ESOMKnicks wrote:It could very well be that other teams were not offering anything of value for KP. The logic is simple: a fully healthy KP can be a top 5 player in the NBA whom the Knicks would not trade for anything, and if they are considering trading him, this means they know something bad about his health. And Cuban may have been the only one willing to take the risk eyes-closed. But even if you believe that KP comes back at, say, only 80% of what he was, I'd think he should worth more than protected firsts, absolution from bad contracts and an unwanted young player. So, I am still not convinced that Mills/Perry got the best possible deal here. Unless they really know that KP is going to regress substantially from his injury.

Yeah, you got the point. If Mills wanted to reset everything then very few teams could pull it off and absorb his contracts suddenly. If they knew KP was available then of course they would make rooms to trade at offseason. It would max the benifit of Knicks so it doesn't make sense Mills does it now, on paper.

But Mills is very smart and he is a savvy player in politicial games. If he lived in Westeros, I bet he would be one of very few who could survive until the end of the story.

So my guess is that he didn't want to give any time to KP camp to counter-punch. Phil Jackson took his time to shop KP so it gave Janis time to go around doing interviews, and they even went to the office of Unions once. At the end fans and media turned on him and he was fired.

This is why Mills is savvy. This kind of deal has to have the approval coming from Dolan. He pulled the trigger when he got the nod. He knew Dolan could change his mind anytime like he extended the contract of Phil Jackson then fired him just 3 days after draft. Mills knew his boss so he would not give him time to change his heart. Of course, it is just my guess.

nyknickzingis wrote:
Knicks get as many assets as possible for KP
Hoping they can flip possibly three picks for AD

Now Knicks are after AD - they offering Dallas two picks and possibly their own 2019 pick.
Then summer they try to sign Kyrie or Durant to play with AD.

Knicks thinking bigger than KP. KP figures this out and forces his way to an ideal situation to Dallas. This is all business. Once KP was offered for AD, his people were definitely contacted to gage interest in his desire to sign a longterm contract in New Orléans. Once KP knew Ny was no longer valuing him as their guy, he forced a trade to Dallas.

Ian Begley even writes how New Orleans didn’t want KP becuse they felt he wasn’t going to stay with them. How would they know? From KPs camp. Once KPs camp knew he was being shopped for AD, that’s the straw that broke the camels back.

In this article, Ian Begley clearly stated

But multiple teams interested in making an offer for Porzingis said that they were unable to do so before New York traded Porzingis to Dallas, league sources said.

It seems Mills could do better but somehow he had to do it now. Don't know why. Maybe it is just like what you assumed. He needed the picks now to get AD. Who knows? But we will know after the deadline.

mlby1215 wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:
Knicks get as many assets as possible for KP
Hoping they can flip possibly three picks for AD

Now Knicks are after AD - they offering Dallas two picks and possibly their own 2019 pick.
Then summer they try to sign Kyrie or Durant to play with AD.

Knicks thinking bigger than KP. KP figures this out and forces his way to an ideal situation to Dallas. This is all business. Once KP was offered for AD, his people were definitely contacted to gage interest in his desire to sign a longterm contract in New Orléans. Once KP knew Ny was no longer valuing him as their guy, he forced a trade to Dallas.

Ian Begley even writes how New Orleans didn’t want KP becuse they felt he wasn’t going to stay with them. How would they know? From KPs camp. Once KPs camp knew he was being shopped for AD, that’s the straw that broke the camels back.

In this article, Ian Begley clearly stated

But multiple teams interested in making an offer for Porzingis said that they were unable to do so before New York traded Porzingis to Dallas, league sources said.

