fitzfarm wrote:
Again triple I don’t understand why your defending guys who took the easy way out... Jordan just physically beat every superstar without teaming up. He is the ultimate star and no one comes close . Jordan never teamed up because he didn’t need to he knew he could beat any team on any night.

There is no need to defend super stars for taking the ***** way to a chip .... at the end of the day they just couldn’t win on there own they weren’t mentally capable to carry a team they didn’t have the balls to handle the pressure. They needed superstar help.

Jordan, Ewing,Barkley, payton, Malone didn’t need to team up with super teams to make it to the chip they met Jordan and that was it. They are warriors Leduche and cupcake couldn’t do what those players did they needed superstar help

Did you even read the article? The salary structure created no practical pathway for players to team up in previous eras. If those players played today and under todays contract structure and CBA, they'd do the same thing. One thing that article didn't discuss was previous eras had four year college players. That meant players back then had more incentive to lock in long term early with their drafting team since their prime years in the league were shorter.

Including his Seattle year, the Thunder got 9 years of Durant for about 100 million total. They got his best years at the best possible price. He gave them an MVP and multiple 1st All NBA placements. The Thunder paid less in his five first seasons total than what Durant made to sit in Brooklyn this past season. You make it sound like Durant cheated the Thunder somehow. He earned his free agency. He paid his dues and moved onto another place to work. Should anyone here be stuck at their first job forever? Does that make them a loser if they pay their dues like most people do and then EARN the opportunity to make different choices?

Plenty of people in life take paycuts to work closer to home, spend more time with their kids, reduce their commute, find a work environment they like better, etc, etc. But Durant is immune to this?

David Stern said it best. He said he's sorry many fans will be disappointed but the league cannot operate in a purely socialist manner. He said, and it was fair, the draft process alone, is a big trade off for players. That it benefits the league and the individual teams, but you can't hold onto that benefit forever.

Jordan lost most of his freedom because he gambled on the NBA and he placed bets on every team except the Bulls. Which is why Stern told him he was stuck in Chicago until he retired. He only got a reprieve to play for the Wizards after the prime of his career and with Stern's blessing. Jordan couldn't team up with anyone and it's his own fault.

Fuck, do you know how many companies would kill to hire a guy who gives them 9 full years operating at the top 1 percent of the profession while only earning a fraction of his actual market worth while garnering his prime years?

The guy starts as a teenager and carries a team for nearly a decade with all his success and failures are on public display and somehow he's not mentally capable? The guy produced night after night after night. It wasn't just talent, he had to bleed like everyone else. Producing while teams were bracketing him defensively. Playing hurt. Playing exhausted. Playing mentally drained. Some of the guys here have probably used gear for sports. Let them tell you how tedious it is to cycle correctly and all the discipline it takes to maintain your body for this kind of high level performance.

This bull**** about Durant is ridiculous. OK he has a few moments of thin skin. If that's the worse anyone can say about him, I don't see that as horrible. You are going to not get everything right with that kind of celebrity. Again, he's not raping 13 year olds nor knocking up his teammates wives nor beating up guys in strip clubs

Your stance on Durant is just a parroted narrative used by the sports media to fuel cheap ratings and click bait because there isn't enough real basketball news to cover an annual media cycle in full. You've got this bizarre socialist/crowd sourcing mentality about the NBA. "NO, NO, you are free to do what you want! As long as it's what everyone else wants! And if you don't do that, you are a piece of ****!"

I have several opportunities post retirement to go into coaching or scouting or a front office starting at the entry level. I could have converted into sportswriting if I wanted to do it.I'm a good enough writer, no one here is going to argue that point. I'm probably a good enough analyst with my math background to have worked in MLB or the NBA as well given time. But I looked at the attrition and decided the juice wasn't worth the squeeze. I didn't blame Robert Smith for retiring early. Didn't blame Barry when he had enough of Detroit. I don't hold anything against Andrew Luck. Does that make a loser? Or mentally weak? If Durant wanted to do something different that would make him happy, so be it. Maybe he was tired of playing with Russell Westbrook and that's OK too. He earned it. He didn't cheat OKC out of a single thing. He didn't cheat the GSW out of a single thing. Maybe he got tired of bull**** in OKC like many here get tired of their day to day jobs? That just makes him human.

