Good point, the Success of OBi IQ and RJ is a success, not a failure. Respect the timeline, these guys were not playing great earlier in the season. OBI we knew drafted was a slow starter at every level.
Could it have happend “Soooner to save the season, bench Randle, and live happy ever after”? We’ll never know.

Randle returning. He no doubt has to change his act. The body language and complaining. Win, you can do it. Not, it looks bad.
Can he come back? For those who can’t do it, you say no. Me, he ca pave the road by being media friendly:

1. Own it. Personal stuff? Come clean and say it. Don’t have to explain detais.
2. Pledge love for knicks, Fans and the city.
3. Talk is one thing, got to walk the walk we season turns around.

The bad look seemed to put himself above the team. That can change. Do the bus to the Gym thing on the road, be a mentor/Mench, and put lessor numbers is ok as long as the ball moves and the team succeeds over .500 and in playoffs.

Yes, Randle can come back. He has some work to do. What ever was bugging him need not be public but he has to feed the fans somethig to bite on and endear himself.

Clear the air. If the world can forgive A Rod, certainly doing all the things you said would help reset things.

Knixkik wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:We have been looking for yoots that show promise. We now have 3 players in RJ, Obi and Quickley that looks to have a very good future. We build around them.

1st order of business is to trade Randle. I would look into the Lakers and see if we can make a deal. They are desperate and LeBron might be foolish enough to think he can fix Randle.

re-Sign Mitch. Mitch and Sims manning the C position fills 1 of the hard positions to get in the NBA.

See what we have in Cam Reddish. I really like this kid. I thought he was just a shooter but his defense and playmaking is a revelation to me.

We really need a vet playmaking PG. If Rose can come back then we are golden. However, I am not sure if this is prudent. Rubio would be great if he has recovered from his injuries.

Draft 4s and 5s that can shoot.

I really hope Rokas pans out.

I really want to believe that RJ, IQ and Toppin are 3 players we can build around. I’m not sold given the timing of the breakouts (outside of RJ) but I want to believe it. Time will tell.

That is the thing with young players, you need time. Forecasting is hard to do. You just have to look at talent, IQ and work ethic. Seems like the 3 of them have it. I always liked cultivating our own. It has always been the journey with me. I want to see these kids grow and succeed. If they fail then so be it.

Nalod wrote:Resign Mitch to what amount?
What if he does not want to stay in NY?

Good point, the Success of OBi IQ and RJ is a success, not a failure. Respect the timeline, these guys were not playing great earlier in the season. OBI we knew drafted was a slow starter at every level.
Could it have happend “Soooner to save the season, bench Randle, and live happy ever after”? We’ll never know.

Randle returning. He no doubt has to change his act. The body language and complaining. Win, you can do it. Not, it looks bad.
Can he come back? For those who can’t do it, you say no. Me, he ca pave the road by being media friendly:

1. Own it. Personal stuff? Come clean and say it. Don’t have to explain detais.
2. Pledge love for knicks, Fans and the city.
3. Talk is one thing, got to walk the walk we season turns around.

The bad look seemed to put himself above the team. That can change. Do the bus to the Gym thing on the road, be a mentor/Mench, and put lessor numbers is ok as long as the ball moves and the team succeeds over .500 and in playoffs.

Yes, Randle can come back. He has some work to do. What ever was bugging him need not be public but he has to feed the fans somethig to bite on and endear himself.

Even Spreewell turned his image around. Best to do it by on court stuff complimented with a few words of love.

NYKBocker wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:We have been looking for yoots that show promise. We now have 3 players in RJ, Obi and Quickley that looks to have a very good future. We build around them.

1st order of business is to trade Randle. I would look into the Lakers and see if we can make a deal. They are desperate and LeBron might be foolish enough to think he can fix Randle.

re-Sign Mitch. Mitch and Sims manning the C position fills 1 of the hard positions to get in the NBA.

See what we have in Cam Reddish. I really like this kid. I thought he was just a shooter but his defense and playmaking is a revelation to me.

We really need a vet playmaking PG. If Rose can come back then we are golden. However, I am not sure if this is prudent. Rubio would be great if he has recovered from his injuries.

