Knixkik wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

xavier wrote:Jerami is a very good player, but I'm afraid you greatly underestimate what Detroit would ask for him. It’s a similar thing with other potential targets, teams will ask, and get, much more than some of you think.

If you are already going into a serious trade, then at the same time, not necessarily in one trade of course, you should target two players one of whom must be a passing PG. Now, can we put together two such packages and still have some players to play with the new ones? I'm honestly not sure. As I wrote, I'm afraid we're not there yet.

The problem is that our picks looked like a great trade bait at the beginning of the season. But the Knicks are on the verge of entering the playoffs and therefore our picks worth much less now. If we make a move and get good player, we will very likely enter the playoffs, but it also means that the picks no longer have any huge value as trade resources.

You’re probably right. He may cost way more. My intention was to figure out the best player we could get with Toppin and our Dallas picks. An upgrade that doesn’t drain us of everything. He was the guy I landed on that fit. I don’t see any others out there right now but I was intrigued at what s team like Detroit would want as they are in full rebuild mode. Like when we signed Marcus Morris knowing we would probably move him for an asset later. This feels like that but on a much larger scale. But maybe they feel like they can build around Grant. Who knows.

You never know. I think your logic is sound — consolidating some of our resources to upgrade SF and PG. There aren’t a ton of FAs that available that will be clear upgrades.

Yeah the free agent class isn't great. Guys who get thrown around like L Ball, No Powell, Danny Green etc are all good players, but how much of an upgrade are they over Bullock/Burks? Maybe a little, but not a lot. And on the other end of the spectrum we are going to be constantly thrown into speculation for Beal, LaVine etc with the assumption that it will cost a king's random. I feel like the best option is to grow internally and maintain cap space unless this type of in-between deal comes along. For the Knicks to take the next step, they will have to get a major free agent because a major trade just costs too much for a team a ways away from competing. Basically to me we can call Randle a star, Barrett and Quickley 2 potential future stars (or high level starters) and we need the next guy to come here for just money, no trade.

For the sake of this conversation, Grant to be was the obvious lesser costing choice. The other guy i landed on was Buddy Hield, but for all he would solve as far as shooting, we would lose plenty on the defensive end, so it's not as good of an option clearly.

Your not really committing to anything

On one hand you want to keep Cap Flex, but when some star becomes available you don't want to spend.

You keep talking about FA and the knicks haven't sign a decent FA since Amare and Allan Houston.

On one hand you say where not ready to make a big trade for a star, yet you say all we really need is another star (but only if he comes cheap)

Knixkik wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

xavier wrote:Jerami is a very good player, but I'm afraid you greatly underestimate what Detroit would ask for him. It’s a similar thing with other potential targets, teams will ask, and get, much more than some of you think.

If you are already going into a serious trade, then at the same time, not necessarily in one trade of course, you should target two players one of whom must be a passing PG. Now, can we put together two such packages and still have some players to play with the new ones? I'm honestly not sure. As I wrote, I'm afraid we're not there yet.

The problem is that our picks looked like a great trade bait at the beginning of the season. But the Knicks are on the verge of entering the playoffs and therefore our picks worth much less now. If we make a move and get good player, we will very likely enter the playoffs, but it also means that the picks no longer have any huge value as trade resources.

You’re probably right. He may cost way more. My intention was to figure out the best player we could get with Toppin and our Dallas picks. An upgrade that doesn’t drain us of everything. He was the guy I landed on that fit. I don’t see any others out there right now but I was intrigued at what s team like Detroit would want as they are in full rebuild mode. Like when we signed Marcus Morris knowing we would probably move him for an asset later. This feels like that but on a much larger scale. But maybe they feel like they can build around Grant. Who knows.

You never know. I think your logic is sound — consolidating some of our resources to upgrade SF and PG. There aren’t a ton of FAs that available that will be clear upgrades.

Yeah the free agent class isn't great. Guys who get thrown around like L Ball, No Powell, Danny Green etc are all good players, but how much of an upgrade are they over Bullock/Burks? Maybe a little, but not a lot. And on the other end of the spectrum we are going to be constantly thrown into speculation for Beal, LaVine etc with the assumption that it will cost a king's random. I feel like the best option is to grow internally and maintain cap space unless this type of in-between deal comes along. For the Knicks to take the next step, they will have to get a major free agent because a major trade just costs too much for a team a ways away from competing. Basically to me we can call Randle a star, Barrett and Quickley 2 potential future stars (or high level starters) and we need the next guy to come here for just money, no trade.

