martin wrote:

Sambakick wrote:

Kemet wrote:We have only 4 preseason games .. Why didn't coach Thibs let the young-core players & rookies be Starters and the first backups in the first 3 preseason games to gain confidence before the regular season starts ???
Frank, RJ, Knox, Obi, MitchRob, 6th Man DSJ, Quickley, Bullock, Brazdeikis, Spellman.
I'm sure no Knicks fan would've been upset not seeing Randle, Payton, Noel, and Noel in the 3 preseason games.

Even that group needs some pre-season games to knock off the rust after the long layoff.
Thibs wants to win games and is using pre-season to get his team as ready as can be.
If you're waiting for Thibs to lose with rookie-contracts and D-leaguers this is gonna be torture for you.

By the way, I like Noel, and Noel.

So generic question to everyone:

We all know that Thibs wants to win games. EVERY coach wants to win games for any number of reasons, top of which is to save his own job.

Is there a general assumption that that's all Thibs knows to the detriment and neglect of everything else? That Thibs didn't walk into the head coaching job interview KNOWING he had a very young team that wasn't going to win games and needed development?

Maybe it's just a phrase everyone uses but the idea that Thibs is just a win-only coach and here to play certain vets or not play/develop the kids so that it can bump a few more W's is just weird to me. He knows the drill and situation. He's got a 5 year contract, not a 3-4 year one. His staff is filled out with developmental coaches. Read the tea leaves

Its a Covid season with a one week team training camp and only 2 pre season games have been played. Putting any coach in an impossible situation. At the same time, we haven't watch Knicks bball in like 9 months so we are just gonna talk about every detail and over dramatize everything at this moment due to pent up emotions that Knicks bball is back.

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:It doesn’t really matter who starts at PG given the options currently on the team. Cuz our style of offense which is similar to what Fiz was running. As well as the makeup of the team doesn’t do them any favors. Teams are gonna pack the paint and dare us to beat them with the 3. This will then regulate the players who have the ball in their hands the most to play against their strengths.

Guess they are waiting for an elite type off playmaker to adjust the offense to? Cuz that type of guard probably will demand different sets.

newyorknewyork wrote:Frank isn't dynamic with the ball. That's just not what he is. He like most on the team will play well with someone who actually is. He will do all the little things away from the ball and be one of the better players on the team on the defensive end of the court. And will also make extra passes yada yada yada. Unlike having multiple players on the court that need the ball to be effective and don't do much without it, which doesn't work.

The combination of offensive talent that create easy shots for others paired with the guys who do things without the ball but get good looks from the players who can effectively create with the ball. Has routinely been the formula for success in the NBA.

Payton - Needs ball to be effective, can be good defensively
Burks - Can knock down 3s and move the ball
RJ - Needs ball to be effective, does have potential defensively
Randle - Needs ball to be effective
Noel - Doesn't need ball to be effective

Smith - Needs ball to be effective
Frank - Doesn't need ball to be effective
Knox - Needs ball to be effective
Obi - Needs ball to be effective
Mitch - Doesn't need ball to be effective

Rivers - Needs ball to be effective
Bullock - Above average floor spacer

We don't have good balance

Good stuff. The Knicks have a major which comes first, Chicken/Egg dilemma that won't be fixed until trade or next draft (hopefully).

They dont have enough shooting. They don't have a wing that can break down defense or create for others while being a threat. Teams can just pack paint and will mostly be successful. Pretty much end of story.

Yup we don't have enough quality players that are effective without the ball especially on the wing & forward positions. And the players that do have the ball aren't elite enough to make the game easier for others offensively. For RJ & Obi we can say "at this stage".

While Pistons aren't the perfect model. Casey knows what wins in the NBA. And look at their targets. Doumbouya, Bey, Grant. Their forwards don't need the ball to be effective, have length, play strong defense and im sure they will work on them being able to knock down those 3s. They are hoping that Hayes becomes that elite playmaker who also provides that length. You see the vision and identity they are trying to establish.

Player like Jalen Green at the draft and they will could have a core in Casey's image that will be pretty tough

Your getting me depressed because you are 100% correct. Our roster is beyond flawed. I don't see a cohesive plan at all

Sangfroid wrote:The lineup is:
Frank PG
Burks SG
RJ SF
Randle PF
Nerlens C

Enough offense and defense to get us in, and keep us in the game.

Working on a 2nd unit, I'm leaning towards:

Payton
Quickley
Obi
Mitch
Who's the 2nd unit SF? Knox?

