knicks1248 wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:I have hated how since last year we have chosen the way of mediocrity, looking for a gradual improvement driven by our young roster maturing while having some capacity for a blockbuster trade. I would have preferred to tank last season. But our path has been set, and the worst thing would be to blow it all up and start over again, without giving it a chance to play out for another couple of years. There is no way we will get equal or better value back for any of our players right now, so might as well play the hand we have been dealt.

The best thing to do is keep the young players and try to dump all the players signed this off-season

Go look at the up incoming FA class, it's total trash, and almost 80% of FA last off season signed 2-3 yr deals.

You can't really dump a single player because your going to get back a player signed through next season.

Any trade we do is to bring in guys that will balance the roster from a energy and skill perspective.

blkexec wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Can we get a lottery pick for Fournier? What about Burks? This ship 🚢 needs a new course I think.

This the kind of trades we should do, without blowing it up again or sacrificing our youths. Cp3 or Lebron james in his prime ain’t walking through that door to save us. Even if we wanted to start over for the 100th time.

Trade them or other roll playing vets for picks or young players similar in age to Mitch or younger. Let Randle figure out his mental challenges while RJ is ready to take the wheel. Thibs already proved that riding Randle and RJ with heavy minutes along with D Rose and Taj, we can make some noise. It was proven last year. Go back to what worked last year and rebuild from there. Before Kemba and Fournier arrived.

The guy in the draft we need to target is Kennedy Chandler. A bunch of draft scout sites are having him mocked to us but his stock will probably rise by the time the draft happens so we may need to trade up just to get him. Someone in the draft thread proposed using Obi and the Dallas pick -- think that's a good idea.

ESOMKnicks wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Can we get a lottery pick for Fournier?

No

ramtour420 wrote:What about Burks?

No

ramtour420 wrote:This ship 🚢 needs a new course I think.

You can't blow up teams every two years and hope to build a contender. This ship needs some continuity.

Ok how about playing an actual PG? I heard McBride is available to play. How much worse than Burks can he be in the starting lineup?
Since we are on the topic, what about an offensive coordinator? Could we hire one of those? Pretty sure that's what teams do when their offense is a steaming pile of hot flaming garbage

Rookie wrote:Westbrook has one year on his contract after this one, is that so bad? We already have no cap room next year. Why not an LA reunion for Randle?

Randle, Fournier and Walker to Lakers

Westbrook to Knicks

Clears up our roster log jam, our cap for 2023 and he is technically a PG and can break defenses down. He well gives 100% effort every game. Maybe this isn’t so crazy after all

I keep saying "no" to Westbrook at this stage in his career - but if we got rid of Randle and could view Westbrook as a 2 year training experiment to teach our young players how to consistently play hard - I'd do it if the Lakers threw in an unprotected pick. One thing Westbrook does do is play hard. He can't shoot much, is too ball dominant, etc - but maybe he could serve as a mentor for RJ so he can (hopefully) take over the team in a year or two. We're not going anywhere desirable with Randle as the big dog.

Philc1 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:Can we get a lottery pick for Fournier? What about Burks? This ship 🚢 needs a new course I think.

This the kind of trades we should do, without blowing it up again or sacrificing our youths. Cp3 or Lebron james in his prime ain’t walking through that door to save us. Even if we wanted to start over for the 100th time.

Trade them or other roll playing vets for picks or young players similar in age to Mitch or younger. Let Randle figure out his mental challenges while RJ is ready to take the wheel. Thibs already proved that riding Randle and RJ with heavy minutes along with D Rose and Taj, we can make some noise. It was proven last year. Go back to what worked last year and rebuild from there. Before Kemba and Fournier arrived.

The guy in the draft we need to target is Kennedy Chandler. A bunch of draft scout sites are having him mocked to us but his stock will probably rise by the time the draft happens so we may need to trade up just to get him. Someone in the draft thread proposed using Obi and the Dallas pick -- think that's a good idea.

Don’t know the player but I like the ring of it

Chandler wrote:

TheGame wrote:Stay the course. "Don't Panic." We have trade assets. We have young players. We have two solid players in RJ and Randle. We just need a 1A to bring it all together. The Knicks should play the rookies, the 2nd years, RJ and Reddish and see what they have while we wait for a disgruntled star to want out from their current team.

