Kemet wrote:

anrst wrote:not firing a bad coach bc you are scared of the media backlash and, hey, he's not responsible for all the team's problems, is some real over-thought, gas lit bs

he's a bad coach.

we should keep searching and trying out coaches until we get a good coach.

it's that simple.

we don't want our players to be coached by a bad coach.

4-17 record .. And the 44 point Loss !!!
Our rookie RJ Barrett and our 2nd season players Knox/MitchRob/Trier has all lost a step in their B.ball IQ under performing for coach Fizdale. There's no improvement in any players performance in 20 games. There's rarely a team performance on the court.
The Knicks are averaging 65% from the FT .. The Knicks average 90 shots per game, and 40 of those shots are from the 3-ball line .. meaning there's no inside team-plays being made for a quick two the coach designed.
Firing Fizdale ASAP .. Gives the front office plenty of time to find a long term NBA head-coach.

CrushAlot wrote:

Uptown wrote:Firing Fiz in the second year of a rebuild Sends the message that the circus is back at MSG and perhaps never left. If we fire Fiz, the new coach will be our 6th HC in 6 years!! We will remind the league that we are and always will be the poster franchise for ineptitude and turmoil.

Last year was a wash as we unapologetically tanked, and now, after 20 plus games, in year two of a rebuild, we want to for him? Because he can't compete with a roster full of journeymen and backups?! Development is a slow process, it has taken Frank 3 years to move from a G-League level talent, to legit back-up pg status. Mudiay had the best year of his short career last year. That don't count? How much time are we giving Fiz to develop these players? 20 segments like Mills and Perry?

The Sixers drafted Michael Carter Williams in 2014. There were some scouts comparing him to Penny Hardaway. By the same logic some of you are using, Brown should have been fired after his second year because Williams declined from his rookie year to his 2nd before he was traded all together. Williams has been on a decline ever since and is now a journeymen. Maybe Knox is what he is, a journeymen! Maybe Frank is what he is, a back up. Either way, he has shown improvement this year and Fiz should be credited for it.

We have a very long way to go and as soon as some of us see some adversity or things dont go exactly the way we want them to, we jump ship. Rebuilding is ugly!!! Rebuilkdng takes a lot of patients which most of us are proving not to have.

I agree but that impromptu press conference with Mills and Perry where they said they were evaluating the team every ten games was a disaster. Fiz and the team haven't responded so far. It will be interesting to see how they respond after some time in the gym together and a really bad loss. I also am interested to see how the team plays once Payton is back. Fiz definitely deserves more time. If the front office is thinking about giving Miller a chance, after the all star break might be the time. A lot of speculation out there that Fiz is going to last the season and then be fired as the scapegoat to buy another year for Mills.

The idea of calling that press conference was asinine and not only did it throw Fiz under the bus, but it unintentionally or intentionally depending who's article you read, put Fiz on the hot seat.

When Perry was hired, and the front office began prioritizing salary cap management, keeping and trading for 1st round picks, trying to build with youth, I wanted to be optimistic that we were finally going to rebuild this thing the right way, but knew at some point, Dolan wouldn't be able to stay out of the way. The press conference he called shows that he cant keep from meddling and staying the course may be out of the question.

If he fires Fiz, the spotlight will move to the front office and if we struggle again next year, which we will because we are far from ready to compete, Dolan will fire Perry and began another search for another front office puppet that will have his hands cuffed again.

newyorknewyork wrote:

Uptown wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Firing him wouldn’t be based off his win loss record. Would be based off his ability to develop players. There really is no evidence of this. Firing him just to get him out because he is losing wouldn’t accomplish much if that was the reason. But using the rest of the season to evaluate if Mike Miller is capable wouldn’t be bad. Or if not Mike Miller. A coach who can actually show the results of developing and improving young players. As that is the only way for the Knicks to move forward.

What evidence is available to prove that Brett Browns developed his players in his 1st 4 years in Philly when he won 19, 18, 10 and 28 games? Did he all of sudden become a better developer of players once his franchise brought in 2 #1 picks?