Draft 4s and 5s that can shoot.

I really hope Rokas pans out.

I really want to believe that RJ, IQ and Toppin are 3 players we can build around. I’m not sold given the timing of the breakouts (outside of RJ) but I want to believe it. Time will tell.

That is the thing with young players, you need time. Forecasting is hard to do. You just have to look at talent, IQ and work ethic. Seems like the 3 of them have it. I always liked cultivating our own. It has always been the journey with me. I want to see these kids grow and succeed. If they fail then so be it.

I agree about the journey. I’d like to see this group be the right mix to be a perennial playoff team. I never was a championship or tank guy. I think developing this group even if it leads to first round exits is important. And add pieces who can get them closer as long as we maintain flexibility. I think rose and the front office are along those same lines as well.

NYKBocker wrote:We have been looking for yoots that show promise. We now have 3 players in RJ, Obi and Quickley that looks to have a very good future. We build around them.

1st order of business is to trade Randle. I would look into the Lakers and see if we can make a deal. They are desperate and LeBron might be foolish enough to think he can fix Randle.

re-Sign Mitch. Mitch and Sims manning the C position fills 1 of the hard positions to get in the NBA.

See what we have in Cam Reddish. I really like this kid. I thought he was just a shooter but his defense and playmaking is a revelation to me.

We really need a vet playmaking PG. If Rose can come back then we are golden. However, I am not sure if this is prudent. Rubio would be great if he has recovered from his injuries.

Draft 4s and 5s that can shoot.

I really hope Rokas pans out.

Let's trade our best player and put our hopes on a 2nd round pick.

BRIGGS wrote:

gradyandrew wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:We have been looking for yoots that show promise. We now have 3 players in RJ, Obi and Quickley that looks to have a very good future. We build around them.

1st order of business is to trade Randle. I would look into the Lakers and see if we can make a deal. They are desperate and LeBron might be foolish enough to think he can fix Randle.

re-Sign Mitch. Mitch and Sims manning the C position fills 1 of the hard positions to get in the NBA.

See what we have in Cam Reddish. I really like this kid. I thought he was just a shooter but his defense and playmaking is a revelation to me.

We really need a vet playmaking PG. If Rose can come back then we are golden. However, I am not sure if this is prudent. Rubio would be great if he has recovered from his injuries.

Draft 4s and 5s that can shoot.

I really hope Rokas pans out.

Let's trade our best player and put our hopes on a 2nd round pick.

I’m not sure he’s the best for the team. Lebron is 10 x better
A Davis is 10x better but they did not make a good team.
I think our best bet is to evolve around iq rj and obi. Randle hurts obi growth. No way he is not a starter at the 4 spot.

You can make a case for revolving the team around RJ, Obi and IQ because there’s something to be said about guys who are friends and workout together constantly and stay healthy. The continuity can make for a team that plays above their talent level. We still need a lead guard but someone who can play off the ball as well. If the long term plan is to start IQ, Brogdon might be a good fit for the team.

gradyandrew wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:We have been looking for yoots that show promise. We now have 3 players in RJ, Obi and Quickley that looks to have a very good future. We build around them.

1st order of business is to trade Randle. I would look into the Lakers and see if we can make a deal. They are desperate and LeBron might be foolish enough to think he can fix Randle.

re-Sign Mitch. Mitch and Sims manning the C position fills 1 of the hard positions to get in the NBA.

See what we have in Cam Reddish. I really like this kid. I thought he was just a shooter but his defense and playmaking is a revelation to me.

We really need a vet playmaking PG. If Rose can come back then we are golden. However, I am not sure if this is prudent. Rubio would be great if he has recovered from his injuries.

Draft 4s and 5s that can shoot.

I really hope Rokas pans out.

Let's trade our best player and put our hopes on a 2nd round pick.

2. I am putting our hopes on a 2nd rounder? Really?

Knixkik wrote:
You can make a case for revolving the team around RJ, Obi and IQ because there’s something to be said about guys who are friends and workout together constantly and stay healthy. The continuity can make for a team that plays above their talent level. We still need a lead guard but someone who can play off the ball as well. If the long term plan is to start IQ, Brogdon might be a good fit for the team.

