Nalod wrote:But remember the armchair GM has the benefit of hindsight!!! LOL
Dennis looked lost at times mostly on defense and perhaps crossed up on when to attack and when to playmake. There is no reason to draft a PG unless our FO is excited about someone. Since I don't have that answer then I can't promote if its a good idea. I like "take the best player available".
I doubt Dennis can go from what he was last year to that 18-6 starter but I'd like to see him come off the bench and light it up in that direction.
Nalod is not a "one guy is SG and the other a PG"........
But for damn sure Frank has to up his shooting % so all that other goodness can ooze into his game!!!

Agreed. Although do not think it is hard to fathom a kid that went 15/5 his first year to go 18/6 in his fourth, I would be happy if he duplicated that. But as mentioned, the point was that many on here would still be pushing the Frank over Smith narrative even if Smith had a 15/5 year.

Agree with BPA available philosophy. Just don't see the value in picking based on position when we have such a broad need for talent. If anything, one can say we need shooters more than we need a traditional PG.

HofstraBBall wrote:

Nalod wrote:But remember the armchair GM has the benefit of hindsight!!! LOL
Dennis looked lost at times mostly on defense and perhaps crossed up on when to attack and when to playmake. There is no reason to draft a PG unless our FO is excited about someone. Since I don't have that answer then I can't promote if its a good idea. I like "take the best player available".
I doubt Dennis can go from what he was last year to that 18-6 starter but I'd like to see him come off the bench and light it up in that direction.
Nalod is not a "one guy is SG and the other a PG"........
But for damn sure Frank has to up his shooting % so all that other goodness can ooze into his game!!!

Agreed. Although do not think it is hard to fathom a kid that went 15/5 his first year to go 18/6 in his fourth, I would be happy if he duplicated that. But as mentioned, the point was that many on here would still be pushing the Frank over Smith narrative even if Smith had a 15/5 year.

Agree with BPA available philosophy. Just don't see the value in picking based on position when we have such a broad need for talent. If anything, one can say we need shooters more than we need a traditional PG.

knicks1248 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Nalod wrote:But remember the armchair GM has the benefit of hindsight!!! LOL
Dennis looked lost at times mostly on defense and perhaps crossed up on when to attack and when to playmake. There is no reason to draft a PG unless our FO is excited about someone. Since I don't have that answer then I can't promote if its a good idea. I like "take the best player available".
I doubt Dennis can go from what he was last year to that 18-6 starter but I'd like to see him come off the bench and light it up in that direction.
Nalod is not a "one guy is SG and the other a PG"........
But for damn sure Frank has to up his shooting % so all that other goodness can ooze into his game!!!

Agreed. Although do not think it is hard to fathom a kid that went 15/5 his first year to go 18/6 in his fourth, I would be happy if he duplicated that. But as mentioned, the point was that many on here would still be pushing the Frank over Smith narrative even if Smith had a 15/5 year.

Agree with BPA available philosophy. Just don't see the value in picking based on position when we have such a broad need for talent. If anything, one can say we need shooters more than we need a traditional PG.

May the best player win. My particular observation with DSJ is that even when he was putting up numbers he was untradable in Dallas. He padded stats but he was not respected and maybe disliked more widely than advertised.

smh..then how did he land on the Knicks,

Dallas did get offers, they just like the knicks offer the best...

Did Cuban see a couple of suckers in Mills and Perry?

I don't think he did get traded for. He was fiscal ballast in a Dallas trade FOR Porky.

Probably the least of many evils.

knicks1248 wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Nalod wrote:But remember the armchair GM has the benefit of hindsight!!! LOL
Dennis looked lost at times mostly on defense and perhaps crossed up on when to attack and when to playmake. There is no reason to draft a PG unless our FO is excited about someone. Since I don't have that answer then I can't promote if its a good idea. I like "take the best player available".
I doubt Dennis can go from what he was last year to that 18-6 starter but I'd like to see him come off the bench and light it up in that direction.
Nalod is not a "one guy is SG and the other a PG"........
But for damn sure Frank has to up his shooting % so all that other goodness can ooze into his game!!!

