Knickfury11 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:
Again I don't think Frank is competing with Payton and Smith for PG mins. Eventually Rivers will phase Smith out. And if Payton continues to play like this then Rivers and Quickley will end up phasing Payton out. But there is something to be said that some players can fail terribly yet get every opportunity on the court again and again.

Frank cannot be competing with Burks, Bullock or RJ for minutes. For the very simple reason that he cannot shoot. But he can replace Payton and DSJr on the court. Because they cannot shoot either. And neither brings superior ball-handling and passing skills relative to Frank, while Frank has more impact than either of them on defense.
To to put it differently: having Frank/Payton or Frank/DSJr on the court at the same time would be downright disastrous, while a Frank/Bullock or a Frank/Burks pairing might work okay.

Wasn’t he shooting really well towards the end of last season? Or I should say when Covid shut everything down. If I remember correctly he was nailing corner threes as a really high rate or something to that nature as well. The PGs skills he would need to develop given the makeup of the roster is greater than the ability to hit 3s and play defense and be a 2ndary ball handler.

He's actually a decent shooter who simply isn't shooting a lot. Paired with (Dotson last year), Quickly, Burks, or Rivers the shooting becomes complementary - let shooters shoot.

From the corner, he's the Dentist's younger brother.

What's most disingenuous about the Ntilikina narrative is that Thibs and staff claim to have magical teaching skills for DSJ, Payton, et al and not a word about picking any one thing that would improve Frankie's game contribution at PG. WTF? Why are wash-outs so much more salvageable than the guard who already has shut down Irving and Dontic and...

Its absurd.

fwk00 - you the truth man...

Thanks.

The NBA is one of the few professional enterprises that thinks nothing of compounding conflict of interest with competitive consequence.

The smell of Ntilikina being jerked around because of his agent or who drafted him, or where he went to school and so on is just nightmarish.

Like the Rolling Stones tune "You can't always get what you want (sometimes you get what you need)" says the coaching staff needs to be open minded enough to have the imagination that what they might ideally want isn't in the cupboard so make do.

The lie that Ntilikina could possibly be worse in practice than what we see with our own eyes from Payton, DSJ, Bullock and others is insulting.

Not only that but the fan base doesn't mind losing if we look like we are developing a likeable group of players. Who here owns a Payton jersey? DSJ? Bullock?....

Jesus. How self-evident can the disconnect between fans and team become? Miller had the team playing very well and in concert. I want that back.

fwk00 wrote:

Knickfury11 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:
Again I don't think Frank is competing with Payton and Smith for PG mins. Eventually Rivers will phase Smith out. And if Payton continues to play like this then Rivers and Quickley will end up phasing Payton out. But there is something to be said that some players can fail terribly yet get every opportunity on the court again and again.

Frank cannot be competing with Burks, Bullock or RJ for minutes. For the very simple reason that he cannot shoot. But he can replace Payton and DSJr on the court. Because they cannot shoot either. And neither brings superior ball-handling and passing skills relative to Frank, while Frank has more impact than either of them on defense.
To to put it differently: having Frank/Payton or Frank/DSJr on the court at the same time would be downright disastrous, while a Frank/Bullock or a Frank/Burks pairing might work okay.

Wasn’t he shooting really well towards the end of last season? Or I should say when Covid shut everything down. If I remember correctly he was nailing corner threes as a really high rate or something to that nature as well. The PGs skills he would need to develop given the makeup of the roster is greater than the ability to hit 3s and play defense and be a 2ndary ball handler.

He's actually a decent shooter who simply isn't shooting a lot. Paired with (Dotson last year), Quickly, Burks, or Rivers the shooting becomes complementary - let shooters shoot.

From the corner, he's the Dentist's younger brother.

What's most disingenuous about the Ntilikina narrative is that Thibs and staff claim to have magical teaching skills for DSJ, Payton, et al and not a word about picking any one thing that would improve Frankie's game contribution at PG. WTF? Why are wash-outs so much more salvageable than the guard who already has shut down Irving and Dontic and...

Its absurd.

fwk00 - you the truth man...

Thanks.

The NBA is one of the few professional enterprises that thinks nothing of compounding conflict of interest with competitive consequence.

The smell of Ntilikina being jerked around because of his agent or who drafted him, or where he went to school and so on is just nightmarish.

Like the Rolling Stones tune "You can't always get what you want (sometimes you get what you need)" says the coaching staff needs to be open minded enough to have the imagination that what they might ideally want isn't in the cupboard so make do.

