Development is a process, it's not about throwing non-swimmers into a deep ocean because they could doggy paddle for 8 minutes against GLeaguers in a preseason game.

Keep the unit together as best you can. Make them prove it against both better teams and over a 10-20 game haul. When ready, let them take the next step.

Start that lineup immediately and they get killed over and over and development is slower. Let them build continuity and confidence. Let the other guys take their lumps again the starters from other team.

This way you also avoid internal team disruption. If I'm Burkes or whomever and am killing it and Knox gets the start, FUCK THAT. Generally speaking, you can't just start that many guys willy-nilly.

Have you'all never played team sports before?

HofstraBBall wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:C-Robinson
F Toppin
F Knox
G Barrett
G Quickley

Earned by execution and assertive play on both ends

Agree. That’s the lineup I would go with to start the season on 12/24

Come on man. Who do you think is running the Knicks. A twelve year old? You really think a NBA coach is going to bench his vets for kids that played well in one pre season quarter vs scrubs? He will go with the guys that have produced (Albeit at unimpressive levels). have NBA experience and who have had more than 1 game of sample size. Don't get me wrong. I am hoping Quck, Knox and Toppin turn out to be beasts but what you are suggestion is just not going to happen on any NBA team. Btw, You do realize that the same players you are advocating for are probably the ones that have the most to lose if they are thrown into a season opener starting lineup. Knox, Toppin, Robinson already have have enough pressure on them to play well. Quick, Toppin are here for rookie contracts. They just need to focus on continuing to developing. Hopefully they will be much better players when we finally add some solid pieces in the years to come.

Starting line up will and should be Payton, Burks, Barrett/Bullock, Randle, Noel. If the young kids come in and play well they will be able to stay in and get the minutes you say they deserve. Right now I see MR as back up, Toppin, Knox, Frank/Qucikley, Smith Jr/Rivers/Quickley. But get ready to be further disappointed for a Thibs rotation that usually includes only 8 or 9. Which means probably Noel, MR, Randle, Rivers Toppin, Burks, Barrett and either Bullock/Smith Jr. or Frank spelling the remaining minutes. Depending on their play. I do hope Quick gets in their as well. But like I said, Thibs is known for 8 or 9 meaning some of the players we are seeing in the pre season will probably not be included. Especially as the season is in its 15 to 20th game and he has seen enough to determine who those 8 or 9 will be.

Dead wrong

Philc1 wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:C-Robinson
F Toppin
F Knox
G Barrett
G Quickley

Earned by execution and assertive play on both ends

Agree. That’s the lineup I would go with to start the season on 12/24

You can't be serious

That line up would get Thibs fired, and put Leon on the hot seat.

Really? One would think this line up would get him fired

Noel basically zero offense
Randle spin city turnover
Burks only shooter
Rj not a shooter
Payton no shot

That line up should get a coach fired, that line up gives you zero spacing and constant bricks that line up is the reason we will get blown out by any playoff bound team unless the goal is to tank for Cade.

Honestly those vets on any good team would be bench players so what’s the problem with having them in that role for us?

If we can get the youth to click those vets off the bench would be nice plus none of the vets have a future here other then this year .

Randle is a 6th man
Payton is a bench pg
Burks is a back up 2
Noel is a back up c

They should be played in that role.

Thibs is going to end up the next Larry Brown if he continues to spin the wheels with crappy veterans like Payton, Bullock and Randle

If Thibs does nothing but play the kids not only will the Knicks win more games Thibs has a built-in excuse if they lose. He’s just developing young talent

I dunno. I mean, everyone looked good last night, but Randle had 8 assists. He certainly looks a bit out of control when trying to show off some dribble/spin skills, but for all my barking about him, he has been playing pretty well.

Bullock seems to be doing well also. I mean, I know he won’t shoot 75% from 3 every night, but other teams are gonna have close out the 3 when he is on the floor.

I normally like Payton. Quickley is outplaying him in pre-season. But he isn’t worthless.

Even DSJ has shown some improvement. He needs confidence and an outside shot, but he had like 4 steals earlier this week. There is defensive effort there.

I think Thibs is building a team where guys are giving better effort than in years past.

That starting lineup of IQ/Barrett/Bullock/Randle/Robinson

The KK/Bullock battle will likely be won by Knox eventually, but there is no reason KK and Toppin can’t light up the second unit for a bit. Get some mojo.

