fwk00 wrote:Thibs was in inevitable fall guy for this past season's FO performance.

Bullock and Frankie are sorely missed and the whiff during the trade deadline sealed Thibs' fate. Thibs is not an innocent here. He probably advocated for some of the accrual of worthless bodies from last year to this. But still. The roster is FLAWED no matter who coaches it. A tangled mess of look-alike statistical wonders.

Mitch did lose weight and suddenly got better.

Knox will be missed more and more as Cam gets "minutes".

Kenny Atkinson is the best idea floating around for a replacement.

This team isn't tanking - it doesn't have to - it will sink to the usual "You get what you deserve" lottery position.

The Knicks should not play to lose. We aren't that team again. We have some talent but it needs curation and orchestration and de-duping.

I understand moving on from Bullock. How he was replaced was a problem but that doesn't automatically mean keeping Bullock was the best overall long term decision.

Kevin Knox chose not to play hard. Low motor. Fuck him then. Play hard or get out. I can forgive a player for being a low BBIQ player if that's all they have within them. If they give you all they have and they are just a dummy on the court, that's tragic but it's something no one can control. How hard you work and how hard you push is something you can control.

Frank Ntilikina didn't move and play hard off the ball. He was upset about being frozen out so often. So what. That's your job. So **** him too. Play hard or get the **** out.

Daryl Morey took a pretty bizarre and ugly situation in Philly when he got hired and just made the best of it. He got good value out of Simmons in a really complex scenario. What mattered? He doesn't give a **** how he feels about things, what matters is the issue in front of him helps him win games or loses games. He also doesn't give a **** what the media things, fans thinks, sports "experts" think and most of the time, what his owner even thinks.

For over 10 years on this forum, I've been a very good basketball analyst. And basketball is not even my major sport. All of my life was built around football. Part of the reason I make good evaluations and good touts is I also don't give a **** how anyone feels. The benefit of removing "feelz" is you break **** down to what wins or loses games.

Frank Ntilikina refused to play hard off the ball. Fuck him. Not because his shots weren't falling, but because if you refuse to play hard and play the right way, then you are playing like an ******* and need to GTFO.

Same for Knox. Captain Fortnite can also go kiss my ass. For a very specific reason. Didn't play hard. Didn't put every last single bit of himself onto the floor.

Luke Garza works harder than 20 different fringe NBA starters combined. Mother****er just wants it more than other people. Whatever his flaws, and he has many, he's giving you 1000 percent all the time.

This isn't rocket science here - The first issue is every last mother****er on that roster needs to play balls out hard all the time. Like the Miami Heat. When the Heat had no talent, they played hard. When they had a lot of talent, they played hard. You might beat them in a single game, but it's going to cost you. You are going to have to bleed for that ****.

I recognize there are problems with Thibs and Leon Rose, but on the court, those guys out there need to man the **** up. Starting with Randle and his constant loafing bull****. I'm not going to be swayed by the few times he tries and has a good game when he's in "the right mood" Fuck that ****. Play hard or GTFO. That's what happens when people get drafted by the Heat. You play hard or we will get rid of you.

fwk00 wrote:
That's a fair response but the fact of the matter is that GTFO isn't an option for a team like the Knicks. I don't miss Knox an iota but I'm getting a strong vibe that Cam, for all his physical attributes, is probably going to have a similar shelf-life as Knox but for different reasons.

And I'm keenly aware of Frankie's weaknesses but he is still a better option than the Kemba/Burks/Quickley threesome. And Bullock was highly underrated. For all his faults, he too is a better option than the dumpster fire that followed.

Having said all that, I agree. This team is softer than Miami, Indy, and a dozen other teams. They don't play hungry and when they do its as if they are auditioning for a Broadway play.

By your standard for Knox, Frankie, and Bullock, they can all GTFO and I'm not sure I can argue except that we need somebody/anybody to take their place.