This is the right way. The blow it up stuff is nonsense. Take a look who’s winning. Bucks what was Gianni’s picked 15? How many years did it take. Warriors a lot of guys not at top. Denver and phoenix. They’re best guys were not at top.

The poster children of top picks are Minny and Sixers and they’re still searching

Fix it. Yes

Tear it down. No

IQ
RJ
Cam
Randle
Mitch
Burks
Fournier
Noel
Rose
Taj
Grimes
McBride
Sims
Obi

Is the most talent this team has had as a group since idk. Yeah they don’t have a 1A but this team is still underproducing. They should look to maybe streamline the talent, but after that it’s time to move Thibs. Moving Randle as he is playing right now is not going to be cheap and you’ll probably get crap back like when they moved Zbo.

jskinny35 wrote:

Rookie wrote:Westbrook has one year on his contract after this one, is that so bad? We already have no cap room next year. Why not an LA reunion for Randle?

Randle, Fournier and Walker to Lakers

Westbrook to Knicks

Clears up our roster log jam, our cap for 2023 and he is technically a PG and can break defenses down. He well gives 100% effort every game. Maybe this isn’t so crazy after all

I keep saying "no" to Westbrook at this stage in his career - but if we got rid of Randle and could view Westbrook as a 2 year training experiment to teach our young players how to consistently play hard - I'd do it if the Lakers threw in an unprotected pick. One thing Westbrook does do is play hard. He can't shoot much, is too ball dominant, etc - but maybe he could serve as a mentor for RJ so he can (hopefully) take over the team in a year or two. We're not going anywhere desirable with Randle as the big dog.

You're suggesting a suicidal, irrational trade.

Look, if Westbrook gets bought out by the Lakers he'd be a nice addition to this lackluster squad. Given Mitch's increasingly interesting development under the basket, Westbrook's terrible outside shooting might be redeemed with second chances here.

We are way too far down the line to entertain the "play the kids" mentality. The first casualty of that will be a bath in the tank, and the second will be Thibs' job. This team *has to* play to win. Thibs is not a development coach and going backward to those days will truly result in a "blown up" Knicks FO and roster.

But let's play magical thinking and ignore the history of doing that and pretend that a second rounder or two play well enough - it will still take three to five years for these guys to compete at the highest levels if ever. This front office can be patient as Buddha but they simply don't have that kind of runway - not in NY.

So this team will not be blown up but I expect a shakeup. And I expect that serious veteran talent will be targeted and the trade chips will inevitably offend some fans who imagine some shiny far away horizon when all these kids suddenly blossom and are rewarded with a ring. You canot get there from here without real talent.

jskinny35 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:

Rookie wrote:Westbrook has one year on his contract after this one, is that so bad? We already have no cap room next year. Why not an LA reunion for Randle?

Randle, Fournier and Walker to Lakers

Westbrook to Knicks

Clears up our roster log jam, our cap for 2023 and he is technically a PG and can break defenses down. He well gives 100% effort every game. Maybe this isn’t so crazy after all

I keep saying "no" to Westbrook at this stage in his career - but if we got rid of Randle and could view Westbrook as a 2 year training experiment to teach our young players how to consistently play hard - I'd do it if the Lakers threw in an unprotected pick. One thing Westbrook does do is play hard. He can't shoot much, is too ball dominant, etc - but maybe he could serve as a mentor for RJ so he can (hopefully) take over the team in a year or two. We're not going anywhere desirable with Randle as the big dog.

You're suggesting a suicidal, irrational trade.

Look, if Westbrook gets bought out by the Lakers he'd be a nice addition to this lackluster squad. Given Mitch's increasingly interesting development under the basket, Westbrook's terrible outside shooting might be redeemed with second chances here.

We are way too far down the line to entertain the "play the kids" mentality. The first casualty of that will be a bath in the tank, and the second will be Thibs' job. This team *has to* play to win. Thibs is not a development coach and going backward to those days will truly result in a "blown up" Knicks FO and roster.

But let's play magical thinking and ignore the history of doing that and pretend that a second rounder or two play well enough - it will still take three to five years for these guys to compete at the highest levels if ever. This front office can be patient as Buddha but they simply don't have that kind of runway - not in NY.

