foosballnick wrote:

martin wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:This season has been such a let down. All the wasted money in free agency this off-season. Randle has regressed. Not sure whats going on there. Maybe the Knicks have been shopping him.

I believe 2 things are happening at the same time.

First, they wanted to move away from a strictly RJ, Randle heavy offense. Last year was a perfect storm that allowed both to thrive and they proved that out and team came with them. But I don't think the Knicks thought it was sustainable and this year has kinda sorta proved that out and the playoffs gave a glimpse of that.

Secondly, the Knicks also made another assessment that Randle probably wasnt the best fit as the #1 and his gravity on both the offense and defense was detrimental to the team and other players around him (especially when team is in development mode). He still wants to do the ISO thing, he has major lapses in defensive energy and tactics, ball is sticky with him, etc.

Without really any basis, I do think Randle is being shopped and the Knicks want to move on from him and about 8-10 games ago we saw his reaction to finding out. Could be something entirely different too. Could be his lack of leadership and personality and the boo'ing incident and how he handled it.

Guys like Melo and Randle don't adjust well outside of their pure strengths and they want to impose their will by just using that toolset with little regard for team, etc. Have they had success? Sure. Can a team be built around them to have pretty high level success? Sure. But is it best for the team in the role that they want to ultimately play? Not sure.

I agree with this. The only thing is that it does not appear Thibs has reigned Randle in (or perhaps does not have a desire to reign him in). My thoughts are that its up to the coach to impress his footprint on how he wants the team to play. He's allowing the team to stay Randle ISO heavy in crunch moments and also giving Randle heavy minutes even when he is playing poorly. Against Charlotte he was -22 and had 31+ minutes. Against NOP he was -26 and still had over 29 minutes. Against Cleveland he was -22 with over 32 minutes. If he is playing mediocre or better he's closer to 40 minutes.

Really not sure what to make of this except that perhaps much like what happened when Melo was here - this has become Randle's team and Randle's locker room and he's being given free reign and preferential treatment by the staff whether he plays well or poorly. When the team does not have good results, and Randle sulks or becomes problematic as the locker room leader - things might deteriorate quickly.

I'm not a Randle hater by any means - but unless he immediately starts playing better on a more consistent basis - to me the only way out is to either trade him or bring in a superstar level player that he has to defer to. I don't think he will give deference to any player on the current roster (including RJ) and I don't think the Knicks will be able to bring in a superstar in the near term - so for me, trading Randle in the ASAP is the way to go if Leon is paying attention.

Mostly I agree with all of what you are saying.

I would also say in the same token, Randle IS the Knicks' best player in terms of offensive gravity, he can create mismatches and imbalances in a defense; realistically no other Knicks player is ever double teamed. When Randle makes quick decisions and gets downhill, it is REALLY good. When he is locked in, he is GREAT. We saw a lot of that last year.

Randle has a contract and a lot of Fuck You ability. It shows. Randle does not have 100% energy, we can see it. Some times he plays great D like he did 1-on-1 against Mobley, sometimes he couldn't give a **** about playing defense and it shows. It's his Fuck You to the team.

I think Thibs handles the personality pretty well, continually praising him to the media even though we all know he is cussing him out under his breadth.

Nalod wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:ITs plausible that Randle has been on trade talk. The reality of Fans turning on Thibs and Randle is a demonstration of impatience by a frustrated fan base. It really does not factor on Leons construction.
Lets be real, Randle skill set coveted by other teams? If so it should be measured. Im ok with that.
Guessing at why randle is so salty is a good exercise for us. Many theories. Mine is he is adapting to his ball movement development and decison making. For EF and RJ to succeed, and the team to succeed he has to do this. Maybe thats what I see in his hesitancy at times. He is moving the ball a lot more!

The CAA and KEntucky thing is way over played. WE keep thinking thats why players come. Is it why they don’t leave?