I want Frank and Burks in the starting backcourt

martin wrote:

Sambakick wrote:

Kemet wrote:We have only 4 preseason games .. Why didn't coach Thibs let the young-core players & rookies be Starters and the first backups in the first 3 preseason games to gain confidence before the regular season starts ???
Frank, RJ, Knox, Obi, MitchRob, 6th Man DSJ, Quickley, Bullock, Brazdeikis, Spellman.
I'm sure no Knicks fan would've been upset not seeing Randle, Payton, Noel, and Noel in the 3 preseason games.

Even that group needs some pre-season games to knock off the rust after the long layoff.
Thibs wants to win games and is using pre-season to get his team as ready as can be.
If you're waiting for Thibs to lose with rookie-contracts and D-leaguers this is gonna be torture for you.

By the way, I like Noel, and Noel.

So generic question to everyone:

We all know that Thibs wants to win games. EVERY coach wants to win games for any number of reasons, top of which is to save his own job.

Is there a general assumption that that's all Thibs knows to the detriment and neglect of everything else? That Thibs didn't walk into the head coaching job interview KNOWING he had a very young team that wasn't going to win games and needed development?

Maybe it's just a phrase everyone uses but the idea that Thibs is just a win-only coach and here to play certain vets or not play/develop the kids so that it can bump a few more W's is just weird to me. He knows the drill and situation. He's got a 5 year contract, not a 3-4 year one. His staff is filled out with developmental coaches. Read the tea leaves

If Thibs thinks he’s winning games using Payton and DSJ all game at PG he is seriously mistaken

HofstraBBall wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:It doesn’t really matter who starts at PG given the options currently on the team. Cuz our style of offense which is similar to what Fiz was running. As well as the makeup of the team doesn’t do them any favors. Teams are gonna pack the paint and dare us to beat them with the 3. This will then regulate the players who have the ball in their hands the most to play against their strengths.

Guess they are waiting for an elite type off playmaker to adjust the offense to? Cuz that type of guard probably will demand different sets.

newyorknewyork wrote:Frank isn't dynamic with the ball. That's just not what he is. He like most on the team will play well with someone who actually is. He will do all the little things away from the ball and be one of the better players on the team on the defensive end of the court. And will also make extra passes yada yada yada. Unlike having multiple players on the court that need the ball to be effective and don't do much without it, which doesn't work.

The combination of offensive talent that create easy shots for others paired with the guys who do things without the ball but get good looks from the players who can effectively create with the ball. Has routinely been the formula for success in the NBA.

Payton - Needs ball to be effective, can be good defensively
Burks - Can knock down 3s and move the ball
RJ - Needs ball to be effective, does have potential defensively
Randle - Needs ball to be effective
Noel - Doesn't need ball to be effective

Smith - Needs ball to be effective
Frank - Doesn't need ball to be effective
Knox - Needs ball to be effective
Obi - Needs ball to be effective
Mitch - Doesn't need ball to be effective

Rivers - Needs ball to be effective
Bullock - Above average floor spacer

We don't have good balance

Good stuff. The Knicks have a major which comes first, Chicken/Egg dilemma that won't be fixed until trade or next draft (hopefully).

They dont have enough shooting. They don't have a wing that can break down defense or create for others while being a threat. Teams can just pack paint and will mostly be successful. Pretty much end of story.

Yup we don't have enough quality players that are effective without the ball especially on the wing & forward positions. And the players that do have the ball aren't elite enough to make the game easier for others offensively. For RJ & Obi we can say "at this stage".

While Pistons aren't the perfect model. Casey knows what wins in the NBA. And look at their targets. Doumbouya, Bey, Grant. Their forwards don't need the ball to be effective, have length, play strong defense and im sure they will work on them being able to knock down those 3s. They are hoping that Hayes becomes that elite playmaker who also provides that length. You see the vision and identity they are trying to establish.

Player like Jalen Green at the draft and they will could have a core in Casey's image that will be pretty tough

Your getting me depressed because you are 100% correct. Our roster is beyond flawed. I don't see a cohesive plan at all

The bigger issue for me regardless of how we evaluate anyone on the current roster is that not many of these guys will be here in 3 to 5 years. Maybe not even next year. Anyone with realistic expectations will always focus on the players that are projected to stick 3 to 5 years. Whether rookies or FA's. Right now I only see RJ and maybe MR (if he can last more than 20 min a game) in that category. With Obi close behind but he has yet to prove anything. So regardless of if Burks can hit a three or if Randle can stop spin turnovers or if Frank can learn to be aggressive, we just do not have many long term pieces. I have a feeling that is what Rose is going to work on the most. Unfortunately, he did not add any this Off season. Except for Obi. So If Frank is starting is probably the lowest on the importance scale.