Brett Brown's coaching ability is still questioned to this day. But even with that it's not the same scenario. Knicks attempted to win this yr. Philly purposely tanked for yrs with G league players and had first round and 2nd Rd picks galore to fall back on. Every player they acquired was added with a draft pick attached. The moment they became serious about winning they won. Granted when they were serious they acquired higher quality talent than the Knicks have.

Brett Browns success is most likely due to the talent of Simmons and Embild more so than the ability to get the most out of each player or mold diamonds from the rough. Doc Rivers had Harris playing like a complete player on and off the ball.

So is the plan to keep Fiz until the one day we land a Simmons or Embild level dude? Do we trade off any young assets that can't produce for Fiz right now for vets that are more capable?

The sad part is even if all of that gets established for him and he has a bunch of proven vets and a star or 2 that can do all the work for him. It's still wouldn't be a sure thing that he would be able to take the team to the next level.

And I'm not even asking for wins. But again one example of many. They evaluated and drafted Knox I. the lottery. What was the plan for his progress and growth. How were they planning on utilizing him to make him successful?

Knicks attempted to win this yr.

Knicks put this roster together to make an attempt at the 8th seed in the east, giving the illusion that we are further along in our rebuild than we really are. This roster falls on the shoulders of the front office and places Fiz in a tough spot. He has to coach anf give plenty of minutes to a handful of players on 1 year deals thats looking for their next pay day, try to win some games with a roster that looks more like its built for the 90s than todays current game, and at the same time develop the young players. Difficult to develop young players when the message from the front office is to chase 8th seed. It easy to figure out the 8th seed was a goal as Fiz mentioned still being in the mix for a playoff spot during a press conference.

Brett Browns success is most likely due to the talent of Simmons and Embild more so than the ability to get the most out of each player or mold diamonds from the rough. Doc Rivers had Harris playing like a complete player on and off the ball.

Its a players league. Cant win without players. Most coaches success is due to the talent of the roster. Pop is one of the greatest coaches of all time, but only has 3 more wins than we do, and we're a damn dumpster fire according to most....He no longer has all stars or transcending players and he's struggling. The purpose of tanking and rebuilding is to place yourself into a position to grab a transcendent player or two. We dont have to wait until we land an Embiid or Simmons to dcide Fiz's fate, but how we give him a team where Julius Randle aint your best player! This is Randle's 6th yr in the league, 3 of those years his team never won more than 30 games, and at this rate this will be his 4th. Wouldn't mind seeing Fiz get a chance to coach some allstars to what he can do....

The sad part is even if all of that gets established for him and he has a bunch of proven vets and a star or 2 that can do all the work for him. It's still wouldn't be a sure thing that he would be able to take the team to the next level.

And I'm not even asking for wins. But again one example of many. They evaluated and drafted Knox I. the lottery. What was the plan for his progress and growth. How were they planning on utilizing him to make him successful?

It's never a sure thing....Damn sure aint a sure thing for Mike Miller who's only pro experience is in the G League but he seems to be the peoples champ right now. Curious as to why Smart's name doesn't come up? For everyone complaining about the lack of development this year, isn't Mike miller apart of the staff?

I dont think anyone knows for sure what the plan was for Knox, but one thing is for sure, most everything on his scouting report we are seeing before our eyes. Low motor, floats, inconsistent, avoids contact, poor defensive player etc...Maybe, Knox is who he is and will be what he will be. It's still early though. Also, whatever Fiz may have had for him was thrown out the Window when Morris backed out of the Spurs deal.

Uptown wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Uptown wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Firing him wouldn’t be based off his win loss record. Would be based off his ability to develop players. There really is no evidence of this. Firing him just to get him out because he is losing wouldn’t accomplish much if that was the reason. But using the rest of the season to evaluate if Mike Miller is capable wouldn’t be bad. Or if not Mike Miller. A coach who can actually show the results of developing and improving young players. As that is the only way for the Knicks to move forward.

What evidence is available to prove that Brett Browns developed his players in his 1st 4 years in Philly when he won 19, 18, 10 and 28 games? Did he all of sudden become a better developer of players once his franchise brought in 2 #1 picks?

