Nalod wrote:Its the same old.....if a player does well its "we should have been starting him". Fact is part of the process was not starting him and let the kid develop. He plays well, he finishes. Who cares about who starts!
As for Mitch's shooting: We just don't know. Lets start with midrange and see where it goes.
Randle: He shoots 51% from non 3. He gets to the line, he beats the snot out of his guy and this season avgs 3 TO's a game. His ranking this season:
# 19.
He is our leading scorer and has a lot of touches. Other (turnovers per game)"Losers":

1 Trae Young PG 4.80
2 James Harden Houston Rockets SG 4.50
3 Russell Westbrook Houston Rockets PG 4.42
4 Luka Doncic Dallas Mavericks SF 4.23
5 LeBron James Los Angeles Lakers SF 4.00
6 Devin Booker Phoenix Suns SG 3.93
7 Giannis Antetokounmpo Milwaukee Bucks SF 3.67
8 Ben Simmons Philadelphia 76ers SG 3.56
9 Andre Drummond Cleveland Cavaliers C 3.52
10 Zach LaVine Chicago Bulls PG 3.43
11 Bradley Beal Washington Wizards SG 3.38
12 Ja Morant Memphis Grizzlies PG 3.21
13 D'Angelo Russell Minnesota Timberwolves PG 3.20
14 De'Aaron Fox Sacramento Kings PG 3.13
15 Brandon Ingram New Orleans Pelicans SF 3.11
16 Nikola Jokic Denver Nuggets C 3.08
17 Lonzo Ball New Orleans Pelicans PG 3.07
18 Joel Embiid Philadelphia 76ers C 3.05
19 Julius Randle New York Knicks PF 3.00
20 Kyle Lowry PG 2.96
21 Damian Lillard Portland Trail Blazers PG 2.91
22 Jrue Holiday New Orleans Pelicans PG 2.87
23 Lou Williams L.A. Clippers SG 2.87
24 Bam Adebayo C 2.84
25 Devonte' Graham Charlotte Hornets PG 2.84
26 Kawhi Leonard L.A. Clippers SF 2.80
27 Domantas Sabonis Indiana Pacers PF 2.74
28 Spencer Dinwiddie Brooklyn Nets PG 2.70
29 Ricky Rubio Phoenix Suns PG 2.68
30 Donovan Mitchell SG 2.65

Randle # 43 with 19.3. KP is 41st. Randles numbers are better than Lamarcus Aldridge these days.
I have him 7th in scoring for the position. 4th in rebounding.
Empty? Maybe, but that's subjective. Nobody is touting him as "Untouchable" or the foundation of our franchise, but before you start disposing of him it might be a
good idea to at least have a valid back up to what is being suggested
The notion we can just replace his production and improve on it at the blink of an eye is a bit naïve.

You realize your list shows he's leading the league in TOs from the PF spot? the list you provide is not normalized for usage or position

Also there is the eyeball test: so, so many of his TOs are particularly dumb, dribbling right into traffic

if you think Randle is a good player, or that he makes his teammates better you're entitled to that. Personally i see a low IQ player, who at times is very selfish.
His prior two employers seem to have benefited from his departure. He is not growing as a player -- you are seeing his ceiling right now

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

franco12 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

TPercy wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:this makes no sense IMO. Next year, if the team still sucks big donkey dong, you play him as close to 40mpg as possible and you trade him. If the team is gonna be any good, well, I would imagine Randle would have to be a part of it. I get that Randle has massive holes to his game but I mean I'd rather have him at 18 mil a year than THJ

the bold. Here's how this works. Who is starting over him and why? If there is a guy who benefits from better PG play its Randle

FA class isn't the strongest but there some decent PFs out there who would be an upgrade over him in terms of overall impact

Randle is not a good fit with Mitch, which is why mitch isn't starting, and Randle is a starter on any team. There isn't a single team in the entire NBA that would have him coming off the bench.

If you had to bring him off the bench, that means you have a stupid ass unbalance roster or a loaded roster ( a AD, KP front court)..He's a 20/10 player...WTF

He started next to AD who's the best PF in the NBA.

Mitch isn't starting because he would pick up 5 fouls in his first five minutes of play.

If something isn't broke, and Mitch has been playing well in his role, don't break it.

Thats to, but i wouldn't start him unless i had 4 bonafide (39%)shoots around him

If randle is trying to post up (which he does more than not) where exactly do you think mitch will be standing, and where do you think the guy guarding Mitch will be standing..IN THE PAINT..