Depth. Is Thibs uncreative? Are the really good coaches really creative after success with a formula they have high conviction with? They stick to their ways and taskmaster until the team executes. Did Thibs create this roster? With Grimes coming on at the 2, Reddish has no entry at the moment. The notion is if we don’t win of three games then “Why not experiment”. Is that what the really good coaches do? “Experiment?”

Im not coming with answers as some of you have taken to offer in other threads. I don’t fancy myself as one to out think Thibs nor use the benefit of hindsight to justify some moves.

I saw EF sit and Grimes finish last night. Im seeing a change in Randle with more RJ in charge. Im seeing IQ finishing the game but not executing. I saw Obi play more last night down the stretch. I’d say these are changes over the course of a season and him using depth. We saw him pull Kemba after 20 games. That was radical. Most of what he does is adjustments. Call it change.

The results dont back up my thesis but thats ok. Im not the coach. Im just observing.

100%

I do think Fournier is more of a system player. I think he has gotten after Randle about his type of play and that's why Randle is grumpy and Thibs has stuck with him even though he has been underwhelming at time.

Martin, you are looking at emotions and reactions. perhaps Im looking at it from Thibs is asking Randle to execute and Randle is frustrated (grumpy). Jules can do it but it takes time. The contact he was given to me factors in not a superstar salary (cornerstone) but a foundational piece. That Randle is not having an easy time instinctively. its taking longer. I see thee effort. I might also see the confusion and subsequent frustration born from that.

Randles beef earlier this season was chemistry. EF was not making his cuts correctly and messing up Randles timing. That timing BTW was not down pat either. It seems to be working a bit better and EF is getting better looks. Since Randle is the Point Forward some of that is on him. Then there is the setting up RJ for success. All this might aggregate into Randle frustration with himself and what he is being asked to do. It could very well been disccussed as a prerequisite to this contract. That the knicks vision for him at that money and Randle had to agree.

Lets face it, all we have is what is the teams trying to do and are they executing.
In Phil Jax book about his time in LA he dissected why they won some years and not others. He took blame, and often shouldered some on Kobe for not executing his vision or installing his own for that year. Is randle really stubborn? I don’t know. Seems like he got the security and signed on. Otherwise he could have gone free agent.

?

You and I pretty much said the same thing. Both Fournier and Thibs asking and expecting more from Randle. But I am an emotional guy and the ladies do love that and my soft soft but firm hands, so I'll take it.

Where is TripleThreat when you need him?

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:

martin wrote:

Nalod wrote:ITs plausible that Randle has been on trade talk. The reality of Fans turning on Thibs and Randle is a demonstration of impatience by a frustrated fan base. It really does not factor on Leons construction.
Lets be real, Randle skill set coveted by other teams? If so it should be measured. Im ok with that.
Guessing at why randle is so salty is a good exercise for us. Many theories. Mine is he is adapting to his ball movement development and decison making. For EF and RJ to succeed, and the team to succeed he has to do this. Maybe thats what I see in his hesitancy at times. He is moving the ball a lot more!

The CAA and KEntucky thing is way over played. WE keep thinking thats why players come. Is it why they don’t leave?

Depth. Is Thibs uncreative? Are the really good coaches really creative after success with a formula they have high conviction with? They stick to their ways and taskmaster until the team executes. Did Thibs create this roster? With Grimes coming on at the 2, Reddish has no entry at the moment. The notion is if we don’t win of three games then “Why not experiment”. Is that what the really good coaches do? “Experiment?”

Im not coming with answers as some of you have taken to offer in other threads. I don’t fancy myself as one to out think Thibs nor use the benefit of hindsight to justify some moves.

I saw EF sit and Grimes finish last night. Im seeing a change in Randle with more RJ in charge. Im seeing IQ finishing the game but not executing. I saw Obi play more last night down the stretch. I’d say these are changes over the course of a season and him using depth. We saw him pull Kemba after 20 games. That was radical. Most of what he does is adjustments. Call it change.

The results dont back up my thesis but thats ok. Im not the coach. Im just observing.

