs and the drama off the court. Bet you Obi or someone else putting up 'lesser' stats of like 15/3/7 would impact winning a lot more. Don't be fooled or sucked into Randles stats.

We should not be fooled by empty stats? He has been producing since his first year in the league. He got us to the playoffs? That is pretty relevant data? You want to erase that and focus instead on se disappointed fan narrative? Fact is consistent production absolutely matters.

Agree that Randle was frustrated last year and had things going on off the court. But get rid of our best player? Why not realize and focus and other key issues:

1) He had NO starting PG after first part of season.
2) We lost our second unit PG and closer.
3) RJs slow start and injury
4) IQ's slow start.
5) Kemba not fitting in.
6) We had 2 new starter who never played with other three.

Think these had some affect. But let's blame "off court dram" from a guy that still put up numbers.

You get rid of him because...
if he's our best player - we need a better player to be our best player
he plays at a completely different pace vs the majority of the remaining core players
he sees himself as the best player and won't take a secondary role unless another new star arrives
he holds the ball, plays with inconsistent intensity and pouts to refs, fans, etc
he had one season where he looked like a star - the other 6/7 seasons he was mostly inefficient or played okay behind AD on the Pels
the majority of the fan base does not like him and wants him gone - so even if that's unfair he has too small a margin for error
he hinders the development of others with his ball-holding style (eg IQ), doesn't allow minutes for Obi (not his fault), etc
RJ seemed to play better when he assumed a more alpha position and while RJ is wildly inconsistent - he's much younger so more hope
Toppin showed in remaining weeks that he can play... while it's unclear how good he can become - he's earned the opportunity

If we need a better "best player" then how bout we keep him and get a better one? You are assuming a better player wants to come here or that Ramdle is keeping us from getting another star? Who and where is he coming from? I'm open to trading Randle for a "better" star player. Do you think ONE All Star on this squad will get us past the first round?

His production has been recorded. Which shows more than just two solid years. And Saying he only had two seasons in which he was a SYAR is minimizing how hard that is and the fact that makes him a really good player. Pouting to refs is definitely something he has to work on but let's not pretend MOST players hate losing and the team we had last year did a lot of it. Don't remember anyone complaining about that as an issue when he has an All Star year.
Him holding the ball, bringing it up court is something a good PG can help with. Do think the offensive scheme is geared too much to Iso but that is on the Coach and having other players be more aggressive. Think Roae was a good example of pushing the tempo despite Randle being in the floor.

Once again, not opposed to trading Randle for BETTER players but seems like no one wanting him gone is suggesting that. More like get rid of him because he pouts or to give Obi more minutes. Which may leave us with a weaker team. IMO

He doesn't conduct himself like a professional when things don't go his way - there is plenty of video going back to his Laker days so this is not an uncommon situation. Probably the entire league of players hate losing and 98% don't act like idiots - Randle does. I have been complaining about Randle since the beginning of his MIP season - don't like the way he plays the game. Doesn't move the ball, doesn't put forth consistent defensive effort, etc..

We're all open to trading him for a better player but what does it say that we likely can't even get equal value for him? You built him up saying he has more than two solid years - yet nobody is looking to acquire him...and why - because the rest of the league tuned in while he regressed (which happens) and he made an ass of himself on multiple occasions. At this point I would trade him for Westbrook and just sit or release Westbrook. In direct contrast RJ conducts himself professionally and maintains composure.

We don't need another season of Thibs running the offense through Randle and watching him implode until he has negative value. Yes a PG could help - but don't think Randle's ego would allow him to adjust to a secondary role - unless it were a CP3 vet type. You think he would take a backseat to Brunson - I sure don't! While Kemba was clearly past his prime - he was a respected multiple all-star and yet the entire time Kemba played Randle dominated the ball. I agree with you that it a shared responsibility with Thibs.

We may be weaker at first - but there is something to be said about team chemistry, cohesion and playing at a non-1990s NBA pace. We caught a glimpse in the 2nd half of last season - RJ taking more of a primary role and IQ and Toppin coming along. While I'm not sure RJ won't need to slide back into a secondary position eventually - worst thing we could do next season is sit Toppin and IQ and resume Randle in the primary offensive role. You could argue we would be worse but I actually think we could be equal or possibly better. In the long-term for sure because we'd find out what we have with IQ, Toppin and RJ (in primary role) and that won't occur if we go back to snail-ball with Randle, Burks, Fournier and a 43 year Rose.

You have some valid points. Still have not addressed why you do not think it is a good idea to address the issues I brought up before we do anything drastic. Which would be to trade your best player for "unequal value". Which by the way, who says we are not able to get equal value? Everything out there about Randle being traded is from some BS blogger. Have yet to see Knicks say they made an offer which included Randle but was rejected by another team. Yet to see Knicks say they are trading Randle.

Saying that our chemistry would be better and that eventually we would be good if we trade Randle is just a guess. What's not a guess is that we got to the playoffs on Randle's back just one year ago. In terms of the player Randle is, what changed in ONE year? You are bringing up a list of things wrong with him yet just ONE year ago some very smart people in the FO decided to sign him to an extension. Did they not realize what you are claiming? These are the same respected guys that have taken us from being laughing stocks. The reality is that the only thing that changed with Randle is his three point percentage. Which was what made him an All Star.

And once again, you seem to be proving my point. You seem to be focused on removing Randle in order to give Obi more minutes. Why?
What has Obi proven? That He can dunk? Just do not see why some on here think Obi has earned the right to push out an All Star and be a starter?
As for IQ, he is not sitting. He is good.