The lie that Ntilikina could possibly be worse in practice than what we see with our own eyes from Payton, DSJ, Bullock and others is insulting.

Not only that but the fan base doesn't mind losing if we look like we are developing a likeable group of players. Who here owns a Payton jersey? DSJ? Bullock?....

Jesus. How self-evident can the disconnect between fans and team become? Miller had the team playing very well and in concert. I want that back.

Agreed, in addition to your point regarding disconnect between fans and team this could potentially cause negativity between players and staff / coaches etc.

I believe a successful pro team regardless what sport usually has a high level of unity. Team understanding / cohesion.

Knickfury11 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

Knickfury11 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

ESOMKnicks wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:
Again I don't think Frank is competing with Payton and Smith for PG mins. Eventually Rivers will phase Smith out. And if Payton continues to play like this then Rivers and Quickley will end up phasing Payton out. But there is something to be said that some players can fail terribly yet get every opportunity on the court again and again.

Frank cannot be competing with Burks, Bullock or RJ for minutes. For the very simple reason that he cannot shoot. But he can replace Payton and DSJr on the court. Because they cannot shoot either. And neither brings superior ball-handling and passing skills relative to Frank, while Frank has more impact than either of them on defense.
To to put it differently: having Frank/Payton or Frank/DSJr on the court at the same time would be downright disastrous, while a Frank/Bullock or a Frank/Burks pairing might work okay.

Wasn’t he shooting really well towards the end of last season? Or I should say when Covid shut everything down. If I remember correctly he was nailing corner threes as a really high rate or something to that nature as well. The PGs skills he would need to develop given the makeup of the roster is greater than the ability to hit 3s and play defense and be a 2ndary ball handler.

He's actually a decent shooter who simply isn't shooting a lot. Paired with (Dotson last year), Quickly, Burks, or Rivers the shooting becomes complementary - let shooters shoot.

From the corner, he's the Dentist's younger brother.

What's most disingenuous about the Ntilikina narrative is that Thibs and staff claim to have magical teaching skills for DSJ, Payton, et al and not a word about picking any one thing that would improve Frankie's game contribution at PG. WTF? Why are wash-outs so much more salvageable than the guard who already has shut down Irving and Dontic and...

Its absurd.

fwk00 - you the truth man...

Thanks.

The NBA is one of the few professional enterprises that thinks nothing of compounding conflict of interest with competitive consequence.

The smell of Ntilikina being jerked around because of his agent or who drafted him, or where he went to school and so on is just nightmarish.

Like the Rolling Stones tune "You can't always get what you want (sometimes you get what you need)" says the coaching staff needs to be open minded enough to have the imagination that what they might ideally want isn't in the cupboard so make do.

The lie that Ntilikina could possibly be worse in practice than what we see with our own eyes from Payton, DSJ, Bullock and others is insulting.

Not only that but the fan base doesn't mind losing if we look like we are developing a likeable group of players. Who here owns a Payton jersey? DSJ? Bullock?....

Jesus. How self-evident can the disconnect between fans and team become? Miller had the team playing very well and in concert. I want that back.

Agreed, in addition to your point regarding disconnect between fans and team this could potentially cause negativity between players and staff / coaches etc.

I believe a successful pro team regardless what sport usually has a high level of unity. Team understanding / cohesion.

My suspicion is that there's a cohort of players who think they're the straw that stirs the drink. Randle, Payton, and maybe a few others might have a private club and pattern of play that conflicts with integrating a broader game vision.

These guys are placeholders like the idiot holding a space in a hospital emergency parking lot. They aren't even smart enough to get out of the way for more important things.

Our veterans are not only technically veterans but also more invested as players hanging on by the skin of their teeth. It keeps the youngins constantly treading thin ice and screws with their development.

fwk00 wrote:

martin wrote:

fwk00 wrote:The smell of Ntilikina being jerked around because of his agent or who drafted him, or where he went to school and so on is just nightmarish.

I'll never understand how anyone can believe that

Coaches need to win or get better or they lose their jobs.

Is there a thought that they check in with the GM and be like "who do you like and who should I not play? Did you draft them and if not, should I just not play that player?"

We getting into conspiracy theory level assumptions

Thibs is a straight shooter, hard nosed coach. You got to do what is asked of you. You got to perform. End of story

I would love to agree with you.

But the Kentucky full house is disturbing. The resigning of Payton was and is disturbing (makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER).

