TripleThreat wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:Watching FIBA games and I think I have an explanation on why FIBA Frank looks so good. In FIBA, refs let them play. Touch fouls are not called. Just ask Team USA. Frank really gets into the players and shuts them down. In the NBA, he gets into foul trouble when the refs decide to protect the star player that he is guarding. I mean, there are so many YouTube videos of players like Kyrie getting calls when Frank doesn't even touch them. Because of this, he has a lot of confidence in FIBA games which helps with his offensive game. Plus, his coach and teammates actually shows confidence in him. With the Knicks, I think his teammates genuinely likes him and shows confidence. His coaches tell a different story. Also, even in the NBA, you can see him shutting people down even with the way refs call the games.

I don't know. I love Frank because we drafted him, he is a premier defender both on-ball and help. I love him because he is not selfish. Fans that value buckets over defense will never like Frank. I say buckets because offense is not just about getting individual buckets.

Frank Ntilikina is incredibly selfish.

Is he playing in FIBA when he plays for the Knicks? No, so he needs to adjust to do what it takes to help the Knicks win actual basketball games.

But that's not Frank N's comfort zone! Who gives a **** what makes Ntilikina the most mother****ing comfortable?

Do all of you love each and every aspect of your career or job or work? Do any of you march into your bosses office and say you can't do the job the way your company wants it done because that's not how you did it in the past for a different company? Try doing that. See how long that **** lasts before you get fired.

If Frank N wants to play by FIBA rules and in a Euro style, then retire from the NBA, give the Knicks their money back and go play in Europe instead.

Where the **** is this narrative coming from, from so many of you here, not all of you, but sadly a staggering number of you, that Frank Ntilikina has no obligation to the Knicks to subvert what he wants and what makes him comfortable to actual do what it takes to help this team win actual basketball games. You know - HIS MOTHERFUCKING JOB.

Apparently everyone else is an ******* for saying Frank Ntilikina is going to have to do some **** he doesn't want to do because that's what it means to GO TO WORK and WORK FOR SOMEONE ELSE and FULFILL AN OBLIGATION YOU MADE BY CHOICE.

Offense is a TEAM EFFORT. Is Frank N doing his part to help the Knicks succeed on offense? He's not. It's not like every other NBA team is beating down the door to trade for him and the Knicks had him on the trade block for two years straight.

The excuses some of you make for Ntilikina make no sense for basic life survival. I mean if some of you tried to pull the **** that Frank N is pulling here and has done for years, most of you would be homeless for it. I mean JFC, how hard is the concept that you are paid to do a job, you take that job by choice, but you won't love every single moment of your job, but you created your own obligation and duty to answer to someone else's expectations, and irritation/discomfort/weariness/frustration/anger/wishing you were somewhere getting drunk and getting your dick sucked instead - that's why it's called work.

The mind boggling ass kissing of Frank Ntilikina requires some of you to be reminded of the entire concept of working for a living. Seriously, with chocolate sprinkles on top, what the ****.

Can't wait till Frank is off the team solely so you can spend much more time criticizing Obi instead of having to split time with Frank.

Funny thing that you mention jobs as a comparison. I think its a good one but not for all the reasons you site.

Lets put Frank in the general workforce...

- Wonderkid who is recruited by an Executive VP at 19 years old from France to come to the US for a high paying job in a privately owned firm. English is your second language.
- The owner of the firm being a semi-incompetent silver spoon man child who inherited the firm and spends his time playing guitar at open mike nights.
- The Executive VP who brought you in to the firm to perform a certain function specific to how he designed the organization and staff - is fired about 1 week after you're hired.
- The new replacement executive is a lifer "yes man" type
- Essentially the entire management team who you report to is replaced after a couple months on the job.
- 70% of the entire staff of the firm is turned over within your first year.
- The new management team that was brought a couple months after your hire is again fired and fully replaced after your first year on the job. The lead manager is a flashy "relationship" guy who really has no clue about process design, team building, mentoring nor managing.
- 70% of the entire staff is again replaced during/after your second year on the job and now you are the only team member remaining from 2 years ago.
- 18 months later - the lead manager is fired with one of his supporting staff replacing him. The new lead manager has a completely different management style than previous.
- 6 months later - the Executive VP is replaced by someone from outside the firm and brings his own team in creating further layers
- A new management team is also brought in again - with a completely different process.
- The working team is again turned over by ~50%

Point is, while you are putting all the onus on Frank, perhaps you can give an example of NBA players who have thrived with the type of general turnover and turmoil around this franchise over the past 4 seasons. In 4 years - 4 different head coaches & staffs, 3 different front offices. He is the only player left from 2017-18 season.