So this team will not be blown up but I expect a shakeup. And I expect that serious veteran talent will be targeted and the trade chips will inevitably offend some fans who imagine some shiny far away horizon when all these kids suddenly blossom and are rewarded with a ring. You canot get there from here without real talent.

This is not what I would prefer to do but after I keep seeing a few posters mentioning Westbrook - I have softened and would consider in the right deal. I don't think a Westbrook for Randle type of deal is throwing in the towel completely. I think Thibs would love Westbrook much in the same way he loves D Rose. He plays hard and with a sense of urgency, is a good penetrator and hustles. He also can't shoot consistently from outside and is likely to break down. Knowing all this the reason I would consider it would be to turn Randle into a first round pick. Ideally if we could involve a 3rd team and land a better pick that would be much preferred. The truth is Randle = mediocrity and he was never the long-term plans here (why we selected Toppin) anyway. But he had a terrific season last year and FO started to consider him as the focal point going forward. This year he returned back to earth and we have to look ahead while still remaining somewhat competitive. I'm not a fan of Westbrook, and at this stage of his career - even less. That said he would set a good example for hard work, is reportedly a good teammate - and could keep us afloat (competitively speaking) for another year until his contract expires. If I thought this years Randle could return a better pick or player in return - I would do that first. Last year we should have sold high - but now his value is low and we are not going to improve drastically keeping him.

So if we could land a #1 pick and a serviceable player (eg K.Nunn or Horton-Tucker), while offloading Randle's contract, along with Fournier and Kemba's deal - why is that so bad? We could cut bait on 2 offseason signing mistakes and land a future # 1 pick (that could be valuable as Lebron will be retired by 2027)... I suspect RJ would learn from him and be better for it in another season or so.

Westbrook can't keep the Lakers afloat and that's with LeBron on the team!

HofstraBBall wrote:

Nalod wrote:Two games under .500 and then blow it up?
Not like we a 23 game winnig team. We trendig to 41-41 give or take.
One seaosn we good and now mediocrity is above some of you?
Then what, blow it up and among the smolding ashes we have picks?
Dolan protests to sell the team. He won’t.
Because its January and 2 games under .500? If last year did not happen, we’d be celebrating.
Phuckig pussies some of you are! Take a break for a few games. Relax.

Well said.
Can we bump your "Lets boo the fans" thread?
Love the lets start Deuce talk. Hope is better than reality for the desperate. No memory of the "start Obi threads"? "IQ/Burks at PG" threads.
Lets trade Randle for Westbrook talk. Cuz he will "teach' our yoots. Those saying that may want to watch the video of him walking out on Lakers in last seconds of the game.
Trade everyone proven that is struggling for a mid to low 1st talks. Cuz we have killed it with so many firsts over the years.

These fans are a bunch of crying babies. They have no actual understanding of what is needed for a pro team to gel and grow.

Nalod, I missed this post. Man, tell us how you really feel 🤣.

I think the lazy approach is to blow it up. But there’s too many old school knick fans that been there done that. What we haven’t done is what we are doing now, developing the yoots. We haven’t had anything consistent in years.

Randle and RJ have flaws? Yes. Both have heart and passion that all teams need. We put too much expectations on their shoulders. We thought last year was a stepping stone but could be an aberration or an anomaly. Maybe Randle and RJ are really #2 and #3 (or 2a and 2b) trying to learn how to be #1, on a roster that doesn’t enhance their positives, to increase their impact. I believe all players regardless of skill set, can be placed in a position to win. Especially if they made it this far to the nba.

This blow it up discussion was understood when Lebron was available. Blow it up works if NY was like LA or Miami where players are kicking and screaming to be here. In reality the days of NYC being the draw for players to come is over. Now it’s all about stability and fostering an environment for young and old players to prosper. If we continue to blow it up every year, we reduce our chances to attract the talent we need. Time to take the tradition approach that all small market teams take. Draft and develop. Leon rose did great with draft picks and gathering young talent. As we develop keep an eye out for #1 talent. Meanwhile keep making d rose type additions until we find the right formula to build on.

martin wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

jskinny35 wrote:

Rookie wrote:Westbrook has one year on his contract after this one, is that so bad? We already have no cap room next year. Why not an LA reunion for Randle?