I've been pretty open about the issue that I didn't want the Knicks to draft Obi Toppin. Not in the preseason before he was drafted and not during his rookie year. That being said, I also said he's here and we can't change that and now we have to hope he pans out into something useful. I admit and have admitted that it's clear he's a hard working guy and effort is not going to be a problem for him. Sweat equity is not one of his many flaws.

In keeping with that, we all have to give Cam Reddish a chance. Did I want the Knicks to make this trade? To keep Reddish? No. To retrade him hopefully for value? Yes. But like Toppin, he's here and let's give him a chance to show what he has going on for himself.

The difference between Knox and Reddish is Knox was given many many many opportunities to take a starting job, make it his and force himself into the long term plans for this team. He didn't. He had his chance and blew it. Same for Ntilikina. That PG job was wide open for years. He has no one to blame but himself.

I'd like to give Reddish a chance. I'm not high on his BBIQ and his reputation is not a good one around the league.

I don't put Bullock in the same category as Knox and Frank N. I opposed resigning Bullock to the deal he did get because I'm leery of Middle Class Contracts. I'm not opposed to giving them out period, but I fully believe a team really really really needs to think long and hard before giving one out. Because the salary structure and the CBA and the salary cap don't reward MCCs as a team building tool.

If a guy isn't working out, get rid of him sooner than later. The Suns pooched it by drafting Jalen Smith. But instead of rotting with him and his flaws, they just moved on. Not drafting someone else like Vassell or Haliburton might have cost Phoenix a championship. This was the Knox issue. No one else wanted him in trade and he was already making guaranteed money so he had value as salary ballast in a potential trade. ( Which is how he ended up being used) Not value as a player on the court, but value in terms of salary matching.

I can only speak to my experience as a professional athlete. Sometimes you just know an incoming draft pick, once you've seen him in practice and in the locker room and in how he prepares and deals with adversity in front of you, that the guy is basically a piece of ****. There's a difference between a guy who is just untalented and overmatched ( i.e. someone working as hard as they can but just don't have the goods to be a pro) versus someone who is a gigantic piece of **** ( i.e. someone with enough talent to stay in the league but is a lazy headcase loafing ******* dip****)

Teams need to start having the balls to not pick up a player's 3rd and 4th year options if they are a former first round pick. That's valuable minutes and a roster spot to find someone useful.

Every extra minute that Frank N rotted and loafed on this team was another minute that wasn't given trying to test out a guy like a Lu Dort or a Dorian Finney Smith or an Alex Caruso.

If you brought back Mudiay to this roster, you could argue Frank N is more valuable, in a bizarre ****ed up sense of the term, than Mudiay. And that's probably true. But just because that's true doesn't mean Frank N needs to be on this roster. The case exist where BOTH NEED TO GTFO and off the team.

The entire "He's better than this other failure" isn't good enough. This last draft class was a very strong one. Many UDFAs in that class would have been high 2nd rounders in another year. Plenty of fresh meat to sift through over a Knox or a Frank N. Guys who only punish the team as "sunk costs"

The Warriors could have hung onto Jacob Evans to prove a point. To make their front office not feel bad about a miss. But that's not winning basketball games. You accept the mistake and you move on. This is what make Bill Belichick and Billy Beane so successful. They miss all the time, but they move on.

So there are things the front office needs to do better.

And there are things Thibs needs to do better.

But those are separate problems. They do need addressing but you don't solve problems by turning them into stew.

Right now, what can be fixed IMMEDIATELY, is every last mother****er on this current roster needs to play at 5000 percent all the time. Play hard all the time. Fight for every last bit of everything like a Luke Garza. That's a start and that's the first foundation to changing losing ways on a team.

foosballnick wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

fwk00 wrote:That Thibs would be on a coaching hot seat in Dec. of his second year?

that Kevin Know would become the new Frank Ntilikina fan favorite?

that Mitch Robinson would be considered over weight to play center?

nobody predicted and none of these things have happened. They are all made up bull****

Well, its been a NY minute since this response.