It would be fun to watch such a young core, but the fan base needs to be patient, and not expect an instant winning record next season based on good performance by this group in a number of meaningless late-season games against other team's B-squads.

Brogdon is a fine player, but his Indiana teams went nowhere despite being loaded with talent. At 29 years old, he is what he will ever be. At $20m per year, he is making similar money to Fournier and his impact will be similar too. EF was also a good fit on paper, I still cannot understand why it did not work out this season.

gradyandrew wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

technomaster wrote:
There’s still some mystery over what happens with Obi/Randle. It’s not an ideal fit - but on offense they’re quite complementary - Obi brings a lot of speed and energy on offense, is more versatile than Mitch, and simply brings more to the table.

Honesty, I just don't see it.

Randle refuses to pass and he hogs the ball. He's a black hole on offense. Toppin can't create his own shot and needs someone to feed him the ball in transition. Randle just loafs around the court and has just stopped giving a **** unless he "feels" like it and no one knows when he is going to feel like giving a **** during any given game.

Toppin needs to play fast. Randle got his big fat contract and now he'll just play slow.

Toppin isn't enough of a three point threat to create good spacing for Randle. Since other teams know Randle won't pass, even if he's got four guys draped all over his nut sack, he kills floor spacing all by himself.

As Uptown mentioned before, neither has the skill set to effectively defend the rim. Toppin is still a liability overall on defense and most of this season, Randle just didn't give a **** while other teams cooked him over and over again.

Best answer is trade them both off the roster.

Randle is toxic. He needs to go. He gave up on this team so he can literally go **** himself. Play the game right or get out.

Toppin is a good teammate and a hard worker. But this team just traded a first rounder for Reddish and they need to see what he can give this team. Toppin creates more questions than answers. I keep hearing that the Knicks "need to use him right" as if that's going to ignore the issue that in order to hide all of Toppin's flaws and negative trade offs, you need an All Star team around him. I'm happy he played well over the last 10 or so games, it raises his trade value a little. But if you can't defend the rim and you can't provide any kind of defense, then you need to be a true offensive engine type player. How do you do that if you can't create your own shot?

The general conflict with Toppin is what I said in the preseason before he was drafted - Are the Knicks putting themselves in a position to eat all his growing pains and struggles, only to groom him and give him room to grow at the cost of wins, so that his 2nd team can reap all the benefits?

Look at Nerlens Noel on this roster. Didn't do all the much for Philly. And he was a high draft pick. But it took him time to put it together and he finally was a great value for OKC and then his first Knicks year. All that blood and grind and struggle that cost the 76ers and Mavericks assets and money and coaching toil and cap space and minutes and roster space, was reaped by the Thunder and Knicks later on.

The Knicks should not be in the position to be Obi Toppin's "farm team"

If there's a fair trade for Toppin, just move him. It's obvious as long as Thibs is around, Toppin is not going to get big minutes and to be fair about it, the defensive problems warrant that kind of situation. I tell running back prospects all the time, if you can't or don't pass block and get it right, you won't play. No one is going to see you break that long run if you aren't on the field and you won't be on the ****ing field if you can't block.

Too much talk about Toppin's offense and not enough about why his defense is keeping him on the bench. And his offense is not lethal enough to make a worthy trade off for his defense. He's not James Harden in his prime. He's not even Jamal Crawford. Hell he's not even Jason Richardson.

At Thibodeau's final press conference he mentioned how much better Randle is when he plays uptempo. I don't think it's fair to say Randle doesn't pass when he's led the team in assists the past two seasons. It's an even money proposition to me that Randle can regain last seasons form, he was willing to share the offense with Rose last season and with RJ this season.

There was a stretch of the season where Randle and Obi shared the court more. I would like to rewatching some of those minutes. Obi has always played well with Taj- I don't think there's anything Taj gives that Randle couldn't as well (except a sheeit).

Thibs really loves Randle. I don't know if he would still be the best coach if the Knicks got rid of Randle.

gradyandrew wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

technomaster wrote:
There’s still some mystery over what happens with Obi/Randle. It’s not an ideal fit - but on offense they’re quite complementary - Obi brings a lot of speed and energy on offense, is more versatile than Mitch, and simply brings more to the table.