Dude, I got nothing against you, but you have found a way to make Reggie Fucking Miller look good on a Knicks board and said you respect a rapist in order to denounce a guy who gave 9 prime and elite years to his drafting team and didn't want to buy into your socialist/crowd sourcing type approval.

TripleThreat wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:
Again triple I don’t understand why your defending guys who took the easy way out... Jordan just physically beat every superstar without teaming up. He is the ultimate star and no one comes close . Jordan never teamed up because he didn’t need to he knew he could beat any team on any night.

There is no need to defend super stars for taking the ***** way to a chip .... at the end of the day they just couldn’t win on there own they weren’t mentally capable to carry a team they didn’t have the balls to handle the pressure. They needed superstar help.

Jordan, Ewing,Barkley, payton, Malone didn’t need to team up with super teams to make it to the chip they met Jordan and that was it. They are warriors Leduche and cupcake couldn’t do what those players did they needed superstar help

Did you even read the article? The salary structure created no practical pathway for players to team up in previous eras. If those players played today and under todays contract structure and CBA, they'd do the same thing. One thing that article didn't discuss was previous eras had four year college players. That meant players back then had more incentive to lock in long term early with their drafting team since their prime years in the league were shorter.

Including his Seattle year, the Thunder got 9 years of Durant for about 100 million total. They got his best years at the best possible price. He gave them an MVP and multiple 1st All NBA placements. The Thunder paid less in his five first seasons total than what Durant made to sit in Brooklyn this past season. You make it sound like Durant cheated the Thunder somehow. He earned his free agency. He paid his dues and moved onto another place to work. Should anyone here be stuck at their first job forever? Does that make them a loser if they pay their dues like most people do and then EARN the opportunity to make different choices?

Plenty of people in life take paycuts to work closer to home, spend more time with their kids, reduce their commute, find a work environment they like better, etc, etc. But Durant is immune to this?

David Stern said it best. He said he's sorry many fans will be disappointed but the league cannot operate in a purely socialist manner. He said, and it was fair, the draft process alone, is a big trade off for players. That it benefits the league and the individual teams, but you can't hold onto that benefit forever.

Jordan lost most of his freedom because he gambled on the NBA and he placed bets on every team except the Bulls. Which is why Stern told him he was stuck in Chicago until he retired. He only got a reprieve to play for the Wizards after the prime of his career and with Stern's blessing. Jordan couldn't team up with anyone and it's his own fault.

Fuck, do you know how many companies would kill to hire a guy who gives them 9 full years operating at the top 1 percent of the profession while only earning a fraction of his actual market worth while garnering his prime years?

The guy starts as a teenager and carries a team for nearly a decade with all his success and failures are on public display and somehow he's not mentally capable? The guy produced night after night after night. It wasn't just talent, he had to bleed like everyone else. Producing while teams were bracketing him defensively. Playing hurt. Playing exhausted. Playing mentally drained. Some of the guys here have probably used gear for sports. Let them tell you how tedious it is to cycle correctly and all the discipline it takes to maintain your body for this kind of high level performance.

This bull**** about Durant is ridiculous. OK he has a few moments of thin skin. If that's the worse anyone can say about him, I don't see that as horrible. You are going to not get everything right with that kind of celebrity. Again, he's not raping 13 year olds nor knocking up his teammates wives nor beating up guys in strip clubs

Your stance on Durant is just a parroted narrative used by the sports media to fuel cheap ratings and click bait because there isn't enough real basketball news to cover an annual media cycle in full. You've got this bizarre socialist/crowd sourcing mentality about the NBA. "NO, NO, you are free to do what you want! As long as it's what everyone else wants! And if you don't do that, you are a piece of ****!"

