Nalod wrote:What position is Randle? Offensively he is playing more of a sf/wing? He is not posting up. This "Point forward thing" is What?
Can he defend the SF?
Obi outside game keeps developing he stretches the floor.
Is this how Obi gets more minutes next season. Not staying he starts or finishes, but gets to 20 or so minutes with some over lap.

I always feel like Obi hangs on the perimeter because he doesn't know where else to go. Plays aren't being run for him, and when he is given the ball, he very deferentially throws it right back.

He's always moving though. Whether it's setting the high screen or running from one corner to the next. Shot goes up, he's running towards the rim. Feels wasted being a "stretch 4", but fully expect a big jump next year, coinciding with the coaching staff coming in with a more specific game plan for him, as well as Obi getting more comfortable looking for his own shot. He's got some nice moves down low. Always fun getting that peak behind the curtain.

He's going to be fine.

MaTT4281 wrote:

Nalod wrote:What position is Randle? Offensively he is playing more of a sf/wing? He is not posting up. This "Point forward thing" is What?
Can he defend the SF?
Obi outside game keeps developing he stretches the floor.
Is this how Obi gets more minutes next season. Not staying he starts or finishes, but gets to 20 or so minutes with some over lap.

I always feel like Obi hangs on the perimeter because he doesn't know where else to go. Plays aren't being run for him, and when he is given the ball, he very deferentially throws it right back.

He's always moving though. Whether it's setting the high screen or running from one corner to the next. Shot goes up, he's running towards the rim. Feels wasted being a "stretch 4", but fully expect a big jump next year, coinciding with the coaching staff coming in with a more specific game plan for him, as well as Obi getting more comfortable looking for his own shot. He's got some nice moves down low. Always fun getting that peak behind the curtain.

He's going to be fine.

LOL!

TripleThreat wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:
I always feel like Obi hangs on the perimeter because he doesn't know where else to go. Plays aren't being run for him, and when he is given the ball, he very deferentially throws it right back.

He's always moving though. Whether it's setting the high screen or running from one corner to the next. Shot goes up, he's running towards the rim. Feels wasted being a "stretch 4", but fully expect a big jump next year, coinciding with the coaching staff coming in with a more specific game plan for him, as well as Obi getting more comfortable looking for his own shot. He's got some nice moves down low. Always fun getting that peak behind the curtain.

He's going to be fine.

Obi "Ski Rack" Toppin doesn't know where to go because he's not a high IQ player and he has poor situational awareness. Look at Toppin and look at Xavier Tillman in comparison. Tillman doesn't have the same physical talent, but he understands where he's supposed to be and why he's supposed to be there and when.

The "safe pick" projected by Jon Giovany was Devin Vassell. Vassell likely won't be an All Star, but he brings more answers than questions. If you have a player that needs this condition or that condition or this team mate or this trade off or this consideration to be successful, you can understand that if the guy is the 22nd pick in your draft. You don't expect that from the 8th overall. You don't expect that from a player who is appreciably older that most others in his class and considered "mature" You don't expect that from a guy who was formerly touted as being immediately "pro ready"

I had a neighbor once who married a fat chick. She was fat when he met her. I lived near him long enough to see the entire process. From early meeting to dating to engagement to marriage. He was never happy she was fat. He wanted her to be thin. He though he could help her be thin. Is it crime to be a fat chick? No. But you don't marry a fat chick hoping she's going to magically stop being a fat chick and you wake up next to a thin chick. If you want thin women, how about doing something insane like starting off with only seeking thin women in the first place?

I said the same thing about Dolan. Why hire Phil Jackson, who has no front office experience, has enemies in the media and league, is going to phase in a complicated and controversial offensive system, and is pushing 70 with no long term future for the franchise? My point was clear - Why make things so much damn harder than it has to be? Hire someone trained for the job in the first place. How mother****ing hard was that?

Draft a player, no in the "Captain Save A Ho" mentality, but who already embodies most of what you want and need in a player. How hard is that?

Why must the Knicks persist in continuing to do things that make **** just plain harder than it needs to be?

Certainly no draft pick is expected to be an All Star in his first year, however Toppin looks really out of place, lost and there are big questions on whether he has an actual role somewhere in this league period.

Toppin is a ski rack that has always been fat their entire life but people want to imagine will one day be thin, if they wish it hard enough.

Look, the goal for everyone here is the same, we all love this team and want them to win and win big. Why in the world would you select a fundamentally flawed older zero defender whose long range shooting was questionable to translate to line up for your defense first coach?