This is NOT to say that Frank is a martyr or does not need to put in the work. He definitely needs to work to hone his craft - mainly on offense - if he wants to succeed in the NBA. But given your job/office analogy - most of us would have moved on to other opportunities where we could prosper - rather than stay in that type of organizational disfunction.

foosballnick wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:Watching FIBA games and I think I have an explanation on why FIBA Frank looks so good. In FIBA, refs let them play. Touch fouls are not called. Just ask Team USA. Frank really gets into the players and shuts them down. In the NBA, he gets into foul trouble when the refs decide to protect the star player that he is guarding. I mean, there are so many YouTube videos of players like Kyrie getting calls when Frank doesn't even touch them. Because of this, he has a lot of confidence in FIBA games which helps with his offensive game. Plus, his coach and teammates actually shows confidence in him. With the Knicks, I think his teammates genuinely likes him and shows confidence. His coaches tell a different story. Also, even in the NBA, you can see him shutting people down even with the way refs call the games.

I don't know. I love Frank because we drafted him, he is a premier defender both on-ball and help. I love him because he is not selfish. Fans that value buckets over defense will never like Frank. I say buckets because offense is not just about getting individual buckets.

Frank Ntilikina is incredibly selfish.

Is he playing in FIBA when he plays for the Knicks? No, so he needs to adjust to do what it takes to help the Knicks win actual basketball games.

But that's not Frank N's comfort zone! Who gives a **** what makes Ntilikina the most mother****ing comfortable?

Do all of you love each and every aspect of your career or job or work? Do any of you march into your bosses office and say you can't do the job the way your company wants it done because that's not how you did it in the past for a different company? Try doing that. See how long that **** lasts before you get fired.

If Frank N wants to play by FIBA rules and in a Euro style, then retire from the NBA, give the Knicks their money back and go play in Europe instead.

Where the **** is this narrative coming from, from so many of you here, not all of you, but sadly a staggering number of you, that Frank Ntilikina has no obligation to the Knicks to subvert what he wants and what makes him comfortable to actual do what it takes to help this team win actual basketball games. You know - HIS MOTHERFUCKING JOB.

Apparently everyone else is an ******* for saying Frank Ntilikina is going to have to do some **** he doesn't want to do because that's what it means to GO TO WORK and WORK FOR SOMEONE ELSE and FULFILL AN OBLIGATION YOU MADE BY CHOICE.

Offense is a TEAM EFFORT. Is Frank N doing his part to help the Knicks succeed on offense? He's not. It's not like every other NBA team is beating down the door to trade for him and the Knicks had him on the trade block for two years straight.

The excuses some of you make for Ntilikina make no sense for basic life survival. I mean if some of you tried to pull the **** that Frank N is pulling here and has done for years, most of you would be homeless for it. I mean JFC, how hard is the concept that you are paid to do a job, you take that job by choice, but you won't love every single moment of your job, but you created your own obligation and duty to answer to someone else's expectations, and irritation/discomfort/weariness/frustration/anger/wishing you were somewhere getting drunk and getting your dick sucked instead - that's why it's called work.

The mind boggling ass kissing of Frank Ntilikina requires some of you to be reminded of the entire concept of working for a living. Seriously, with chocolate sprinkles on top, what the ****.

Can't wait till Frank is off the team solely so you can spend much more time criticizing Obi instead of having to split time with Frank.

Funny thing that you mention jobs as a comparison. I think its a good one but not for all the reasons you site.

Lets put Frank in the general workforce...

