Marv wrote:i’m not actually bothering to read the posts in this thread. i’ll just say that once douchebag and douchebag brother give trade demands you jettison them immediately. ny front office executed it beautifully to save what we could but douchebag did indeed f**k us because u don’t just move on from a 23 year old all-star 7’3” 2-way unicorn. that set us back terribly and put us in this very tenuous position of now needing 2 a-list fa signings to make up for it.

I agree with this. But I also think there were FO failures starting with Phil and extending into current regime to show KP we were on the path to success and to get him committed. KP also deserves blame for sure. There are many teams with genuine interest to win who don't. Winning consistently is hard. It's a top to bottom effort and requires a lot of grit and excellence at all levels of the organization

I think there are a lot of members on this board who like the current FO primarily because they're not Phil. Of course, that doesn't mean the current FO is any good, just that it's different. It's entirely plausible we could be going form bad to worse; or that we're on the path to success -- time will tell

anrst wrote:i don't understand how some in the media (broussard, jalen rose) are saying knicks should still sign kd? are they being paid by rich kleinman to say this?

If they say no, the story ends there. They need to drag this story to have as much pointless coverage as possible.

Knicksfan wrote:

anrst wrote:i don't understand how some in the media (broussard, jalen rose) are saying knicks should still sign kd? are they being paid by rich kleinman to say this?

If they say no, the story ends there. They need to drag this story to have as much pointless coverage as possible.

True... and Also, KD getting hurt now is a big win for the Knicks. We are so lucky he did this now instead of nine months from now. Saved us from ourselves. And you're right, no one in the media wants to note that we got lucky and may not make big splashed after all.

SelltheteamDolan wrote:The Knicks but notably Phil Jackson ruined KP's desire to stay in NY. If you are trying to change the "culture", KP became exactly what has embodied this organization for years. He became a selfish player, a water downed version of Melo off the court. As a fan of 45 years, I'm glad they got rid of him. He could have morphed into a poison especially listening to that idiot brother of his.

If Phil ruined KP's desire fine. But Phil was let go and a new front office installed. KP won that power struggle. Fizdale visited him in Latvia before the season.

Then one quote from Fizdale: KP isn't doing any hard running yet
and one tweet from Janis: This is #1 BUll****

And now its unsalvagable?

I blame the Knicks their fair share, but KP has to answer for his own actions that led to this.

Vmart wrote:

SelltheteamDolan wrote:The Knicks but notably Phil Jackson ruined KP's desire to stay in NY. If you are trying to change the "culture", KP became exactly what has embodied this organization for years. He became a selfish player, a water downed version of Melo off the court. As a fan of 45 years, I'm glad they got rid of him. He could have morphed into a poison especially listening to that idiot brother of his.

Phil set this team on the right course of keeping picks and going with youth movement. To this date Mills has carried out his plan.

In the words of Next-Town-Brown, "You are delusional!"

Uptown wrote:

Vmart wrote:

SelltheteamDolan wrote:The Knicks but notably Phil Jackson ruined KP's desire to stay in NY. If you are trying to change the "culture", KP became exactly what has embodied this organization for years. He became a selfish player, a water downed version of Melo off the court. As a fan of 45 years, I'm glad they got rid of him. He could have morphed into a poison especially listening to that idiot brother of his.

Phil set this team on the right course of keeping picks and going with youth movement. To this date Mills has carried out his plan.

In the words of Next-Town-Brown, "You are delusional!"

ekstarks94 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Chandler wrote:What he didn't want was the dysfunction he was (rightfully) seeing in FO and CS. If we were losing but players were defending and passing and generally the team seemed to have a philosophy things may have been different.

After the coaching and FO change, what dysfunction was he seeing? We had a solid draft and were playing competitively early in the season in spite of the record. He has every right to trust or not trust the FO/CS, but holding Fiz and Perry accountable for the mess Jackson/Hornacek left isn't fair.

Again, if he didn't want to wait around for the current to prove themselves fine. But there's currently "dysfunction?" I don't know about that one.

The team played horribly, and it wasn't just a matter of youth. We talked one game (passing and defense), and played another. Our defense was worse than with Hornacek despite Mitch and the injection of youth and a supposedly defensive oriented coach (something that Hornacek was never called). We had no identity or philosophy

I have no doubt KP was getting a jaundiced view dating back to Phil and the Melodrama, but I also think he was smart enough to see that the new regime had its own set of dysfunction and at some point he just flipped.

I think there is a good argument to be made we got the best trade we could given the circumstance. My point is that the circumstances didn't need to be that way. We failed at creating an environment and vision he believed in. He definitely wanted to be in NYC and a Knick in the exactly opposite way of AD and the Pels.

There is definitely join blame on this and not all on KP (nor on FO)

Bingo..solid post

What FO is immune from dysfunction???