For the sake of this conversation, Grant to be was the obvious lesser costing choice. The other guy i landed on was Buddy Hield, but for all he would solve as far as shooting, we would lose plenty on the defensive end, so it's not as good of an option clearly.

Your not really committing to anything

On one hand you want to keep Cap Flex, but when some star becomes available you don't want to spend.

You keep talking about FA and the knicks haven't sign a decent FA since Amare and Allan Houston.

On one hand you say where not ready to make a big trade for a star, yet you say all we really need is another star (but only if he comes cheap)

I want to spend the money when they become a free agent, I just don't want to trade 3 FRP, 2 pick swap, and RJ or Quickley for Beal or LaVine.

I want to stay flexible until a star free agent is willing to come. We can't afford to trade the farm.

World Wide Wes and Rose were brought into attract top tier players to come to NY. Anyone running the team can trade the farm for one of these guys, but getting them as free agents is the goal. Until then i'd be willing to make a smaller trade for Grant or something along those lines and forgo any major trade for a Beal or LaVine until someone comes via free agency. The goal is to build on the Randle, Barrett, and Quickley core group, as I believe those are the 3 most important players going forward.

But we keep spinning our wheels in FA. 2 yrs ago 7 top tier FA were available and we didn't even get a meeting, last yr we couldn't NAB any of the 2nd tier FA, Even though we Had a SOLID FO.

We are obviously looking at 2 low picks this yr, more than likely out of the Lottery. You mean to tell me your not willing to sacrifice those picks for a ready made star

It's also a safe bet that any deal Leon and he's boy's make we are not going to get fleece

Knixkik wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

xavier wrote:Jerami is a very good player, but I'm afraid you greatly underestimate what Detroit would ask for him. It’s a similar thing with other potential targets, teams will ask, and get, much more than some of you think.

If you are already going into a serious trade, then at the same time, not necessarily in one trade of course, you should target two players one of whom must be a passing PG. Now, can we put together two such packages and still have some players to play with the new ones? I'm honestly not sure. As I wrote, I'm afraid we're not there yet.

The problem is that our picks looked like a great trade bait at the beginning of the season. But the Knicks are on the verge of entering the playoffs and therefore our picks worth much less now. If we make a move and get good player, we will very likely enter the playoffs, but it also means that the picks no longer have any huge value as trade resources.

You’re probably right. He may cost way more. My intention was to figure out the best player we could get with Toppin and our Dallas picks. An upgrade that doesn’t drain us of everything. He was the guy I landed on that fit. I don’t see any others out there right now but I was intrigued at what s team like Detroit would want as they are in full rebuild mode. Like when we signed Marcus Morris knowing we would probably move him for an asset later. This feels like that but on a much larger scale. But maybe they feel like they can build around Grant. Who knows.

You never know. I think your logic is sound — consolidating some of our resources to upgrade SF and PG. There aren’t a ton of FAs that available that will be clear upgrades.

Yeah the free agent class isn't great. Guys who get thrown around like L Ball, No Powell, Danny Green etc are all good players, but how much of an upgrade are they over Bullock/Burks? Maybe a little, but not a lot. And on the other end of the spectrum we are going to be constantly thrown into speculation for Beal, LaVine etc with the assumption that it will cost a king's random. I feel like the best option is to grow internally and maintain cap space unless this type of in-between deal comes along. For the Knicks to take the next step, they will have to get a major free agent because a major trade just costs too much for a team a ways away from competing. Basically to me we can call Randle a star, Barrett and Quickley 2 potential future stars (or high level starters) and we need the next guy to come here for just money, no trade.

For the sake of this conversation, Grant to be was the obvious lesser costing choice. The other guy i landed on was Buddy Hield, but for all he would solve as far as shooting, we would lose plenty on the defensive end, so it's not as good of an option clearly.

Your not really committing to anything

On one hand you want to keep Cap Flex, but when some star becomes available you don't want to spend.

You keep talking about FA and the knicks haven't sign a decent FA since Amare and Allan Houston.