I wanted Bey, but what was wrong with Vassell? He had a clear role in the league, he could defend, he had fundamentals, he's not going to light up a dunk contest but is someone going to argue that Vassell wouldn't help this team 10 times more than Toppin will in the coming playoffs?

Winning in the NBA is hard enough on it's own. Why persist in getting in your own way? Why make the simple so hard? It's not even some super wild secret deep in some dark cave. The league covets 3 And D wings the most. They are hard to find, expensive to keep and always useful everywhere on your team. And yet the Knicks had to get ****ing cute about it and draft a Ski Rack everyone wish was guzzling Slim Fast.

I don't get it. Probably because it makes no sense at all.

That was a whole lot of nonsense

But let us not forget the context in which Obi was drafted. Not only was he touted as a top 3-4 talent in the draft, who miraculously slipped to us, but PF was seen as an area of need for the NYK given the disappointing season Randle had had and many people (including myself) wanting to trade him. So Obi looked not only like the BPA but also a draft pick for need.

And to take the leaf out of TT's book of wisdom with the chapter on replacement value, as much as I liked Vassel, looks like we have found guys like Burks or Bullock in the NBA's scrap heap who provide the same value as he.

TripleThreat wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:
I always feel like Obi hangs on the perimeter because he doesn't know where else to go. Plays aren't being run for him, and when he is given the ball, he very deferentially throws it right back.

He's always moving though. Whether it's setting the high screen or running from one corner to the next. Shot goes up, he's running towards the rim. Feels wasted being a "stretch 4", but fully expect a big jump next year, coinciding with the coaching staff coming in with a more specific game plan for him, as well as Obi getting more comfortable looking for his own shot. He's got some nice moves down low. Always fun getting that peak behind the curtain.

He's going to be fine.

Obi "Ski Rack" Toppin doesn't know where to go because he's not a high IQ player and he has poor situational awareness. Look at Toppin and look at Xavier Tillman in comparison. Tillman doesn't have the same physical talent, but he understands where he's supposed to be and why he's supposed to be there and when.

The "safe pick" projected by Jon Giovany was Devin Vassell. Vassell likely won't be an All Star, but he brings more answers than questions. If you have a player that needs this condition or that condition or this team mate or this trade off or this consideration to be successful, you can understand that if the guy is the 22nd pick in your draft. You don't expect that from the 8th overall. You don't expect that from a player who is appreciably older that most others in his class and considered "mature" You don't expect that from a guy who was formerly touted as being immediately "pro ready"

I had a neighbor once who married a fat chick. She was fat when he met her. I lived near him long enough to see the entire process. From early meeting to dating to engagement to marriage. He was never happy she was fat. He wanted her to be thin. He though he could help her be thin. Is it crime to be a fat chick? No. But you don't marry a fat chick hoping she's going to magically stop being a fat chick and you wake up next to a thin chick. If you want thin women, how about doing something insane like starting off with only seeking thin women in the first place?

I said the same thing about Dolan. Why hire Phil Jackson, who has no front office experience, has enemies in the media and league, is going to phase in a complicated and controversial offensive system, and is pushing 70 with no long term future for the franchise? My point was clear - Why make things so much damn harder than it has to be? Hire someone trained for the job in the first place. How mother****ing hard was that?

Draft a player, no in the "Captain Save A Ho" mentality, but who already embodies most of what you want and need in a player. How hard is that?

Why must the Knicks persist in continuing to do things that make **** just plain harder than it needs to be?

Certainly no draft pick is expected to be an All Star in his first year, however Toppin looks really out of place, lost and there are big questions on whether he has an actual role somewhere in this league period.

Toppin is a ski rack that has always been fat their entire life but people want to imagine will one day be thin, if they wish it hard enough.

Look, the goal for everyone here is the same, we all love this team and want them to win and win big. Why in the world would you select a fundamentally flawed older zero defender whose long range shooting was questionable to translate to line up for your defense first coach?

I wanted Bey, but what was wrong with Vassell? He had a clear role in the league, he could defend, he had fundamentals, he's not going to light up a dunk contest but is someone going to argue that Vassell wouldn't help this team 10 times more than Toppin will in the coming playoffs?

Winning in the NBA is hard enough on it's own. Why persist in getting in your own way? Why make the simple so hard? It's not even some super wild secret deep in some dark cave. The league covets 3 And D wings the most. They are hard to find, expensive to keep and always useful everywhere on your team. And yet the Knicks had to get ****ing cute about it and draft a Ski Rack everyone wish was guzzling Slim Fast.