Agreed. Although do not think it is hard to fathom a kid that went 15/5 his first year to go 18/6 in his fourth, I would be happy if he duplicated that. But as mentioned, the point was that many on here would still be pushing the Frank over Smith narrative even if Smith had a 15/5 year.

Agree with BPA available philosophy. Just don't see the value in picking based on position when we have such a broad need for talent. If anything, one can say we need shooters more than we need a traditional PG.

May the best player win. My particular observation with DSJ is that even when he was putting up numbers he was untradable in Dallas. He padded stats but he was not respected and maybe disliked more widely than advertised.

smh..then how did he land on the Knicks,

Dallas did get offers, they just like the knicks offer the best...

Did Cuban see a couple of suckers in Mills and Perry?

Absolutely Cuban knew he was robbing Mills and Perry. Not only was he getting KP he was getting rid of a horrible shoot first PG who can’t shoot

Luckily for us KP’s knees are totally shot and he doesn’t have 1/23rd the heart of Dirk

Philc1 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Our "solution" has to be able to handle more than 20 minutes a game. Knicks still dont know if that issue has been resolved. Frank's had groin issues since before his first game as a Knick. Missed a lot of games. Was having them before the season ended, this year.

Those numbers mean nothing if Frank cant keep the D honest. That remains to be seen. Id like to see how both Frank and DSJr spent their off time. Too much time will have passed when these guys come back, to put much stock in their plus/minus pre-pandemic. In front of crowds.

Investing another second in DSJ is Failzdale all over again. Stop the madness.

Frankie and Payton are on their way. Resign Dotson.

Package DSJ for a doorstop.

Thats silly. DSJs trade value couldnt be lower. Was a big part of the trade. The very least you do ia see if he is really 100 pct. Which he hasnt been in mind or body since he was traded.
If Smith jr exceeds expectations, you keep him. If the Knicks believe they can get a good deal for Smith jr, but the team is set at PG, trade him.

Your predictions about Frank are right now wishful thinking to say the least. Like DSJr, we have to see if Frank can bring some consistency to his game, his offense. We still dont know if either can stay healthy.

Silly. There is no overnight cure for a player whose trade value is circling the toilet. Increasing his trade value would mean throwing good minutes after bad. So what you are saying is play DSJ at the expense of Frankie (who keeps earning his keep) and whoever makes the team as well as the chance of losing early games that may be critical in a potentially shortened season on a player who has done nothing to EARN that consideration. NOTHING.

Even keeping him is a basketball sin. He would be taking a roster spot on a team that can't afford F-ups.

DSJ was just a tease in that trade. *Before the trade* Dallas shopped him to a giant 'No Thanks' from every team including the Knicks.

DSJ's *value* is as fiscal trade ballast. There are teams who might/could use him. We aren't that. He's a relatively inexpensive body who is whole.

That said, an idiot at 100% is still an idiot.

My predictions about *any* 3 -5 year PG is the same - that's when the fun begins - they know the league, they are in the game, they know their limitations and strengths, and so on. We have two such candidates, both of whom have fine futures. Nobody in their right mind throws that away on a lottery ticket.

So - best case - we have both Frankie and Payton AND a draft pick PG that insulates us from the health issue.

I know you'tr basing your argument purely on emotion because you're calling out DSJ for being a tease, while not acknowledging that Frank has been hands down the biggest tease on the team since Frank was drafted. Longest tenured Knick, biggest tease.

DSJr's first game as a Knick (with a bad back) was better than any game Frank has played healthy. They've both teased ua, but Smith has shown in Dallas, and briefly in NY, that he has a higher ceiling on offense.

1ts 100 pct stupid to trade a player at rock bottom value. Its a long way from his days averaging 16pts as a starter. Frank has yet to show he can crack double digits. Thats not hate, its a fact.

Its something that needs to be sorted out, before proclaiming him King of all PGs. In the meantime, Smith jr and Frank battling for minutes is a good thing. Competition is a good thing.