On one hand you say where not ready to make a big trade for a star, yet you say all we really need is another star (but only if he comes cheap)

I want to spend the money when they become a free agent, I just don't want to trade 3 FRP, 2 pick swap, and RJ or Quickley for Beal or LaVine.

I want to stay flexible until a star free agent is willing to come. We can't afford to trade the farm.

World Wide Wes and Rose were brought into attract top tier players to come to NY. Anyone running the team can trade the farm for one of these guys, but getting them as free agents is the goal. Until then i'd be willing to make a smaller trade for Grant or something along those lines and forgo any major trade for a Beal or LaVine until someone comes via free agency. The goal is to build on the Randle, Barrett, and Quickley core group, as I believe those are the 3 most important players going forward.

But we keep spinning our wheels in FA. 2 yrs ago 7 top tier FA were available and we didn't even get a meeting, last yr we couldn't NAB any of the 2nd tier FA, Even though we Had a SOLID FO.

We are obviously looking at 2 low picks this yr, more than likely out of the Lottery. You mean to tell me your not willing to sacrifice those picks for a ready made star

It's also a safe bet that any deal Leon and he's boy's make we are not going to get fleece

Free agents haven't wanted to come here because we have been a bad team. The hope is that the improvements being made now plus the new front office's connections will steer free agents. Not putting all our eggs in that basket, but why trade everything for a non-top 10 player? Again, 10 years ago and people are still mad about the Melo deal, yet he was a top 10 player, age 26 who really wanted to be here, and we gave nothing of major value to trade for him. The cost is 3 times that for Beal or LaVine it seems.

The Reason we didn't get too far with Melo were injuries to Tyson, Melo, Amare, JR, Lin ect. The same thing could happen to anybody we sign because injuries have no age limit.

There are no top 10 players available. Even when we were a top 3 team in the east, Reggie, Jordan, GP, Malone wanted no parts of NY, we had to resort to Allan Houston.

So it's not just about the FO, most players don't Look at NY as the Place to be. Even back then we traded to get guys like Sprewell, LJ, Camby, Oak, Harper (all 2nd tier talent) and that turned out pretty well, and to be honest none of those players wanted to be here until they actually started playing here and felt the LOVE

Base on what I have seen in the last 25 yrs, i would never bank on any top 10 FA signing with New York

knicks1248 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:The thing about trading for Beal or LaVine is I don’t consider them anywhere near the level of player that melo was when we traded for him, and the cost today will be more. Looking back we gave up what of real value ? 1 first round pick, 1 pick swap and a couple of solid young players in Gallinari and Chandler ? Plus we got back Billups too. Compare that to going after a lesser star today in Beal and you’re talking 3 FRP, 2 pick swaps and probably 1 of our good young players in Barrett or Quickley who I feel are better prospects than Gallinari or chandler ever were. It’s a steep price to pay. If we are losing control over our picks and trading a top tier young player it has to be for a young game-charger who would eventually have a shot at being a top 10 player. Someone like Donavan Mitchell before he resigned or D Fox. The goal should be to use the extra picks and non-core youth to find a player who solidifies this as a playoff team. Then hope the true missing star player comes via free agency because they see a team that is 1 piece away from contender. Basically in proposing Toppin, Knox And 1 or both Dallas picks for the best possible player age 27 or younger that fits and Grant is a good example of that type of player.

The Talent and Coaching melo Had around him in Denver was 20x better than what Beal and Lavine have. They both are worth multiple 1st rnd picks with RJ.

What you also have to realize is that the BULLS are 1 game out of the 8th, and the Wiz are 2.5 games out of the 8th

Lavine is a star. However, it would take a whole bunch to get Bulls to trade him.

I’m not ready to say he’s a star. To me he’s a step below Randle at this point.

Multiple first round picks and Barrett needs to net a player a step up from Beal and lavine.

Like Who, an I'm talking realistically, because at the end of the day there isn't a single player in this league who can do it alone.

You Know what your getting when you sacrifice for any of those 2, you have NO idea what your getting in a draft pick or in FA, and we honestly have not done well in either area.

Had we drafted right (Knox #9 and Frank # 8) would have major value.

Knick1248, you are saying 2 different things in this thread. One I agree with and one I don’t. In your first post, you are describing the positive coaching surrounding Melo as opposed to Lavigne. In the next you are implying that Ntlikina and Knox were bad draft picks.