I don't get it. Probably because it makes no sense at all.

The analogy you attempted to make is a really poor one at best. Your assumption is that Obi is fundamentally flawed and has little to no usefulness in today's NBA. You are connecting Obi to what you describe as a "fat chick" and based on your analogy you seem to feel that "Fat Chicks" must also be fundamentally flawed based solely on appearances/personal tastes & desires of you and your neighbor and nothing else. Sorry, but it comes across as if written by a 12 year old or someone who may have issues with women in general.

Your point about Vassell is also pretty funny in that you state that 3 & D wings are hard to find and yet the Knicks found 2 pretty easily and at very reasonable salaries in the offseason. Point is, Vassell would be getting little to no burn behind Bullock and Burks and if he was taken instead of Obi you would likely be sitting here complaining about him as well.

Your point on Phil Jackson is also curious as he is no longer here - so why even make that point since we are basically 2 regimes removed. Why not focus on the present......Rose and company and how they fit in?

I with others here would like to see what Obi becomes before denigrating him in his rookie year as you are quick to do.

In your own words......."I don't get it, because it makes no sense at all"

Philc1 wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

MaTT4281 wrote:
I always feel like Obi hangs on the perimeter because he doesn't know where else to go. Plays aren't being run for him, and when he is given the ball, he very deferentially throws it right back.

He's always moving though. Whether it's setting the high screen or running from one corner to the next. Shot goes up, he's running towards the rim. Feels wasted being a "stretch 4", but fully expect a big jump next year, coinciding with the coaching staff coming in with a more specific game plan for him, as well as Obi getting more comfortable looking for his own shot. He's got some nice moves down low. Always fun getting that peak behind the curtain.

He's going to be fine.

Obi "Ski Rack" Toppin doesn't know where to go because he's not a high IQ player and he has poor situational awareness. Look at Toppin and look at Xavier Tillman in comparison. Tillman doesn't have the same physical talent, but he understands where he's supposed to be and why he's supposed to be there and when.

The "safe pick" projected by Jon Giovany was Devin Vassell. Vassell likely won't be an All Star, but he brings more answers than questions. If you have a player that needs this condition or that condition or this team mate or this trade off or this consideration to be successful, you can understand that if the guy is the 22nd pick in your draft. You don't expect that from the 8th overall. You don't expect that from a player who is appreciably older that most others in his class and considered "mature" You don't expect that from a guy who was formerly touted as being immediately "pro ready"

I had a neighbor once who married a fat chick. She was fat when he met her. I lived near him long enough to see the entire process. From early meeting to dating to engagement to marriage. He was never happy she was fat. He wanted her to be thin. He though he could help her be thin. Is it crime to be a fat chick? No. But you don't marry a fat chick hoping she's going to magically stop being a fat chick and you wake up next to a thin chick. If you want thin women, how about doing something insane like starting off with only seeking thin women in the first place?

I said the same thing about Dolan. Why hire Phil Jackson, who has no front office experience, has enemies in the media and league, is going to phase in a complicated and controversial offensive system, and is pushing 70 with no long term future for the franchise? My point was clear - Why make things so much damn harder than it has to be? Hire someone trained for the job in the first place. How mother****ing hard was that?

Draft a player, no in the "Captain Save A Ho" mentality, but who already embodies most of what you want and need in a player. How hard is that?

Why must the Knicks persist in continuing to do things that make **** just plain harder than it needs to be?

Certainly no draft pick is expected to be an All Star in his first year, however Toppin looks really out of place, lost and there are big questions on whether he has an actual role somewhere in this league period.

Toppin is a ski rack that has always been fat their entire life but people want to imagine will one day be thin, if they wish it hard enough.

Look, the goal for everyone here is the same, we all love this team and want them to win and win big. Why in the world would you select a fundamentally flawed older zero defender whose long range shooting was questionable to translate to line up for your defense first coach?

I wanted Bey, but what was wrong with Vassell? He had a clear role in the league, he could defend, he had fundamentals, he's not going to light up a dunk contest but is someone going to argue that Vassell wouldn't help this team 10 times more than Toppin will in the coming playoffs?

Winning in the NBA is hard enough on it's own. Why persist in getting in your own way? Why make the simple so hard? It's not even some super wild secret deep in some dark cave. The league covets 3 And D wings the most. They are hard to find, expensive to keep and always useful everywhere on your team. And yet the Knicks had to get ****ing cute about it and draft a Ski Rack everyone wish was guzzling Slim Fast.