And for a guy who supposedly likes to watch film, one would think picking up where Miller left off would be more of a priority than recreating Fizdale's school of dross.

Take a look at Hahn's post game facebook chat. Hahn looked suicidal when talking about this last game. (Yes, he's no Ntilikina fan but...).

Its inconceivable that a coach sees potential in DSJ that he doesn't see in Ntilikina even as a temporary bridge to someone more suited.

Look, I don't expect wins with this early schedule but what we're subjected to leads exactly where? Randle stat heaven? Let's build around Bullock? The Knicks get abused like rag-dolls out there.

But don't try Frankie. Uh, ah. *That* would be uglier than this clustermuck.

Really?

After last night Frank should start tonight

BRIGGS wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

martin wrote:

fwk00 wrote:The smell of Ntilikina being jerked around because of his agent or who drafted him, or where he went to school and so on is just nightmarish.

I'll never understand how anyone can believe that

Coaches need to win or get better or they lose their jobs.

Is there a thought that they check in with the GM and be like "who do you like and who should I not play? Did you draft them and if not, should I just not play that player?"

We getting into conspiracy theory level assumptions

Thibs is a straight shooter, hard nosed coach. You got to do what is asked of you. You got to perform. End of story

I would love to agree with you.

But the Kentucky full house is disturbing. The resigning of Payton was and is disturbing (makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER).

And for a guy who supposedly likes to watch film, one would think picking up where Miller left off would be more of a priority than recreating Fizdale's school of dross.

Take a look at Hahn's post game facebook chat. Hahn looked suicidal when talking about this last game. (Yes, he's no Ntilikina fan but...).

Its inconceivable that a coach sees potential in DSJ that he doesn't see in Ntilikina even as a temporary bridge to someone more suited.

Look, I don't expect wins with this early schedule but what we're subjected to leads exactly where? Randle stat heaven? Let's build around Bullock? The Knicks get abused like rag-dolls out there.

But don't try Frankie. Uh, ah. *That* would be uglier than this clustermuck.

Really?

After last night Frank should start tonight

I know it's early but if Frank doesn't play again tonight I am going to make some mental notes about Thibs as a coach. Id rather see that little PG we have play, whatshisface Harper.

Maybe, just maybe, He is giving Payton and DJSJ enough rope to hang themselves so that he can bury them on the bench for the rest of the season and not have to hear from everyone that he never gave them a chance. And then we can experiment. Frank, Harper ,whoever else we can find in the G league.

martin wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

martin wrote:

fwk00 wrote:The smell of Ntilikina being jerked around because of his agent or who drafted him, or where he went to school and so on is just nightmarish.

I'll never understand how anyone can believe that

Coaches need to win or get better or they lose their jobs.

Is there a thought that they check in with the GM and be like "who do you like and who should I not play? Did you draft them and if not, should I just not play that player?"

We getting into conspiracy theory level assumptions

Thibs is a straight shooter, hard nosed coach. You got to do what is asked of you. You got to perform. End of story

I would love to agree with you.

But the Kentucky full house is disturbing. The resigning of Payton was and is disturbing (makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER).

And for a guy who supposedly likes to watch film, one would think picking up where Miller left off would be more of a priority than recreating Fizdale's school of dross.

Take a look at Hahn's post game facebook chat. Hahn looked suicidal when talking about this last game. (Yes, he's no Ntilikina fan but...).

Its inconceivable that a coach sees potential in DSJ that he doesn't see in Ntilikina even as a temporary bridge to someone more suited.

Look, I don't expect wins with this early schedule but what we're subjected to leads exactly where? Randle stat heaven? Let's build around Bullock? The Knicks get abused like rag-dolls out there.

But don't try Frankie. Uh, ah. *That* would be uglier than this clustermuck.

Really?

I dont understand much of what you wrote. Literally no clue what Kentucky or the opinion of Hahn has to do with anything.

Look, when one of the Knicks broadcast team looks and sounds depressed after a game it "has something to do with" the losing. Hahn is one of the few MSM sportscasters who shares a pulse with the fan base and wears his Knicks allegiance on his sleeve. In other words he's a bit of the canary in the coalmine when it comes to how the Knicks are doing.

To you this is irrelevant and that's fine.

My Kentucky concern is that the FO is organized as a childcare center for Kentucky basketball players almost exclusively. When I look at the roster, it could use a more talented diversity of origins. Again, to you - nbd, to me it smacks of an echo chamber with many blind spots.