Honesty, I just don't see it.

Randle refuses to pass and he hogs the ball. He's a black hole on offense. Toppin can't create his own shot and needs someone to feed him the ball in transition. Randle just loafs around the court and has just stopped giving a **** unless he "feels" like it and no one knows when he is going to feel like giving a **** during any given game.

Toppin needs to play fast. Randle got his big fat contract and now he'll just play slow.

Toppin isn't enough of a three point threat to create good spacing for Randle. Since other teams know Randle won't pass, even if he's got four guys draped all over his nut sack, he kills floor spacing all by himself.

As Uptown mentioned before, neither has the skill set to effectively defend the rim. Toppin is still a liability overall on defense and most of this season, Randle just didn't give a **** while other teams cooked him over and over again.

Best answer is trade them both off the roster.

Randle is toxic. He needs to go. He gave up on this team so he can literally go **** himself. Play the game right or get out.

Toppin is a good teammate and a hard worker. But this team just traded a first rounder for Reddish and they need to see what he can give this team. Toppin creates more questions than answers. I keep hearing that the Knicks "need to use him right" as if that's going to ignore the issue that in order to hide all of Toppin's flaws and negative trade offs, you need an All Star team around him. I'm happy he played well over the last 10 or so games, it raises his trade value a little. But if you can't defend the rim and you can't provide any kind of defense, then you need to be a true offensive engine type player. How do you do that if you can't create your own shot?

The general conflict with Toppin is what I said in the preseason before he was drafted - Are the Knicks putting themselves in a position to eat all his growing pains and struggles, only to groom him and give him room to grow at the cost of wins, so that his 2nd team can reap all the benefits?

Look at Nerlens Noel on this roster. Didn't do all the much for Philly. And he was a high draft pick. But it took him time to put it together and he finally was a great value for OKC and then his first Knicks year. All that blood and grind and struggle that cost the 76ers and Mavericks assets and money and coaching toil and cap space and minutes and roster space, was reaped by the Thunder and Knicks later on.

The Knicks should not be in the position to be Obi Toppin's "farm team"

If there's a fair trade for Toppin, just move him. It's obvious as long as Thibs is around, Toppin is not going to get big minutes and to be fair about it, the defensive problems warrant that kind of situation. I tell running back prospects all the time, if you can't or don't pass block and get it right, you won't play. No one is going to see you break that long run if you aren't on the field and you won't be on the ****ing field if you can't block.

Too much talk about Toppin's offense and not enough about why his defense is keeping him on the bench. And his offense is not lethal enough to make a worthy trade off for his defense. He's not James Harden in his prime. He's not even Jamal Crawford. Hell he's not even Jason Richardson.

At Thibodeau's final press conference he mentioned how much better Randle is when he plays uptempo. I don't think it's fair to say Randle doesn't pass when he's led the team in assists the past two seasons. It's an even money proposition to me that Randle can regain last seasons form, he was willing to share the offense with Rose last season and with RJ this season.

There was a stretch of the season where Randle and Obi shared the court more. I would like to rewatching some of those minutes. Obi has always played well with Taj- I don't think there's anything Taj gives that Randle couldn't as well (except a sheeit).

Thibs really loves Randle. I don't know if he would still be the best coach if the Knicks got rid of Randle.

It's not that he doesn't pass - it's that for someone who dominates the ball so much - he needs to be a ball mover. Averaging 5 assists is good but when the majority of his passes come with limited time on the shot clock after he's doubled dribbing to the corner is not the same as moving the ball and/or setting up teammates for easy scores and then picking his own spots offensively. My primary concern with not giving Randle another season is that his instinctual play is to hold the ball and play at a slow pace. That is not likely to change for the long-term when he's in his 7th/8th year in the league. Reason I'm an Obi supporter is even if he doesn't produce comparable stats to Randles - he plays uptempo an moves the ball quickly (his instinct). I joked before that Thibs needs to play "hot potato" with Randle so he can practice moving the ball and making quick decisions. I agree when he does that he becomes a completely different player (eg 1st vs Lakers). Problem I see is he always reverts back to his slow pace/hold the ball default position when things don't go well for him.