It seems Mills could do better but somehow he had to do it now. Don't know why. Maybe it is just like what you assumed. He needed the picks now to get AD. Who knows? But we will know after the deadline.

nyknickzingis wrote:KP says to fans stay woke
He’s clearly implying the BS that the NY front office put out there is not true

In my humble outsider opinion

Knicks have been told that they will be high on a list if there is a team up scenario
They like Anthony Davis more than KP
They try to deal THj to create this super team
No one really wanting to play ball unless KP attached to THJ and CLee

The Knicks realize they can’t get AD with KP anyway, because KP has a QO card to play with.
Once KP finds out he’s being offered for AD
He loses it and says F this I’m outta here

Knicks get as many assets as possible for KP
Hoping they can flip possibly three picks for AD

Now Knicks are after AD - they offering Dallas two picks and possibly their own 2019 pick.
Then summer they try to sign Kyrie or Durant to play with AD.

Knicks thinking bigger than KP. KP figures this out and forces his way to an ideal situation to Dallas. This is all business. Once KP was offered for AD, his people were definitely contacted to gage interest in his desire to sign a longterm contract in New Orléans. Once KP knew Ny was no longer valuing him as their guy, he forced a trade to Dallas.

Ian Begley even writes how New Orleans didn’t want KP becuse they felt he wasn’t going to stay with them. How would they know? From KPs camp. Once KPs camp knew he was being shopped for AD, that’s the straw that broke the camels back.

Given some of the top FAs are two way players, it may not be a horrible idea to try and pair KD-AD or KD-KL add a guard like Rubio to chase a ring and may be Tony Parker. AD only wants to play in LA so I am not sure why the FO would pull this move to get him. But they should like AD better than KP, he is a superior player. The problem is in the thinking clearing cap space means any of the top 3-4 will come here: KD, KL, KT or AD by trade

We will probably go after the second tier players and overpay just like we did with Melo and Amare. Of those I would like Butler or Kemba, but don't want Kyrie or Boogie. But none of these guys will make chasing out KP worth it.

Again, I have no idea if KP got passed because he read on the block or if his brother and him decided they were too good for NY before anyone ever tried to trade him. The timing of these things seems fuzzy at this time.

mlby1215 wrote:

Lets look at the basic of trading, any trading.

1. More buyers lead to more demand, in general, then lead to higher price.
2. More sellers lead to more supply, in general, then lead to lower price.
3. The longer time it takes, the more flexibility a team has to make a package another side would want.
4. The longer time it takes, the infomation both side would get which may or may not lead to higher (or lower price).

But Perry said they have been searching a deal for months, right? It seems one of them must be dishonest, or they are just covering for their boss.

Second, how do I know Knicks didn't do enough to ask for a better deal? Because the trade caught a lot of teams by surprise.

"They absolutely did not do due diligence," one source said.

I have to ask why do we have to trade away KP now?

Of course the exec felt confused, because it is not a trade, it is power struggle.

You are ignoring the most critical issue.

Where will Zinger sign an extension?

Dallas DOES NOT trade for Zinger without a private locked in guarantee of signing an extension. The reason it's not public now is to avoid tampering charges( Everyone tampers all the time) Other GMs are upset because they were not given the opportunity to LOWBALL the Knicks further.

Any other offer from a non Dallas team would likely have been worse. Because it would be a pure rental situation over a team getting a Zinger extension.

Once a player in this situation picks a specific team, then the original drafting team needs to weigh out the few trade options ( guaranteed contract and salary matching makes trade options even more limited) Will Zinger go to a gutted team? No. So that's another limitation.

If someone wants to say this was not a value deal, I'd agree.

But the system makes it so it's a non value deal OR NO DEAL AT ALL OR AN EVEN WORSE DEAL FROM ANOTHER TEAM

As for "due diligence", these front office guys TALK ALL THE TIME, EVERYDAY. Every player gets talked about in trade in every situation. Perry ALREADY KNEW the market for Zinger because he's constantly talking to all teams already. He's not going to want to send Zinger East, so that's another limitation.

Due diligence is DONE ALL THE TIME, EVERY MINUTE, ALL YEAR LONG.