I am of the opinion that coaching and opportunity are essential to a draft pick’s success. I think both Knox and Ntlikina will be successful players in the NBA. I think their trajectory has been both stunted and overstated at the same time. One issue with getting extremely young players is that they need time to mature and develop strength-wise. Unfortunately, I do not think the Knicks previously spent the time developing and coaching these players. The coaching wasn’t effective. Where teams started jamming Knox early, the old FO did nothing and continued to tank. When teams jam IQ, the Knicks adjusted, brought in Rose, and got him back on track.

I think coaching and opportunity are highly correlated to success. You have to have a player willing to work. With Knox, I know he is willing to work. Not hearing enough about Ntlikina, but he seems injured. I’m inclined to see how these two play out...

Not too many stars win championship with the teams that drafted them, in fact you can them on your fingers.

BY the time knox and frank(if ever) are consistent impactful contributors they will be on they're 3rd team just like Jerami Grant, and 75% of role players (see our own randle, who the lakers traded for AD and won a championship ).

Right Now the East is wide open, there's no dynasty in making , there's no unbeatable team, no dominate team.

The knicks need at least one or 2 players now, thats playing on Randles level.

The knicks drafted Knox and frank while they were super young as if they were super talented like a LBJ, Kobe or KG.

Now you want to sit here and wait a total of 7 yrs to develop them, because they are 3 or 4 yrs away from impact ply

So in hindsight i could have traded those picks for a player playing AT KP or Melo's level at the time.

IN the last 20 years.........

Kobe with Lakers.
Wade in Miami
Pierce in Boston
Timmy in SAS
Kawahi in SAS
Steph/Klay in GSW
Kyrie in Clev
Toronto.........??

Wrong 1248. You do with drafting your star player. You just said you can’t win it alone so your point is valid but the base star you draft is the bedrock by which you have to keep to add pieces. Kobe needed Shaq, Wade needed Shaq then needed super friends, Pierce needed Garnet, etc..........
You have to draft and keep that player. Add via FA is important as is making the trade to complete. Maybe not in that order.
Clev Drafts Kyrie, Signs Lebron, uses Wiggins to get Love.......
Dirk on Dallas.
Lakers draft day traded Divacs for 18 year old Kobe at the 13th pick.....Team can use players to get picks. Kobe had a lot of question marks when he was drafted. And yes the coach always matters.

How many fingers you got?

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:The thing about trading for Beal or LaVine is I don’t consider them anywhere near the level of player that melo was when we traded for him, and the cost today will be more. Looking back we gave up what of real value ? 1 first round pick, 1 pick swap and a couple of solid young players in Gallinari and Chandler ? Plus we got back Billups too. Compare that to going after a lesser star today in Beal and you’re talking 3 FRP, 2 pick swaps and probably 1 of our good young players in Barrett or Quickley who I feel are better prospects than Gallinari or chandler ever were. It’s a steep price to pay. If we are losing control over our picks and trading a top tier young player it has to be for a young game-charger who would eventually have a shot at being a top 10 player. Someone like Donavan Mitchell before he resigned or D Fox. The goal should be to use the extra picks and non-core youth to find a player who solidifies this as a playoff team. Then hope the true missing star player comes via free agency because they see a team that is 1 piece away from contender. Basically in proposing Toppin, Knox And 1 or both Dallas picks for the best possible player age 27 or younger that fits and Grant is a good example of that type of player.

The Talent and Coaching melo Had around him in Denver was 20x better than what Beal and Lavine have. They both are worth multiple 1st rnd picks with RJ.

What you also have to realize is that the BULLS are 1 game out of the 8th, and the Wiz are 2.5 games out of the 8th

Lavine is a star. However, it would take a whole bunch to get Bulls to trade him.

I’m not ready to say he’s a star. To me he’s a step below Randle at this point.

Multiple first round picks and Barrett needs to net a player a step up from Beal and lavine.

Like Who, an I'm talking realistically, because at the end of the day there isn't a single player in this league who can do it alone.

You Know what your getting when you sacrifice for any of those 2, you have NO idea what your getting in a draft pick or in FA, and we honestly have not done well in either area.

Had we drafted right (Knox #9 and Frank # 8) would have major value.