Edit: We traded JR when he was at rock bottom, had to include Shumpert to make it work. But he was the most toxic player in the league at the time. Not the deal with Smith jr.

I watched literally ever knick game last season. Maybe DSJ had some good games in 2018 when the Knicks were tanking and there was zero pressure but DSJ destroyed this team last year. No defense, turnovers up the @ss, couldn’t shoot - he was a worse version of Stephon Marbury

Has anyone that is vying for DSJR to not be traded for scraps disagreed with most of your statements?
However, do disagree that he "had some good games in 2018". Fact of the matter is had a very good first and second year as a rookie and second year guy at a very young age. He came over here after being told he was the future of a franchise but then pushed aside and had a very good second half with us and showed us what we are missing in terms of explosiveness at the PG position. Yet you ignore that(as some on here are)but rather focus on an injury plagued and tough 34 GAMES??

Look, no one is saying that he needs to fix a shot that is broken. Needs to improve on defense. And that he his play last year was definitely awful last year. We are just saying that if you take the preferential Frank treatment out of the equation, it is not wise to trade him at this low value and that the level of play and athleticism he has shown his entire life, should be a better indicator of his future potential.

It’s not just last season when DSJ was the nba’s worst +\- player. The Mavericks started winning almost immediately after getting rid of him

Shoot first PGs who shoot low percentage and play no defense kill NBA teams. Doesn’t matter the era. Marbury killed us for 5 years, Rod Strickland in the 90’s killed multiple franchises who were seduced by his stats, DSJ killed us last year and will continue to do so

Ah the good ole +/- numbers. Already mentioned the error in using those as a sole metric. One which I doubt GM's are using to deal guys. If so, that means we should probably deal most of our other guys for 2nd rounders. Again my point was that it is not a smart idea trading a 22 year old that had 15/5 his first two years for a second rounder? Your point is that you feel his play warrants it? Okay lets discuss that:

Mavs winning had more to do with a fellow named Luca than about Smiths play. Or else we could also say that it was probably due to Mathews being dealt. Or maybe because Jordan was dealt? Fact remains that if Luca was not drafted, Smith would not have been dealt and would probably still be their main building block. Secondly, the whole shoot first has been brushed aside since some where trying to make that claim when Smith was coming out of college. If you watched his games in 2018 with us, you would agree. If not, I think the 5 dimes per game averaged in his first 2 years contradicts your assertion. Is Frank considered "shoot never" or "Shoot first" player after averaging just 3 assists his first 3 years? I also don't see how he "Killed us" last year? He played 34 games. Many in which he played minimal minutes. Think the guys that played the most minutes and played the Knicks to such a ****ty record should be included in that claim. Are we trading those guys for 2nd rounders?

Look. We can sit here and arbitrarily list positives and negatives of all our guys on the roster. Fact is, that they all are not very good. They all have holes in their games. I am merely talking about value and what would be a sensible use of assets for the Knicks. For me, trading Randle, Smith, Frank etc for scraps is very bad use of those assets. I also don't understand the urgency in doing so. It is not like we are missing one piece in order to compete for a chip. So what is the rush and what is the harm of letting Smith, who has show much more potential then guys like Paytom or Frank and is at his lowest value, go out there and proof his worth? If he does not, then we move on. Same thing goes for Payton and Frank. Now if we are being offered a top draft pick or young elite player and they can facilitate that happening, I am all for it.

TripleThreat wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:Fact is, there was never a question regarding Smith playing ability. His only negative mark was the way he handled Luca coming in and the Mavs changing their plans on direction.

No one questioned his physical tool set and athleticism.

He makes poor decisions with the basketball. Basically going on strike/revolt against Cuban/Nelson/Carlisle didn't help the doubts about his decision making. His free throw shooting is abysmal. That's just indefensible for a guy with his limitations. He requires to be ball dominant but does not produce at a level to justify being ball dominant. Looking at DSJrs advanced stats isn't good at all, but he really breaks down when giving him the Mark I eyeball test. OK you can jump out of the gym, but where are your fundamentals?