Simplest answer is that I like the lineup better when IQ is on the floor. If teams adjust to him, we will see how he adapts. If he adapts. He looks like a student of the game and a gym rat. With skill. I like his chances.

I turned off the game last night in the 4th quarter. It wasn’t the knicks, but cav’s were hard to watch. Can’t remember the last time I did that. Turned off a game because the Knicks were up so much.
While I’d rather be on the up side of a blow out my enthusiasm is tempered because the competition.
Quickly does get in the rotation and smith does not based on a 4 game sample if that is the qualifier. Rivers will get a chance for minutes. This is where it gets messy and hard decisions are made.

Nalod wrote:Amazing this Cav’s team minus Drummond was worse than it was Wednesday. Knicks played good but how good?
Cav’s played bad but how bad?
Quickly played well but how bad was the Defense on him?
We played Detroit twice and Cav’s twice and venture to say both will be in the lottery.

I turned off the game last night in the 4th quarter. It wasn’t the knicks, but cav’s were hard to watch. Can’t remember the last time I did that. Turned off a game because the Knicks were up so much.
While I’d rather be on the up side of a blow out my enthusiasm is tempered because the competition.
Quickly does get in the rotation and smith does not based on a 4 game sample if that is the qualifier. Rivers will get a chance for minutes. This is where it gets messy and hard decisions are made.

It’s hard for me to imagine that IQ didn’t outplay Elf for the starting spot, not just DSJ’s minutes. The team just looks better when they can’t collapse the floor like they can on Elf.

I can see Elf starting, if only because they want to keep confidence for the young players high, but it will be hard to take floor spacing away from the guys once they have had a taste.

BRIGGS wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:C-Robinson
F Toppin
F Knox
G Barrett
G Quickley

Earned by execution and assertive play on both ends

Agree. That’s the lineup I would go with to start the season on 12/24

Come on man. Who do you think is running the Knicks. A twelve year old? You really think a NBA coach is going to bench his vets for kids that played well in one pre season quarter vs scrubs? He will go with the guys that have produced (Albeit at unimpressive levels). have NBA experience and who have had more than 1 game of sample size. Don't get me wrong. I am hoping Quck, Knox and Toppin turn out to be beasts but what you are suggestion is just not going to happen on any NBA team. Btw, You do realize that the same players you are advocating for are probably the ones that have the most to lose if they are thrown into a season opener starting lineup. Knox, Toppin, Robinson already have have enough pressure on them to play well. Quick, Toppin are here for rookie contracts. They just need to focus on continuing to developing. Hopefully they will be much better players when we finally add some solid pieces in the years to come.

Starting line up will and should be Payton, Burks, Barrett/Bullock, Randle, Noel. If the young kids come in and play well they will be able to stay in and get the minutes you say they deserve. Right now I see MR as back up, Toppin, Knox, Frank/Qucikley, Smith Jr/Rivers/Quickley. But get ready to be further disappointed for a Thibs rotation that usually includes only 8 or 9. Which means probably Noel, MR, Randle, Rivers Toppin, Burks, Barrett and either Bullock/Smith Jr. or Frank spelling the remaining minutes. Depending on their play. I do hope Quick gets in their as well. But like I said, Thibs is known for 8 or 9 meaning some of the players we are seeing in the pre season will probably not be included. Especially as the season is in its 15 to 20th game and he has seen enough to determine who those 8 or 9 will be.

Dead wrong

Bout which part? The part that a professional FO/Coaching staff should not make decisions after ONE preseason game like fan forum armchair GM?
The part that you have to take into consideration that the coach making the decisions has a history of preferring vets? Or the part you can't give up on proven vets (Bullock shot 85%) last night because of one game.

I do give you credit for the endless "Denzel Valentine" type confidence on all the guys you think will crush it given small sample sizes. Wont bring up any of the many and accuse you of being "Dead Wrong" though. However, think Quicks overall play has made it tough for Thibs to start Payton and he HAS to be at least the back up PG to start the season. Shooting 60% from 3 was great but more importantly Quicks energy, fast pace, maturity, savvy and alpha type attitude is exactly what we have been looking for. The type of play and attitude I thought Smith Jr. would bring but never did. So I admit I was dead wrong about him being a PG. He has clearly shown that he is our best chance at being a long term solution. I really was impressed by his ability to hold the defender on his hip in traffic and ability at drawing fouls like a vet. Kid played like a top 5 draft pick last night. Think the most important compliment for Quicks is that the team looked better when he was at the point.