Brett Brown's coaching ability is still questioned to this day. But even with that it's not the same scenario. Knicks attempted to win this yr. Philly purposely tanked for yrs with G league players and had first round and 2nd Rd picks galore to fall back on. Every player they acquired was added with a draft pick attached. The moment they became serious about winning they won. Granted when they were serious they acquired higher quality talent than the Knicks have.

Brett Browns success is most likely due to the talent of Simmons and Embild more so than the ability to get the most out of each player or mold diamonds from the rough. Doc Rivers had Harris playing like a complete player on and off the ball.

So is the plan to keep Fiz until the one day we land a Simmons or Embild level dude? Do we trade off any young assets that can't produce for Fiz right now for vets that are more capable?

The sad part is even if all of that gets established for him and he has a bunch of proven vets and a star or 2 that can do all the work for him. It's still wouldn't be a sure thing that he would be able to take the team to the next level.

And I'm not even asking for wins. But again one example of many. They evaluated and drafted Knox I. the lottery. What was the plan for his progress and growth. How were they planning on utilizing him to make him successful?

Knicks attempted to win this yr.

Knicks put this roster together to make an attempt at the 8th seed in the east, giving the illusion that we are further along in our rebuild than we really are. This roster falls on the shoulders of the front office and places Fiz in a tough spot. He has to coach anf give plenty of minutes to a handful of players on 1 year deals thats looking for their next pay day, try to win some games with a roster that looks more like its built for the 90s than todays current game, and at the same time develop the young players. Difficult to develop young players when the message from the front office is to chase 8th seed. It easy to figure out the 8th seed was a goal as Fiz mentioned still being in the mix for a playoff spot during a press conference.

Brett Browns success is most likely due to the talent of Simmons and Embild more so than the ability to get the most out of each player or mold diamonds from the rough. Doc Rivers had Harris playing like a complete player on and off the ball.

Its a players league. Cant win without players. Most coaches success is due to the talent of the roster. Pop is one of the greatest coaches of all time, but only has 3 more wins than we do, and we're a damn dumpster fire according to most....He no longer has all stars or transcending players and he's struggling. The purpose of tanking and rebuilding is to place yourself into a position to grab a transcendent player or two. We dont have to wait until we land an Embiid or Simmons to dcide Fiz's fate, but how we give him a team where Julius Randle aint your best player! This is Randle's 6th yr in the league, 3 of those years his team never won more than 30 games, and at this rate this will be his 4th. Wouldn't mind seeing Fiz get a chance to coach some allstars to what he can do....

The sad part is even if all of that gets established for him and he has a bunch of proven vets and a star or 2 that can do all the work for him. It's still wouldn't be a sure thing that he would be able to take the team to the next level.

And I'm not even asking for wins. But again one example of many. They evaluated and drafted Knox I. the lottery. What was the plan for his progress and growth. How were they planning on utilizing him to make him successful?

It's never a sure thing....Damn sure aint a sure thing for Mike Miller who's only pro experience is in the G League but he seems to be the peoples champ right now. Curious as to why Smart's name doesn't come up? For everyone complaining about the lack of development this year, isn't Mike miller apart of the staff?

I dont think anyone knows for sure what the plan was for Knox, but one thing is for sure, most everything on his scouting report we are seeing before our eyes. Low motor, floats, inconsistent, avoids contact, poor defensive player etc...Maybe, Knox is who he is and will be what he will be. It's still early though. Also, whatever Fiz may have had for him was thrown out the Window when Morris backed out of the Spurs deal.

I know the situation. Was responding in comparison to Brett Brown. Philly operated differently than what the Knicks have been trying to do. Philly would be looking to trade Frank, Smith, Knox, Trier, Dotson and Mitch for future draft picks as those possibilities arose. They wouldn't have signed Randle, Morris, Portis etc. They would have looked to eat any ugly contracts they could for more future draft picks. With the whole purpose of stock piling assets and loading up on draft picks until those picks and prospects they turn over again and again turned into a Simmons or an Embild etc. They weren't exactly in a team building and player development mode or environment.