If you aren't a good decision maker, you need to be a good player moving off the ball and be relentless moving off the ball. DSJr is both unwilling and incapable of being even an average off ball player.

The game moves too fast for him. He could overwhelm people at lower levels but in the NBA, all your flaws get weaponized against you.

If Rick Carlisle can't save you, then that's pretty damning, it means you can't be saved. He had a really good situation. Stable owner and franchise, good passionate fan base, elite coach and good team culture. Zero pressure to be the lead guy. All he had to do was work hard and fill a role. He didn't make the most out of Dallas so got sent to the leagues version of Siberia.

Job was here for DSJr to take it. He didn't. That's on him.

If we are discussing his 34 game season in 2019, I would absolutely agree with you about all your criticisms. His shot looked horrible. Probably one of the worst hitches I have ever seen. His lack of aggressiveness and explosion was contrary to what I saw his first two years and extremely disappointing. Was it due to injury? Maybe. However, I would disagree with your assertions if we are talking about his first year and a half in Dallas and half year with us in 2018. He was anything but overwhelmed with the speed of the NBA game nor was his decision making as bad as you stated. I said in previous post that the idea that the Mavs wanted to move on from Smith because of his lack of play or not meeting expectations in just not true. Most know the reason the Mavs moved in a different direction is that they drafted Luca, a ball dominant Point forward who turned out to be an incredible talent. As a result, they knew that they needed to surround him with more applicable complimentary pieces. Along came a pretty good one in KP. In terms of his handling of the fact the Mavs changed directions, I agree, which I also mentioned, Smith's handling was immature at best. Do however understand a 20 year old kid, who was told he was the face of the franchise a yer earlier, having trouble dealing with the situation properly.

As for all the weaknesses mentioned, which I agree last year there were many, it is safe to say if we took every player on the roster we would have just as long a list if not longer. Just do not think the 34 games, injury plagued year and emotional issues can change the fact that Smith put up very good numbers as a rookie and second year player. It does not change that he is just 22 and is incredibly athletic. But most of all, just feel that it is hasty and shortsighted to trade him for scraps. If so, we should be trading 90% of the roster. Especially after what we both agree was a horrible 34 game 2019. But okay, maybe someone can explain the urgency? Btw. It was known that prior to getting injured, he had impressed and was thought to have won the starting PG position in training camp. So there is that in terms of taking the job once available.

GustavBahler wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Our "solution" has to be able to handle more than 20 minutes a game. Knicks still dont know if that issue has been resolved. Frank's had groin issues since before his first game as a Knick. Missed a lot of games. Was having them before the season ended, this year.

Those numbers mean nothing if Frank cant keep the D honest. That remains to be seen. Id like to see how both Frank and DSJr spent their off time. Too much time will have passed when these guys come back, to put much stock in their plus/minus pre-pandemic. In front of crowds.

Investing another second in DSJ is Failzdale all over again. Stop the madness.

Frankie and Payton are on their way. Resign Dotson.

Package DSJ for a doorstop.

Thats silly. DSJs trade value couldnt be lower. Was a big part of the trade. The very least you do ia see if he is really 100 pct. Which he hasnt been in mind or body since he was traded.
If Smith jr exceeds expectations, you keep him. If the Knicks believe they can get a good deal for Smith jr, but the team is set at PG, trade him.

Your predictions about Frank are right now wishful thinking to say the least. Like DSJr, we have to see if Frank can bring some consistency to his game, his offense. We still dont know if either can stay healthy.

Silly. There is no overnight cure for a player whose trade value is circling the toilet. Increasing his trade value would mean throwing good minutes after bad. So what you are saying is play DSJ at the expense of Frankie (who keeps earning his keep) and whoever makes the team as well as the chance of losing early games that may be critical in a potentially shortened season on a player who has done nothing to EARN that consideration. NOTHING.