- Wonderkid who is recruited by an Executive VP at 19 years old from France to come to the US for a high paying job in a privately owned firm. English is your second language.
- The owner of the firm being a semi-incompetent silver spoon man child who inherited the firm and spends his time playing guitar at open mike nights.
- The Executive VP who brought you in to the firm to perform a certain function specific to how he designed the organization and staff - is fired about 1 week after you're hired.
- The new replacement executive is a lifer "yes man" type
- Essentially the entire management team who you report to is replaced after a couple months on the job.
- 70% of the entire staff of the firm is turned over within your first year.
- The new management team that was brought a couple months after your hire is again fired and fully replaced after your first year on the job. The lead manager is a flashy "relationship" guy who really has no clue about process design, team building, mentoring nor managing.
- 70% of the entire staff is again replaced during/after your second year on the job and now you are the only team member remaining from 2 years ago.
- 18 months later - the lead manager is fired with one of his supporting staff replacing him. The new lead manager has a completely different management style than previous.
- 6 months later - the Executive VP is replaced by someone from outside the firm and brings his own team in creating further layers
- A new management team is also brought in again - with a completely different process.
- The working team is again turned over by ~50%

Point is, while you are putting all the onus on Frank, perhaps you can give an example of NBA players who have thrived with the type of general turnover and turmoil around this franchise over the past 4 seasons. In 4 years - 4 different head coaches & staffs, 3 different front offices. He is the only player left from 2017-18 season.

This is NOT to say that Frank is a martyr or does not need to put in the work. He definitely needs to work to hone his craft - mainly on offense - if he wants to succeed in the NBA. But given your job/office analogy - most of us would have moved on to other opportunities where we could prosper - rather than stay in that type of organizational disfunction.

foosballnick wrote:

jrodmc wrote:The only problem with your extension of the job analogy is that NO OTHER JOB/OFFICE OPPORTUNITY IS INTERESTED IN FRANK. Unless of course, you're considering the Olympics as another job opportunity. I hear they don't pay terribly well though.

Not sure how you would know this yet, but we'll find out soon enough to see if he lands somewhere. I'm guessing that his salary will be less if he stays in the NBA.

Frank hasn't been on the trading block the last few seasons? Were there trade offers for Frank that the Knicks turned down?

But then, just going on what we can see, maybe Thibs and the FO are keeping frank from playing time to keep his value down? Not sure why they would do this, unless they think he's just another few seasons away from breaking out somehow...

martin wrote:

reub wrote:Frank is the most unselfish player I've ever seen. Too unselfish. He shot 48% from the 3pt stripe last season and his defense will always be first rate. We should lock him up for cheap, maybe 4 for $16 million with a team option.

You keep repeating that stat as if it was relevant and supportive of what Frank is as a player.

That's what his percentage was. I don't think everyone realizes just how accurate he was last season. It shows his potential. He's still young.

martin wrote:

reub wrote:Frank is the most unselfish player I've ever seen. Too unselfish. He shot 48% from the 3pt stripe last season and his defense will always be first rate. We should lock him up for cheap, maybe 4 for $16 million with a team option.

You keep repeating that stat as if it was relevant and supportive of what Frank is as a player.

I know it’s ridiculous. Citing statistics and facts

Philc1 wrote:

martin wrote:

reub wrote:Frank is the most unselfish player I've ever seen. Too unselfish. He shot 48% from the 3pt stripe last season and his defense will always be first rate. We should lock him up for cheap, maybe 4 for $16 million with a team option.

You keep repeating that stat as if it was relevant and supportive of what Frank is as a player.

I know it’s ridiculous. Citing statistics and facts

You all wanna die on the sword of Frank shooting 48% from the 3pt stripe for the season, have at it. But the world over is dumber for having some believe that it matters on its own.

The rest of us understand context and micro penis sample size.