Knick1248, you are saying 2 different things in this thread. One I agree with and one I don’t. In your first post, you are describing the positive coaching surrounding Melo as opposed to Lavigne. In the next you are implying that Ntlikina and Knox were bad draft picks.

I am of the opinion that coaching and opportunity are essential to a draft pick’s success. I think both Knox and Ntlikina will be successful players in the NBA. I think their trajectory has been both stunted and overstated at the same time. One issue with getting extremely young players is that they need time to mature and develop strength-wise. Unfortunately, I do not think the Knicks previously spent the time developing and coaching these players. The coaching wasn’t effective. Where teams started jamming Knox early, the old FO did nothing and continued to tank. When teams jam IQ, the Knicks adjusted, brought in Rose, and got him back on track.

I think coaching and opportunity are highly correlated to success. You have to have a player willing to work. With Knox, I know he is willing to work. Not hearing enough about Ntlikina, but he seems injured. I’m inclined to see how these two play out...

Not too many stars win championship with the teams that drafted them, in fact you can them on your fingers.

BY the time knox and frank(if ever) are consistent impactful contributors they will be on they're 3rd team just like Jerami Grant, and 75% of role players (see our own randle, who the lakers traded for AD and won a championship ).

Right Now the East is wide open, there's no dynasty in making , there's no unbeatable team, no dominate team.

The knicks need at least one or 2 players now, thats playing on Randles level.

The knicks drafted Knox and frank while they were super young as if they were super talented like a LBJ, Kobe or KG.

Now you want to sit here and wait a total of 7 yrs to develop them, because they are 3 or 4 yrs away from impact ply

So in hindsight i could have traded those picks for a player playing AT KP or Melo's level at the time.

IN the last 20 years.........

Kobe with Lakers.
Wade in Miami
Pierce in Boston
Timmy in SAS
Kawahi in SAS
Steph/Klay in GSW
Kyrie in Clev
Toronto.........??

Wrong 1248. You do with drafting your star player. You just said you can’t win it alone so your point is valid but the base star you draft is the bedrock by which you have to keep to add pieces. Kobe needed Shaq, Wade needed Shaq then needed super friends, Pierce needed Garnet, etc..........
You have to draft and keep that player. Add via FA is important as is making the trade to complete. Maybe not in that order.
Clev Drafts Kyrie, Signs Lebron, uses Wiggins to get Love.......
Dirk on Dallas.
Lakers draft day traded Divacs for 18 year old Kobe at the 13th pick.....Team can use players to get picks. Kobe had a lot of question marks when he was drafted. And yes the coach always matters.

How many fingers you got?

Regarding Kobe, that's where your scouting staff comes into play. If you have top flight scouts who are great at talent evaluation, you can find franchise players outside of the top five picks. Yeah, a bunch of other teams had questions about Kobe. Jerry West had NO DOUBT about Kobe.

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:

unstopaball12 wrote:Toppin, Payton and second round pick.

not a huge fan of giving up draft capitol at this point but I would do this. Would have to say yes if they asked for a first. Maybe Toppin an whichever FRP is lower + the Detroit pick back to them. I think they might have interest in Frank as well w/ Hayes there (who knows). Maybe 2 conditional FRPs (lower of the 2 Dal/NY drafts etc)

Grant is really good and is a long defender as well. Fits perfectly next to Randle/Mitch up front and is 26

I gather then RJ is slated to be a SG in this scenario?

I’m not even thinking Knicks trade Toppin after 31 games. I’m not even thinking about what to do with Randle beyond this season. LIkley you sit down after this one and figure out what he wants. Then figure out if we then want him at that price. Then review Toppins season and perhaps there is a reasonable projection to what he looks like. We also know our draft positions.
IM not bringing in a A stat stuffer (Grant) from a ****ty team thinking he can transform those numbers on a better team. Knicks are better than Pistons for now. Not a knock on Grant. Fine player.
As a fan I’d like to know from Payne or Bryant what they think of Knox and frank. I get they are on the bench sitting. This fan does not know if they are being shopped or being coached for another audition.
I’m not naive to think a break out is imminent by any stretch. Frank might be clambering to leave for an opportunity but at the same time is there one really available?