Knox also had a great shooting night and I think made a strong case for being the stating 3. Considering as Thibs often says, he has also done it consistently in practice. And given his age and draft commitment.

Hoping this keeps going and Toppin steps up as well in the same way. As always, we have to keep things in perspective. It is a long season. I am supper excited by what I saw last night but know "Consistency" is the key to success.

HofstraBBall wrote:

FrenchFreak wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Briggs. Question. Bullock, Burks, Rivers have shown for several years to be PRO players that are good players. We just signed two of them. Do you think it is a good move to get them going and give them a shot to get back into playing form after being out for over 9 months? Considering they are the guys you just signed to improve the team?

None of those three are the future of the team. They are being paid less combined that Portis was paid to be a back up last year. They are here to fill roster spots- we still aren’t even at the payroll minimum- and to push the young guys by setting an example. With or without them this is a lottery team so why not play the kids?

Good point. And I have said many times before that the point of this year should be to evaluate our young assets. Was also disappointed when they re signed Payton and preferred we go with our young PG's. The post was about some thinking a Pro Coach is going to give up on so called proven players just to play young assets. That is usually what the end of the year is or if a team is out of contention. Thibs and most coaches are going first with the players that give them the best chance to win. And that is usually vets. Fans always prefer to play their favorite hopefuls. Fact is until last night, Knox had yet to show anything substantial. Toppin has shown he has potential and is a good dunker and Quicks played well ONE quarter and shot 16%. No good coach is going to bench ALL his vets for fan hopefuls in the same position. Can say however, that Knox and Quicks showed last night they might be the ones to give Thibs the best chance of winning. Hoping they keep it up.

Same here.

Bringing back Payton and still being stuck with Randle are my two disappointments of this offseason. I’m cool with having the young guys playing behind legit NBA starters. I just don’t think those two guys qualify. In fact I think Payton, Burks, Bullock, Randle, and Noel looks like a fairly average second team. We’re just missing a first team at this point because the young guys aren’t there yet either. That said, I at least enjoy watching the young guys play.

EwingsGlass wrote:
Objectively, Hofstra, your positions come across as a real coach’s position. Perhaps a bit devoid of the hopefulness most of us have in the youthful upside. If you were “wrong”, on a small sample size, Quickley showed a bit more promise as the floor general than you were willing to give him. The idea that he played in HS instead of college in the 3 guard Wildcat lineup. It’s an aspect of him we hadn’t seen, so you presumed it did not exist.

Most of us presumed he had some skills and any ball handling could be supplemented by Barrett. I think your Payton/Quickley assessment will be wrong over the course of the season. I don’t think Payton has Quickley’s intelligence or upside or outside shot. I still like him but not next to Barrett. 2 games against Darius Garland does not a Hall of Famer make. But I don’t like Payton/Burks/Barrett/Randle/Noel. The argument that they are 25 and 26 year old “vets” -journeyman vets—- doesn’t really temper my expectations/hope for the youth.

Where you were right was the Randle/Toppin. I think a lot of us made Randle the culprit last year instead of floor spacing. His carelessness with the ball made him an easy target. He’s been well conditioned, making plays, and clearly focused on his passing. He outplayed Toppin for the starting spot. You expected this. While the rest of us saw him as blocking Toppin with his spin o’rama. He is the best player on this team, if a little out of control. Toppin is gonna have to earn those minutes.

Except for Randle, I don’t see any Vet/Youth position battle that truly favors the Vet. I think lineup synergy will be controlling more than experience. That all vet SL sucks because only Burks can shoot.

Agree. And good post. My view on Quick was educated optimism. And mostly about rational decision making in the pre season. But yes, I had NO idea this kid can play like this or handle the PG position as he did last night. Was impressed by so many things. From what I saw last night, if he keeps it up, he has to be the starting PG as he is a long term piece. Of course some educated caution is still maintained as it was the third game of the pre season against weaker competition. But super excited about what he showed. Also confident Toppin will do the same. If so, Randle probably gets dealt at the half way point. As mentioned, things will take care of themselves with time. The evaluation of ALL our assets will continue and, I feel, set us up for real growth next year. Regardless, last night was a great night for Knick fans.