I have several opportunities post retirement to go into coaching or scouting or a front office starting at the entry level. I could have converted into sportswriting if I wanted to do it.I'm a good enough writer, no one here is going to argue that point. I'm probably a good enough analyst with my math background to have worked in MLB or the NBA as well given time. But I looked at the attrition and decided the juice wasn't worth the squeeze. I didn't blame Robert Smith for retiring early. Didn't blame Barry when he had enough of Detroit. I don't hold anything against Andrew Luck. Does that make a loser? Or mentally weak? If Durant wanted to do something different that would make him happy, so be it. Maybe he was tired of playing with Russell Westbrook and that's OK too. He earned it. He didn't cheat OKC out of a single thing. He didn't cheat the GSW out of a single thing. Maybe he got tired of bull**** in OKC like many here get tired of their day to day jobs? That just makes him human.

Dude, I got nothing against you, but you have found a way to make Reggie Fucking Miller look good on a Knicks board and said you respect a rapist in order to denounce a guy who gave 9 prime and elite years to his drafting team and didn't want to buy into your socialist/crowd sourcing type approval.

Hey man this is awesome and I appreciate all that you wrote and I get it. This is what ultimate knicks is all about.

I’m a fan man and as a fan Durant could have chosen a lot of places to go from the thunder and be the man. He could help a team battle to the chip. He chose a championship team already contending for the chip with 3 superstars already on the team. In my opinion That’s lame it ruined the suspense of the season everyone knew that the cavs and warriors were going to the chip... and they did every year Durant was on the warriors. And it wasn’t even close.

As much as I respect good work space and rights as it was durants right to go to golden state. It’s still lame in terms of competition. Because there was no competition. It was the cavs and warriors and then everyone else. As much as a player you could say not my problem it still ruined the game for the rest of the NBA.

I don’t care if it’s socialist of me I believe in free healthcare and free college I do think the nba should make it difficult for players to leave the team that drafted them . It’s fine if you want to leave but money wise your going to take a huge pay cut. Which in the long run shouldn’t matter for the stars because of endorsements is where the money is anyway not there annual NBA salary.

So again to reiterate I agree with what you said but It doesn’t excuse how lame it is. And I still respect the players who tried to beat the best (Jordan) in ewing ect . I know money talks but if Reggie Ewing and ect of the stars wanted to join forces they could have because endorsements would have covered there loses to create a super team. And they didn’t they wanted to beat each other not join forces to get the easy chip.

TripleThreat wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

As much as I respect good work space and rights as it was durants right to go to golden state. It’s still lame in terms of competition. Because there was no competition. It was the cavs and warriors and then everyone else. As much as a player you could say not my problem it still ruined the game for the rest of the NBA.

I do want to be totally fair about this in the perspective that matters for both of us. Both of us love the Knicks and want the Knicks to succeed.

A top heavy league where the talent stacks on a few teams creates a huge problem for the draft. Now you have teams that have no marketing anchor to prop up fan interest in the team after they lose their star player and if one team is collapsing, it hurts the profit of the entire league. So you get situations like Anthony Davis gifted to the Pelicans for their new ownership and losing Chris Paul. No other team had a chance at AD. Lots of lottery picks are gifts. Even Durant was a gift to Seattle as Stern needed the transition to OKC to succeed to justify his attempted strong arming of Seattle at large.

And draft "makeups" are bad for the Knicks because the first four picks are going to be slotted to carry collapsing teams. Since the Knicks are cash rich and sell out no matter what, the league has no incentive to help the Knicks with a very high pick. Or a clean draft.

The struggle I had was the league tried to change the tax line and cap line artificially after Durant signed with the Warriors, trying to ensure he wouldn't sign a long term deal there. There was no other purpose there than to try to give LeBron another ring. I struggle with the idea of the league and fans punishing a team who did things the way you hope teams would operate. It's like a punishment for Steph Curry being too boring. He'll help you win, but he won't sell you shoes like a Russ Westbrook, who most definitely is not helping you win.

Durant signing with the Warriors does have a ripple effect on our beloved Knicks draft position.

If the discussion point is parity, then movement of superstars is only one of the problems. Draft rigging is a problem. Officiating is a massive problem. The shoe brands and their influence on player movement is a problem.

OK, I want to be open about this, since we just both want the Knicks to be a good team again and win.

What is your solution to this problem? How would you help teams keep their star players while keeping freedom of movement available for veterans who have earned their freedom?