Zinger says, I won't sign an extension to Teams X, Y and Z. Then those places are non viable for any kind of most value possible ( did not say best overall value)

Zinger says I won't sign an extension ( thus lowering the value of the trade) if Players X or Y or Z from said team aren't there ( Kobe did this with the Bulls, saying if Luol Deng was traded, he didn't want to go there, but Deng would need to be traded to get Kobe in the first place. )

Does anyone think Sam Presti wanted to trade Harden for Martin, Lamb and a first? Well if Harden will only sign an extension with the Rockets, what options does he have left?

Luxury tax
Limited talent pool restricted by height
Salary matching
Guaranteed contracts
Scarcity of impact players
Zero market inefficiencies

The discussion of supply and demand in general terms and then in context to how it's usually applied against the NBA marketplace is insane.

If Beck is writing this, he's intentionally click baiting because he hopes most readers are just plain incapable of understanding the actual NBA marketplace. ( He's probably right that they can't...)

Zinger, like most other guys in his situation, have a lot of power to decide where he goes. The idea that Dallas could be hanging in the wind is just plain crazy. Dallas doesn't cap lock themselves for an iffy answer from Zinger on an extension.

mlby1215 wrote:

martin wrote:Your response is complete fluff and not based on any type of reality. I don’t need you to spin the Trade Checker but you have completely skirted any type of direct response.

What direct response do you want other than some exec suddenly coming up and say "Yeah I wanted to trade away our player ABC to get KP but Steve Mills refused. Oh btw if ABC you are reading it please don't be mad. KP is better than you."?

I mean, just the timing of it would prove that there should have been something. A week before deadline. and then again, he could have traded him in off-season, right?

I fail to see how you can make this so complicated.

If Zinger says I will only sign an extension with Dallas, then the Mavericks are the team with the most to trade and give the best RELATIVE VALUE the Knicks will get anywhere. It won't be a great deal ( it wasn't) but it was the best available. Why was it the best available? Because Zinger then becomes a rental to any other team, who will only pay a rental price.

Dallas can't bank on an offseason trade happening, so the assets they have right now, MIGHT NOT BE THERE IN THE OFFSEASON. The Knicks waiting risk getting even less.

At some point, a team "locks in" in terms of it's cap. For a team like OKC, when they traded for Kendrick Perkins and gave him an extension, that was locking into that roster, there was too much money tied up to guys they needed. Warriors locked in with Durant. Killed all their other flexibility.

Why would any non Dallas team trade anything of value for an injured guy with a **** heel brother for an agent who only wants to play in Dallas?

Of course non Dallas GM's are miffed, they DIDN'T GET THE CHANCE TO OFFER THE KNICKS A PILE OF DOGSHIT.

Denver traded Melo to the Knicks. The first offer by Donnie Walsh and he held it long, was Wilson Chandler and a first round pick. Melo would only resign in NY, so other teams would only pay a rental price, so Walsh ONLY HAD TO BEAT THE RENTAL PRICE.

Dennis Smith Jr might not be there to trade this offseason. Matthews and DJordan would not be expiring contracts for them. Not to use to shed THJr and Lee. Those first round picks might not be there. Dallas has to make the best trades it can given the time and place, they can't sit still HOPING Zinger will be traded to them. They have no guarantee of this. They need to trade for him to GET HIS BIRD RIGHTS. So they can go over the cap to resign him.

Teams are willing to beat the rental price FOR SAID PLAYERS BIRD RIGHTS. Which only matters to a team where the player will agree privately to sign a long term extension. "Mirror Test" this. If the Knicks wanted to trade for Zinger and knew he only would resign an extension in Dallas, what would you want the team to offer for him? Not much at all.

You turned checkers into chess, then into Candyland. I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

The Knicks and Perry didn't hang up the phone on GMs calling. They knew any non Dallas offer would be LOW BALL SHIT. IF you think this deal is ****, fine, but any other deal WOULD BE SHITTIER.

What the **** are you talking about man? Jesus, get a drink. Pour some bourbon, man.