Randle, Fournier and Walker to Lakers

Westbrook to Knicks

Clears up our roster log jam, our cap for 2023 and he is technically a PG and can break defenses down. He well gives 100% effort every game. Maybe this isn’t so crazy after all

I keep saying "no" to Westbrook at this stage in his career - but if we got rid of Randle and could view Westbrook as a 2 year training experiment to teach our young players how to consistently play hard - I'd do it if the Lakers threw in an unprotected pick. One thing Westbrook does do is play hard. He can't shoot much, is too ball dominant, etc - but maybe he could serve as a mentor for RJ so he can (hopefully) take over the team in a year or two. We're not going anywhere desirable with Randle as the big dog.

You're suggesting a suicidal, irrational trade.

Look, if Westbrook gets bought out by the Lakers he'd be a nice addition to this lackluster squad. Given Mitch's increasingly interesting development under the basket, Westbrook's terrible outside shooting might be redeemed with second chances here.

We are way too far down the line to entertain the "play the kids" mentality. The first casualty of that will be a bath in the tank, and the second will be Thibs' job. This team *has to* play to win. Thibs is not a development coach and going backward to those days will truly result in a "blown up" Knicks FO and roster.

But let's play magical thinking and ignore the history of doing that and pretend that a second rounder or two play well enough - it will still take three to five years for these guys to compete at the highest levels if ever. This front office can be patient as Buddha but they simply don't have that kind of runway - not in NY.

So this team will not be blown up but I expect a shakeup. And I expect that serious veteran talent will be targeted and the trade chips will inevitably offend some fans who imagine some shiny far away horizon when all these kids suddenly blossom and are rewarded with a ring. You canot get there from here without real talent.

This is not what I would prefer to do but after I keep seeing a few posters mentioning Westbrook - I have softened and would consider in the right deal. I don't think a Westbrook for Randle type of deal is throwing in the towel completely. I think Thibs would love Westbrook much in the same way he loves D Rose. He plays hard and with a sense of urgency, is a good penetrator and hustles. He also can't shoot consistently from outside and is likely to break down. Knowing all this the reason I would consider it would be to turn Randle into a first round pick. Ideally if we could involve a 3rd team and land a better pick that would be much preferred. The truth is Randle = mediocrity and he was never the long-term plans here (why we selected Toppin) anyway. But he had a terrific season last year and FO started to consider him as the focal point going forward. This year he returned back to earth and we have to look ahead while still remaining somewhat competitive. I'm not a fan of Westbrook, and at this stage of his career - even less. That said he would set a good example for hard work, is reportedly a good teammate - and could keep us afloat (competitively speaking) for another year until his contract expires. If I thought this years Randle could return a better pick or player in return - I would do that first. Last year we should have sold high - but now his value is low and we are not going to improve drastically keeping him.

So if we could land a #1 pick and a serviceable player (eg K.Nunn or Horton-Tucker), while offloading Randle's contract, along with Fournier and Kemba's deal - why is that so bad? We could cut bait on 2 offseason signing mistakes and land a future # 1 pick (that could be valuable as Lebron will be retired by 2027)... I suspect RJ would learn from him and be better for it in another season or so.

Westbrook can't keep the Lakers afloat and that's with LeBron on the team!

Lebron doesn’t mesh with ball dominant pgs. He only did for a short period with Kyrie and then even they had a falling out

Kemet wrote:After watching 46 Knicks games .. the obvious biggest problem on the ROSTER from losing games we are supposed to win are from the Knicks head coach Thibs.
Coach Thibs decision-making without assistant coach Woodson in the 2021-22 season has been pitiful!

Thibbs needs to answer this:

Rose is hurt and Kemba was out, somehow IQ’s minutes are reduced? Huh? That’s the inverse of expectation.

In a game against Boston where Fournier scores 41 pts, and the final play of the game having 1.8 sec remaining and down by 1 pt, Thibs goes to the player who been performing sloppy throughout the game, plus had his shot blocked 6 times to take the final shot. Huh? Why not set up the same screens for Fournier to take the final shot?

I agree! These are legit reasons to say “fire Thibs” . His offensive decisions are trash and he plays Burks too much I think for his iffy point of attack defense.