We have 2 recent regimes:

SA w/ Kawhi
GS w/KD

Both F'ed up their situations. Yes it is not the track record that we have but still F'ups.

KP is a primadonna....he wanted to be the man in every sense of the word....but you have to do it for more than 25 games.

Of course everyone has made mistakes. That by itself doesn't make the FO dysfunctional. Both of those organizations know what they're doing from top to bottom.

I think one thing that is rarely mentioned in that Phil came to an organization that was deeply dysfunctional and while he had lots of basketball wisdom he didn't have the energy, experience or knowledge about how to make an organization functional. Contrast that with Pat Riley who came to **** shows here and in Miami and got the organization "organized". You can make similar arguments for Jerry West. I know Triple Threat often makes the point about Phil not being trained for GM etc. I don't buy that 100% because the same could be said for Riley or West. The difference was they had the aptitude to learn those new roles, whereas Phil failed at that

I'm a Knicks fan for over 50 years and of course hope this FO is different and will build on success and minimize their mistakes. Having said that, I am concerned. I see a lot of character traits that really trouble me beginning with a big inconsistency between what they profess and what they do. They say they're going to pass and defend. Nope. We play ISO and are worse on D. They say they're going to build through the draft (and actually showed some promise there). Now it seems like our path has to be maxed out super stars and rumors of trading our youth and picks for AD.

None of this is confidence inspiring in my book. And the current plan seems desperate. We're grabbing at KD or whoever else to be a savior the same way we grabbed at Phil

Chandler wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

Welpee wrote:

Chandler wrote:What he didn't want was the dysfunction he was (rightfully) seeing in FO and CS. If we were losing but players were defending and passing and generally the team seemed to have a philosophy things may have been different.

After the coaching and FO change, what dysfunction was he seeing? We had a solid draft and were playing competitively early in the season in spite of the record. He has every right to trust or not trust the FO/CS, but holding Fiz and Perry accountable for the mess Jackson/Hornacek left isn't fair.

Again, if he didn't want to wait around for the current to prove themselves fine. But there's currently "dysfunction?" I don't know about that one.

The team played horribly, and it wasn't just a matter of youth. We talked one game (passing and defense), and played another. Our defense was worse than with Hornacek despite Mitch and the injection of youth and a supposedly defensive oriented coach (something that Hornacek was never called). We had no identity or philosophy

I have no doubt KP was getting a jaundiced view dating back to Phil and the Melodrama, but I also think he was smart enough to see that the new regime had its own set of dysfunction and at some point he just flipped.

I think there is a good argument to be made we got the best trade we could given the circumstance. My point is that the circumstances didn't need to be that way. We failed at creating an environment and vision he believed in. He definitely wanted to be in NYC and a Knick in the exactly opposite way of AD and the Pels.

There is definitely join blame on this and not all on KP (nor on FO)

Bingo..solid post

What FO is immune from dysfunction???

We have 2 recent regimes:

SA w/ Kawhi
GS w/KD

Both F'ed up their situations. Yes it is not the track record that we have but still F'ups.

KP is a primadonna....he wanted to be the man in every sense of the word....but you have to do it for more than 25 games.

Of course everyone has made mistakes. That by itself doesn't make the FO dysfunctional. Both of those organizations know what they're doing from top to bottom.

I think one thing that is rarely mentioned in that Phil came to an organization that was deeply dysfunctional and while he had lots of basketball wisdom he didn't have the energy, experience or knowledge about how to make an organization functional. Contrast that with Pat Riley who came to **** shows here and in Miami and got the organization "organized". You can make similar arguments for Jerry West. I know Triple Threat often makes the point about Phil not being trained for GM etc. I don't buy that 100% because the same could be said for Riley or West. The difference was they had the aptitude to learn those new roles, whereas Phil failed at that

I'm a Knicks fan for over 50 years and of course hope this FO is different and will build on success and minimize their mistakes. Having said that, I am concerned. I see a lot of character traits that really trouble me beginning with a big inconsistency between what they profess and what they do. They say they're going to pass and defend. Nope. We play ISO and are worse on D. They say they're going to build through the draft (and actually showed some promise there). Now it seems like our path has to be maxed out super stars and rumors of trading our youth and picks for AD.

None of this is confidence inspiring in my book. And the current plan seems desperate. We're grabbing at KD or whoever else to be a savior the same way we grabbed at Phil

At end of the day it is a calculated risk...not desperation...huge difference...do we have to make a move...No.....

This a gamble....if Danny Ainge did this folks would say Danny is taking a calced risk....we do it and its a fools errand.

Irving is going the Nets or the lakers. And here we are hoping to max out an injured super star.

What a disgrace. No excuses. Back to the worse franchise in all of sports.