Even keeping him is a basketball sin. He would be taking a roster spot on a team that can't afford F-ups.

DSJ was just a tease in that trade. *Before the trade* Dallas shopped him to a giant 'No Thanks' from every team including the Knicks.

DSJ's *value* is as fiscal trade ballast. There are teams who might/could use him. We aren't that. He's a relatively inexpensive body who is whole.

That said, an idiot at 100% is still an idiot.

My predictions about *any* 3 -5 year PG is the same - that's when the fun begins - they know the league, they are in the game, they know their limitations and strengths, and so on. We have two such candidates, both of whom have fine futures. Nobody in their right mind throws that away on a lottery ticket.

So - best case - we have both Frankie and Payton AND a draft pick PG that insulates us from the health issue.

I know you'tr basing your argument purely on emotion because you're calling out DSJ for being a tease, while not acknowledging that Frank has been hands down the biggest tease on the team since Frank was drafted. Longest tenured Knick, biggest tease.

DSJr's first game as a Knick (with a bad back) was better than any game Frank has played healthy. They've both teased ua, but Smith has shown in Dallas, and briefly in NY, that he has a higher ceiling on offense.

1ts 100 pct stupid to trade a player at rock bottom value. Its a long way from his days averaging 16pts as a starter. Frank has yet to show he can crack double digits. Thats not hate, its a fact.

Its something that needs to be sorted out, before proclaiming him King of all PGs. In the meantime, Smith jr and Frank battling for minutes is a good thing. Competition is a good thing.

Edit: We traded JR when he was at rock bottom, had to include Shumpert to make it work. But he was the most toxic player in the league at the time. Not the deal with Smith jr.

I watched literally ever knick game last season. Maybe DSJ had some good games in 2018 when the Knicks were tanking and there was zero pressure but DSJ destroyed this team last year. No defense, turnovers up the @ss, couldn’t shoot - he was a worse version of Stephon Marbury

Has anyone that is vying for DSJR to not be traded for scraps disagreed with most of your statements?
However, do disagree that he "had some good games in 2018". Fact of the matter is had a very good first and second year as a rookie and second year guy at a very young age. He came over here after being told he was the future of a franchise but then pushed aside and had a very good second half with us and showed us what we are missing in terms of explosiveness at the PG position. Yet you ignore that(as some on here are)but rather focus on an injury plagued and tough 34 GAMES??

Look, no one is saying that he needs to fix a shot that is broken. Needs to improve on defense. And that he his play last year was definitely awful last year. We are just saying that if you take the preferential Frank treatment out of the equation, it is not wise to trade him at this low value and that the level of play and athleticism he has shown his entire life, should be a better indicator of his future potential.

It’s not just last season when DSJ was the nba’s worst +\- player. The Mavericks started winning almost immediately after getting rid of him

Shoot first PGs who shoot low percentage and play no defense kill NBA teams. Doesn’t matter the era. Marbury killed us for 5 years, Rod Strickland in the 90’s killed multiple franchises who were seduced by his stats, DSJ killed us last year and will continue to do so

You're going to have to explain to me how Frank can be at the very bottom of the league on offense, in multiple categories, since he was drafted. But one fraction of a season, Smith jr, with a bad back, among other issues. A relative handful of games played in part due to the passing of his Stepmother. Carries more weight.

Calling Smith jr a "shoot first PG" tells me you havent watched very many games with Smith jr in the lineup...anywhere.

Look up “Shoot first PG” in the encyclopedia a pic of Smith Jr is there next to Kyrie Irving. Only Irving is way better

Philc1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Our "solution" has to be able to handle more than 20 minutes a game. Knicks still dont know if that issue has been resolved. Frank's had groin issues since before his first game as a Knick. Missed a lot of games. Was having them before the season ended, this year.

Those numbers mean nothing if Frank cant keep the D honest. That remains to be seen. Id like to see how both Frank and DSJr spent their off time. Too much time will have passed when these guys come back, to put much stock in their plus/minus pre-pandemic. In front of crowds.