Kyrie added to Boston, yet two years into this, they still are where they were the day they got Kyrie. A contender but not a winner.

Durant went to a GST team already winning titles

His old team traded for Paul George and remains where they were with Durant.

Lebron, best player of this era, maybe top 3 all time, goes to the Lakers and they aren’t in the playoffs if the playoffs began today

The biggest thing is all those teams are still better positioned to make a run for a FA like Durant or Kyrie because they didn’t trade away their best young talent

Boston has Tatum.
Lakers have Ball, Ingram, Kuzma.
Golden state drafted their championship core of Curry, Klay, DG.
OKc drafted Westbrook still rely on him.

When James went back to CLe as a free agent in 2014, a franchise level all star Kyrie was already drafted and in place. They used the lottery pick to get another all star. This in my opinion is what we were in position to do. We had an all star in KP. A max slot for Durant or Kyrie. And say we didn’t get Zion, we would use the draft pick and THJ for a trade to bring in ‘another established star to play with KP and Durant.

The two max FA plan only worked for Miami in 2010.
Yet even then, they kept their franchise all star in Wade and opened up two max slots around him

I don’t know - but history shows when you use capspace you are best served to use it around your drafted proven established franchise player. This was the Knicks plan as of seasons start. It was a solid plan. What changed their mind, IDK. What they are aiming for has never been done before. I can’t think of a single time one or two max players went to a team that had one of the worst records in the league and no established young in prime all star level franchise player. Closest would be Lebron last summer but even then he knew there was Ball, Ingram, Kuzma to play with, to trade for AD and most importantly Magic recruiting you vs Mills/Perry. Does anyone think Mills would be able to sign a major name like Magic did?

TripleThreat wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:

martin wrote:Your response is complete fluff and not based on any type of reality. I don’t need you to spin the Trade Checker but you have completely skirted any type of direct response.

What direct response do you want other than some exec suddenly coming up and say "Yeah I wanted to trade away our player ABC to get KP but Steve Mills refused. Oh btw if ABC you are reading it please don't be mad. KP is better than you."?

I mean, just the timing of it would prove that there should have been something. A week before deadline. and then again, he could have traded him in off-season, right?

I fail to see how you can make this so complicated.

If Zinger says I will only sign an extension with Dallas, then the Mavericks are the team with the most to trade and give the best RELATIVE VALUE the Knicks will get anywhere. It won't be a great deal ( it wasn't) but it was the best available. Why was it the best available? Because Zinger then becomes a rental to any other team, who will only pay a rental price.

Dallas can't bank on an offseason trade happening, so the assets they have right now, MIGHT NOT BE THERE IN THE OFFSEASON. The Knicks waiting risk getting even less.

At some point, a team "locks in" in terms of it's cap. For a team like OKC, when they traded for Kendrick Perkins and gave him an extension, that was locking into that roster, there was too much money tied up to guys they needed. Warriors locked in with Durant. Killed all their other flexibility.

Why would any non Dallas team trade anything of value for an injured guy with a **** heel brother for an agent who only wants to play in Dallas?

Of course non Dallas GM's are miffed, they DIDN'T GET THE CHANCE TO OFFER THE KNICKS A PILE OF DOGSHIT.

Denver traded Melo to the Knicks. The first offer by Donnie Walsh and he held it long, was Wilson Chandler and a first round pick. Melo would only resign in NY, so other teams would only pay a rental price, so Walsh ONLY HAD TO BEAT THE RENTAL PRICE.

Dennis Smith Jr might not be there to trade this offseason. Matthews and DJordan would not be expiring contracts for them. Not to use to shed THJr and Lee. Those first round picks might not be there. Dallas has to make the best trades it can given the time and place, they can't sit still HOPING Zinger will be traded to them. They have no guarantee of this. They need to trade for him to GET HIS BIRD RIGHTS. So they can go over the cap to resign him.