With the Knicks, what we were told by the FO and the coach who was brought in. Was that the Knicks were ALL ABOUT PLAYER DEVELOPMENT. Yet they have been absolutely terrible with the one thing they told us they were going to hang their hat on. So either they have to go the pure Hinkie and just go into assets collection route until they corner the market on a superstar to make Fiz job easy. Or they need to replace Fiz with a coach who can show results in terms of player development. I don't even judge Fiz on his W/L record. I only judge him on player development. He can either have wins and limited player development or under 500. and strong player development, BUT HE CAN'T HAVE BOTH. He has to bring something to the table.

Don't know much about Smart which is probably why his name doesn't get brought up. Miller's name is brought up because he has accomplished something and had success being named the G-League coach of the yr. Fans wanna see if he is the goods or not. Miller is far from a sure thing. But using a good portion of the season to evaluate him would make sense if they moved on from Fiz.

knicks1248 wrote:Pay attention to the Huddles, half the players aren't even listening to him, They are having conversations between themselves or with the ref, and paying very little attention to Fiz and that clip board. I was sitting in a Bar and a total non basketball fan called that out

The stupid Idea that there is no other coach that would do better is assine thinking, that's like saying we should have never fired DON Nelson because there was no hot shot coach available at the time, just some assistant name JVG.

I think most have noticed this but they have some wacky idea the Knicks are doing the Sixers process. The management is genuinely trying to win hence ridiculous FA spending. Sixers weren’t trying to get FAs during their process.

Nalod wrote:Don’t forget 76ers were so bad the league had to step in with Collangelo who sped up the process by trades for players. This was a multi year process but it was not good. Road attendance was bad. Teams were not happy. Hinkie was fired.
They had a process.

Philly lost at the rate they did because they ONLY cared about collecting assets in order to corner the market for a star. There was no team building, turn over was monthly. Under those circumstnaces the coach is the last thing you look at.

Knicks aren't in the same situation. They are in team building and player development mode, as we were told. The vets brought in were brought in to guide the young players. Team hoped to at least double the win total to show progress. Or overachieve and sneak in as a 8th seed with the combination of young talent developing and solid vet play.

The main issue is that there is no structure or real processes in place where you can see players coming in and being molded into better players. Fiz sensei Spoelstra in Mia. Josh Richardson, Whiteside, Tyler Johnson, Rodney Mcgruder, Duncan Robinson, Kendrick Nunn. Spoletra has created the structure and proccess for players to come into his program and kick start careers. The ones just named were 2nd rders or undfa. Those aren't even the lotto picks of Winslow, Bam & Hero who Spoelstra also gets the most out of. Spoelstra doesn't rely on superstar players to save him. Same process was established with Atkinson and the Nets. Mike Malone and the Nuggets, Quin Snyder and the Jazz, Nate and the Pacers.

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Pay attention to the Huddles, half the players aren't even listening to him, They are having conversations between themselves or with the ref, and paying very little attention to Fiz and that clip board. I was sitting in a Bar and a total non basketball fan called that out

The stupid Idea that there is no other coach that would do better is assine thinking, that's like saying we should have never fired DON Nelson because there was no hot shot coach available at the time, just some assistant name JVG.

And that short term move to fire Nellie and bring in JVG set the franchise back. Grunfeld. was moving the team to a new era and Dolan panicked because Nellie wanted Ewing out. It was rumored A deal for Shaq could have been made. Funny you bring up Nellie because in a way his firing was a key moment that set off the chain that set off the next 20 years. Dolan choosing JVG over Grunfeld meant The team built for speed was coached by a man who pushed back. The blame game? BLame Layden but he inherited the mess caused by Ewings demise and contract. The cause of that mess was the culprit. Layden did not make good moves to correct it and he gets the tag. Dolan panicked . Fire Layden because garden was flat. Dolan panicked. Hire Isiah as starphuch. Bad move. Dolan dug in, league steps in. Dolan not down with Donnie. Think Donnie does 100mil contracts? Nope. Dolan gets Amare to be his star. Dolan panics. Dolan steps over Donnie to get Melo. Panic move.
Hired MIlls, barely on the job and he hires Phil while fans protest. Panic move. Dolan digs on KP and fires Phil. Bad timing. It did not work. This season is awful, what will Dolan do now? If you play chess one move at a time you may win the move but lose the match. Thanks Knicks1248 for demonstrating how that works. Firing Nellie fixed the problem but not the long term. We went to the finals in 99’ which was JVG survived with a 2 year 4mil extension Dolan did not want to eat. My theory is JVG should not have been given the to be EWings guardian. Ewing aged badly. Nellie saw it. takes balls.