Are you going to get 5 other guys to compliment his game

If Mitch cleaned up his fouling, him starting over Randle if coached wanted to choose one over the other due to spacing would be a no brainer. His ability to anchor a defense as well as his ability to score without plays drawn up for him with pure hustle and athleticism is more valuable. The ceiling of the team would also be higher.

And no you wouldn’t need all 4 players to shoot 39%. You would need 3 at 36% as long as they can play some type of defense themselves. And one to 2 capable playmakers to generate the lobs that he will eat up.

There is a reason Gobert and Adams were both chosen over a guy like Kanter.

Here's a quote from the article martin posted

ESPN’s Zach Lowe reaffirmed what Knicks fans have been saying about Randle all season when he spoke about Randle’s bad fit with RJ Barrett and Mitchell Robinson.

been saying this all season long, This is just a really bad assembled team, and most of the guys are asked to do more than they can, or just put in the wrong roles.

Al harford is experience similar issues with Philly

Al Horford - and his four-year, $109-million contract - has been a disaster for the 76ers. The 33-year-old's shooting numbers are down across the board and his fit with Joel Embiid is questionable at best.

You don't need a shot blocking center to be good in the NBA..Kanter is living proof of that, people couldn't wait for him to be waived of the knicks, only to see him have good amount of success with portland and boston..

The First team I would think of going to is Memphis..Brandon clark for Mitch.

BRIGGS wrote:Moving a player to 6 th man has nothing to do with saying this player is bad etc.. but rather I think puts him in a spot to help the team in a better way. Our first 5 for most of they year hasn’t really meshed. I can see Randle doing damage and playing effectively from a role that historically leans towards a good offensive player

See how that works?

If Randle isnt starting you trade him. Its really that simple. Its not like Houston/Sprewell and both guys play 35 minutes a night

ESPN: ESPN rating = PTS + REB + 1.4*AST + STL + 1.4*BLK -.7*TO + FGM + .5*TGM -.8*(FGA-FGM) + .25*FTM - .8*(FTA-FTM)

KP is #41, Randle #47. KP plays with the no. 3 player on this list in Docic. http://www.espn.com/nba/seasonleaders/_/league/nba if you click any of the stats it will rank the players to that stat.

My objective take is Randle gets more touches because he is our best player so some of the stat line is inflated. KP gets more quality looks that he surrounded by shooters including 21 year old Larry Bird. Randle has nobody near that quality.

So what do we know. The trade sucks. Take the cap space and add Randle to the return. Im not saying Randle is better than KP. Im saying does it temper the suck-a-tude of the trade.
Yes, Id rather have KP. But.......if Hardaway and Clee were not in our future, and we can get something from the Dallas picks or used them in a trade, then it perhaps goes from the "all time worst trade since mankind happened" to somewhere on the top 10 all time bad knick deals.

knicks1248 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

franco12 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

TPercy wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:this makes no sense IMO. Next year, if the team still sucks big donkey dong, you play him as close to 40mpg as possible and you trade him. If the team is gonna be any good, well, I would imagine Randle would have to be a part of it. I get that Randle has massive holes to his game but I mean I'd rather have him at 18 mil a year than THJ

the bold. Here's how this works. Who is starting over him and why? If there is a guy who benefits from better PG play its Randle

FA class isn't the strongest but there some decent PFs out there who would be an upgrade over him in terms of overall impact

Randle is not a good fit with Mitch, which is why mitch isn't starting, and Randle is a starter on any team. There isn't a single team in the entire NBA that would have him coming off the bench.

If you had to bring him off the bench, that means you have a stupid ass unbalance roster or a loaded roster ( a AD, KP front court)..He's a 20/10 player...WTF

He started next to AD who's the best PF in the NBA.

Mitch isn't starting because he would pick up 5 fouls in his first five minutes of play.

If something isn't broke, and Mitch has been playing well in his role, don't break it.

Thats to, but i wouldn't start him unless i had 4 bonafide (39%)shoots around him

If randle is trying to post up (which he does more than not) where exactly do you think mitch will be standing, and where do you think the guy guarding Mitch will be standing..IN THE PAINT..

Are you going to get 5 other guys to compliment his game

If Mitch cleaned up his fouling, him starting over Randle if coached wanted to choose one over the other due to spacing would be a no brainer. His ability to anchor a defense as well as his ability to score without plays drawn up for him with pure hustle and athleticism is more valuable. The ceiling of the team would also be higher.

And no you wouldn’t need all 4 players to shoot 39%. You would need 3 at 36% as long as they can play some type of defense themselves. And one to 2 capable playmakers to generate the lobs that he will eat up.