Philc1 wrote:

I know it’s ridiculous. Citing statistics and facts

https://towardsdatascience.com/the-asset-of-age-e4b45599ea94

In hindsight, busts are often the result of misunderstanding this selection bias. Under certain circumstances, a team will draft a player almost entirely because they’re young. If the player hasn’t truly proven to be at the top of their peer group, it’s far from a given that they’ll be able to pull ahead. This is mistaking correlation for causation, essentially assuming a player will follow the trajectories shown above because they’re young. under other circumstances, a team will draft an older player who posted impressive numbers as a senior in college. In these cases, if the player wasn’t proven to be at the top of their peer group previously, then they may not be worth taking over younger players who have proven this. This is the opposite error to the first example, it is ignoring both the selection bias and the correlation altogether.

https://watchstadium.com/which-nba-statistics-actually-translate-to-wins-07-13-2019/

When attempting to judge how good a team will be in the standings, offensive rating is key. The most successful teams in 2018-19 all had stellar offensive ratings. Defensive rating, while not as important as its offensive counterpart, can also provide a strong indication of a team’s W-L record. These all-encompassing numbers will usually dictate how a team’s season will turn out.

Efficiency matters more than attempts for both overall shots and 3-point shots. The value of a 3-point attempt is more than a regular field goal attempt and shooting a better percentage from behind the arc means more in today’s NBA.

Rebounding differential is more important than a strong assist/turnover ratio. The margin in the latter statistic might be too small to create a difference in the standings. Dominate the boards, however, and you’re more likely to see a positive impact. Pace is largely irrelevant.

ESOMKnicks wrote:Bringing Frank back for another couple of years at $4m per year would be a good idea. A defensive specialist of his caliber would be worth as much anyway, plus he is still young, so there might be some upside.

Thibs signed a five year contract with the Knicks. With a first year where he won Coach Of The Year and helped bring the team into a massive turnaround into the playoffs after a long period of pure suffering, he's bought himself the next three years. Even if Thibs falls off a cliff and screws up everything next year, he's locked into people focusing on this incredible first year. Even if that spiral continues, it won't cost him his job until the midpoint of Year 4 on that contract. And that's the worst case scenario.

Thibs doesn't trust Ntilikina and simply won't play him unless he needs a warm body and there's no one else on the bench. That's established. And since Thibs has had success here, he's EARNED the right to say he doesn't want to play Ntilikina and just leave him alone and let him coach the damn team the way he sees fit to try to win games.

Why would Ntilikina resign with a team where it's clear the coach is not going anywhere anytime soon and that coach doesn't want to play him?

In order for Ntilikina to come back at the numbers you are suggesting, it means the Knicks would need to renounce Frank N's rights, flush his full Bird Rights and then resign him. If he resigned, he'd stay long enough to restart his Bird Rights clock only to likely get jettisoned later again.

Let's make something clear. CAA was not dropped by Ntilikina, they dropped him. They let Frank N say he dropped them because it costs them nothing to do so. They don't need that bad blood and risk of open conflict in the sports media. Ntilikina went to a low level agency ( none of the other majors wanted him) and if they encourage Frank N to resign to the Knicks only to have them eventually flush his Bird Rights again, they will never get another client again.

If Frank N was renounced and the Knicks were his best option, it means the rest of the league doesn't want him, not even on the veteran's minimum, so why would the Knicks give him more than his adjusted veteran's minimum?

If all you provide is defense, you better be the 2nd coming of Draymond Green or Dennis Rodman to move the needle on value to stay in a rotation and on a roster. Because it's not just being a defensive specialist, he's a defense only player who is not tasked nor experienced nor groomed to defend the rim. Needing rim protection means any team who takes in Ntilikina could face running their offense in a consistent 3 versus 5 manner. Until Ntilikina learns how to be a small ball pivot ( if he can even make that transition), no team who wants a functional offense is going to give him rotation minutes.

If the Knicks renounced Frank Ntilikina and he resigns a multiyear deal at an AAV of 4 million while Thibs is still a head coach and the current team president was his former agent who dropped him, then the only answer is criminal conspiracy. It could only be explained if the Knicks were moving coke in Go Fast boats and drones and they needed Ntilikina to drag all that blow into France.

At least Interpol agents will feel safe at night. If Frank Ntilikina shoots at them in a firefight over Bolivian Marching Powder, odds are he'll miss.