100%

I do think Fournier is more of a system player. I think he has gotten after Randle about his type of play and that's why Randle is grumpy and Thibs has stuck with him even though he has been underwhelming at time.

Martin, you are looking at emotions and reactions. perhaps Im looking at it from Thibs is asking Randle to execute and Randle is frustrated (grumpy). Jules can do it but it takes time. The contact he was given to me factors in not a superstar salary (cornerstone) but a foundational piece. That Randle is not having an easy time instinctively. its taking longer. I see thee effort. I might also see the confusion and subsequent frustration born from that.

Randles beef earlier this season was chemistry. EF was not making his cuts correctly and messing up Randles timing. That timing BTW was not down pat either. It seems to be working a bit better and EF is getting better looks. Since Randle is the Point Forward some of that is on him. Then there is the setting up RJ for success. All this might aggregate into Randle frustration with himself and what he is being asked to do. It could very well been disccussed as a prerequisite to this contract. That the knicks vision for him at that money and Randle had to agree.

Lets face it, all we have is what is the teams trying to do and are they executing.
In Phil Jax book about his time in LA he dissected why they won some years and not others. He took blame, and often shouldered some on Kobe for not executing his vision or installing his own for that year. Is randle really stubborn? I don’t know. Seems like he got the security and signed on. Otherwise he could have gone free agent.

?

You and I pretty much said the same thing. Both Fournier and Thibs asking and expecting more from Randle. But I am an emotional guy and the ladies do love that and my soft soft but firm hands, so I'll take it.

Where is TripleThreat when you need him?

I think Randle has always shown the desire to do what is asked of him. Think he gets grumpy because he is not able to.

I keep mentioning that our biggest issue is that we have NO ONE that is controlling the flow of the offense. There have been many one-dimensional players, like Randle, on winning teams. However, most have had good PG's that were excellent at distributing the basketball ball and controlling the offense. For me, an experienced PG controls the flow of the game. Knows when to feed his scorer, when to feed his hot hand, to pass the ball to players only when they are in optimal spots. But most importantly, a good PG demands the ball and takes charge of running the next play.

For me, Randle is a score-first player. Which you want. He is also a low or mid-post beast. Which you want. He can also hit an occasional three. Which you want. He is not a Point forward though. Nor is he someone who should be bringing the ball up or initiating the offense. If you look at his first year, Fiz wanted him to be more like a point forward and that did not look good.
Unfortunately, I think he is back to doing that this year. But I think it is because he does not have a true PG that has taken charge.

If you look at last night's game, Thibs decided to go into that second to last possession without calling a time out. Good strategy. But only if you have a good floor general who can get his players in their best position. We did not have that. Instead, Randle brought the ball up, wasted time, and made a bad decision to pass it to RJ, who took a bad three. Is that on Randle or on the fact we do not have a true floor general?

Bad three are those that go in?
He had a nice open look. The left side was defended, better he should get tied up? Im ok that he passed it out. im ok they had an offense, im ok with everything but the result.
Im sure we can come up with better results but that he did not spin out into a turn over, get blocked, or hacked and not called was also good.
Randle had to wait until the defense commited. once they did, he made the right call. Randle is our best player still. RJ is coming up and he had an open look. Until we have a better choice, Randle got the call. He passed out. Not terrible.

martin wrote:Knixkik, also stuff like this:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/JCMacriNBA/status/1485834408120795139

And hell yes that is impetus to shop a guy.

Last time we saw a stat like this, Kemba got Theo Pinson's parking space. Temporarily, at least.

I sure hope this FO isn't reading stuff like this as part of their status meetings.

Not just being all leave Britney alone here, but I've got to believe JR can turn this around. He's got some decent tools around him and I'm also hoping the return of DRose is going to dramatically change things the same way it did last year, coming in with relatively fresh legs, determined to make things better for both the vets and the yoots. Hell, maybe he even miraculously revitalizes Kemba if Thibs lets them play in the backcourt together... Clyde and Black Jesus to the rescue!!!

A man can dream...