One radical suggestion I discussed with someone at MIT Sloan was if all 30 teams removed their salary structure. Give the NBPA their total share of the BRI and let them formulate how to divide it among players themselves. Then all players are owned by all teams. There's a new lottery every year and each team gets to draft based on serpentine rounds. The teams picking the first ten in year one must pick the last ten in year 2. Every team gets a shot to win the championship every year. Every fanbase gets a chance to see Durant or AD or Curry in their home uniform for at least one season or more. Teams out of the race can trade players for future pick swaps. All consolation teams play in their own secondary tournament for improved placement lottery balls for the next season. One year you might get Horford and Blake Griffin. Another year you might get Greek Freak and Harden. It removes bad contracts out of the equation. It removes talent scarcity out of the equation. You can't fire coaches as easily since players keep moving. It empowers GMs to actually have a chance to build a team every year. You don't have to worry about kissing a players ass or having him hold your team hostage. He's there one year and that's it. There's a very March Madness approach to this. It functionally removes the influence of shoe brands from the game itself. If the league wants to rig games for LeBron, he might be a Hawk or a Piston when it happens.

Interesting idea, TT. The downside is that there's no team left. What you get are yearly league games along the lines of college intramurals. They just happen to wear a legacy jersey.

I actually think the solutions is a lot more simple. Eliminate the Lottery altogether. With the salary cap and tax structure, teams cannot overindulge in signing eligible kids. Teams like the Knicks would no longer be held hostage to the NBA executives that have no interest in getting off their throat. Teams could sign as many as they could afford - who cares?

But the NBA has turned the draft into an entertaining hostage show. They parade their captives in and hold a slave market like celebration when they are told who their services belong to. If systemic racism had a marketing team, sports drafts would be a weekly show.

Uptown wrote:Never understood why its acceptable for GMs to trade players to whomever and wherever they want, but its frowned upon when players excersise their rights as free agents. I have zero problems with Lebron, KD or any budding superstar wanting to take their legacies into their own hands as opposed to hoping an inept GM can build a championship roster around them while dealing with a salary cap.

Not many people seem to have a problem when Ainge and McHale, 3 former teammates colluded on the KG trade to spark the original modern big 3. Lebron was not winning a chip or beating that Celts team with Boobie Gibson and MO Williams. Was he supposed to wait around for the GM to figure it out?

KD knew he couldn't win with Russ, eventhough an argument can be made that he was part of the reason they blew the 3-1 lead against the warriors.

BTW, Some players are drafted into great situations others not so much. Magic got drafted by the Lakers who already had the best player in the world. Bird was drafted by the Celts. If you look at most peoples to ten list of players, just about all of them have played for thd lakers, celtics or bulls.

And if you look at where all the great players played after they were functional, it was the Knicks.

So I called him weak at first, but that was harsh. He's a product of his nba experience and environment. He came into the league during the player collaboration era. So we can't hate the player, hate the game.

With the structure of the draft and how nba certain nba teams are left with the short stick, while GS just won a chip, now has the 2nd pick. But thats what drives the nba. Every sport needs a villain or two, which is how they keep a strong interest in the nba. If everybody had equal teams or equal number of picks, it wouldn't have the same affect.

Similar to systemic racism....This country was built on having an upper class and a lower class. And the system was designed to keep people in those different classes. Thats similar to the nba structure. Every era, the nba was dominated by a hand full of teams, beating up the lower / middle teams.

Nalod wrote:
-snip-

Why do we villify Durant so much? Cuz he went to GSW? Pushes back in media and perhaps led on he was coming to MSG? Shame on knicks for getting suckered into that! Dolan usually does not need help looking stupid but perhaps Mills got hooked and and we did not come off looking good!

Sorry Nalod, If Durant misled team officials then this too should be considered a Tampering charge by the league. The players have no right to be playing psych-op games with teams they decide to F' with. Durant was getting his money no matter where he went so no agent can claim they were ensuring competition for more money. This amounts to tampering with a team to keep it uncompetitive. Once he convinced the Knicks to empty their roster at a discount, where were the Knicks being dropped off? The answer is in the middle of a FA desert left to essentially die waiting for the next FA tease.