Here is my problem. With Knox at least. Every single person on this board knows that Knox's skill set is exactly what this team needs to make itself a fairly strong team. Knox is the perfect fit size, skill, age, and cost wise (free).

You can be 100000000% sure if idiots like us can see this, then a high level professional coach whose only goal is to win gamesand his high level assistant and developmental coaches know it.

Knowing this, if the man STILL can not earn playing time on this team there is a MAJOR problem that is not the team and not the coaches, but rest directly on the player.

Re: Frank.

I'm done. He went from medium high PG prospect to a low end 3 and D player with injury concerns. Given the fact that in my eyes he has done absolutely nothing to help himself, and the possible situation about blocking anything the Knicks wanted to do with him anywhere but PG, where there is smoke there is fire. I think they would be lucky to get a bottom 10 second round pick in a bad draft for him.

Welpee wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

EwingsGlass wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:The thing about trading for Beal or LaVine is I don’t consider them anywhere near the level of player that melo was when we traded for him, and the cost today will be more. Looking back we gave up what of real value ? 1 first round pick, 1 pick swap and a couple of solid young players in Gallinari and Chandler ? Plus we got back Billups too. Compare that to going after a lesser star today in Beal and you’re talking 3 FRP, 2 pick swaps and probably 1 of our good young players in Barrett or Quickley who I feel are better prospects than Gallinari or chandler ever were. It’s a steep price to pay. If we are losing control over our picks and trading a top tier young player it has to be for a young game-charger who would eventually have a shot at being a top 10 player. Someone like Donavan Mitchell before he resigned or D Fox. The goal should be to use the extra picks and non-core youth to find a player who solidifies this as a playoff team. Then hope the true missing star player comes via free agency because they see a team that is 1 piece away from contender. Basically in proposing Toppin, Knox And 1 or both Dallas picks for the best possible player age 27 or younger that fits and Grant is a good example of that type of player.

The Talent and Coaching melo Had around him in Denver was 20x better than what Beal and Lavine have. They both are worth multiple 1st rnd picks with RJ.

What you also have to realize is that the BULLS are 1 game out of the 8th, and the Wiz are 2.5 games out of the 8th

Lavine is a star. However, it would take a whole bunch to get Bulls to trade him.

I’m not ready to say he’s a star. To me he’s a step below Randle at this point.

Multiple first round picks and Barrett needs to net a player a step up from Beal and lavine.

Like Who, an I'm talking realistically, because at the end of the day there isn't a single player in this league who can do it alone.

You Know what your getting when you sacrifice for any of those 2, you have NO idea what your getting in a draft pick or in FA, and we honestly have not done well in either area.

Had we drafted right (Knox #9 and Frank # 8) would have major value.

Knick1248, you are saying 2 different things in this thread. One I agree with and one I don’t. In your first post, you are describing the positive coaching surrounding Melo as opposed to Lavigne. In the next you are implying that Ntlikina and Knox were bad draft picks.

I am of the opinion that coaching and opportunity are essential to a draft pick’s success. I think both Knox and Ntlikina will be successful players in the NBA. I think their trajectory has been both stunted and overstated at the same time. One issue with getting extremely young players is that they need time to mature and develop strength-wise. Unfortunately, I do not think the Knicks previously spent the time developing and coaching these players. The coaching wasn’t effective. Where teams started jamming Knox early, the old FO did nothing and continued to tank. When teams jam IQ, the Knicks adjusted, brought in Rose, and got him back on track.

I think coaching and opportunity are highly correlated to success. You have to have a player willing to work. With Knox, I know he is willing to work. Not hearing enough about Ntlikina, but he seems injured. I’m inclined to see how these two play out...

Not too many stars win championship with the teams that drafted them, in fact you can them on your fingers.

BY the time knox and frank(if ever) are consistent impactful contributors they will be on they're 3rd team just like Jerami Grant, and 75% of role players (see our own randle, who the lakers traded for AD and won a championship ).

Right Now the East is wide open, there's no dynasty in making , there's no unbeatable team, no dominate team.

The knicks need at least one or 2 players now, thats playing on Randles level.

The knicks drafted Knox and frank while they were super young as if they were super talented like a LBJ, Kobe or KG.

Now you want to sit here and wait a total of 7 yrs to develop them, because they are 3 or 4 yrs away from impact ply

So in hindsight i could have traded those picks for a player playing AT KP or Melo's level at the time.