There is a reason Gobert and Adams were both chosen over a guy like Kanter.

Here's a quote from the article martin posted

ESPN’s Zach Lowe reaffirmed what Knicks fans have been saying about Randle all season when he spoke about Randle’s bad fit with RJ Barrett and Mitchell Robinson.

been saying this all season long, This is just a really bad assembled team, and most of the guys are asked to do more than they can, or just put in the wrong roles.

Al harford is experience similar issues with Philly

Al Horford - and his four-year, $109-million contract - has been a disaster for the 76ers. The 33-year-old's shooting numbers are down across the board and his fit with Joel Embiid is questionable at best.

You don't need a shot blocking center to be good in the NBA..Kanter is living proof of that, people couldn't wait for him to be waived of the knicks, only to see him have good amount of success with portland and boston..

The First team I would think of going to is Memphis..Brandon clark for Mitch.

Memphis has Jonas to play in between Jackson and Clarke. They have good balance already.

Kanter is a pps specialist. Or high production limited mins. To many mins and he is a liability. He gets 17mins a game on Boston. Theis gets more mins that him since he holds a positive 1.8 defensive plus/minus(As well as 1.3 blks in 23 mins).

Mitch has a higher ceiling than Randle. Randle’s best hope was to become that point forward type that could improve on his 34% from 3. But if that was the case he and Mitch would have been perfect for each other. Mitch has DOPY potential while adding in 15pts-12rebs per game in prime. Randle had his best season last yr, may be his ceiling. Which on an actual winning team could work as a pps role player like Harrell and Kanter.

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

franco12 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

TPercy wrote:

fishmike wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:this makes no sense IMO. Next year, if the team still sucks big donkey dong, you play him as close to 40mpg as possible and you trade him. If the team is gonna be any good, well, I would imagine Randle would have to be a part of it. I get that Randle has massive holes to his game but I mean I'd rather have him at 18 mil a year than THJ

the bold. Here's how this works. Who is starting over him and why? If there is a guy who benefits from better PG play its Randle

FA class isn't the strongest but there some decent PFs out there who would be an upgrade over him in terms of overall impact

Randle is not a good fit with Mitch, which is why mitch isn't starting, and Randle is a starter on any team. There isn't a single team in the entire NBA that would have him coming off the bench.

If you had to bring him off the bench, that means you have a stupid ass unbalance roster or a loaded roster ( a AD, KP front court)..He's a 20/10 player...WTF

He started next to AD who's the best PF in the NBA.

Mitch isn't starting because he would pick up 5 fouls in his first five minutes of play.

If something isn't broke, and Mitch has been playing well in his role, don't break it.

Thats to, but i wouldn't start him unless i had 4 bonafide (39%)shoots around him

If randle is trying to post up (which he does more than not) where exactly do you think mitch will be standing, and where do you think the guy guarding Mitch will be standing..IN THE PAINT..

Are you going to get 5 other guys to compliment his game

If Mitch cleaned up his fouling, him starting over Randle if coached wanted to choose one over the other due to spacing would be a no brainer. His ability to anchor a defense as well as his ability to score without plays drawn up for him with pure hustle and athleticism is more valuable. The ceiling of the team would also be higher.

And no you wouldn’t need all 4 players to shoot 39%. You would need 3 at 36% as long as they can play some type of defense themselves. And one to 2 capable playmakers to generate the lobs that he will eat up.

There is a reason Gobert and Adams were both chosen over a guy like Kanter.

Here's a quote from the article martin posted

ESPN’s Zach Lowe reaffirmed what Knicks fans have been saying about Randle all season when he spoke about Randle’s bad fit with RJ Barrett and Mitchell Robinson.

been saying this all season long, This is just a really bad assembled team, and most of the guys are asked to do more than they can, or just put in the wrong roles.

Al harford is experience similar issues with Philly

Al Horford - and his four-year, $109-million contract - has been a disaster for the 76ers. The 33-year-old's shooting numbers are down across the board and his fit with Joel Embiid is questionable at best.

You don't need a shot blocking center to be good in the NBA..Kanter is living proof of that, people couldn't wait for him to be waived of the knicks, only to see him have good amount of success with portland and boston..

The First team I would think of going to is Memphis..Brandon clark for Mitch.

Memphis has Jonas to play in between Jackson and Clarke. They have good balance already.

Kanter is a pps specialist. Or high production limited mins. To many mins and he is a liability. He gets 17mins a game on Boston. Theis gets more mins that him since he holds a positive 1.8 defensive plus/minus(As well as 1.3 blks in 23 mins).