While Durant and Kyrie "chill" laughing their asses off.

The league needs to fix this shiit.

fwk00 wrote:

Nalod wrote:
-snip-

Why do we villify Durant so much? Cuz he went to GSW? Pushes back in media and perhaps led on he was coming to MSG? Shame on knicks for getting suckered into that! Dolan usually does not need help looking stupid but perhaps Mills got hooked and and we did not come off looking good!

Sorry Nalod, If Durant misled team officials then this too should be considered a Tampering charge by the league. The players have no right to be playing psych-op games with teams they decide to F' with. Durant was getting his money no matter where he went so no agent can claim they were ensuring competition for more money. This amounts to tampering with a team to keep it uncompetitive. Once he convinced the Knicks to empty their roster at a discount, where were the Knicks being dropped off? The answer is in the middle of a FA desert left to essentially die waiting for the next FA tease.

While Durant and Kyrie "chill" laughing their asses off.

The league needs to fix this shiit.

Nalod wrote:Why do we villify Durant so much?

I don't see any reason.

He gave Seattle/OKC a full 9 elite seasons. He didn't demand a trade, he didn't demand to take over the front office. He played hard and led that team for nearly a decade

When he went to the GSW, his stated goal was to win championships. He took less money to sign and left money on the table so the Warriors could have depth to better contend. He made it clear that since Curry, Thompson and Green were there a long time, it wouldn't be fair to ask them to give up money, if someone had to do it, it should be him for being new. He helped them win two rings in three seasons. I don't see him owing the GSW anything.

The Knicks had empty space because they drafted poorly for years and had no one to resign for big money and finally shed some bad contracts and avoided signing more bad contracts. They were going to have cleared space if Durant signed there or not. It's not like the Knicks dumped useful players attached with picks to clear that cap space. And I don't blame Dolan for having concerns wit the Achilles issue. It wouldn't have been a true max contract, it would have been a 2+1, with one year for full rehab. The Knicks also could not facilitate a functional sign and trade situation to get Durant's Bird Rights to NY.

The Nets were run better and in a better asset position. If the Knicks wanted Durant, then they should have done better in the five years prior to put themselves in a position to look as desirable as possible. I said it the day Phil Jackson was hired, it's not going to work and it will leave the Knicks in a position where they won't have the assets to strike if opportunity heads their way.

If Durant can be cited for anything, it's not shutting up. The media will twist his words and he doesn't do himself any favors, he takes the bait much of the time from the media.

The media will paint him the narrative that the league mandates, nothing he says will change that.

Nalod wrote:Not sure what is media hype and what was the real dissection. Sure we all read his agent was a knick fan. Sure we all read the rumors but there are two teams in NY. INfact, Uncle Nalod told you when Nets came and disclosed location of their practice facilty they'd be more "NYC" then knicks. Im not saying "Told you" but I am saying "Think"!
Now if there was any from the source incinuations to deliberatly deceive then you have a point. But what would be the point of it? Not like they got more money by doing this did they?
If knicks got "Jobbed" as you say then same on us, and perhaps might be why Mills was let go.
So no, not playing the "victim" card here. Im sure players and agents collude enough but not to the point of "Deception". What is the motivation? Make knicks look bad? Seems like they don't need any help at that!

Nalod, quite honestly I don't get it either. The story we all followed was that the Knicks were sad sacks with an inferior culture, Kyrie wanted the Nets and Durant went along, and so on.

Along the way, the culture got traded off, Atkinson fired, and the Nets look like a shell of what they were before the signings.

Now, along comes this subplot in which Durant NEVER wanted to join the Knicks - *THIS* after a few years of crazy speculation that escalated to the point that Dolan was convinced that the Knicks *had a chance*. And Durant never said, "Time out. Jim, nothing personal but NO."

This IS COLD. And you can be sure it wasn't a secret. So WTF was the point of all of that because it certainly wasn't just in fun. The Knicks entire roadmap was based on the pretense.

Given the 50ish year history of frustration, what kind of joke is this? There's a meanness that is just transcendent here.

And this is in addition to the players on loaded teams punching down at the Knicks when our position gets pushed down a notch or two. Honestly. This is professional retardation.