IN the last 20 years.........

Kobe with Lakers.
Wade in Miami
Pierce in Boston
Timmy in SAS
Kawahi in SAS
Steph/Klay in GSW
Kyrie in Clev
Toronto.........??

Wrong 1248. You do with drafting your star player. You just said you can’t win it alone so your point is valid but the base star you draft is the bedrock by which you have to keep to add pieces. Kobe needed Shaq, Wade needed Shaq then needed super friends, Pierce needed Garnet, etc..........
You have to draft and keep that player. Add via FA is important as is making the trade to complete. Maybe not in that order.
Clev Drafts Kyrie, Signs Lebron, uses Wiggins to get Love.......
Dirk on Dallas.
Lakers draft day traded Divacs for 18 year old Kobe at the 13th pick.....Team can use players to get picks. Kobe had a lot of question marks when he was drafted. And yes the coach always matters.

How many fingers you got?

The better question is how many stars drafted in the top five stayed with their team and won rings? I remember making this point in the tank-a-thon discussion. Kobe was drafted 13th, Steph 9th, Klay 11th, Pierce 10th, Dirk 9th, Kahwi 15th. The point being, you don't have to tank and pray for the #1 pick to acquire a franchise player. Yes, you need to acquire a franchise player to win championship but there are multiple ways to do it other than constantly tanking seasons hoping to get lucky in the draft.

Regarding Kobe, that's where your scouting staff comes into play. If you have top flight scouts who are great at talent evaluation, you can find franchise players outside of the top five picks. Yeah, a bunch of other teams had questions about Kobe. Jerry West had NO DOUBT about Kobe.

Good points. The logo did great. That he fell to 13th is why “Doubts” was used.
Frank until he can prove something is about worthless via trade at this point.
I hold hope for both he as Knox as they are knicks. Costs me nothing to do so.

xavier wrote:

joec32033 wrote:
Here is my problem. With Knox at least. Every single person on this board knows that Knox's skill set is exactly what this team needs to make itself a fairly strong team. Knox is the perfect fit size, skill, age, and cost wise (free).

You can be 100000000% sure if idiots like us can see this, then a high level professional coach whose only goal is to win gamesand his high level assistant and developmental coaches know it.

Knowing this, if the man STILL can not earn playing time on this team there is a MAJOR problem that is not the team and not the coaches, but rest directly on the player.

Re: Frank.

I'm done. He went from medium high PG prospect to a low end 3 and D player with injury concerns. Given the fact that in my eyes he has done absolutely nothing to help himself, and the possible situation about blocking anything the Knicks wanted to do with him anywhere but PG, where there is smoke there is fire. I think they would be lucky to get a bottom 10 second round pick in a bad draft for him.

Exactly. Instead of maximally developing your players and creating the conditions for them to find themselves in the best possible situation regarding their skillset, he Knicks lightly give up their players and think the grass is greener elsewhere. It’s amazing to me Knox hasn’t become at least a shooter specialist so far.

The problem with Ntilikina in the beginning was that he was seen as a PG, which he simply is not. It was similar with Shumpert. Neither of them are PG. I still think Frank could have been a great 3&D SG because I have the impression that he is not a bad shooter at all but the only problem is in his self-confidence and constantly changing positions.

I'm confused. Seems like you are agreeing with me then placing the blame on the team. That is the exact opposite of what I am doing. That may have been true in years prior. It isn't this year.

I am placing blame squarely on these 2 particular young players.

First I will make it quick with Frank. He is always hurt and Hahn said at one point he refused to fully commit to anything but being a full time PG.

On Knox, much deeper. He should be starting. His skill set dictates he should be starting for them. The fact he can't beat out NBA journeymen 3 years into his NBA career is a problem. I am pointing out how if us as fans can see that if Knox's skillset is what the starting unit and team in general needs, there is little to no doubt that THIS coach and his staff know it. The fact that Knox can't EARN his playing time after 3 years-there is still a learning curve but this long in he should be showing something.

Bottom line is if these players who BOTH have skills this team can utilize and would make the team better, and they still can't get on the floor, is not a coaching problem. It is a player problem. And don't say Thibs doesn't play young players. He was playing Mitch, is playing RJ, Quick, Obi (when he can).