Payton is here. He should be a solid 3rd or 4th PG off the bench. I can understand bringing Quickly off bench instead of starting him, there is some merit to that, agree with it or not.

Thibs is telling us DSJr and Frank have not beaten out Payton, no and's, if's, or but's. I'm guessing there are certain things Thibs wants his point guards to do and also to NOT do, they have not met that threshold.

After you pick one of Frank or DSJr to play minutes, you have to give one of those guys a chance; you can't get into a play one guy, yank him, play the next guy rotisserie game by game or even in same game necessarily, it's bad for everyone.

Knicks have not decided to just cut DSJr so they are going to give him a last chance and see what you got. You got to play him or cut him; that's the place he is in.

Yep. Payton is here. And he's proven to be worse than worthless. He's untradeable in the short term. He might be worth just cutting - he's a waste of time and a distraction at this point.

Thibs may well be telling DSJ and Frank that they haven't -cough- "beaten out" Payton based on an empirically measurable set of observable metrics. To my eye, whatever those metrics are don't seem to be working during active game time.

So let's rephrase this to make more sense of it.

What the games are telling Thibs is that anyone who can bounce a basketball in practice is more likely to succeed at playing PG than Elfrid Payton is.

And if Thibs is sensitive enough to get this message he might want to reevaluate the metrics he's applying to DSJ and Frank.

And yes its true that either DSJ or Frank should just start in this string of very difficult games. Its a perfect tryout period with plausible deniability for a coach to say that the stretch of games wasn't very winnable anyway should the tryouts prove a bust.

I'm all for giving players a 'chance' but I don't understand why DSJ is on this team at all. Whatever imagined advantages he might have once displayed are long gone and basketball was never a passion so there's that.

That leaves Frank who is part of a FO sensory deprivation experiment in which he is expected to improve being a point guard by being denied actual game minutes over a sane period of time in which to do it in.

Frank fired Rose.

Woody was fired by Phil.

Kentucky coaches think he's from Africa.

Thibs thinks DSJ has a future.

Enough said.

martin wrote:

fwk00 wrote:The smell of Ntilikina being jerked around because of his agent or who drafted him, or where he went to school and so on is just nightmarish.

I'll never understand how anyone can believe that

Coaches need to win or get better or they lose their jobs.

Is there a thought that they check in with the GM and be like "who do you like and who should I not play? Did you draft them and if not, should I just not play that player?"

We getting into conspiracy theory level assumptions

Thibs is a straight shooter, hard nosed coach. You got to do what is asked of you. You got to perform. End of story

I mean yeah. We know the history with Thibs. He isn't going to play young players just because they're young. Something that's going to be good for the culture is guys earning time. It isn't a conspiracy theory that Smith and Frank, guys who have done literally nothing in the NBA, can't make a rotation. The Knicks actually don't have a PG in their top 7 MPG guys and we see stretches where they just go PGless because none of the 3 can contribute and Thibs is the 3rd coach in a row who likes none of them.

The pattern of who is being played matches the pattern of who the better guys are in the healthy position groups. When everyone's healthy, Rivers and Quickley are playing thee point, Bullock, Barrett, Knox and Burks are playing the wing minutes and Randle Robinson and Toppin are playing the frontcourt minutes with Noel as a body for when Mitch gets in foil trouble.

fwk00 wrote:

Knicksfan wrote:Is this thread a joke?

If we only have a decent PG and he is injured, of course we will play with no PG.

Can’t believe how low have Payton and DSJr fallen that Burks gets time at PG. DSJr might be my biggest disappointment because Payton is a backup at best.

If there is justice in the world, the Mavs pick turns into a lottery pick this season because nobody expected DSJr to turn into absolutely nothing.

Is this post a joke?

I absolutely expected DSJ to turn into nothing.

We have a winner! Next up, lottery numbers, please.

I don’t think anyone expected DSJr a star or even a starter, but not even a viable backup option is a very sad turn of events.

When Frankie is in games, Knicks win.

HofstraBBall wrote:

fwk00 wrote:So far, so good.

When Frankie is in games, Knicks win.

Don't forget...Bullock shot 56% from 3. Payton scored 14 with 7 assists and 8 rebounds a plus 11. Randle a triple double.
Knox 14 points in 16 minutes and a plus 14. But Franks 16 minutes made the difference?

Miller figured this out last year as well.

Frankie's game adds chemistry. He shuts down their offense and opens up ours.

Its a pattern - not absolute but indicative.