Investing another second in DSJ is Failzdale all over again. Stop the madness.

Frankie and Payton are on their way. Resign Dotson.

Package DSJ for a doorstop.

Thats silly. DSJs trade value couldnt be lower. Was a big part of the trade. The very least you do ia see if he is really 100 pct. Which he hasnt been in mind or body since he was traded.
If Smith jr exceeds expectations, you keep him. If the Knicks believe they can get a good deal for Smith jr, but the team is set at PG, trade him.

Your predictions about Frank are right now wishful thinking to say the least. Like DSJr, we have to see if Frank can bring some consistency to his game, his offense. We still dont know if either can stay healthy.

Silly. There is no overnight cure for a player whose trade value is circling the toilet. Increasing his trade value would mean throwing good minutes after bad. So what you are saying is play DSJ at the expense of Frankie (who keeps earning his keep) and whoever makes the team as well as the chance of losing early games that may be critical in a potentially shortened season on a player who has done nothing to EARN that consideration. NOTHING.

Even keeping him is a basketball sin. He would be taking a roster spot on a team that can't afford F-ups.

DSJ was just a tease in that trade. *Before the trade* Dallas shopped him to a giant 'No Thanks' from every team including the Knicks.

DSJ's *value* is as fiscal trade ballast. There are teams who might/could use him. We aren't that. He's a relatively inexpensive body who is whole.

That said, an idiot at 100% is still an idiot.

My predictions about *any* 3 -5 year PG is the same - that's when the fun begins - they know the league, they are in the game, they know their limitations and strengths, and so on. We have two such candidates, both of whom have fine futures. Nobody in their right mind throws that away on a lottery ticket.

So - best case - we have both Frankie and Payton AND a draft pick PG that insulates us from the health issue.

I know you'tr basing your argument purely on emotion because you're calling out DSJ for being a tease, while not acknowledging that Frank has been hands down the biggest tease on the team since Frank was drafted. Longest tenured Knick, biggest tease.

DSJr's first game as a Knick (with a bad back) was better than any game Frank has played healthy. They've both teased ua, but Smith has shown in Dallas, and briefly in NY, that he has a higher ceiling on offense.

1ts 100 pct stupid to trade a player at rock bottom value. Its a long way from his days averaging 16pts as a starter. Frank has yet to show he can crack double digits. Thats not hate, its a fact.

Its something that needs to be sorted out, before proclaiming him King of all PGs. In the meantime, Smith jr and Frank battling for minutes is a good thing. Competition is a good thing.

Edit: We traded JR when he was at rock bottom, had to include Shumpert to make it work. But he was the most toxic player in the league at the time. Not the deal with Smith jr.

I watched literally ever knick game last season. Maybe DSJ had some good games in 2018 when the Knicks were tanking and there was zero pressure but DSJ destroyed this team last year. No defense, turnovers up the @ss, couldn’t shoot - he was a worse version of Stephon Marbury

Has anyone that is vying for DSJR to not be traded for scraps disagreed with most of your statements?
However, do disagree that he "had some good games in 2018". Fact of the matter is had a very good first and second year as a rookie and second year guy at a very young age. He came over here after being told he was the future of a franchise but then pushed aside and had a very good second half with us and showed us what we are missing in terms of explosiveness at the PG position. Yet you ignore that(as some on here are)but rather focus on an injury plagued and tough 34 GAMES??

Look, no one is saying that he needs to fix a shot that is broken. Needs to improve on defense. And that he his play last year was definitely awful last year. We are just saying that if you take the preferential Frank treatment out of the equation, it is not wise to trade him at this low value and that the level of play and athleticism he has shown his entire life, should be a better indicator of his future potential.

It’s not just last season when DSJ was the nba’s worst +\- player. The Mavericks started winning almost immediately after getting rid of him

Shoot first PGs who shoot low percentage and play no defense kill NBA teams. Doesn’t matter the era. Marbury killed us for 5 years, Rod Strickland in the 90’s killed multiple franchises who were seduced by his stats, DSJ killed us last year and will continue to do so

You're going to have to explain to me how Frank can be at the very bottom of the league on offense, in multiple categories, since he was drafted. But one fraction of a season, Smith jr, with a bad back, among other issues. A relative handful of games played in part due to the passing of his Stepmother. Carries more weight.