You said all that to say what?

The Bottom line is Mills, Perry and FIZ have the worst winning percentage in the history of the franchise, Mills as President has the worst record in the NBA...why should we continue down this course?

Firing them would never be considered a panic move, it would be considered a wise move by 90% of fans and media...Nobody is buying what they are selling, because they have proving to be frauds.

If you dont think this losing is having a major impact on the development and growth of all our the young players, your nuts. Bringing RJ in to this culture is BAD BUSINESS.

https://theathletic.com/1431918/2019/12/04/isola-fizdale-and-the-knicks-are-running-out-of-chances-and-time/

According to a league source, if the Knicks make an in-season coaching move, one of two assistants – Mike Miller or Pat Sullivan – would likely be promoted. Miller coached the Knicks G League affiliate. Coincidentally, assistant coaches Keith Smart and Kaleb Canales each have head coaching experience. Royal Ivey, who drew interest around the league over the summer, and Jud Buechler would not be under consideration.

Allanfan20 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

franco12 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Pay attention to the Huddles, half the players aren't even listening to him, They are having conversations between themselves or with the ref, and paying very little attention to Fiz and that clip board. I was sitting in a Bar and a total non basketball fan called that out

The stupid Idea that there is no other coach that would do better is assine thinking, that's like saying we should have never fired DON Nelson because there was no hot shot coach available at the time, just some assistant name JVG.

And that short term move to fire Nellie and bring in JVG set the franchise back. Grunfeld. was moving the team to a new era and Dolan panicked because Nellie wanted Ewing out. It was rumored A deal for Shaq could have been made. Funny you bring up Nellie because in a way his firing was a key moment that set off the chain that set off the next 20 years. Dolan choosing JVG over Grunfeld meant The team built for speed was coached by a man who pushed back. The blame game? BLame Layden but he inherited the mess caused by Ewings demise and contract. The cause of that mess was the culprit. Layden did not make good moves to correct it and he gets the tag. Dolan panicked . Fire Layden because garden was flat. Dolan panicked. Hire Isiah as starphuch. Bad move. Dolan dug in, league steps in. Dolan not down with Donnie. Think Donnie does 100mil contracts? Nope. Dolan gets Amare to be his star. Dolan panics. Dolan steps over Donnie to get Melo. Panic move.
Hired MIlls, barely on the job and he hires Phil while fans protest. Panic move. Dolan digs on KP and fires Phil. Bad timing. It did not work. This season is awful, what will Dolan do now? If you play chess one move at a time you may win the move but lose the match. Thanks Knicks1248 for demonstrating how that works. Firing Nellie fixed the problem but not the long term. We went to the finals in 99’ which was JVG survived with a 2 year 4mil extension Dolan did not want to eat. My theory is JVG should not have been given the to be EWings guardian. Ewing aged badly. Nellie saw it. takes balls.

Bad comparison by knicks1248 - and I've tried to suppress that turning point which has lead to endless misery for Knick fans- but his point is I think true - this squad isn't this bad. And you can either think he needs more time to get them to gel, overcome injuries - or his message isn't getting through, or if it is, his strategy and game plan sucks.

Or you could think we are this bad, and no coach makes a difference to our results.

If the teachers is in the classroom trying to teach, and only 2 out of 25 students are listening, are you going to leave him there because the other 23 are just bad students?