I am focusing on watching which pieces can improve and be part of the Knicks for the next three years. Seeing some young kids hustle. With no other expectations. Unfortunately, we are still not very good and 90% of the roster everyone is arguing about wont be here much longer. Including Frank, Dennis and Payton.

Will continue to be the same problem for the next batch of players brought in until they finally figure out how to balance the roster with pieces that fit each other. Allow players to be put in a position of strength rather than weakness. Also risk tanking the value of each player turning lotto picks into future 2nd round picks. While never really having the space for someone to breakout and or overachieve. Continually waiting for that one magic player to come save us.

Payton shouldn’t have been resigned especially with no long term plan for him. Doubt Thibs will bench him either but we will see on that. He doesn’t mesh well with the lack of shooting in the starting lineup and takes away mins from players we should be having a long look at this season which we are destined for lotto. Probably should have targeted Byron Forbs instead of both Payton and Rivers honestly with the options available this offseason.

GustavBahler wrote:If Frank gets the minutes some of you want. And he still cant crack double digits on ppg. Will you still believe in year 4 that Frank is a starting PG?

The way we have our team built, we are not a PG driven offense. We need a PG that will make the right play and move the chess pieces to the right positions. He also needs to be able to defend and rebound.

Now, if frank starts. The offense moves and we get open shots then I would say that is a success. What I do look for him in the offense is take the shots when you are open. If there is a better shot then pass the ball. I want him to penetrate when it is there. Right now our players looks confused on offense. Very Fiz like

NYKBocker wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:If Frank gets the minutes some of you want. And he still cant crack double digits on ppg. Will you still believe in year 4 that Frank is a starting PG?

Not sure about anyone else but I analyze positions by team construction. Are we building the team where the PG is the top scorer? Do you want him to be a game manager?

The way we have our team built, we are not a PG driven offense. We need a PG that will make the right play and move the chess pieces to the right positions. He also needs to be able to defend and rebound.

Now, if frank starts. The offense moves and we get open shots then I would say that is a success. What I do look for him in the offense is take the shots when you are open. If there is a better shot then pass the ball. I want him to penetrate when it is there. Right now our players looks confused on offense. Very Fiz like

Fair enough. How many teams have a starting PG who cant crack double digits? Historically, the ones I remember, were running the Triangle. If the PG cant generate enough offense, isnt enough of a threat. His teammates have to pick up the slack. Works when you have the GOAT. Or maybe the best tandem in NBA history. Not where we're at.

shinmen wrote:The thing is with Frank, it's a gamble. He may not develop enough offense to start in an NBA team. However if he does, the Knicks strikes gold. An elite defender with a good offense (Jrue brought back a lot of assets to nola) is worth a lot. I think that's why many knicks fan want Frank to start and get more than 18min a game.

If we endure the difficult developpment years of Frank and let him blossom on the next team, I'm gonna be furious.

Dragic did not exceed 10pts a game until his 5th season. Lowry until his 6th season. Conley by his 2nd but he was playing 32min a game. Jrue exceeded 14pts by his fourth season but was playing 35min a game.

What do they have to lose by giving Frank 30min? It's not as if Payton was leading us to the playoffs. Frank already gives you elite defense and the little things that help his teammates.

this is a quality post. (though i don't think minutes should be given)

but the larger point is true. it's a bit like investing. Sometimes you pick something and it goes sideways or down, and you have to have the stomach to stick through that (if you still believe). it's a fallacy to expect instant payoff. the KNicks dilemma is they're dealing from a position of weakness in which they can't just let those younger assets develop patiently. they need/want instant return. this has become all the more true as draft has turned to 18-20 year olds who need time.

my hope is the Knicks look to Denver as a model, just keep adding guys who can contribute. Some may emerge as leaders, stronger. but having a bunch of good guys on the team can yield great results too -- if they're team first, have their head screwed on straight.

SupremeCommander wrote:I want Frank to start because I want him to work out and I remember his 20/10 game...

that said, he doesn't set the table for others. He also can't create for himself or others when things get tough

Frank had a great no look pass in his toolbox, his rookie year, and a stutter step. Stopped using them both for the most part. Trying to get better.