Knox and Frank not playing rests directly on those player's shoulders.

martin wrote:

joec32033 wrote:

xavier wrote:

joec32033 wrote:
Here is my problem. With Knox at least. Every single person on this board knows that Knox's skill set is exactly what this team needs to make itself a fairly strong team. Knox is the perfect fit size, skill, age, and cost wise (free).

You can be 100000000% sure if idiots like us can see this, then a high level professional coach whose only goal is to win gamesand his high level assistant and developmental coaches know it.

Knowing this, if the man STILL can not earn playing time on this team there is a MAJOR problem that is not the team and not the coaches, but rest directly on the player.

Re: Frank.

I'm done. He went from medium high PG prospect to a low end 3 and D player with injury concerns. Given the fact that in my eyes he has done absolutely nothing to help himself, and the possible situation about blocking anything the Knicks wanted to do with him anywhere but PG, where there is smoke there is fire. I think they would be lucky to get a bottom 10 second round pick in a bad draft for him.

Exactly. Instead of maximally developing your players and creating the conditions for them to find themselves in the best possible situation regarding their skillset, he Knicks lightly give up their players and think the grass is greener elsewhere. It’s amazing to me Knox hasn’t become at least a shooter specialist so far.

The problem with Ntilikina in the beginning was that he was seen as a PG, which he simply is not. It was similar with Shumpert. Neither of them are PG. I still think Frank could have been a great 3&D SG because I have the impression that he is not a bad shooter at all but the only problem is in his self-confidence and constantly changing positions.

I'm confused. Seems like you are agreeing with me then placing the blame on the team. That is the exact opposite of what I am doing. That may have been true in years prior. It isn't this year.

I am placing blame squarely on these 2 particular young players.

First I will make it quick with Frank. He is always hurt and Hahn said at one point he refused to fully commit to anything but being a full time PG.

On Knox, much deeper. He should be starting. His skill set dictates he should be starting for them. The fact he can't beat out NBA journeymen 3 years into his NBA career is a problem. I am pointing out how if us as fans can see that if Knox's skillset is what the starting unit and team in general needs, there is little to no doubt that THIS coach and his staff know it. The fact that Knox can't EARN his playing time after 3 years-there is still a learning curve but this long in he should be showing something.

Bottom line is if these players who BOTH have skills this team can utilize and would make the team better, and they still can't get on the floor, is not a coaching problem. It is a player problem. And don't say Thibs doesn't play young players. He was playing Mitch, is playing RJ, Quick, Obi (when he can).

Knox and Frank not playing rests directly on those player's shoulders.

For me, I think you are spot on with Knox. Frank is just hurt and there is zero opportunity for him right now.

I personally think Frank has had opportunities. Then he gets hurt. Usually it ends up being the worst groin in the league. Or shows little to no improvement when he does play. The kid has talent, FIBA Frank showed us that. But somehow he was able to show it by making it through a few solid weeks of ball. He doesn't do that here. Hopefully he can somehow figure out how to translate his international game to the NBA. If not, he won't be the first player nor will he be the last whose game was better suited for international rules and not the NBA.

martin wrote:

joec32033 wrote:I personally think Frank has had opportunities. Then he gets hurt. Usually it ends up being the worst groin in the league. Or shows little to no improvement when he does play. The kid has talent, FIBA Frank showed us that. But somehow he was able to show it by making it through a few solid weeks of ball. He doesn't do that here. Hopefully he can somehow figure out how to translate his international game to the NBA. If not, he won't be the first player nor will he be the last whose game was better suited for international rules and not the NBA.

I think that Frank came into the league about 2 years too early, maybe even 3. At the NBA level you have to have some sort of bulk to your body and the personality to match what is going on at the level; Frank had neither.

Could be that his body just won't hold up - GS almost traded Steph Curry for those same reasons.

We don't even know how Frank got hurt and what the real deal is with his knee right now.

I agree. But the big difference with Curry's injuries is they knew what it was. Ankles. He had surgeries. I'm assuming special shoes.

How do you fix a bad groin?

Also, I'll be honest, I put a lot of stock in Hahn's insight on Frank only wanting to be a PG. It makes a little sense why the Knicks kept trotting him out there as a PG when it was obvious that his skills could be better used at the 2 or even the 3 sometimes and they never tried it..