Fizdale is an extremely bad head coach, He has to bring in a 100 motivational speakers, from x players, to actors, to rappers, to try and elevate his own team (only to see them get blown out by 40..what-a -joke) I'm waiting to for Bill clinton and Obama to visit the knick locker room..

That dude is FUGAZY fo-sure

I agree. That says something about the coach. What difference will THE BEST coach make though? Who do you think is the best coach available? What can he or she do with the roster as currently constructed and how far do you think he or she (yes, I said or she) can go?

He or she has to be a teacher of basketball. I personally think someone from college ranks would do well as they often have to implement their system and teach their system on a yearly basis. Being able to reach and teach is a hard job. I don’t believe Fizdale to be a teacher of basketball and young kids need to be taught and put in situations where they can succeed.

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Pay attention to the Huddles, half the players aren't even listening to him, They are having conversations between themselves or with the ref, and paying very little attention to Fiz and that clip board. I was sitting in a Bar and a total non basketball fan called that out

The stupid Idea that there is no other coach that would do better is assine thinking, that's like saying we should have never fired DON Nelson because there was no hot shot coach available at the time, just some assistant name JVG.

And that short term move to fire Nellie and bring in JVG set the franchise back. Grunfeld. was moving the team to a new era and Dolan panicked because Nellie wanted Ewing out. It was rumored A deal for Shaq could have been made. Funny you bring up Nellie because in a way his firing was a key moment that set off the chain that set off the next 20 years. Dolan choosing JVG over Grunfeld meant The team built for speed was coached by a man who pushed back. The blame game? BLame Layden but he inherited the mess caused by Ewings demise and contract. The cause of that mess was the culprit. Layden did not make good moves to correct it and he gets the tag. Dolan panicked . Fire Layden because garden was flat. Dolan panicked. Hire Isiah as starphuch. Bad move. Dolan dug in, league steps in. Dolan not down with Donnie. Think Donnie does 100mil contracts? Nope. Dolan gets Amare to be his star. Dolan panics. Dolan steps over Donnie to get Melo. Panic move.
Hired MIlls, barely on the job and he hires Phil while fans protest. Panic move. Dolan digs on KP and fires Phil. Bad timing. It did not work. This season is awful, what will Dolan do now? If you play chess one move at a time you may win the move but lose the match. Thanks Knicks1248 for demonstrating how that works. Firing Nellie fixed the problem but not the long term. We went to the finals in 99’ which was JVG survived with a 2 year 4mil extension Dolan did not want to eat. My theory is JVG should not have been given the to be EWings guardian. Ewing aged badly. Nellie saw it. takes balls.

You said all that to say what?

The Bottom line is Mills, Perry and FIZ have the worst winning percentage in the history of the franchise, Mills as President has the worst record in the NBA...why should we continue down this course?

Firing them would never be considered a panic move, it would be considered a wise move by 90% of fans and media...Nobody is buying what they are selling, because they have proving to be frauds.

If you dont think this losing is having a major impact on the development and growth of all our the young players, your nuts. Bringing RJ in to this culture is BAD BUSINESS.

You said all that to say what?

Your logic sucks.

Since you are not privy to what an interim plan would be, or longer term the rant after the Milwaukee game (knicks on the second of back to back, and missing the two best defensive players that Start) is a reaction. Rainman reaction.
What is not being disputed is the long term aspects of Mills past or his future.
I was thinking about collage of him and dolan with all those pictures of them with new coaches and dolan holding the basketball. I can't see another with Mills in the picture.

You so gloriously depicted the Nellie firing which the irony looms large.
One more time: "Playing the game of chess one move at a time won't win matches". So if you have not figured it out who makes the call to fire Fiz?
Its the owner. I don't trust his decision process. That's not exactly a ringing endorsement is it? Firing the coach won't solve this season. This is what many around here are saying. Milwaukee game was bad. night before we hung with Boston. The team did not tune out its coach, they failed to execute because we don't have a closer. Nalod said that the first week of the season.
THink it thru, look around. Nobody around here is happy. But we are being more real than you.