Calling Smith jr a "shoot first PG" tells me you havent watched very many games with Smith jr in the lineup...anywhere.

Look up “Shoot first PG” in the encyclopedia a pic of Smith Jr is there next to Kyrie Irving. Only Irving is way better

Wasnt his rep in Dallas, Smith has been a pass first PG since entering the league. Some fans who havent seen him play much, or arent paying attention. Assume he's shoot first because he a dynamic player, when healthy. Smith jr shares the rock. If anything, Smith has given up the ball too much as a Knick. Hope he's looking to score more next season, a lot more drives to the rim.

Philc1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Philc1 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Our "solution" has to be able to handle more than 20 minutes a game. Knicks still dont know if that issue has been resolved. Frank's had groin issues since before his first game as a Knick. Missed a lot of games. Was having them before the season ended, this year.

Those numbers mean nothing if Frank cant keep the D honest. That remains to be seen. Id like to see how both Frank and DSJr spent their off time. Too much time will have passed when these guys come back, to put much stock in their plus/minus pre-pandemic. In front of crowds.

Investing another second in DSJ is Failzdale all over again. Stop the madness.

Frankie and Payton are on their way. Resign Dotson.

Package DSJ for a doorstop.

Thats silly. DSJs trade value couldnt be lower. Was a big part of the trade. The very least you do ia see if he is really 100 pct. Which he hasnt been in mind or body since he was traded.
If Smith jr exceeds expectations, you keep him. If the Knicks believe they can get a good deal for Smith jr, but the team is set at PG, trade him.

Your predictions about Frank are right now wishful thinking to say the least. Like DSJr, we have to see if Frank can bring some consistency to his game, his offense. We still dont know if either can stay healthy.

Silly. There is no overnight cure for a player whose trade value is circling the toilet. Increasing his trade value would mean throwing good minutes after bad. So what you are saying is play DSJ at the expense of Frankie (who keeps earning his keep) and whoever makes the team as well as the chance of losing early games that may be critical in a potentially shortened season on a player who has done nothing to EARN that consideration. NOTHING.

Even keeping him is a basketball sin. He would be taking a roster spot on a team that can't afford F-ups.

DSJ was just a tease in that trade. *Before the trade* Dallas shopped him to a giant 'No Thanks' from every team including the Knicks.

DSJ's *value* is as fiscal trade ballast. There are teams who might/could use him. We aren't that. He's a relatively inexpensive body who is whole.

That said, an idiot at 100% is still an idiot.

My predictions about *any* 3 -5 year PG is the same - that's when the fun begins - they know the league, they are in the game, they know their limitations and strengths, and so on. We have two such candidates, both of whom have fine futures. Nobody in their right mind throws that away on a lottery ticket.

So - best case - we have both Frankie and Payton AND a draft pick PG that insulates us from the health issue.

I know you'tr basing your argument purely on emotion because you're calling out DSJ for being a tease, while not acknowledging that Frank has been hands down the biggest tease on the team since Frank was drafted. Longest tenured Knick, biggest tease.

DSJr's first game as a Knick (with a bad back) was better than any game Frank has played healthy. They've both teased ua, but Smith has shown in Dallas, and briefly in NY, that he has a higher ceiling on offense.

1ts 100 pct stupid to trade a player at rock bottom value. Its a long way from his days averaging 16pts as a starter. Frank has yet to show he can crack double digits. Thats not hate, its a fact.

Its something that needs to be sorted out, before proclaiming him King of all PGs. In the meantime, Smith jr and Frank battling for minutes is a good thing. Competition is a good thing.

Edit: We traded JR when he was at rock bottom, had to include Shumpert to make it work. But he was the most toxic player in the league at the time. Not the deal with Smith jr.