Teams are willing to beat the rental price FOR SAID PLAYERS BIRD RIGHTS. Which only matters to a team where the player will agree privately to sign a long term extension. "Mirror Test" this. If the Knicks wanted to trade for Zinger and knew he only would resign an extension in Dallas, what would you want the team to offer for him? Not much at all.

You turned checkers into chess, then into Candyland. I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

The Knicks and Perry didn't hang up the phone on GMs calling. They knew any non Dallas offer would be LOW BALL SHIT. IF you think this deal is ****, fine, but any other deal WOULD BE SHITTIER.

What the **** are you talking about man? Jesus, get a drink. Pour some bourbon, man.

Your whole breakdown is based on KP saying he would only play in Dallas and Dallas being aware of it.
Is that based on fact or just your guess? And why did Dallas give up real assets to get KP if they already knew he wouldn't sign anywhere else? Why wouldn't they lowball us, since in your scenario we have zero leverage?

martin wrote:mlby1215, I had challenged you on this before: draw up some likey scenarios where the Knicks could have gotten cap relief and picks/low contracts from other teams. Here is a good starting point:

https://knicksfilmschool.com/2019/02/03/did-the-knicks-do-their-due-diligence-on-the-kp-trade/

Well I will take time to read it. Reply later.

meloshouldgo wrote:

martin wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:KP says to fans stay woke
He’s clearly implying the BS that the NY front office put out there is not true

In my humble outsider opinion

Knicks have been told that they will be high on a list if there is a team up scenario
They like Anthony Davis more than KP
They try to deal THj to create this super team
No one really wanting to play ball unless KP attached to THJ and CLee

The Knicks realize they can’t get AD with KP anyway, because KP has a QO card to play with.
Once KP finds out he’s being offered for AD
He loses it and says F this I’m outta here

Knicks get as many assets as possible for KP
Hoping they can flip possibly three picks for AD

Now Knicks are after AD - they offering Dallas two picks and possibly their own 2019 pick.
Then summer they try to sign Kyrie or Durant to play with AD.

Knicks thinking bigger than KP. KP figures this out and forces his way to an ideal situation to Dallas. This is all business. Once KP was offered for AD, his people were definitely contacted to gage interest in his desire to sign a longterm contract in New Orléans. Once KP knew Ny was no longer valuing him as their guy, he forced a trade to Dallas.

Ian Begley even writes how New Orleans didn’t want KP becuse they felt he wasn’t going to stay with them. How would they know? From KPs camp. Once KPs camp knew he was being shopped for AD, that’s the straw that broke the camels back.

Given some of the top FAs are two way players, it may not be a horrible idea to try and pair KD-AD or KD-KL add a guard like Rubio to chase a ring and may be Tony Parker. AD only wants to play in LA so I am not sure why the FO would pull this move to get him. But they should like AD better than KP, he is a superior player. The problem is in the thinking clearing cap space means any of the top 3-4 will come here: KD, KL, KT or AD by trade

We will probably go after the second tier players and overpay just like we did with Melo and Amare. Of those I would like Butler or Kemba, but don't want Kyrie or Boogie. But none of these guys will make chasing out KP worth it.

Again, I have no idea if KP got passed because he read on the block or if his brother and him decided they were too good for NY before anyone ever tried to trade him. The timing of these things seems fuzzy at this time.

Parker is signed thru next year and do you really think Rubio signing for min?

Can we not give him the MLE or a large part of it? Should be close to 9M?
Also thought we would have at least 9M in cap after signing 2 max if we don't sign anyone else.
Teague has a team option, Rubio, Rondo, Beverly and Temple are all UFAs
Green and Reezy among available 2 guards and Tyreke. Redick is too old but still worth a look ti round out a contending roster
Damarre Carrol, Thad Young, Mirotic etc. are available forwards

I am only looking at players that won't demand a 15+ M contract or may be willing to be a ring chaser.

You shouldn't be asking me if it is possible. Go look it up and inform yourself and then make some suggestions as to what the Knicks can do and what Rubio and the rest will do.