I don't get it. Probably because it makes no sense at all.

That was a whole lot of nonsense

But it's slightly entertaining nonsense, isn't it?

So let's sum up.

Obi Toppin is a 4 year college player who ripped up his little section of the NCAA. He's an elite as **** athlete who set all sort of records in training camp for pure physicality. This, as you continually mention, Triple, is the NBA. Not too many humans on the earth who beat the **** out of an entire team in drills in the NBA while jumping through the gym into orbit. He, like everyone else, would have benefitted nicely from a lot of March Madness and a full summer league. Covid sucks.
He's defensively challenged, and like a lot of the physical freak specimens who enter the league as 20 somethings, his BB IQ is low because he obviously didn't need it to excel. Before now.

But guess the **** what? We hired a defensive hard as your third ex-wife's fake boobs defensive coach! Surely Thibs can take some moldable young, happier than a clam full of pig **** to be here kid and get him to figure out the fundamentals of playing crazed zombie defense, right? RIGHT??? The ****ing kid's running 10 second suicides or some such ****. His vertical is taller than KP's bouffant hairdo. And the kid already gets that it's about PUTTING THE BALL IN THE HOLE.

You used your standard, extremely well thought-out, logical stance on the blazing managerial cluster **** that was Phil Jackson. Interesting.

As stated elsewhere, you don't seem to think or mention that widdo Jimmie's current FO selections are in that same vein. Although they seem to have gravitated to making life not as simple as say, starting Ron Baker at PG, or signing Andre FoulLineAirBall Roberson to a team that was proposed in the pre-season not to be able to hit open bunnies, it may be that they possibly know more than you about Thibs' ability to mold a phyla of humans that are way, way above the pay grade of normal people.

I love the D we play under Thibs more than anyone, but your homeless man ski racks never lead anything in scoring. Maybe Leon and company saw a really, really poor man's Zion. Weirder things could happen when you have that many big brains in a room.

I'll now move on to one of the RJ threads and see how you explain/analogize that one away.

Philc1 wrote:That was a whole lot of nonsense...

Obi has the size to eventually transition to Center and he has looked faster on defense than expected after I was told since before the draft Obi couldn’t guard a Stop sign and clearly he’s capable of playing effective defense when he tries

Problem is Thibs’ system is all about defensive shot blocking Centers like Noah, Gibson, Mitch and Noel

The modern NBA "big man" is valuable if he can

1) Space the floor as the league has shifted into the modern "Space And Pace" style game
2) Defend the rim
3) Quarterback the entire defense

Toppin can do exactly none of this. His footwork isn't very good. His lateral movement is alarming for this level. I'll give him credit in that he's clearly working hard and trying out there. Sweat equity is not a problem here but everyone in the NBA is supposed to work hard - it's a requirement and a baseline standard and not some kind of mythical virtue.

How long would it take Toppin to become an effective small ball pivot in the modern game? If he can even do it at all. Maybe he can develop those skills enough to help his second team. The Knicks can spend the draft capital, the coaching, the growing pains, the roster spot, the value of the minutes given to eat those growing pains, to do what? Help the NEXT TEAM that Toppin is on? The Knicks are not designed to be some bitch boy farm team for some other NBA franchise.

I'm hearing some prime Amare Stoudamire rumblings. He's not STAT offensively. Not even close. And STAT played in an entirely different era where the inability to space the floor and the inability to defend the rim wasn't such a massive tax on the team's bottom line for winning games.

The problem is not Thib's system, the problem is the Knicks selected a big man who can't do the valuable and required things that modern NBA big men need to do to help their teams win basketball games.

You don't spend the 8th overall on a project where much of that "project" are basic fundamentals. If you want Obi Toppin to play center, have at it, because other teams will score at will all over him. If you thought Enes Kanter was horrible against the pick and roll, and he was probably Top 3 in the league's worst as pivots go, then what do you think Toppin will give up on the scoreboard?

jrodmc wrote:You locking this thread then?

Now? That's disrespectful to Obi. I feel Frank and Obi have at least 5 threads each with over 20 pages.

jrodmc wrote:You locking this thread then?

But it's interesting how there were about 10 people advocating for Randle after last season and about 100 claiming today that they did. If Obi develops into a really solid NBA player I have a feeling a lot of the naysayers will never fess up to their comments a year from now. Or they'll stick to their guns (because a lot of folks can't ever admit to being wrong) and will try to convince people that we're not really seeing what we're seeing from Obi.