I've been a fan of this team for a long, long time.

Thibs was in inevitable fall guy for this past season's FO performance.

Bullock and Frankie are sorely missed and the whiff during the trade deadline sealed Thibs' fate. Thibs is not an innocent here. He probably advocated for some of the accrual of worthless bodies from last year to this. But still. The roster is FLAWED no matter who coaches it. A tangled mess of look-alike statistical wonders.

Mitch did lose weight and suddenly got better.

Knox will be missed more and more as Cam gets "minutes".

Kenny Atkinson is the best idea floating around for a replacement.

This team isn't tanking - it doesn't have to - it will sink to the usual "You get what you deserve" lottery position.

The Knicks should not play to lose. We aren't that team again. We have some talent but it needs curation and orchestration and de-duping.

Frank did not play all that much in the last few years for the Knicks - so not sure of your rationale as to how he will be "sorely missed".

Knox played even less - so again - how will he be missed?

Mitch was coming off injury - not sure how you did not factor that in to his improved play as he worked himself into playing shape.

Not sure how you have any more or less insight on Cam than the rest of us. I personally need to see more to evaluate.

The team still needs an NBA starting level PG. None of the points you made regarding personnel addresses that issue (and no....Frank is not an NBA quality starting level PG).

I took it as fans miss Frank and Kev as we needed something to argue over?

TripleThreat wrote:

Nalod wrote:
Triple, you have a take on RJ? His post news years games before getting hurt were in my mind a big step up to which caused chemistry issues layered on other chemistry issues.

In terms of the Knicks struggles this year, I'd call RJ Barrett a "push" situation. I.E. he's not helping the team in a dramatic way like a true franchise player could and he's not egregiously hurting this team on purpose.

I am very impressed with his state control and his demeanor in front of the press. He clearly soaked in the things that Coack K always preaches at Duke.

RJB's ability to create his own shot has gotten better. I'm going to be honest, I'm glad the Knicks finally have a player that drafted that can be productive beyond just a role player. What RJB is figuring out is how to overcome the trade offs in his game and skill set to put himself in better situations to create his own shot. Which says something good and something bad at the same time. The good is he's adapting. The bad is he clearly has athletic and skill limitations you don't want to see when you are asking yourself if you want to give the guy a max contract or not.

I'm not a fan of his shooting splits and not a fan of his free throwing shooting in general. I'm also not a fan of the first third of the season being a ramp in period for him. He may always ending up struggling to start every year.

Is he a "Franchise Max" level player? ( i.e. can he lead your team to the playoffs and a future pillar to a contender?) No

Is he a "Market Max" level player? ( i.e. does the NBA marketplace dictate he get the max because you have to pay someone at some point and hit the cap floor and he can at least give you counting stats and someone to build your team marketing around, etc, etc) I'd still, sadly, say No.

RJB looks like a compiler. He'll get his numbers through volume. I'm impressed that he is often, given the current situation, thrust into the role of the primary defensive cover and he stands up and pushes forward to the challenge.

His upside long term might be the Mitch Richmond/Richard Jefferson/Antwan Jamison type range.

To be fair, I'd like to see RJB without Randle for a very very long stretch. But since Randle has four more years after this season and he doesn't look like he's going to up his trade value, the Knicks might be locked in long term with this RJB/Randle pairing. NY might be cornered into giving RJB a max extension because of the long term chaos this franchise has had and RJB will look like a type of stability.

The problem of course is Randle just demoralizes this entire team. Can RJB handle 4 more years of that and not mentally break from it?

Fair points. He was sick and had some covid prior to January.
The bursts of in traffic dunking was a new look. The right hand is improving. He does not have lanky quick body but at 21 is sturdy in an "Oscar robertson" type build.
I won't judge his career trajectory quite yet as I see the high volume thing while losing as Thibs "developing" him on the fly. My guess, and only guess is Thibs is conflicted trying to win and develop. I thought he'd be over this already.
Maybe Randle is too as he was the man last year, and now he is being told to be judicious and give RJ room to grow?
The cranky bad behavior thing on Randle is not something Im liking at all.