Mitch has a higher ceiling than Randle. Randle’s best hope was to become that point forward type that could improve on his 34% from 3. But if that was the case he and Mitch would have been perfect for each other. Mitch has DOPY potential while adding in 15pts-12rebs per game in prime. Randle had his best season last yr, may be his ceiling. Which on an actual winning team could work as a pps role player like Harrell and Kanter.

Ceiling, if your IQ only goes up to a certain point, then you should find another line of work.

This is randle first season with 13 new players, and 2 caoch's that asked him to do different things, and more than a few young low IQ teammates..you think that's easy?

Wonder how an Obi Toppin/Mitch front line would pan out.

BigDaddyG wrote:

martin wrote:6th man, starter, don’t much matter to me. IMHO it’s pretty clear that Randle is not a key piece to long term winning. So find a better PF who can operate with Mitch.

Wonder how an Obi Toppin/Mitch front line would pan out.

Obi's defense is pretty bad. I see him as Marcus Fizer, Drew Golden offensive spark reserve type.

Obi aint a finished product. Put him on a team with a coach that stresses defense and teaches defensive principles and he can become a solid defender when you consider his quickness and athletic ability.

Nalod wrote:He has been our best player. Reduce his role and up the talent around him and its like Timmy is in Dallas, “Good player”.
Remove him and who is in his place?
Randle is not the answer but he is not the question either.

Nalod wrote:

TPercy wrote:

Nalod wrote:Good article bit it goes all over the place. It ends with Elf and him as buddies but with all the video and coaches how is it this continues and if so why does it? and what are the alternatives.
"gee, Elf and him are too tight, they should stop! Im the super fan who got this!".
He wraps up with "Randle is a good 2nd or third option"......Nalad been telling you this all year! Hemming and haw'd about Morris gone but as our top player its problematic. How so? We had one but 17 games all season until he was traded. 5-8 since? Not saying he was the problem, but he was not the answer either.
What is?
Unless we draft a revelation or make a trade this team can improve next year but not to .500. That's obvious.
We have a long list of things. "Mitch needs a midrange jumper, RJ needs to improve his FT (He has as the season goes on), Frank needs to be less cerebral and Knox needs to grow a pair, etc......
That is all true.
Moving Randle to 6th man is a great idea when you have jrue Holiday and AD on the court. Not when RJ and Taj are.
In Kenny we trust.

Then get better players with the resources available? We have two draft picks and a **** ton of cap space. FA and draft is weak granted but I want to win basketball games while making sure our core pieces are developing. Buddy Hield and Myles Turner were once core pieces of their teams and now they come off the bench w/ relatively no issue. Al Horford was signed to big money and now has to come off the bench. Even Tristan Thompson in the last year of contract accepted he'll do what needs to happen for his team...and he isn't coming back. Its not ideal, I get it, but I'm not kowtowing to Julius flipping Randle if a better option presents itself.

Well, yeah I agree. Horford is not clicking with his team and his team is not performing to expectation. Knicks with miller in my opinion are playing to about its ability. Sabonis in Indy has emerged to warrant the spacing needed to keep Turner away. I’m an totally down with Randle to the bench if need be. AT this moment we are looking at Portis to replace him? More talent? I think thats the goal.
While its incremental franks improvement is a talent increase. I expect similar with KNox.

Agree, Randle has shown to be a good player.
As for those saying Randle to the bench? Figures. Being in the "Rinse and Repeat" sports capital of the world. I was against signing Randle. Did not think that he was worth the contract. Hoped we traded him for another young prospect or high draft pick at deadline. Do not like his court vision and think he needs to have the same motor on defense that he has on offense. HOWEVER... there is no way that its smart to put him on the bench. The KID is 25 years old. Has shown that he has a lot of talent getting to the hoop and is a beast down low. He seems to be okay with the bright lights of New York. He is a easy target for the hard hat NY Knick fan base that change their minds a thousand times in a NY minute. IF we keep him. Here is an idea. How about we actually work with him to improve? Give him things he needs to work on in the off season and get him the tight help to work on those things. Or does everyone think it's a smart idea to keep signing young guys, watch them show promise then tell them they are coming off the bench because they need to be complete players? IF so, we need to bench everyone we have. And how is that good for their development/confidence? To me, this is what separates great franchises from ones that have the IQ and expectations of their impatient fan bases. Good franchises develop potential. Bad ones "Rinse and Repeat" the next mediocre idea. BTW, some of the replacements suggested are less than lateral at best.
But agree, if the Knicks cant develop him they need to trade him not make him a 6th man.