I watched literally ever knick game last season. Maybe DSJ had some good games in 2018 when the Knicks were tanking and there was zero pressure but DSJ destroyed this team last year. No defense, turnovers up the @ss, couldn’t shoot - he was a worse version of Stephon Marbury

Has anyone that is vying for DSJR to not be traded for scraps disagreed with most of your statements?
However, do disagree that he "had some good games in 2018". Fact of the matter is had a very good first and second year as a rookie and second year guy at a very young age. He came over here after being told he was the future of a franchise but then pushed aside and had a very good second half with us and showed us what we are missing in terms of explosiveness at the PG position. Yet you ignore that(as some on here are)but rather focus on an injury plagued and tough 34 GAMES??

Look, no one is saying that he needs to fix a shot that is broken. Needs to improve on defense. And that he his play last year was definitely awful last year. We are just saying that if you take the preferential Frank treatment out of the equation, it is not wise to trade him at this low value and that the level of play and athleticism he has shown his entire life, should be a better indicator of his future potential.

It’s not just last season when DSJ was the nba’s worst +\- player. The Mavericks started winning almost immediately after getting rid of him

Shoot first PGs who shoot low percentage and play no defense kill NBA teams. Doesn’t matter the era. Marbury killed us for 5 years, Rod Strickland in the 90’s killed multiple franchises who were seduced by his stats, DSJ killed us last year and will continue to do so

You're going to have to explain to me how Frank can be at the very bottom of the league on offense, in multiple categories, since he was drafted. But one fraction of a season, Smith jr, with a bad back, among other issues. A relative handful of games played in part due to the passing of his Stepmother. Carries more weight.

Calling Smith jr a "shoot first PG" tells me you havent watched very many games with Smith jr in the lineup...anywhere.

Look up “Shoot first PG” in the encyclopedia a pic of Smith Jr is there next to Kyrie Irving. Only Irving is way better

Wasnt his rep in Dallas, Smith has been a pass first PG since entering the league. Some fans who havent seen him play much, or arent paying attention. Assume he's shoot first because he a dynamic player, when healthy. Smith jr shares the rock. If anything, Smith has given up the ball too much as a Knick. Hope he's looking to score more next season, a lot more drives to the rim.

DSJ’s reputation in Dallas was trash. That’s why Cuban was laughing when the Knicks accepted him as part of a package for Kristaps

We can go back and forth all day since you think DSJ is a young Kobe but let’s look at the stats:

34% - the highest percentage from 3 DSJ has ever shot in the nba ever. DSJ shot 28% and 29% from 3 as a Knick

5.4 - DSJ’s highest ever assists per game average. Low for a starting full time nba Point Guard

His fg percentage in Dallas was good but he wasa slashing pg

And this is a guy who plays no defense and turns the ball over a lot

Nothing to go back and forth about. You're saying that Smith is a ball hog. No basis in fact.

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Nothing to go back and forth about. You're saying that Smith is a ball hog. No basis in fact.

I think people use the the words ball dominant and selfish interchangeably. That's not always the case. Both Melo and Chris Paul pound the air out of the ball, but nobody accuses Paul of being selfish. DSJ does pound the hell out of the ball and is a willing passer. The problem is that he doesn't recognize reads or see the floor as well as he needs to. You can make up for that when you can penetrate at will, but DSJ couldn't do that last year. He becomes useless if he loses a step due to his lack of J. I'm hoping for a bounce. We need as much talent as possible.

Smith jr. has enough work to do on his game without assigning flaws he doesnt have. Marbury as a Knick was ball dominant. He would pound the rock for most of the shot clock, and give the ball up, if he didnt have the lane.

Smith jr gives up the ball early in the shot clock. Keeps the ball moving. Where he goes wrong most often. What makes him cough up the ball, more often than not. Is when DSJr takes it to the rim, in transition, or halfcourt set. And is met by one or two defenders, he too often coughed up the ball instead of a reset. Thats a long way from dominating the ball.