RJ is 21. if he was 24 I'd say he about hit his ceiling. I can't tell if he is a cornerstone or a foundational piece. I have said many times Randle is a foundational piece and paid like one. Not a max.
He need not be last years rRandle to be of value. Lets hope he can level off his emotions going forward.

Im of the thought that nothing is written in stone. Just becuase I can't see a path don't meant good things can't happen.

jskinny35 wrote:I'm willing to bet if you swap Randle out for a similarly producing player that doesn't hold the ball and clog up the paint RJ will perform much better. Randle and RJ's limitations are similar in that they are both high volume shooters (erratic) that utilize the same space so they often have to take turns offensively. RJ at 21 has shown better capacity to handle pressure and move the ball when doubled vs Randle (27) still repeats the same mistakes over and over. Maybe RJ won't be the guy but we have to find out what he can do before deciding on his next contract.

Yes Randle has taken a lot of pressure off of RJ as he develops (much like Melo did with KP early on) but the spacing and lack of ball movement is a killer to any team's offense (unless that ball dominant player has excellent court vision, makes quick decisions and can handle pressure when game gets tight).

Randle's weaknesses are what I just listed... Yes of course we still need a quality PG as priority! Can we use Randle to land one instead of trying to select from a limited available pool that minimize Randle's limitations? Otherwise it's Brunson or bust it seems...

Randle has a 15 percent trade kicker. That makes everything harder in trading him.

Randle's 4th year is a player option. Again, that makes everything harder in trading him.

Randle's incentive base is "Likely To Be Earned", which means all his incentives in his contract count AGAINST the Knicks or any other team's total salary cap. It's roughly about 3 million a year on average. That means while the Knicks might get a cash savings each season ( that's more of a benefit for a cash poor team like the Jazz or Hawks), that chokes out future cap flexibility.

You can't use the veteran's minimum ( an exception to the cap) on UDFA and 2nd rounders with no service time. First rounders can be seamlessly pushed into the roster because the rookie slotting operates as a formal exception to the cap. You need cap space to sign the next useful UDFA like a Tillie, Dort, Finney Smith and Caruso. Not what those players are making now, but what they were making when they were massive bargains giving you exponential production at pennies on the dollar.

That incentive base problem, which would be traded with Randle to any new team, is also a huge problem and disincentive. The incentive base is built around All Star appearances and he's had one in 8 seasons of service time. Odds are he won't get more at this rate. And the cash savings in not paying out those incentives by a new team are overwhelmed by the 15 percent trade kicker.

Add this to his **** the bed moment against the Hawks and his bull**** attitude problems this year and he's looking like an anchor around the neck of this team.

On RJB, if you look at practical coaching methods ( i.e. what is the smallest number of adjustments you can make to get the largest exponential return in overall production?), then what will help the most?

1) Like all players in the NBA, no matter their tenure or skill set or talent base, RJB needs to keep working on his three point shot. The better the long range shooter, the better the floor spacing and gravity he can create.

2) He's got to make a giant leap in finishing around the rim. If he can do that, his game moves up a level. The problem is RJB is not a player with "Cheat Code" type athleticism. And he is not severely flawed in any one category but he's not elite in any one category either.

Long term projection? You hope he's somewhere between Mitch Richmond and Antawn Jamison. I don't think he'll ever be as good as Richmond but you hope he can have the sort of longevity and volume of Jamison.

RJB doesn't quite help you win and he doesn't quite help you lose. But I'm still glad he's on this roster. You have to start somewhere when a team has suffered this long.

I’m not confident at all we solve pg this summer. We’re likely picking 8th again like we always do so no Ivey. We have no cap space for a FA signing like Brunson or Tyus Jones unless Rose/Perry can pull off a sign and trade involving Mitch which is unlikely